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herne79

Back to Basics - A Complete Club Strategy

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Herne. I have followed this great thread for a while now. Can you explain why you changed from the defensive/structured tactic? Was it unsucsessful or other reasons? Would be interesting to see how it performed as the tactic inspired me to a 4-3-3 counter/structured high pressing tactic I'm currently using with Souton.

Keep up the god work☺

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Useless coaches :mad: lol

Do coaches' attributes affect PPM training?

And is it better to train PPM before 23-years old? after 23, it would be harder to train?

Try and get your PPM training done early if you can.

I have no idea whether coach attributes affect PPM training, it seems rather random to me at times. However, I do try to pick a logical coach for the PPM, eg., my defensive coach to train a defensive PPM.

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Herne. I have followed this great thread for a while now. Can you explain why you changed from the defensive/structured tactic? Was it unsucsessful or other reasons? Would be interesting to see how it performed as the tactic inspired me to a 4-3-3 counter/structured high pressing tactic I'm currently using with Souton.

Keep up the god work☺

The only reason I changed from that Defensive mentality system was to demonstrate an alternative approach to creating a tactic, once I have appropriate players in place and in line with Club DNA. It was (is) a very successful system.

When I get the time I'll also be writing about another tactic I've been using, which is mainly aimed at managing risk as some people can struggle with that.

Remember, this entire thread is more of a "hey here's different options and principles that may give you ideas to help you build your club and tactical system" rather than "this is how I always go about doing things you should do the same", (which is the last thing I want people to do) :).

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Hi.

Thanks for your reply. If anything your posts has really thought me a lot on how I can use different mentalities and shapes to what I usually apply. My usual approach would be to set up in a control/fluid system and expect to dominate matches, however I've probably been far to aggresive in terms of risk and the roles I selected in the past. The counter/structured I now use is probably one of the most dominating systems I have made and it helped me to a 4th place finish with Souton in season 2.

Appreciate the work you put in to this forum to help strugglers like me understand the game and I promise I don't just "plug and play" your set-up but I do use the principals to execute my own ideas?

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I'm a long time lurker and occasional poster.

I just wanted to say what a fantastic thread this is - it is interesting to see how others play the game and the common themes that run between successful approaches.

I particularly like the change of tactical style. I play that way sometimes, although I tend to go fluid or very fluid when using generic roles. I understand though why you've gone standard flexible.

In many ways I think that approach is best for people who are struggling - too many people seem to build covoluted tactics which don't really fit together very well and then wonder why they don't work. A safe bet is always to start with the generic roles and minimal ti's and tweak from there. It's a shame there's no striker role that has no pi's already hard coded into it.

I like the idea of team DNA - I always used to look at determination and decisions as pre requisites for my players but I was inspired by Shrewnaldo's blog on fm15 where he talked about communal attributes for the style of play you want. I tend to choose individual training to hit key attributes - not all of them train work rate and team work which are attributes I now always look to develop.

Splitting the team training into ball control and tactics over the year is not something I had tried before, I usually just leave it on balanced. I'm giving it a go though to hopefully make better improvements!

I like the way you've kept switching tactics - I'm glad it's not just me that has the ppm "likes to change tactics constantly"!

During my current Leeds save, I won promotion playing a 442 diamond, the premier league with a deep 4231, then a 352 libero and now a flat 442. I either get bored with playing a certain way or read / see something that inspires me!

Looking forward to the next update!

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On 7/11/2016 at 08:04, herne79 said:

Think of "Man Management" for your senior squad as "Working with Youngsters" is for your youth teams. It helps with training.

Either of those two choices for AM would be great, assuming the rest of their attributes and personalities are ok.

Does the Working With Youngsters apply to young players regardless of where they play (I think 23 and under?) or does it only impact the youth teams.?

I am taking a customized Dartford club from VNS and after a series of successful promotions (thanks Peterborough Sr. Affiliate!) I'm in Skybet League One.  finances are tight and in order to help with that I find myself acquiring cheap EPL cuts that I can pick up for reasonably inexpensive prices.  Many of them still have loads of untapped potential.  My youth teams are pretty barren and I don't have much for dedicated coaching for them, but I do have several first team players under the age of 23.

As I don't expect to change too much from this particular strategy in the short term, is it important to make sure that my First Team coaches have Working with Youngsters?

