Back to Basics - A Complete Club Strategy

[dannytjuh]

Great thread!!!! Because of you i'm going to play again!

I have a question. I always have trouble with contract negotiations. The agent are asking way to much fee!

Can you show us how you negotiate or how you set up your wage structure. Also including appearence fee, goal scoring fee, min. interland play's ect....

That would be very helpfull!!

[herne79]

Great thread!!!! Because of you i'm going to play again!

I have a question. I always have trouble with contract negotiations. The agent are asking way to much fee!

Can you show us how you negotiate or how you set up your wage structure. Also including appearence fee, goal scoring fee, min. interland play's ect....

That would be very helpfull!!

Here's the thing about contract negotiations that I think can get overlooked - if you aren't comfortable with any part of the deal, then walk away. There is more than one fish in the sea, and if fish A wants too much, move on to fish B.

Case in point - Manuel Lanzini is on loan at West Ham, currently on £25k a week wages. I have an option to buy him for £5m and he's been my top rated player so far. So for £5m he's a bargain.

His parent club have accepted my £5m offer (they have to), but these are his Agent's opening demands:

To me, that's not even a starting point. I didn't bother negotiating at all, and simply clicked "Walk Away". Dealing with an "unfriendly" agent doesn't exactly help either (no idea why he's unfriendly but we can't all be friends can we).

I might have considered doubling his wages, but I'll never negotiate the Agent down from that starting point to anything like what I'd be comfortable paying. I could probably get him down to within my £75k limit for First Team squad status, but I'm not tripling anyone's wages like that.

Could I pay him that? Of course - as you can see the Board isn't blocking me from paying any of it. But to pay a £5m transfer fee, plus around another £5m in signing on/Agent fees and then significant bonuses, pay rises and a sell on fee as well? I'll find someone else thanks.

[herne79]

Youth Intake Day updated in post #100.

This might get missed as it's on a previous page .

[Str0aK]

Here's the thing about contract negotiations that I think can get overlooked - if you aren't comfortable with any part of the deal, then walk away. There is more than one fish in the sea, and if fish A wants too much, move on to fish B.

Case in point - Manuel Lanzini is on loan at West Ham, currently on £25k a week wages. I have an option to buy him for £5m and he's been my top rated player so far. So for £5m he's a bargain.

His parent club have accepted my £5m offer (they have to), but these are his Agent's opening demands:

To me, that's not even a starting point. I didn't bother negotiating at all, and simply clicked "Walk Away". Dealing with an "unfriendly" agent doesn't exactly help either (no idea why he's unfriendly but we can't all be friends can we).

I might have considered doubling his wages, but I'll never negotiate the Agent down from that starting point to anything like what I'd be comfortable paying. I could probably get him down to within my £75k limit for First Team squad status, but I'm not tripling anyone's wages like that.

Could I pay him that? Of course - as you can see the Board isn't blocking me from paying any of it. But to pay a £5m transfer fee, plus around another £5m in signing on/Agent fees and then significant bonuses, pay rises and a sell on fee as well? I'll find someone else thanks.

Hmm.. interesting. This is another example of how different managers approach and handle situations differently. I would happily pay my top rated player £75k a week. The signing on and agent fees are high but you can get them down. Sure there are other players out there that can do a similar job or a better one but when a player produces for me I prefer to sign him than look elsewhere (especially for a transfer fee as small as £5m) unless they're asking for absolutely ridiculous wages.

[herne79]

Hmm.. interesting. This is another example of how different managers approach and handle situations differently. I would happily pay my top rated player £75k a week. The signing on and agent fees are high but you can get them down. Sure there are other players out there that can do a similar job or a better one but when a player produces for me I prefer to sign him than look elsewhere (especially for a transfer fee as small as £5m) unless they're asking for absolutely ridiculous wages.

Would you still pay him that much if you had a £100m debt? And I currently have just a £6m positive bank balance (from a starting point of negative £15m).

