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If at first you don't succeed, blame the game and try again - A San Marino Youth Challenge 2.0

Bedese

By Bedese,
in FM Career Updates

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Bedese

Bedese

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1 hour ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

You play your best AML at AML and you play your 2nd best AML as an IF(a) on the right wing. Problem sorted,

I forgot, my best AML is playing at RWB, my second best AML is playing at AML and I don't have a third yet. Once Zafferani develops, though, we're sorted :thup:

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Bedese

Bedese

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Season Review!

 

Campionato Sammarinese:

Table


Schedule

Nicely done.

Coppa Titano:


Table


Schedule

Dominant.

Squad

Key Players:

 

Highest Average Rating:
Massimo Gualandi (YP136) - 8.02

We've got two pretty good strikers now.

Luca Canton (YP130) - 38

That's an insane scoring rate.

Manager's Player of the Year:

Marino Berti (YP137)

He's great.

Aims for Next Season:

 

We need a good intake.

Other teams:

League winners: :D

Cup winners: :D 

 

How the team in CL Qualifying did: We lost in the Third Qualifying Round to Celtic.

How the teams in Europa Qualifying did: We lost to Maccabi Tel-Aviv in the Playoff. Juvenes Dogana lost 7-0 to Sion, Virtus lost 3-0 to Mladost from Montenegro and Faetano lost 4-1 to Zalgiris.

2087 Results --------------- 2088 Results

I really regret my decision not to take charge of the team for the Playoff.

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jengaehassim

jengaehassim

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On 07/09/2016 at 20:48, Jupjamie said:

Not especially, no. My theory is that the more we park the bus, the more pressure we'll be under because the ball just keeps coming back towards our goal, our players will tire much quicker and we'll get battered later on in the game. I'm defensive in Europe, but I wouldn't say I park the bus. Here's the tactic:

 

dbdb908f4ca49bc6155d5b465b46e9ab.png

It's set to counter, and the instructions on it are roam from positions, pass into space, be more expressive and low crosses. Individual instructions are for my keeper to kick it out to the FB/WB and to slow the pace down, for my BBM to try more risky passes, my DLF to roam, move into channels and close down much more and my AF to roam and close down much more.

Very creative tactic, I have never been able to pull off something as asymmetrical as this.

With that being said, I can't help but wonder if you aren't exposing too much your team using 2 strikers and an AM. I understand the reason you don't like being defensive, but that's how most technically inferior clubs do IRL.


Hope I didn't sound offensive, just trying to be helpful. 

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zele

zele

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7 hours ago, Jupjamie said:

6ca8739293e2394c70ad207ef16cdaa0.png

We were somehow 20 minutes away from taking them to extra time. I'm not too upset it didn't happen, because we would have lost in it anyway, but I'm annoyed that they only took the lead from a cross that flew directly in.

Can this be sign of the better days? We all hope so.

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endtime

endtime

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So, I finally had a bit of time to look at the save. I used the IGE to check how the club and league reputation changes and maybe find out why the Sanmarinese league jumps up and down 100+ places every season. I'm going to spoiler what I found in case people don't want to see the reps.

Spoiler

The save that @Jupjamie uploaded a couple of pages ago is from 2 September 2079. The reputations are as follows: 

Club: 2330 (max is 10000)

League: 9 (max 200)

@Jupjamie, I won the league and cup without losing a single game, but lost the Supercup due to international call-ups. I also did slightly better in the Europa group, picking up 4 points after beating Legia and drawing against Sparta.

After the season reset date, the reps were:

Club: 2316

League: 15 (up 102 places).

What this means is that just by playing in the Sanmarinese league the club is losing reputation - despite winning the double without losing a game and getting extra rep points for getting results against bigger teams in the Europa League group, our reputation took a net rep loss. I think that whenever you lose or draw to a team you are favoured to win against, your rep takes a loss, and the bigger the gap between your rep and the other team's rep, the bigger the hit. 

In the CL qualification, I got drawn against KR from Iceland and beat them, the club reputation increased to 2331. In the next round I was soundly trounced by Basel (:mad:), but this had no effect on club reputation. In the Europa playoff we were drawn against Besiktas and managed to scrape past them on away goals. After the first game, which we won 2:1, rep increased to 2341, then after we made it into the groups it further increased to 2460. I'm going to continue playing with this save and check what happens with the league reputation, then I'm going to reload a save which I made just before the Besiktas game, get knocked out on purpose, and then I'll play on to see how this affects club reputation.