 

(Also as I wrote this I realize, does your answer mean "Man Management" doesn't do much for the youth teams as they use Working with Youngsters instead?)

Cheers and thanks for the effort here. It's been super insightful.

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On 03/08/2016 at 12:16, loklokno123 said:

if my player failed to unlearn some ppm , should i insist to tell him to unlearn again ? or just simply give up ?

If I want my player to learn (or unlearn) more than one PPM, I'll try teaching the same PPM twice before I move on to a different PPM.  If it's just the one to learn, I'll keep trying.

13 hours ago, alanschu14 said:

Does the Working With Youngsters apply to young players regardless of where they play (I think 23 and under?) or does it only impact the youth teams.?

If the player isn't over 23, it can have an impact.  However don't go over board, especially in lower league teams.  Just get the best coaches you can afford.

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Awesome thanks.

I'm also having a hard time reconciling the training especially since guides are a bit out of date.  My understanding is that time not spent on "general" training (which I have set to Balanced atm) is time spent on individual training?  Is that actually the case?  It seems like it wouldn't be given that my training workload does go up as I up the team training, specify positions (maybe only for new positions - this might be my confusion?) and individual attribute.

I've mostly just kept myself at one day match training and have average intensity for lack of understanding of the system at the moment. Players do grow, and their workloads on the first team tend to be set to "Heavy" at the moment so I feel like they're getting "a good amount of training."  Wasn't sure if I'd see more focused positional attribute development or something though if I changed the general team training focus.

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18 hours ago, alanschu14 said:

Awesome thanks.

I'm also having a hard time reconciling the training especially since guides are a bit out of date.  My understanding is that time not spent on "general" training (which I have set to Balanced atm) is time spent on individual training?  Is that actually the case?  It seems like it wouldn't be given that my training workload does go up as I up the team training, specify positions (maybe only for new positions - this might be my confusion?) and individual attribute.

I've mostly just kept myself at one day match training and have average intensity for lack of understanding of the system at the moment. Players do grow, and their workloads on the first team tend to be set to "Heavy" at the moment so I feel like they're getting "a good amount of training."  Wasn't sure if I'd see more focused positional attribute development or something though if I changed the general team training focus.

Not entirely sure what you're asking here, however if I understand you correctly then a player's training workload is added up from General Training, Position/Role Training and any Specific Focus you set.  His workload will increase as you add in each area of training.

More Professional players will train better and complain less about their workload.

And the more Match Preparation you set, the less Training your players will do - and vice versa.

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4 hours ago, herne79 said:

Not entirely sure what you're asking here, however if I understand you correctly then a player's training workload is added up from General Training, Position/Role Training and any Specific Focus you set.  His workload will increase as you add in each area of training.

More Professional players will train better and complain less about their workload.

And the more Match Preparation you set, the less Training your players will do - and vice versa.

Ah. I think you still answered it fine.  Sitll a few follow ups and I appreciate your patience! :p

It's definitely clear that match training takes away from the general team training. Does it also reduce time spent on position/focus training? (it looks like it does based on your explanation, I am just a stickler for understanding... I appreciate your patience in this regard!).  I'm getting the feeling that the intensity set here applies to each of the three components as well.

Any thoughts on the overall workload? I'm guessing the higher it is the greater the chance of injuries as well as slower condition recovery?

For context my general thinking was having a smart team skilled at ball handling.  So the plan I'm thinking was:

  • Ball control focus team training for half season, tactical for other half season
  • Personalized positiong/attribute focus as I feel is appropriate each player

This would mean players would still grow for the position I want them to grow in, with some extra team wide focus on ball handling and tactics.  I've been on balanced focus/average intensity mostly because I wasn't sure the implications of the change, but I think I have a better idea now!

Thanks again!

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Been really inspired by this thread so thankyou! I was losing my way with having no clear identity to how wanted to play and indeed manage. Rather than start again I have applied my own DNA half way through first season and am starting to reap the rewards into the second season. 

One thing I did want to know though is do people have a plan B?? For example I play with a false 9 but when things aren't working against certain teams I throw on a advanced forward who will test the defence line in a different way. It is all well and good having a club DNA which I agree with but sometimes I find I need an alternative. What do you do?