Yeh, I'd happily pay some people £75k a week (or even significantly more), but whether I'd actually get him down below that is another matter, and don't forget that international appearances pay rise. If I exclude that from negotiations, the Agent's starting point will be higher than the initial £89k a week quoted above making it even less likely he'll come down to an acceptable level.

I know the Premier League is awash with money and to be quite honest I could easily afford this deal, but I've drawn a line in the sand and the only way that line will move is if I start regularly competing in the Champion's League.

There's no right or wrong here, and you happily paying him that is totally fine. Like you say, it's just a different approach .

[Str0aK]

Would you still pay him that much if you had a £100m debt? And I currently have just a £6m positive bank balance (from a starting point of negative £15m).

Yeh, I'd happily pay some people £75k a week (or even significantly more), but whether I'd actually get him down below that is another matter, and don't forget that international appearances pay rise. If I exclude that from negotiations, the Agent's starting point will be higher than the initial £89k a week quoted above making it even less likely he'll come down to an acceptable level.

I know the Premier League is awash with money and to be quite honest I could easily afford this deal, but I've drawn a line in the sand and the only way that line will move is if I start regularly competing in the Champion's League.

There's no right or wrong here, and you happily paying him that is totally fine. Like you say, it's just a different approach .

Yeah I wasn't disagreeing with your way at all, merely noting the difference between our management styles.

I also think I get attached to my players more than you do. I would've wanted to reward Lanzini's good season with a permanent move because of that.

[Beren]

Really inspiring topic, herne, following from the very beginning. Love it, I've drawn some huge inspiration from it.

Following on from the salary, finances holding question, may I ask how you dealt with the debt and the poor financial situation of West Ham? I'm currently at Racing Club and I started with a big debt and poor financial situation, but I've been able to turn things around and stabilize my club.

However, I cannot say I am a super-economist and I have not done something special but keeping wages low and not paying huge fees for transfer. I just wanted a second opinion on that and I wonder if you can enlighten us on your financial behavior @WH.

That's because I'm interested in the topic of finances in FM and I want to increase my knowledge about it in order to be able to do more than what I already do.

Thank you so much, I will continue to follow this wonderful thread!

B

[Joe.]

This is fascinating to follow.

I'm currently trying to change the way I play this game - I still can't get my head around training (usually just let my AM do it all) but have recently taken on the individual instructions for my youth team only to give them a decent starting point.

[Kamakazeee]

I see no problem with playing the game with some degree of sentiment. If I have an affinity towards certain players and decide to stick with them what's wrong with that? It's just a different style of management.

I didnt say there was anything wrong with that, I would love to keep sissoko and wijnaldum in my newcastle team as I love them in real life. But, im playing a high pressing game, which requires certain types of players, they have a work rate of 13, 13 and 14 , 14 respectively, they just wont cut it as far as i go in the game. I didnt say you cant play that way.

Herne as demonstrated that perfectly in this thread, he had a vision of how he wanted to play, but he didnt have the players, I.E Carroll and Sakho in F9 position, so he changed his system, but when you are trying to emulate a certain style of play like i do most games, then stats speak for themselves as FM is nothing more than a numbers game.

Theres no right or wrong answer though, jsut peoples preferences on how to play.

[herne79]

@Beren

What you are doing is absolutely correct. Managing wages is (imo) the biggest single thing you can do to keep finances under control.

Well, not just wages - all the add ons can really add up (appearance fees, goal bonuses and so on).

At West Ham I was paying Song £140k a week to basically sit in the stands every other week for all the bans he was getting. That's £560k a month saved, which is massive.

To be honest at West Ham finances are a doddle because we're in the EPL which has ridiculous amounts of money. I can well afford to carry on paying vast sums to players that don't really deserve it, but that (for me) leads to bad practise. I'm a Data Analyst by profession, with a background in Financial Control, so it just goes against every fibre of my being to throw money around willy nilly.

So even though I don't need to, I put in place financial control measures. Everyone fits inside a wage structure, and if they don't they're out (Lanzini) no matter how good they are. Except Mark Noble coz he's awesome .

Eventually I'll loosen the reins a bit, but for now I'd rather focus on developing training facilities than paying players and agents astronomical fees.

