Noob tactician: Creating chanced through high pressing/high possession with a poor team!

[oyz]

Hi,

Intro - tactical noob disclaimer!

Just to be honest here. I have player Football Manger in between for years. But I have been one of those who usually watches highlights only. I usually reviewed my squad, identified my best players and strengths, decided for a general type of strategy and formation - and searched around for a tactic to use... I found most joy in the progression of seasons, developing youth players, expanding the club and so on. Now I wanted to do something different...

The challenge!

I have taken over a poor team far down in the level 6 of english football. We were in february, and my team is in the relegation zone. No one can blame them for underachieving. They are just where they were expected to be - and have a thin senior squad, low quality players, the 4th lowest wage budget (which is already maxed out) and no tranfer funds.

At my arrival they were on a 10-match run without wins. They had 3 draws and had scored 3 times in that period. They played a kind of 451-tactic with wingers and a rather poor target man striker. He had 3 goals in 28 appearances - and was the only striker...

No funds and maximized wage budget meant little scope for getting many players in, although I have secured a couple of decent loan players, and added another striker - after releasing two players deemed not needed.

Thinking so far

At first I tried to build a counter-attacking strategy, reading among other things the art of counter-attacking thread here. I abandoned that early because of two main reasons. My defenders are a weak bunch of players (they are the worst team in the league for both heading, jumping, marking and strength!). I would not fancy my chances inviting pressure and risk lots of long passed into the box. They are, however, fairly quick - so I believe I can guard reasonably well against runs behind my defense line and counter-attacks. Secondly I saw no path to goal playing as such. With my new loaned players I now possess a fairly decent midfield, with good passing and playmaker abilities. They are also a hard-working group of players, relatively speaking....

All of this meant that I wanted to try to save myself from relegation through a possession based game. I also wanted to defend high up the pitch to limit my defensive hopelessness, and also to find a path to goals hoping to catch my opponents off-guard through high pressing.

This has worked reasonable well defensively the last games. I concede less than 1 goal per game, which is good progress. There is still a distinct lack of goals, though. Which is worrying. It's been mostly draws and narrow losses.

my players

My squad is rather small, so there is few players to chose from. My backups are mostly young lads without much to offer - so this is how I basically view my squad;

GK (2 star): Inexperinced and very average guy. Decent reflexes and handling, poor aerial reach , communication and command of area.

DL (2,5 star): Strengths: Good speed, tackling and team work - poor marking and jumping. Best role: Full back

DR (3 star): Strengths: Speed, two-footed, work rate - poor strength, marking and tackling. Best role: Full back

DC (3 star): Strengths: natural fitness, tackling, average+ pace - poor strength, poor marking, poor work rate. Best role: Ltd Def

DC (1,5 star): Strengths: Positioning, determination, marking and tackling - poor strength, heading and concentration: Best role: Central defender

DC (1 star): Strength: Work rate, aggression and tackling - poor jumping, strength, marking: Best role: Central defender

DM (3 star): Strenghts. Acceleration, Stamina, Work Rate og Teamwork - poor strength, jumping, all kind of technical things... Best role: Ball winning midfielder.

MC (3,5 star): Strengths: Teamwork, Decisions, Passing, Speed and Jumping - poor positioning. Best role: Central Midfielder / Playermaker

MC (3,5 star): Strengths: Stamina, Determination and decent passing - little speed, poor marking. Best role: Box-to-box, ball-winner, Central Midfielder

MC (3,5 star): Strengths: My most creative player, good passing, and vision - poor positioning and slow. Best role: Advanced Playmaker / Central Midfielder

ML/AML/MC (2,5 star): Strengths: Decent technique, passing and vision for this level, determination and aggression. Low stamina and strenght, and fairly slow: Best role: Winger/Defensive winger.

MR/AMR (3,5 star): My "star player": Strengths: Speed, work rate, team work and crossing - poor passing- Best role: Winger

MC/AMC/ST (1,5 star): Good stamina, technique and vision - poor decisions, jumping, strength Best role: Advanded Playmarker / Deep Lying Forward/Poacher

ST (2 star): Strength, work rate and first touch, jumping - poor pace, heading and passing: Best role: Target Man

I show my two strikers here

Tactical setup

Mentality: Counter (seems to balance things better than control or standard)

Team shape: Fluid

Team instructions: Retain possession, Play narrower, Use Offside Trap, Much higher defensive line, Higher Tempo, Close Down Much More.