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8 minutes ago, Shakey said:

Been really inspired by this thread so thankyou! I was losing my way with having no clear identity to how wanted to play and indeed manage. Rather than start again I have applied my own DNA half way through first season and am starting to reap the rewards into the second season. 

One thing I did want to know though is do people have a plan B?? For example I play with a false 9 but when things aren't working against certain teams I throw on a advanced forward who will test the defence line in a different way. It is all well and good having a club DNA which I agree with but sometimes I find I need an alternative. What do you do?

I don't know if I'd call it a Plan B as such, but certainly having the ability to change and adapt if necessary as differing situations arise can be very important.  Your example of sometimes using an AF instead of an F9 shows this.

Glad you're starting to reap the rewards :thup:.

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On 09/08/2016 at 23:57, alanschu14 said:

It's definitely clear that match training takes away from the general team training. Does it also reduce time spent on position/focus training? (it looks like it does based on your explanation, I am just a stickler for understanding... I appreciate your patience in this regard!).  I'm getting the feeling that the intensity set here applies to each of the three components as well.

Any thoughts on the overall workload? I'm guessing the higher it is the greater the chance of injuries as well as slower condition recovery?

For context my general thinking was having a smart team skilled at ball handling.  So the plan I'm thinking was:

  • Ball control focus team training for half season, tactical for other half season
  • Personalized positiong/attribute focus as I feel is appropriate each player

This would mean players would still grow for the position I want them to grow in, with some extra team wide focus on ball handling and tactics.  I've been on balanced focus/average intensity mostly because I wasn't sure the implications of the change, but I think I have a better idea now!

Thanks again!

When you look at the team training screen, any days when match preparation is scheduled and gives the day another colour, there will be no training on those days, that's general team training or individual training for their position, individual focus or PPM's.

What you have said about workload is correct, and it looks like you've thought through your strategy well.

Not sure if you have seen the link below, it's a very in-depth look at training and player development using Ajax as an example/approach. Worth looking through as even though it was written for FM14 (I think) it is still very applicable.

 

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Hi Herne79

In your post about coaches on the picture you have your Under 21 and Under 18 managers showing on the coach attributes screen where it shows the stars.

Could you tell me how you done this.

Thanks

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4 hours ago, el-chambo said:

Hi Herne79

In your post about coaches on the picture you have your Under 21 and Under 18 managers showing on the coach attributes screen where it shows the stars.

Could you tell me how you done this.

Thanks

You mean in the 4th post date June 21?  That's just the U18s Coaches screen.

In the case of teams in the English Premier League (and probably other leagues as well), the U21 staff will help train U18s, U21s and senior squad players.  iirc I wrote about this further in the thread where rather than employing 2 coaches for the Youth and Senior teams, I employed a single U21s coach to fill the need and save some money.

I don't think that's the case in all countries and leagues, so if you aren't seeing this that could be the reason.

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Sorry I did not make that post very clear.

It is this screen.

You have your Under 18 manager and Under 21 manager showing with all other coaching staff.

How did you get this screen?

Thanks

2wgagib.png

Edited by el-chambo

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6 minutes ago, el-chambo said:

How did you get this screen?

From the side menu bar, select Under 18s.  Then from the tab at the top select Training > Coaches.

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Just a question about fitting players into your system.

For example Zivkovic isn't a natural central midfielder, in fact he is probably accomplished there. Did you train him put him straight start of second season or did you slowly introduce him while he got better at the position? You bought him for that position so did you think his stats matched what you wanted from the role and then train to suit the position?

just interested in finding the right player for the right role

Edited by Shakey

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3 hours ago, Shakey said:

Just a question about fitting players into your system.

For example Zivkovic isn't a natural central midfielder, in fact he is probably accomplished there. Did you train him put him straight start of second season or did you slowly introduce him while he got better at the position? You bought him for that position so did you think his stats matched what you wanted from the role and then train to suit the position?

just interested in finding the right player for the right role

I put him straight in.  Whilst he's still young, he is already pretty well developed and able to hold down a starting spot.

I absolutely thought his stats matched what I wanted, it's the main thing I look at when deciding if I want to buy someone.  His stats matched up to what I wanted, plus he still has plenty of room for growth so easy to focus his training on enhancing those important stats.