I assume that league reputation is mostly based on the reputation of clubs that play in it, therefore an increase in our reputation should also bump the league rep. The problem is that all the other clubs in the league have a shockingly low rep - the next highest is Fiorentino with a measly 671, Virtus has the lowest rep at 607. For comparison: the least-reputable club in Andorra is FC Encamp B with 777. 

Oh, and one more thing @Jupjamie: I agree with those people who say that your tactic against bigger clubs is too risky. I know your squad is weaker now, but back in 79/80 the players in the squad were good enough to at least make the Europa groups on a consistent basis, if you only played a bit more conservatively. Of course it's your game and you should play it as you see fit, but this may just be a thing for you to consider, I know that having zero success for so long can be demotivating.

 

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Njeroe

Njeroe

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3 hours ago, endtime said:

So, I finally had a bit of time to look at the save. I used the IGE to check how the club and league reputation changes and maybe find out why the Sanmarinese league jumps up and down 100+ places every season. I'm going to spoiler what I found in case people don't want to see the reps.

  Hide contents

The save that @Jupjamie uploaded a couple of pages ago is from 2 September 2079. The reputations are as follows: 

Club: 2330 (max is 10000)

League: 9 (max 200)

@Jupjamie, I won the league and cup without losing a single game, but lost the Supercup due to international call-ups. I also did slightly better in the Europa group, picking up 4 points after beating Legia and drawing against Sparta.

After the season reset date, the reps were:

Club: 2316

League: 15 (up 102 places).

What this means is that just by playing in the Sanmarinese league the club is losing reputation - despite winning the double without losing a game and getting extra rep points for getting results against bigger teams in the Europa League group, our reputation took a net rep loss. I think that whenever you lose or draw to a team you are favoured to win against, your rep takes a loss, and the bigger the gap between your rep and the other team's rep, the bigger the hit. 

In the CL qualification, I got drawn against KR from Iceland and beat them, the club reputation increased to 2331. In the next round I was soundly trounced by Basel (:mad:), but this had no effect on club reputation. In the Europa playoff we were drawn against Besiktas and managed to scrape past them on away goals. After the first game, which we won 2:1, rep increased to 2341, then after we made it into the groups it further increased to 2460. I'm going to continue playing with this save and check what happens with the league reputation, then I'm going to reload a save which I made just before the Besiktas game, get knocked out on purpose, and then I'll play on to see how this affects club reputation.

I assume that league reputation is mostly based on the reputation of clubs that play in it, therefore an increase in our reputation should also bump the league rep. The problem is that all the other clubs in the league have a shockingly low rep - the next highest is Fiorentino with a measly 671, Virtus has the lowest rep at 607. For comparison: the least-reputable club in Andorra is FC Encamp B with 777. 

Oh, and one more thing @Jupjamie: I agree with those people who say that your tactic against bigger clubs is too risky. I know your squad is weaker now, but back in 79/80 the players in the squad were good enough to at least make the Europa groups on a consistent basis, if you only played a bit more conservatively. Of course it's your game and you should play it as you see fit, but this may just be a thing for you to consider, I know that having zero success for so long can be demotivating.

 

Interesting read, I myself didn't know club reputation would improve throughout the season. You're probably right about the other teams in San Marino holding the league down too.

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BoxToBox

BoxToBox

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15 minutes ago, Njeroe said:

Interesting read, I myself didn't know club reputation would improve throughout the season. You're probably right about the other teams in San Marino holding the league down too.

Damn Sammarinese, they ruined San Marino!

 

hqdefault.jpg

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Ceching You Out

Ceching You Out

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4 hours ago, endtime said:

So, I finally had a bit of time to look at the save. I used the IGE to check how the club and league reputation changes and maybe find out why the Sanmarinese league jumps up and down 100+ places every season. I'm going to spoiler what I found in case people don't want to see the reps.

  Reveal hidden contents

The save that @Jupjamie uploaded a couple of pages ago is from 2 September 2079. The reputations are as follows: 

Club: 2330 (max is 10000)

League: 9 (max 200)

@Jupjamie, I won the league and cup without losing a single game, but lost the Supercup due to international call-ups. I also did slightly better in the Europa group, picking up 4 points after beating Legia and drawing against Sparta.

After the season reset date, the reps were:

Club: 2316

League: 15 (up 102 places).

What this means is that just by playing in the Sanmarinese league the club is losing reputation - despite winning the double without losing a game and getting extra rep points for getting results against bigger teams in the Europa League group, our reputation took a net rep loss. I think that whenever you lose or draw to a team you are favoured to win against, your rep takes a loss, and the bigger the gap between your rep and the other team's rep, the bigger the hit. 