Hats off to you for getting Racing Club under control .

[Str0aK]

I didnt say there was anything wrong with that, I would love to keep sissoko and wijnaldum in my newcastle team as I love them in real life. But, im playing a high pressing game, which requires certain types of players, they have a work rate of 13, 13 and 14 , 14 respectively, they just wont cut it as far as i go in the game. I didnt say you cant play that way.

Herne as demonstrated that perfectly in this thread, he had a vision of how he wanted to play, but he didnt have the players, I.E Carroll and Sakho in F9 position, so he changed his system, but when you are trying to emulate a certain style of play like i do most games, then stats speak for themselves as FM is nothing more than a numbers game.

Theres no right or wrong answer though, jsut peoples preferences on how to play.

Ah I got you. Misunderstood what you meant.

Speaking of stats, what is the lowest you would accept for an attribute you deem necessary for your style of play? Personally I would be happy enough with 14 workrate.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Could you pose a screenshot of your excel sheet, for inspiration? Would be nice to see how you are planning for the future.

I missed this post but saw your PM.

Um basically just an excel sheet, so it'll be sorted by position based on the formation I use (I tend to stick to one formation), so it'll be Goalkeepers, DR, DL, DC and so on.

Then across will be their first and surname, age, personality, media-handling, determination, my personal rating*, Strong Foot, Side Preference (if I play 3 in MC or DC), my personal role*, Squad Status (mine), Consistency, Big games, Injuries, PPMs and Decisions*.

*-Personal Rating - This will be my own personal judgement of the player, not the staff. So I look at the attributes they have and I mark them from World Class, Excellent, Very Good, Good, Average, Decent, Poor, Awful. Or some grading system like that (it switches depending on my mood). Over 23's that aren't Very good+ get sold on, Under23's should be aiming for Good, U18's for Decent. Anything Awful is probably 5 or lower in a number of key attributes, so would be too much effort to train and 'fix'.

*-Personal Role - Is the role I think their attributes fit the best. I use this column to pick the role I intend to use 1st hand, so if I play with a CM/D and DLP/S I will say this player suits one or the other role, or 'both' if they're that good. This ties in with my personal rating.

*-Decisions - Nothing to do with their attribute, but my own decision on what I will do with them. I usually go by four grades: Stay, Can go, Sell and Tutor. If a youth player isn't marked 'Tutor' and they have a crap personality it usually means I've decided to sell them on.

I do that for the First Team.

For the U21 and U18 I do the same, but in the first season I don't do it for all the players. In fact, in my first season I loan out all the crap players who I don't think I can save, and release/sell them as soon as possible. The first and second youth intakes are what I use the U21 and U18 sheets for, and even then only the people I rate or think have a chance make it onto that sheet. This way I save time if I need to refresh my memory on who to give a run in the first team in cup games, or who to give my attention to first etc.

My fourth sheet tracks the season by season competition expectations and review from the club, including the media prediction and my actual result.

The fifth sheet tracks all the staff, starting with the First team, to U21, to U18 and then scouts and physios and so on. The staff get rated by category and role and stars. The physio just by their physiotherapy and the scouts by target nation that I intend them to scout in.

The sixth sheet (bizarrely) tracks my in-game results. Every match, along with my assessment of the game. I might put a note down like 'Dominated with ease', or 'Dominated, but wobbled in second half.' - This is mostly to remind myself of which games I'm having trouble in, so I can look back at them in the future and see if I can spot any patterns emerging. Sometimes it's just a formation thing, sometimes it's a specific weakness, sometimes it just makes me confused, but it's a habit thing for me to do now.

And that's pretty much my tracker excel sheet really.

(Edit: Also, sometimes putting the notes down puts results in perspective. I'll note if I hit the bar, or had a shot cleared off the line. That way when I look at a 0-1 loss, I don't over-react, I note that I had the opportunity, that it perhaps was a tighter game than I would have assumed in my anger fuelled passion. Y'know?)

[James9]

- Both fullbacks changed to Fullback(a). This adds aggression down the flanks and good support for the midfield and more advanced wide players. With the Defensive mentality their attacking play is a little tempered, so they won't over commit - which was part of the initial problem.