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3 hours ago, herne79 said:

I put him straight in.  Whilst he's still young, he is already pretty well developed and able to hold down a starting spot.

I absolutely thought his stats matched what I wanted, it's the main thing I look at when deciding if I want to buy someone.  His stats matched up to what I wanted, plus he still has plenty of room for growth so easy to focus his training on enhancing those important stats.

So wouldn't be worried he wasn't a natural in central midfield in this example? 

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3 minutes ago, Shakey said:

So wouldn't be worried he wasn't a natural in central midfield in this example? 

Nope.  I wouldn't worry if he wasn't even Accomplished.

If a player has the attributes you need for a role then so long as that role is actually part of a balanced system, he'll be fine.  The only "penalty" for playing a player in an non-natural position is a slight hit to his Decisions attribute.

The following thread, which is actually about describing the Deep Lying Forward, demonstrates this point perfectly as the player used as the DLF started out as a Fullback.  It shows how the attributes required - in this instance found in a Fullback - are put to good use for the DLF role required.

https://community.sigames.com/topic/334711-meet-the-deep-lying-forward/

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Herne79, I wish to join the chorus of "thank yous" for this extremely enlightening thread. I have been playing FM games on and off since FM2008 and have learned so much that I had never thought of. The main take-away for me has been the thought of using positional training to target particular attributes I've wanted to see improved, regardless of the player's position. I have particularly found Defenisive Midfielder, Sweeper, Defensive Winger, Central Defender and Target Man target most of the deficiencies within my squad. If an important attribute is left out from those programs it can be easily picked up with a focus program.

I quite deliberately started a Swansea save to put your methods to the test although I am not a big fan of "possession" football. I joined in late December 2015 while they were on a 5 game losing streak and that ended immediately using what I have learned in this thread. They even went on to win against Liverpool, causing much surprise in the League News! While the defence is now rock solid, I have been finding it very difficult to get either of my strikers (Gomis and Paloschi) to get the ball into the net. They don't even seem to get shots away! I have tried them at their optimal roles (TM & AF) as well as F9, DLF(s&a), CF(s&a) and DF(d&s). I have Sigurdsen at AP(s) or AM(s&a), Montero on Wa and Ayea on Ra, with Jack Cork as a CMs and Ki as DLPd.

Any hints or tips to help my strikers find the net will be appreciated. I have played a couple of friendly games against low ranked clubs and Palsochi get a brace and Gomis a hat-trick abut back in the Prem League they proved impotent again. 

Anyhow, thanks again for the insights.

Kel

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@herne79 quick question on the defensive  mentality/risk rethink. I have read elsewhere on other threads that when possession was lost players regroup into their shape quicker when on defensive rather than say control. Is that true or is it more down to the players atribute e.g. work rate, teamwork etc?

I'm toying with switching from my control/structured to Defensive/Structured (with higher line and tempo), but just wanted to fully understand the advantages other than being more careful in posession, less risky passes etc. Thanks in advance.

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merely just wanted to acknowledge Herne in this thread.. putting in so much effort for others.. great little community this is:applause:

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On ‎02‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 23:42, kelabb said:

Herne79, I wish to join the chorus of "thank yous" for this extremely enlightening thread. I have been playing FM games on and off since FM2008 and have learned so much that I had never thought of. The main take-away for me has been the thought of using positional training to target particular attributes I've wanted to see improved, regardless of the player's position. I have particularly found Defenisive Midfielder, Sweeper, Defensive Winger, Central Defender and Target Man target most of the deficiencies within my squad. If an important attribute is left out from those programs it can be easily picked up with a focus program.

I quite deliberately started a Swansea save to put your methods to the test although I am not a big fan of "possession" football. I joined in late December 2015 while they were on a 5 game losing streak and that ended immediately using what I have learned in this thread. They even went on to win against Liverpool, causing much surprise in the League News! While the defence is now rock solid, I have been finding it very difficult to get either of my strikers (Gomis and Paloschi) to get the ball into the net. They don't even seem to get shots away! I have tried them at their optimal roles (TM & AF) as well as F9, DLF(s&a), CF(s&a) and DF(d&s). I have Sigurdsen at AP(s) or AM(s&a), Montero on Wa and Ayea on Ra, with Jack Cork as a CMs and Ki as DLPd.