This is all bit of a mess, trying to adjust from what I have seen in the matches.

- To get pressure on opposition I felt it was more effective to play my wide men up in the AM band.

- I have tried to play just one striker, having one AMC but this seemed to isolate my striker to much.

How I concede, last five goals

1.

2. Corner

3. Throw-in headed to goal:

4. Cross, two of my players lose the header against one opposition, no one follow the players running in behind:

5. Penalty - a long ball behind my high line - my right back kicks down the opposition striker

But generally I feel that my defensive plan works fairly well.

Help needed

The how we score goals part is more or less not available (the last two both coming from corner kicks).

So I need to score more goals.

Take my last game - a 0-0 draw.

I have 63 % possession

7-4 Shots (2-1 on target) (5 of my shots - 1 of theirs - come from inside the box).

I had 1 clear cut chance - opposition only one half chance.

My passing seems to mostly be passes down the flanks, and then much from side to side from about 30-40 meters out.

Hopefully there is some advice here - because I don't know that I'm doing!

What would you try here?

[Dr. Hook]

Why are you using the retain possession shout?

[oyz]

Why are you using the retain possession shout?

Well, I don't have a very strong reasoning for it. I can only explain the train of thoughts leading me there.

It really started when I was still thinking that counter-attacking football was my path to avoid relegation. But as my team just didn't cope well when inviting opposition in - I started to take counter off, increase defensive line and use retain possession, just to try to get some breathing space. Then it just followed along as I started there to build a possession based style. I felt it would be risky to take it off, because even with shorter passing I felt my team tried to much semi-long passes and lost possession. I might be far off here, but I believed that retain possession would help me playing safer passing options.

But as I write this, it seems a bit out of place to have it on while I am complaining about the lack of attacking penetration. In a way, I think this is a part of the starting point for this style I am trying - to defend by having possession. So it is really a part of my defensive strategy.

[Dr. Hook]

It's good to think of those things- retain possession is something that I think a lot of people (including myself at one point) have not used properly. It seems as if it is something you want to create a possession style, but what it actually does in many cases is create the kind of problem you are experiencing where you get the ball into the other half then pass it around the midfield. They do play it safely, but quite often it is too safely at the expense of creating chances or opening up a defense. What you might try instead, if you find that even with shorter passing your guys are giving it away is take your tempo down some. You have a higher tempo which will result in hurried passes, and you have tried to mitigate it by using retain possession- except that you have now handcuffed your players from attempting moderately risky passes which will give you the options you are looking to have. I would suggest taking off retain, and dropping your tempo a notch and see how she goes.

As an alternative, you can use retain as your team instruction if you like what it is doing for you in most areas, and the players that you need to make things happen just adjust their individual instructions to play more risky passes.

[oyz]

I tried to watch for the difference between retain possession on and off - playing the first part of the first half with in on - then off.

0-22 minutes (with retain possession on)

23-45 minutes (with retain possession off)

Hard to see a much of a difference. While looking at it unfold I got the sense that they took more long shots (hopeless ones, most often) more with retain possession turned off. With it turned on, I felt they would be more likely to turn backwards and sidewards. Hard to be very conclusive watching the analysis. When it comes to shots though, it was 4 shots in both parts of the first half. With retain possession off, three of those where from 20-25 meters - while only one from outside the box when it was turned on. Of course too short timespan to make much out of it. More of an anecdote. Possession percentage was pretty much the same througout.

Apart from than - I can happily say that I got my first victory in this match. Finally. 1-0. The goal again not from open play, but in the aftermath of a corner.

Stats:

Possession 62 - 38

Shots: 15-7

On Target: 5-0

Clear Cut Chances: 0-1

Half Chances: 1-1

Defensively fairly sound again. Offside trap and last-ditch tackles important to avoid chances against. Their biggest chance come from a set piece (throw in).