[/font]

Herne what roles would you advise giving full backs when playing Control has the mentality. I see that you use attack for the full backs with a Defensive Mentality and I can see why you chose those roles and duties.

With a control mentality it makes players on attack more incline to go attacking. Would you say having both players on support duty when playing control is advisable.

I am playing the 4231 and I have decided to have both my CM on Defend Duty

[Kamakazeee]

Ah I got you. Misunderstood what you meant.

Speaking of stats, what is the lowest you would accept for an attribute you deem necessary for your style of play? Personally I would be happy enough with 14 workrate.

For such a style, work rate id be looking for around something 17+ in the midfield. Depending on how aggressive you are, one man not pulling his weight will be like domino effect through the team on the pitch.

Technical stats id probably look for around 15 in certain stats. I prefer mentals over technicals though

In my mind, just thinking in pure numbers, at times, not all the time, but sometimes can make the game a lot easier than looking for tactical issues. As sometimes they arent there, and it can be easy as a weakness in a certain player.

[Kamakazeee]

Herne what roles would you advise giving full backs when playing Control has the mentality. I see that you use attack for the full backs with a Defensive Mentality and I can see why you chose those roles and duties.

With a control mentality it makes players on attack more incline to go attacking. Would you say having both players on support duty when playing control is advisable.

I am playing the 4231 and I have decided to have both my CM on Defend Duty

What have you set your wingers as? As that will determine how they link up with your wingers

[Beren]

@Beren

At West Ham I was paying Song £140k a week to basically sit in the stands every other week for all the bans he was getting. That's £560k a month saved, which is massive.

Ah! That reminds me of a FM14 save I had with Uniao Madeira in the Portuguese Second Division: at the start of the game I had average wage for all my players inthe squad between 30k-50k p/y, but one player was earning 250k p/y!!

First thing in the game: sell him immediately!

Thanks for the reply, herne!

[James9]

What have you set your wingers as? As that will determine how they link up with your wingers

Both wingers are set to support inside forward support and winger support

[Hdefte]

I missed this post but saw your PM.

......

Thanks a lot for the answer, i have been trying to put some stats into excel too lately. Very inspirational reading, thanks.

[JURET]

good thread!

I am with Lazio in 2023 and i use 4-2-3-1 control. (selfmade =

I normally use one winger whos more technical and with place shots in corner as inside forward and one winger with lots of pace (embolo,guedes) as winger attack with a strong tower type striker (babacar+regen). this way i get attacks with headers from crosses and passes and flickons to the inside forward.

I haven't lost a game in last 4 seasons with this tactic. I also have Rulli as GK but hes soon 31 now and needs to be replaced.

My inner midfield consist of and DLP with passing and defensive skills (höjsberg) and one RPM with more physical skills and passing (renato sanchez), they blend well together.

-At the AMC position i useally use a very strong world class passing midfielder as advanced playmaker in support but i can sometimes use a younger player with more speed as attacking midfielder (a).

-Againt stronger teams i change the control strategy to a counter one and reduce my defensive line. Especially when i am againt teams like Juventus with the MONSTER KILLER SCORER DYBALA i check speed and positioning on my defenders before ticking the offside trap.

[dannytjuh]

Here's the thing about contract negotiations that I think can get overlooked - if you aren't comfortable with any part of the deal, then walk away. There is more than one fish in the sea, and if fish A wants too much, move on to fish B.

Case in point - Manuel Lanzini is on loan at West Ham, currently on £25k a week wages. I have an option to buy him for £5m and he's been my top rated player so far. So for £5m he's a bargain.

His parent club have accepted my £5m offer (they have to), but these are his Agent's opening demands:

To me, that's not even a starting point. I didn't bother negotiating at all, and simply clicked "Walk Away". Dealing with an "unfriendly" agent doesn't exactly help either (no idea why he's unfriendly but we can't all be friends can we).