In the CL qualification, I got drawn against KR from Iceland and beat them, the club reputation increased to 2331. In the next round I was soundly trounced by Basel (:mad:), but this had no effect on club reputation. In the Europa playoff we were drawn against Besiktas and managed to scrape past them on away goals. After the first game, which we won 2:1, rep increased to 2341, then after we made it into the groups it further increased to 2460. I'm going to continue playing with this save and check what happens with the league reputation, then I'm going to reload a save which I made just before the Besiktas game, get knocked out on purpose, and then I'll play on to see how this affects club reputation.

I assume that league reputation is mostly based on the reputation of clubs that play in it, therefore an increase in our reputation should also bump the league rep. The problem is that all the other clubs in the league have a shockingly low rep - the next highest is Fiorentino with a measly 671, Virtus has the lowest rep at 607. For comparison: the least-reputable club in Andorra is FC Encamp B with 777. 

Oh, and one more thing @Jupjamie: I agree with those people who say that your tactic against bigger clubs is too risky. I know your squad is weaker now, but back in 79/80 the players in the squad were good enough to at least make the Europa groups on a consistent basis, if you only played a bit more conservatively. Of course it's your game and you should play it as you see fit, but this may just be a thing for you to consider, I know that having zero success for so long can be demotivating.

 

First, a big thanks for the analysis! Your findings match some of what I'm seeing (without the editor) this season in my Luxembourg save. For those who aren't following my thread, we're in a midst of a phenomenal run to the EL Group Stages after knocking out Red Bull Salzburg in the 2nd CL qualifiers. With that win we returned to a 2 star rep club and I'm noticing a significant increase in the type of staff that we can attract.

The match by match changes also fit with the experiments I remember on the forums years ago. Basically club reputation responds to matches the same way chess or FIFA online rankings do; the larger the difference in the opponents, the less that can be gained by the victor or lost by the loser. Likewise, a win by a significant underdog results in massive losses and gains, respectively.

Club finances and high profile transfers are also supposed to affect club reputation, but those are less relevant in a save like this.

One thing I'd be interested to see confirmed -- the new season reputation adjustment based on league rep. Anecdotally, there seems to be a check at the start of the new season where player and club rep gets "normalized" if it's significantly above the league rep. Makes it difficult to raise your profile as a big club in a small nation because you're constantly getting dragged backwards by the league rep even if you're making strides in-season.

If you're in a particularly experimental mood, maybe capture all the club reputations and league reputation for a few years to see if we can see a pattern that might show how one contributes to how the other is calculated?

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Bedese

Bedese

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I've just moved to university so I won't be updating all that often for a little bit. With that said...

 

@endtime: Thank you so much. Your research is awesome. I haven't really decided what to take away from that, though. Is that a bug I can't work my way past? I don't think so. Do I just power on, and hope that I can drag ourselves up enough to raise the other teams with me. Do I start giving them money/players, so that they're more competitive in Europe and drag themselves up, sacrificing our dominance? I need to think about that one.

 

One thing I will say - I wonder why that's happening on my save, but not @smp20 or @Makoto Nakamura's. As far as I know, we all used the same setup/database, but they didn't seem to have this reputation issue.

 

I'll bow to reason on the tactical front. When I hop on the save again, I'll start to tinker with something more defensive minded.

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Ceching You Out

Ceching You Out

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1 hour ago, Jupjamie said:

 

@endtime: Thank you so much. Your research is awesome. I haven't really decided what to take away from that, though. Is that a bug I can't work my way past? I don't think so. Do I just power on, and hope that I can drag ourselves up enough to raise the other teams with me. Do I start giving them money/players, so that they're more competitive in Europe and drag themselves up, sacrificing our dominance? I need to think about that one.

 

One thing I will say - I wonder why that's happening on my save, but not @smp20 or @Makoto Nakamura's. As far as I know, we all used the same setup/database, but they didn't seem to have this reputation issue.

This is a question I've been pondering a lot myself the last few days after seeing how (I think) league reputation limits club reputation to some extent. There seem to be a lot of things that affect reputation with signings, facilities, and success being the biggest. Ideas are still percolating; the best I've come up with so far is to "financially dope" a fellow club. Buy scrub players for outrageous sums and hope they reinvest the money well. It's admittedly requires a healthy dose of luck, but perhaps by loading the right feeder-type leagues for them to pick at you could improve the odds.