Attacking play still rather bad. Misses the movement from the attackers to get away from their defenders. Sooner or later you'll have to play through the defense to score, even in possession-based football :-)

EDIT: Posted this before the last reply. The only change here was the retain possession. Did not change tempo. It seems like a sensible idea to try those things. I think I'll first try to give personal instructions to some of my more visionary qualified players, and let the others keep playing it as safe as possibly.

[oyz]

Well. Another game - we took quite a beating - playing away against the league leader.

0-3 after 20 minutes - in a game that felt quite even in terms of play. But they scored on their first corner, their first cross into the ball and then from another set piece. They had 4 shots, 3 on target, 1 clear cut chance, 0 half chance - and 3 goals. One of those games.

So not too easy to see if my move (i went with normal tempo and retain possession off), had any positive effect. I was also against a formation I rarely see in this league, a 433 (3xMC and 3xFC) - so comparing is not always easy. I clicked retain possession again after 0-3, and the rest of the first half was uneventful, but that could just be them taking off the gas. They were stille the best team. I still created very little until one of my many long shots finally went in towards the end. Same stuff happening in terms of attacking though. You pass it along well until you try to reach your strikes. Lack of movement, and everytime there is a through ball - it seems to be an offside. They gave away a lot of room on the flanks, leading to quite a lot of crosses. Not 1 out of 15 was completed. So it was unhelpful for the most part.

Then the game took a strange turn, without me doing much else than lowering the defensive line in the second half. First, after 78 minutes - one of those crosses actually came to my striker who hit the target. Hope was rising, and after 90 minutes we put the ball into the net again - loud cheers in the living room - and then an offside decision :-(

One question related to meeting such a 433. On more than one occassion - none of my fullbacks or midfielders cared that they kept three men forward, against two of my central defenders. Is that just them being not the brightest footballers, or is it something in my settings I should have done to keep them from leaving my central defenders outnumbered?

[Jean0987654321]

I think your problem has more to do with the Retain Possession TI. First of all, it is pretty tough to get a attack in because it is through the two strikers and only through the two strikers. The FBs are in support due to setting their roles to auto and using the counter mentality. The Wingers will whip in an early cross but that can easily be negated because there's only two guys in the box. The AP (s) will be slightly outside the box but, I really do think he needs to be in it. So, adjust the roles of the left winger to IF (a). Make one or even two of the fullbacks have an attack dury...

[loklokno123]

As an alternative, you can use retain as your team instruction if you like what it is doing for you in most areas, and the players that you need to make things happen just adjust their individual instructions to play more risky passes.

I like this alternative more than taking off RP shouts

[Dr. Hook]

I like this alternative more than taking off RP shouts

There are so many ways to go about things in FM which is what makes it fun for me, but also a challenge to figure out and provide timely advice to people who are struggling. But yes, it is always worth remembering that individual players can be tweaked within larger systems to do specific things that your overall strategy might not allow for.

[Lordluap]

I tried to watch for the difference between retain possession on and off - playing the first part of the first half with in on - then off.

0-22 minutes (with retain possession on)

23-45 minutes (with retain possession off)

Hard to see a much of a difference. While looking at it unfold I got the sense that they took more long shots (hopeless ones, most often) more with retain possession turned off. With it turned on, I felt they would be more likely to turn backwards and sidewards. Hard to be very conclusive watching the analysis. When it comes to shots though, it was 4 shots in both parts of the first half. With retain possession off, three of those where from 20-25 meters - while only one from outside the box when it was turned on. Of course too short timespan to make much out of it. More of an anecdote. Possession percentage was pretty much the same througout.

Apart from than - I can happily say that I got my first victory in this match. Finally. 1-0. The goal again not from open play, but in the aftermath of a corner.

Stats:

Possession 62 - 38

Shots: 15-7

On Target: 5-0

Clear Cut Chances: 0-1

Half Chances: 1-1

Defensively fairly sound again. Offside trap and last-ditch tackles important to avoid chances against. Their biggest chance come from a set piece (throw in).

Attacking play still rather bad. Misses the movement from the attackers to get away from their defenders. Sooner or later you'll have to play through the defense to score, even in possession-based football :-)

EDIT: Posted this before the last reply. The only change here was the retain possession. Did not change tempo. It seems like a sensible idea to try those things. I think I'll first try to give personal instructions to some of my more visionary qualified players, and let the others keep playing it as safe as possibly.