Any hints or tips to help my strikers find the net will be appreciated. I have played a couple of friendly games against low ranked clubs and Palsochi get a brace and Gomis a hat-trick abut back in the Prem League they proved impotent again. 

Anyhow, thanks again for the insights.

Kel

Glad you've found it useful :).

Difficult to say without knowing your complete set up.  If you're still having problems it might be an idea to start your own thread with your detailed system.

2 hours ago, Coolio5 said:

@herne79 quick question on the defensive  mentality/risk rethink. I have read elsewhere on other threads that when possession was lost players regroup into their shape quicker when on defensive rather than say control. Is that true or is it more down to the players atribute e.g. work rate, teamwork etc?

I'm toying with switching from my control/structured to Defensive/Structured (with higher line and tempo), but just wanted to fully understand the advantages other than being more careful in posession, less risky passes etc. Thanks in advance.

To an extent, but it can be rather simplistic to just focus on mentality. 

With lower mentalities (such as Defensive) your players are by default less adventurous.  The team will also play with less width.  Thus when the ball is lost and your side are transitioning back into their defensive shape they may have less far to run, thus they may, as you put it, regroup into their shape quicker.

However, other factors may impact this such as team shape, team instructions, player roles and duties.  So mentality is just one of many factors that can have an influence.

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17 minutes ago, herne79 said:

To an extent, but it can be rather simplistic to just focus on mentality. 

With lower mentalities (such as Defensive) your players are by default less adventurous.  The team will also play with less width.  Thus when the ball is lost and your side are transitioning back into their defensive shape they may have less far to run, thus they may, as you put it, regroup into their shape quicker.

However, other factors may impact this such as team shape, team instructions, player roles and duties.  So mentality is just one of many factors that can have an influence.

thanks for the reply @herne79. Understood. I may try and create a less risky version (by default) of my current tactic for those difficult away games

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This is terrific and I'm not even all the way through reading yet. I have certainly learned a lot from the way you go about things. I am really looking to install this into a save with my beloved Vale that I will enjoy now the patch out.

The main thing I think I am having problem is how limited you can be relating to your team DNA when you have such little leeway in the transfer market, like the Vale do.

The way I am thinking at the minute is having a carefully thought out way about things and I believe my team DNA is where everyone works for each other in a fairly difficult to break down system (if that is in fact a DNA).

From this though, I feel like I can only affect what I bring in, so I won't bring in anyone with teamwork, workrate, positioning under 12 in an attribute. The reason I am having such a low boundary is because the level we are at, and I believe it is certainly workable at this level.

Am I along the right lines or way off the mark?

Edited by oakesypvfc

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1 hour ago, oakesypvfc said:

From this though, I feel like I can only affect what I bring in, so I won't bring in anyone with teamwork, workrate, positioning under 12 in an attribute. The reason I am having such a low boundary is because the level we are at, and I believe it is certainly workable at this level.

Am I along the right lines or way off the mark?

Spot on :thup:.  Everything is relevant to the level you are playing at.

Just remember that Positioning is used when your players are defending, so very important for defenders but not so much for strikers and more advanced attacking players.

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37 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Spot on :thup:.  Everything is relevant to the level you are playing at.

Just remember that Positioning is used when your players are defending, so very important for defenders but not so much for strikers and more advanced attacking players.

Off the ball is the attribute to look for in attackers then? I am guessing 12 for attributes aren't a bad scale to look for at League One level?

I am also working on a non-defensive set up from a defensive mentality like yours as I think it fits pretty well with a limited bunch of players.

Have gone for a 4-1-4-1 system with Defensive mentality and Structured shape. I've got a midfield combination of a DLP sitting and hopefully finding some good through balls along with a runner from midfield in the shape of a CM-A, you think this could work?

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3 hours ago, oakesypvfc said:

Off the ball is the attribute to look for in attackers then? I am guessing 12 for attributes aren't a bad scale to look for at League One level?

I am also working on a non-defensive set up from a defensive mentality like yours as I think it fits pretty well with a limited bunch of players.

Have gone for a 4-1-4-1 system with Defensive mentality and Structured shape. I've got a midfield combination of a DLP sitting and hopefully finding some good through balls along with a runner from midfield in the shape of a CM-A, you think this could work?