I'm very, very curious how your save so heavily diverged from theirs since I believe you're on the same version of FM and using the same San Marino pack. Was there a DB size difference? More/fewer active leagues? Presence vs absence of early European success that puts you on a different trajectory?

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Bedese

Bedese

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On 12/09/2016 at 23:05, jengaehassim said:

Someone with the save file and the IGE (and plenty of time) could give San Giovanni's players perfect attributes and win the UCL, to see how limited reputation really is.

I would imagine that if we were that good in Europe, we'd be dragging the other teams up with us a long way. I think the best thing to do, though, is to just focus on us making the groups as often as possible and ignoring reputation - once we then start to become more of a regular there, we can use the excess money we'll have to fund some other teams to help us out.

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Bedese

Bedese

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On 13/09/2016 at 11:33, sjg11 said:

Hi, 

Just read through this in a few sittings, it's a really enjoyable save. Hope the League Rep issue gets sorted so progress can really start to be made. 

Thank you! I actually haven't been on the save in a few days, but I hope to have an update out for you guys soon (possibly tomorrow).

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Bedese

Bedese

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I know I said I'd hopefully have an update for you on Friday, but quite clearly that didn't happen. I haven't given up with this save at all, but I haven't actually touched FM since I moved down to university. I'll be back on it ASAP, I promise :D 

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Bedese

Bedese

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4 hours ago, MichaelBrown said:

Which uni you gone to Jamie, and are you actually from Rotherham?

I'm down in the south of England for uni, although exactly what one is for me to know and you to guess multiple times until you get it right :lol: 

And no, I'm actually not from Rotherham (London born and bred), and I don't have any family there, either. I can't really explain why I support them - for whatever reason, I just had a real affinity for them when I was younger, and that's stuck :D 

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Bedese

Bedese

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Season Review!

I've decided to streamline the season review. If there's any player screenshots you want, just ask me for them.

 

League

We tried out our new tactic from February (which I'll post in a minute). Did it work? Well, we set the record for goals scored in the history of the league, but we seemed a little open at the back to me. We'll see how it does in Europe. 

Schedule

 

Squad

Marino Berti (YP137) is far and away the best player at the club, and he had a dominant season. We had five players with an average rating over 8.00, which is fantastic. Silvano Zonzini was one such player - he's absolutely exploded out of nowhere to be a key striker for us.

 

Other Teams: All lost in the First Qualifying Round of Europa.

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Bedese

Bedese

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Here's the tactic I'm trying out:

 

6c048670edbe942cdb39adfa863a241b.png

I've got no idea how it'll do. There's no instructions on it yet except for low crosses, so I can see how it does by default. I'm trying to go with a defensive tactic, but when our four best players are two strikers, a CAM (who I'm trying out as an AP from the CM position, which may not work) and a winger, it's not easy.

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Bedese

Bedese

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3dd892c7d577b630e7b44e1b19804aac.png

The gap between our midfield and attack was absolutely huge, and they completely dominated us for 90 minutes. We had absolutely nothing going forward and were lightweight at the back. I just can't work out a way to get all of our best players on the field at one time, play defensively AND have enough midfielders to support the transition from defence to attack. For now, I'm going back to our asymmetric WB tactic, and I'll look to change that once we get some talented players in that aren't attackers.

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jengaehassim

jengaehassim

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3 hours ago, Jupjamie said:

I just can't work out a way to get all of our best players on the field at one time, play defensively AND have enough midfielders to support the transition from defence to attack.

I honestly don't think that's possible, because you got unlucky with the intakes which lead to a unbaleced squad. The AP (S) doesn't provide enough defensive cover to play in a midfield duo, so the biggest problem lies there. The simplest idea would be drop him for a proper center-mid or drop one of the strikers and go for a 4-1-4-1.

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Ceching You Out

Ceching You Out

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11 hours ago, jengaehassim said:

I honestly don't think that's possible, because you got unlucky with the intakes which lead to a unbaleced squad. The AP (S) doesn't provide enough defensive cover to play in a midfield duo, so the biggest problem lies there. The simplest idea would be drop him for a proper center-mid or drop one of the strikers and go for a 4-1-4-1.

I feel like I'm interjecting, but seconded. You can get away with playing very attacking players in a more defensive formation. I'm using the 4-1-4-1 with attacking players at every position except for the back 4 plus keeper; results have been pretty solid defensively. Might be worth trying the same or something similar (like 4-3-3 DM/Wide).

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