As an aside... in the second passing pic, the orange line from number 5, from the touchline, 3rd in from top right corner, curling into box... how does that happen?!

[Marsupian]

As an aside... in the second passing pic, the orange line from number 5, from the touchline, 3rd in from top right corner, curling into box... how does that happen?!

It's probably a deflection.

[oyz]

Hi folks.

Thanks for all advice. The season has now passed - and I saved myself from relegation, barely - but with one game left to play. It as a struggle all the way, so no break-through. But we grinded out a few good results against medium teams.

My strategy has been through some changes.

- Retain possession is turned off, after the discussion here.

- My defensive line is changed from much higher to slightly higher. This in an attempt to draw the opposition a little bit out, so that there is a bit room in behind the,.

- My AMR has been turned into a IF as suggested here. How this works is that both my wide attacking players are moving into the center of the pitch. This has some advanteges, my players closer together, and it opens up space on the flanks.

- To utilize that, my fullbacks has changed into wing back roles (support) (also suggested by Jean0987654321 here). It does look more suspicious defensively This however all leads to me controlling possession very well - although it still lack attacking punch. That might be down to my attackers being quite poor for this level. I dominate games, both in terms om possession, shots and chances.

Though, not so easily in terms of goals. Now, I could complain about the unfairness of the match engine or something. But in reality it resembles a pattern I have seen in my real life favourite club. An amibitous style of playing, relying on possession, clever passing, triangles and pass-and-move. This all looks very nice, but you need really high quality players and relations to make it work. The end result is often that same lack of penetration that I regularly see here, and the opposition chances - with lots more space to work in - is perhaps fewer, but of higher quality.

But it does feel like a struggle - when this feels like the typical scenario (I, Bath, lost this game 0-1).

I have a few things to do before next season.

- I really have to get a decent striker, with reasonable off the ball skill and finishing (it would be helpful to not have PPM about long shots, which they never succeed with).

- I have to take a look at my wide men. Particularly the AMR, which on paper is one of my better player - but does not fit the inside forward role (and did not play very well with neither that nor the winger role).

- I want to see how my AML will work with other roles.

- I need at least one stronger central defender.

- Ideally I should upgrade my wing backs, because they turn very important it seems, as they now needs to be my wide options also in the attacking phase.

It's probably a deflection.

I looked at the reply. It doesn't really take the path indicated on the map. It is a throw in that changes direction (slightly, and almost on the edge of the box, not as indicated on the map) in a situation where it is hard to see if it my or the opposition player who touches it).

[Cannes]

Just wanted to say that I love what you're doing. This is the only way that I play FM, by taking the lowest league teams available and taking then to greatness. I'm also managing Bath City and am starting my 8th season having just been promoted to Sky Bet league 2. Took me only two seasons to ge out of the Vanarama south through a 4th place playoff finish.

Was a bit of an easier start for me as I took hold of the club at the beginning of the season though, but still the first season was a serious struggle to assemble any kind of decent team...

I use a slightly modified version of Dafuge's tactic, btw. 4-4-2 wide diamond configuration. Wingers and fullbacks create alot of chances working together with overlaps and passes on the inside of the opponent backs or crosses... Just need a speedy poacher to tap them in!

[Dr. Hook]

Hi folks.

Thanks for all advice. The season has now passed - and I saved myself from relegation, barely - but with one game left to play. It as a struggle all the way, so no break-through. But we grinded out a few good results against medium teams.

My strategy has been through some changes.

- Retain possession is turned off, after the discussion here.

- My defensive line is changed from much higher to slightly higher. This in an attempt to draw the opposition a little bit out, so that there is a bit room in behind the,.

- My AMR has been turned into a IF as suggested here. How this works is that both my wide attacking players are moving into the center of the pitch. This has some advanteges, my players closer together, and it opens up space on the flanks.

- To utilize that, my fullbacks has changed into wing back roles (support) (also suggested by Jean0987654321 here). It does look more suspicious defensively This however all leads to me controlling possession very well - although it still lack attacking punch. That might be down to my attackers being quite poor for this level. I dominate games, both in terms om possession, shots and chances.