I might have considered doubling his wages, but I'll never negotiate the Agent down from that starting point to anything like what I'd be comfortable paying. I could probably get him down to within my £75k limit for First Team squad status, but I'm not tripling anyone's wages like that.

Could I pay him that? Of course - as you can see the Board isn't blocking me from paying any of it. But to pay a £5m transfer fee, plus around another £5m in signing on/Agent fees and then significant bonuses, pay rises and a sell on fee as well? I'll find someone else thanks.

Thanks!! I have set up the wage structure but i also want some kind of structure for contract bonus.

Also starting with the DNA for my club and cant wait for your post about player attribute for each role!! Since i'm a beginner this thread help me set up the player filters and training!

Can you show us the results of your tactic? Or are you doing that at the end of your season?

[herne79]

Thanks!! I have set up the wage structure but i also want some kind of structure for contract bonus.

Also starting with the DNA for my club and cant wait for your post about player attribute for each role!! Since i'm a beginner this thread help me set up the player filters and training!

Can you show us the results of your tactic? Or are you doing that at the end of your season?

No need to wait for my post, set it up yourself . Remember, I'm only posting about what I want from my players in my system. You could want different things for your set up.

Just have a think about what you want each player to do. If you get stuck, don't just look at the recommended attributes for each role on a player's profile screen, have a look at the default set PIs for each player role as well. So for example, if you use the "Winger" role you'll notice that he needs to Dribble More and Cross More Often. So some dribbling and crossing ability could become part of your "DNA" for that role.

I wasn't really going to show results as that can distract from the principles being discussed and maybe even encourage some people to copy my tactical set up (which wouldn't be a good idea). Lets just say I'll be in the Champions League next season .

[felley]

Just dropping in to say this is a fantastic thread. You play the game in a very similar way to myself, Herne and it's also reassuring to know I'm not the only one who just plain lets players move on if their demands are too high! Sure, I occasionally regret it especially if they are performing well but - as you say - there are always other options out there for a reasonable price.

KUTGW - I'm pretty much only checking the forum for this thread at the moment, so I hope the updates carry on being regular

[herne79]

Cheers felley .

I'm getting towards the business end of the season now, so more updates will follow covering such areas as:

Further DNA analysis by position;

Transfer targets and dealings;

Joe Powell update;

Staff changes;

Training and development;

Tactical changes (yes more!)

The Board have already given me my transfer budget for next season (it's never enough is it? ) but I plan on raising more through player sales (bye bye Dmitri).

[ianscousemac]

Absolutely love this thread has gave me so many ideas. I have taken onboard your advice ref scout reports and I am now playing a lot better.

Quick question apologies if I have missed it in previous posts. Herne do you use Opposition Instructions at all?

Thanks in advance

[herne79]

No, I never use OIs.

Personally I find they can pull players too far away from their tactical duties. However I know many people do use them successfully, so one of those marmite things I think.

[Asmart01]

Playing as Aston villa and I'm set up similarly like 4-1-2-2-1 with a DM, and two wingers and a false 9 type player up top, and am attempting the defensive and structured set up tactic but I seem to be losing every game by 1, am having shots but most of the time to me it looks like there's not enough up top, no real chances seem to be created

How did you get the false 9 to work??

[Str0aK]

Playing as Aston villa and I'm set up similarly like 4-1-2-2-1 with a DM, and two wingers and a false 9 type player up top, and am attempting the defensive and structured set up tactic but I seem to be losing every game by 1, am having shots but most of the time to me it looks like there's not enough up top, no real chances seem to be created

How did you get the false 9 to work??

You need players willing to get beyond the False 9 and be a goal threat. Two wingers isn't the way to go. Try changing one to an IF-A. Need at least one runner from centre midfield as well (CM-A or BBM).

[Asmart01]

Sorry yeah I've got grealish as an if(a) and a cm(a) nether of them seem to be getting up near the false 9 though

[summatsupeer]

Catching up a bit, just read the tactical changes and its really interesting and not what I was expecting to go from Control to Defensive. I don't think i've ever used Retain Possession on defensive mentality, really want to see how it plays out. AP-S as MC in your 4231 was a surprise to but I guess the low mentality restrains him with the extra creative freedom he will get allows him to provide more "pizazz" than a CM-S, especially with Retain Possession. Nice reasoning as always.