If you head to the top of this forum you'll see a tab that says Online Manual.  That's a good place to go to get an idea for what attributes do (click the tab, click FM17, scroll down and click on Players, then scroll down to the attributes section).  Here's what it says for Off the Ball:

"A player’s movement without the ball. Similar to Anticipation, this is how well players, particularly attacking ones, can assess a situation and then move off the ball, making themselves available to receive a pass in a dangerous position."

In terms of the attribute scale for the level, you can look at team comparison charts in game which compares various aspects of your team to the rest of the league.  That's usually a good starting point (and the diplomatic way of saying I don't know if 12 is a good level or not for league one :D).

For your system, pretty much anything can work so long as it is well balanced in terms of roles, duties, tactical settings and players being used.  Try things out, see how you get on.  If you need further ideas there are a couple of excellent guides in the Guides sticky for the Art of Defensive football and the Art of Counter Attacking.

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@herne79 I'm a bit confused with your training approach. It seems you combine General Training set at Fitness/tactical/ball control with role training & focus training. However, if I read Cleon's long term approach thread, he states "One thing it doesn’t mention above though is if you train an individual focus and any type of general training that is not balanced then you are skewing the attribute focuses twice which detracts from the training and slows development down as the focuses you selected aren’t being focused on as much as they should. This is why you need to decide if you want to take a more generalist approach and use general training to put focus on attributes, if you choose this option then that will be for every single player in the squad. If you choose the individual option then this means you have more control and can work on targeting specific areas of a players development. If you use both at the same time (i.e fitness, tactics, ball control, defending or attacking) then neither method is working to the full potential and while you’ll still see improvements it will be slower and not as good as choosing one or the other."

Have you happened to have noticed this not working to full potential?

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53 minutes ago, DJ Sir Matthew said:

Have you happened to have noticed this not working to full potential?

Nope.

I have to admit I've never quite understood that from Cleon.

To my simplistic mind, I don't really want (for example) my strikers running an increased risk of upping their Tackling attribute or my central defenders unduly improving their Finishing attribute, which is what can happen if you set General Training to Balanced.  With Balanced, all attributes are trained across all of your players.  My preference is usually to focus General Training down one or two avenues (Tactical / Ball Control for example) with the aim of having as many players as possible benefit from this more restrictive use of General Training.  That's then combined with individual role training to complete the picture.

Sometimes of course I just can't be bothered with setting all that up by making changes every X number of months, and simply leave General Training set to Balanced.

So long as your players have the right personalities and get sufficient match time, either way you'll end up with nicely developed players.

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I do the same, not that I really go into training in the same way that I'd do tactics, mind. I set the Team Training to General as well, although I can see a case being made for something like Tactics or especially Fitness. Attacking and Defending is as Herne says, to much skewing. I don't want strikers learning defending attributes.

The real training/shaping is done through Individual Training, for me.

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I have a balanced approach.
For example, if I have to train in "Team Cohesion" cause I bought a lot of players, I only have 25-30 weeks of training during the season so I choose the following:
-6 Weeks Attacking
-6 Weeks Defending
-9 Weeks Ball Control
-9 Weeks Tactical

And it's different training each week.

I also use role training.
For example, I select "Complete Forward", I don't leave it to the default "ST (C) - Playing position" and I think that helps with attackers not improving in defensive attributes because it "takes" from the development and distributes the attribute improvement to the "important" ones.

Individual focus also helps, I always use it, but don't focus on, for example, "a Ball Control related focus for everyone", but on what attribute I want to improve for player X.

All those are for my senior team.

For my youth team it's the same, except for the weekly training distribution. It's something like this:
-8 Weeks Attacking
-7 Weeks Defending
-10 Weeks Ball Control
-10 Weeks Tactical

As a test, I have a young striker. One and a half year now, his tackling has gone from 5.8 to 6.2 and his marking from 3.8 to 4.2.
It's not that big of a deal... And he is the main striker in my youth team, meaning a lot of matches.

Edited by ilkork

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I made for myself a printable document of all herne79's posts in this thread, changed the layout for easy printing and reading.

For those who prefer to read on paper instead of the screen (or need something to read on the train/commute), I've attached the document here.

First Steps - Herne.pdf

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