Though, not so easily in terms of goals. Now, I could complain about the unfairness of the match engine or something. But in reality it resembles a pattern I have seen in my real life favourite club. An amibitous style of playing, relying on possession, clever passing, triangles and pass-and-move. This all looks very nice, but you need really high quality players and relations to make it work. The end result is often that same lack of penetration that I regularly see here, and the opposition chances - with lots more space to work in - is perhaps fewer, but of higher quality.

But it does feel like a struggle - when this feels like the typical scenario (I, Bath, lost this game 0-1).

I have a few things to do before next season.

- I really have to get a decent striker, with reasonable off the ball skill and finishing (it would be helpful to not have PPM about long shots, which they never succeed with).

- I have to take a look at my wide men. Particularly the AMR, which on paper is one of my better player - but does not fit the inside forward role (and did not play very well with neither that nor the winger role).

- I want to see how my AML will work with other roles.

- I need at least one stronger central defender.

- Ideally I should upgrade my wing backs, because they turn very important it seems, as they now needs to be my wide options also in the attacking phase.

I looked at the reply. It doesn't really take the path indicated on the map. It is a throw in that changes direction (slightly, and almost on the edge of the box, not as indicated on the map) in a situation where it is hard to see if it my or the opposition player who touches it).

You can click on the dot where the throw originated and it will replay the highlight clip for you if you really want to see what happened.

[Svenc]

Always useful to click on the dots. As stats are held as such an objective measurement, the game should ditch clear cuts altogether and include a break down of how many shots were from set pieces, or which ones actually from open play. There has been a clear pattern of horrible conversion and the players piling up set pieces up to the point where he would rely entirelly from them to convert which..... really shouldn't be all that reliably. Some of the most vocal (and most infamous) claiming they'd been cheated over and over, if you looked at the screenshots it's always the same. An average of 15 corners, lots of opposition fouls leading to kicks. That it's so easy to pile up those may be an ME weakness and/or unrealistic approaches to matches you wouldn't see in football (use key in door rather than go battle-ram), considering that top teams average no more than 7 corners a match in football. Still if the matches were uploaded, you'd click on the dots and find that all of the shots inside the box were either from throws, free kicks or corners, madness. This still continues.

In FM it's perfectly doable that all or almost all of the shots come from set play, which pack the boxes by default. However if such happens, it points to that your tactics is really weak at breaking down defenses, as set pieces have their own set of instructions. Why that is the case is for you to work out, however, typically at the core it's either lack of movement or conversely piling every players into the opposing third having them sit atop of each other, etc. If opponents dropped off this would only accentuate this, and the users looking solely at the shot count+1 piling up (plus the odd unreliably ccc) to show how he supposedly "battered" the opponent despite evidently creating zilch from open play. Perhaps a rule of the thumb: If something happens once, it may be bad luck, the player having an off day, being poor because of low morale, yadda yadda. If it happens regularly, it has to be tactical, as tactics create the patterns of play that would transpire over and over. With stuff such as roles and duties governing each player's attacking movement and several more, which would repeat every time, perhaps not much of a surprise.

(off a previous release, quite some shots taken inside the boxes, but marked in blue are all of them coming from set play)

In old versions where corners could be exploited with backs able to score 15 goals a season, this was less of an issue. In some versions marking from attacking throws was bugged too. However set pieces even for the dead ball specialists are at best supplements to their goal tallies and can decide the additionally matches in your favor, but set pieces could never be relied upon entirely [assuming the conversion were somewhat accurate in FM]. https://www.whoscored.com/Articles/s_ha--at8eq_e6a-sj4iew/Show/League-Focus-Analysing-the-Threat-Premier-League-Teams-Pose-at-Corners edit: If you watch, you'd find that AI at their most defensive/Spoiling sometimes don't advance any player much in possession, at their most rigid they oft would create most of their chances from set pieces too in a bid to simply making it hard to score against them (either after taking an unlikely lead, from kick-off, to avoid a heavy beating etc). However they may know what to expect from a match, and sometimes that apparently is just not getting battered, and defying the odds (Greece's set piece plans of 2004, which may have been brilliant as their manager knew what he had to work with, but even within the special confines of short knock-out tournaments, games of some chance nonetheless). Relying on defying them every week would be pretty much a luxury though.