[henryzz]

Catching up a bit, just read the tactical changes and its really interesting and not what I was expecting to go from Control to Defensive. I don't think i've ever used Retain Possession on defensive mentality, really want to see how it plays out. AP-S as MC in your 4231 was a surprise to but I guess the low mentality restrains him with the extra creative freedom he will get allows him to provide more "pizazz" than a CM-S, especially with Retain Possession. Nice reasoning as always.

It did seem to be a little extreme going all that way at once. What about Counter and Standard? If it is a risk scale then do you really need to go down so much. I suppose as long as you are getting enough goals then you are fine with low risk. Do you have a very low conceding rate?

This has been a fun thread to read.

[herne79]

It did seem to be a little extreme going all that way at once. What about Counter and Standard? If it is a risk scale then do you really need to go down so much. I suppose as long as you are getting enough goals then you are fine with low risk. Do you have a very low conceding rate?

This has been a fun thread to read.

Did I need to go all the way to Defensive? Probably not, but that isn't the point of this thread. I'm just showing what it's possible to do, to pass across some principles to help people understand the game better.

I'm at the end of the first season now, and am already contemplating another tactical change to perhaps something loosely based on Dortmund as I bring in better players. I don't need to but it might be a fun way to go about getting some further principles across.

That may again be quite an extreme change and I may even crash and burn - that would be fun to see wouldn't it .

[Str0aK]

Question herne, have you found that your full backs are crossing too much since you've switched them to FB-A? If I remember correctly they have Cross More Often by default and that was something you were against in your original setup.

[herne79]

Question herne, have you found that your full backs are crossing too much since you've switched them to FB-A? If I remember correctly they have Cross More Often by default and that was something you were against in your original setup.

Good question.

I do see crosses, but not large amounts and these are my last 50 goal assists:

[Str0aK]

Good question.

I do see crosses, but not large amounts and these are my last 50 goal assists:

Okay that's good to know. I plan to use a FB-A in my system as well but I want more passing than crossing from my team. Could use Work Ball Into Box but I'm worried that could blunt my attack a bit.

[summatsupeer]

Question herne, have you found that your full backs are crossing too much since you've switched them to FB-A? If I remember correctly they have Cross More Often by default and that was something you were against in your original setup.

I think it would depend how the opponents defend. If they don't "park the bus" there will be more space to create chances through the middle. I think if playing as a "big" team your players are more likely to resort to crosses (aka david moyes' man utd) as thats where the space is.

"Work Ball Into Box" was pretty much a required instruction for me in the past but now its definitely situational.

[herne79]

Making Informed Decisions

Buying a new player is a big undertaking. It doesn't matter if you are managing a non-league club or one of the global elite - make the wrong choice and it can cost you your job.

So how can we do everything we can to make sure we get it right? To understand that, I'll first mention the infamous CA and PA (Current Ability and Potential Ability).

CA and PA

CA and PA are hidden numbers, so unless you have some form of Editor program you won't see them. However many people can get quite caught up in worrying about how much CA is going to be used up, or what a player's PA is to determine how much they may develop.

So what are CA and PA?

PA = a hard cap number beyond which a player cannot develop. It's there to basically stop players exponentially developing and everybody ending up with each attribute maxed out to 20.

CA = an aggregate score of a player's attributes. CA cannot exceed the PA cap. It's simply a way of the game being able to tell your coaches or scouts (and thus you) whether a player is able to develop further.

So as a player develops, their CA increases up to a possible maximum of whatever their PA is. Which is why people worry and ask questions about developing players so that they don't use up CA. So whilst they may not be able to see the CA/PA of a player, they know this basic principle and want to avoid "wasting" CA, which is understandable.

Also remember this is nothing to do with star ratings for ability and potential. Star ratings are a comparison between players at your club and how they measure up to each other.

However, this line of thought that focuses so much on CA/PA is wrong. Even forgetting CA/PA for a moment and just thinking instead about developing your player's visible attributes on their profile page is also wrong. What if I told you that a player with lower attributes (and therefore lower CA) can perform better for you and your club than someone with higher attributes and CA? I must be mad right?

Hidden Attributes

Again, unless you have an editor program, you can't see these - but they are extremely important and should not be overlooked. They govern your player's personalities and behaviour.

If you've been following this thread you might remember how I cancelled the loan of Alex Song. Not because of the cost (although that was significant), but because of his hidden attributes - or rather one in particular. On paper, Song was my best player at the club. Great attributes and (probably) the highest "CA". But he kept picking up yellow and red cards. He even had two matches where in one he got a straight red inside 90 seconds of kick off, and in another a straight red within 5 minutes of kick off.

What's the point in having all that lovely "CA", and all of those great looking attributes, if he's sitting in the stands for half the season? This is what I mean when I say players with lower attributes can perform better for you. I'd rather have a player with lower attributes that will actually play regularly for me.

So how to apply that to helping us make informed decisions about which player(s) to buy? These are "hidden" attributes after all. Well actually, they're not quite as hidden as you may think.

Proper Scouting

If you are interested in a player, don't just scout him once. This is why:

I've had an initial scout of Denis Suarez, and my knowledge level is only 66%. There are still 9 areas to scout, and 5 of them are hidden attributes:

- Adaptability: how well a player will settle into a new country;

- Important Matches: how well he'll handle the pressure of those big games;

- Consistency: will he perform well for you week in week out;

- Injury Proneness: will he miss half the season because he keeps picking up knocks?;

- Competitive Streak: is there a chance he'll pick up a lot of bookings?

Always get your prime transfer targets 100% scouted and always read these scout reports. (Right click a player's name, select scouting, get him scouted for at least two weeks). Don't just look at somebody's attributes on their profile, think they look decent and buy them. His attributes could be as good as Messi's, but if he's always injured, won't like living in your country, and when he does play he either gets sent off or he's forgotten how to kick a ball, you're wasting your money.

Applying this to West Ham

I need a new right winger (amongst others). Sam Byram played really well for me there last season, but he doesn't really match up to my DNA and Man City came in with a big offer for him. My rotation option (Antonio) is just that - a rotation option. So I'm looking for targets - take a look at these two player attribute profiles (no names!):

(Note - both players are too old to be tutored).

Both decent looking players on paper, and match up well to my DNA. Going purely by these attributes alone (which many people do) I'd probably favour the first player as he has better crossing and dribbling skills for a winger. And I'd be making a big mistake. Look at these scout reports once both players are scouted to 100% knowledge (in the same order):

Hands up who'd still buy the first player? He's unprofessional (so won't train well); he's inconsistent; his "competitive streak" will lead to bookings (or worse); and even though the report says it's a "Pro", he only has a Balanced personality. The likelihood of him regularly playing anywhere near his ability is pretty slim.

On the other hand, all that contestant number two needs to do is learn how to speak English, which won't be a problem anyway. He'd also be a great Tutor for my Youngsters.

Hopefully you can see why it's so important to get your scouting done right. Remember, if you buy a team full of duds and they don't perform well, it won't be them that'll be sacked .

[Fritz13]

Who are the 2 players then

[felley]

Herne shouldn't tell us the names, it ruins the exercise if you have preconceptions of a player.

[Carles Alena]

Herne I'd still keep looking if I were u.Unless of course those 2 are all u could find. Why? Because the second "speciment" is considerably worse in his ratings than the first one. So even if he does manages to play at the "highest" of his potential that will still probably be around what the other player could do at his worst. Another aspect u neglected to show was their age. If the second one is a youngster (which I suspect) all the above are considered moot.

[henryzz]

How much do you value two-footedness? I am currently looking for a midfielder to replace kouyate and a lot of them are one footed.

[herne79]

Herne I'd still keep looking if I were u.Unless of course those 2 are all u could find. Why? Because the second "speciment" is considerably worse in his ratings than the first one. So even if he does manages to play at the "highest" of his potential that will still probably be around what the other player could do at his worst. Another aspect u neglected to show was their age. If the second one is a youngster (which I suspect) all the above are considered moot.

That all depends on what you want from the player and how you interpret "worse". Sure, player B is "worse" at dribbling and crossing than player A. That doesn't mean that player B can't dribble and cross - far from it. On the other hand, player B's mental attributes and personality traits are superior - and that's the key point here.

So saying that him playing at the highest of his ability is probably only what the first player could do at his worst I'm afraid isn't looking at the whole picture:

- Poor Determination will see player A give up after going a goal or two down;

- He's very inconsistent so even if he doesn't give up, the likelihood of him putting in decent performances and fully utilising his attributes is slim;

- His unprofessional attitude will hamper his training and likely cause management issues; and

- There is a strong possibility he'll pick up several bans throughout the season for dirty play.

He can have all the crossing and dribbling ability in the world, but if he can't or won't apply those attributes on the pitch where it matters, then what's the point?

Player A is a poor choice. If you would rather have player A in your team then you are exactly the type of person this post is aimed at .

Of course, there are better players out there than both player A and player B and indeed I could keep looking, but that's not the point of the post.

How much do you value two-footedness? I am currently looking for a midfielder to replace kouyate and a lot of them are one footed.

I can honestly say it's not an aspect I ever look at.

[Carles Alena]

How much do you value two-footedness? I am currently looking for a midfielder to replace kouyate and a lot of them are one footed.

Srry I take the liberty to answer this for you herne

Two footed players will tend to have lower stats than the one footed player(cuz feets use a lot of CA) and unless you put his other leg onto good use, the one footed player will be as technical on one foot as the two footed player will be with both.One very good "pros" is that he will innately feel comfortable interchanging the ball at his feet compared to one where he might feel "discomfort"

[Carles Alena]

Player A is a poor choice. If you would rather have player A in your team then you are exactly the type of person this post is aimed at .

You really are not worth replying too

[MarchColorDrink]

Really enjoying this thread. Decided to test your approach of not using OIs. I was really chocked by the difference, the team played more consistent as they were not asked varying and possibly contradicting tasks. My new approach is to not use OIs initially, try to rectify problems using PIs and/TIs and use OIs as a last resort only

[Uncle_Sam]

You really are not worth replying too

What you mean to say is that you have no logical rebuttal.

[sgevolker]

Also remember this is nothing to do with star ratings for ability and potential. Star ratings are a comparison between players at your club and how they measure up to each other.

[/font]

I always thought that the star rating is a comparison between the players in the league you're playing and not only at the club.

[Fritz13]

Herne shouldn't tell us the names, it ruins the exercise if you have preconceptions of a player.

Don't really see what difference it makes .... If he bought B then he will feature in the next write up but would be interesting to see who A was in hindsight

[herne79]

You really are not worth replying too

And yet you did .

No offence was meant, I'm merely trying to demonstrate that some people (yourself included judging by your comment) can perhaps overly focus on attributes rather than taking into account how well the player will actually be able to apply those attributes in matches. Attributes are meaningless without application.

On his day, player A will indeed be able to dribble and cross the ball marginally better. But given his personality traits, those days will be few and far between.

That's the principle I'm trying to get across, but of course everyone plays the game differently and if some don't want or like doing that, then no problem and good luck to them.

[Beren]

@Herne, do you think that scout reports in terms of stars and thus in terms of comparison with other players on your team, compare them, in the vision of the scout, just looking at the attributes of both players, or also taking into account all those things you mentioned? And, if the latter is the case, how much are hidden attributes valued in the comparison?

Thanks a lot!

[herne79]

@Herne, do you think that scout reports in terms of stars and thus in terms of comparison with other players on your team, compare them, in the vision of the scout, just looking at the attributes of both players, or also taking into account all those things you mentioned? And, if the latter is the case, how much are hidden attributes valued in the comparison?

Thanks a lot!

As far as I'm aware, only a player's visible attributes as shown on his profile screen are included.

I think it might be useful if I updated the above post with a bit more info about star ratings.