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xekyn92

Are B Teams in the Spanish Tercera Division hard coded to never get promoted?

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To give a little backstory, i'm a few years into my FM 2016 save with Deportivo La Coruna and really enjoying it, however one of my only complaints so far is that my B Team (Deportivo B) is languishing in the fourth tier of Spanish football (Spanish Third Division Group 1 as the game calls it) which happens to be the highest of the non-playable Spanish leagues in FM 2016. As a non-playable league, it does not generate any fixtures, which means any young players i assign to this team end up stagnating as they gain essentially no experience outside of the friendly matches i schedule for them throughout the season, a task i find quite tedious.

For those of you who are unfamiliar, Spain does not have a separate Reserves league and instead utilizes a system of B Teams that actually play within the same football pyramid as their parent clubs. The only rule i am aware of is that a B team and their parent club cannot play in the same division, which means the B teams of Real Madrid/Barcelona for example are limited to playing in Liga Adelante (the second tier) at best, they can still win Liga Adelante but promotion will be granted to the next highest finishing non B team instead.

Now, going back to Deportivo B, i feel it is worth mentioning that the fourth tier in Spain is quite expansive, there are 18 divisions containing ~360 teams (Spanish Third Division Groups 1-18) that vie for promotion to Segunda B (the third tier, which is the currently the lowest playable tier in the game without using an expanded database, which i am not). In other words, if the game just arbitrarily picks which teams get promoted from these non-playable divisions each season, i would expect to wait quite a while to see Deportivo B get promoted, in fact it would be fairly unlikely to happen at all without me influencing the outcome in some way, which is exactly what i set out to do.

To my knowledge promotion of teams from non-playable leagues is determined primarily by their reputation, as the game does not actually simulate fixtures for these hidden leagues. Therefore the quality of players on the team for example should not make a difference in determining whether or not they get promoted (even though my Deportivo B squad is significantly stronger than any of these Tercera division teams).

The B teams of the big Spanish clubs that play in these lower tiers already have comparatively high reputations, which means they should be one of the favourites for promotion by default, however after saving and re-loading at the season reset date a great deal of times, i was unable to get Deportivo B promoted into Seguna B.

No big deal i thought, i went into the in-game editor and changed the reputation of Deportivo B to 10000, figuring that would ensure promotion and that i could just restore it to the default value of 3000 afterwards. Another hour of re-loading at the season reset date later and still no dice, however this time i was keeping track of which teams actually were getting promoted each time i reset it. I noticed a trend, it was indeed the higher reputation teams that were getting promoted each time, the teams in this tier have reputations ranging from 1-3000 (with the B teams at the higher end of that) and the promoted teams almost always had 2000+ reputation, but it was NEVER any of the B teams that got promoted. It would seemingly only promote independent teams, even if their reputation was lower than that of the B teams they were theoretically competing against.

I figured perhaps the game weights the independent teams more favourably than the B teams when determining who gets promoted, so what did i do? I painstakingly went through all of the independent teams in this tier with over 1000 reputation and manually set their reputation to 1, leaving the B teams with their usual 2000-3000 reputation and setting Deportivo B at 10000 once again. What happened? None of these teams with 1 reputation got promoted, but instead of promoting any of the B teams (which at this point were by far the highest reputation teams in this tier) it just promoted the highest reputation teams remaining from the pool of teams i hadn't altered, as long as they were independent football clubs.

At this point i was convinced this next attempt wouldn't work, but i did it anyway. I altered every single non-B team in this tier to have 1 reputation (which took ages) and once again did a bunch of re-loading at the season reset date. At this point it just became totally random, it would still never promote B teams, but it seemed to weight all of the other teams completely equally. Reputation clearly does play a part in this process, as before i started tampering with the reputations of the teams, it would only ever choose to promote the two/three teams with the highest reputations in each division, providing they were independent teams. But there is clearly something else at work inhibiting the B teams from being promoted, and i have no idea what it is or how to get around it.

I apologize for the wall of text, but i was wondering if anyone knows of a work around for this problem. Is it simply a case of them hard coding this teams to never get promoted regardless of reputation? There's definitely no rule preventing it from happening, as many of the bigger clubs have B teams in the playable leagues all the way up to Liga Adelante. It's evident from my testing that you can manipulate which teams get promoted via altering reputations, but it seemingly only works on independent clubs, not those that are a B/reserve team of a bigger club, i figure there must be something causing it to behave that way.

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all i could think of trying next, is changing there league competition participation in the editor. obviously, that would require a whole new save though

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all i could think of trying next, is changing there league competition participation in the editor. obviously, that would require a whole new save though

Yeah, that's definitely the only sure-fire way i can think of, but sadly i'm many years into my save and quite attached to it, i'd preferably like to avoid starting again.

I went ahead and tried changing the B-teams to semi-professional/amateur clubs, that didn't help either.

I'm 100% certain there's a hidden mechanism at play preventing these B teams from getting promoted into the playable league, but the strange thing is that I went poking around in the pre-game editor trying to find out what exactly was responsible but couldn't find any mention of it in the advanced rules/settings.

I don't even know what it is i'm trying to circumvent/work around, i've found no mention of it elsewhere on this forum/internet either. It's not exactly game-breaking, but it would be tremendously useful to have my B team in a playable league. I'm beginning to think there's no way to do it without starting again though :(

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They're not, I've had 'B' teams promoted to a division where I could see their fixtures. You have to fill the team with talent (creating a squad that would win or be close to in that division) and wait. It's actually very likely the team gets promoted quickly if it has around 20 players that are decent

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If it's unplayable leagues, the chances of promotion are very heavily weighted in terms of reputation. If there are big rep sides in there, they're almost always going to be the ones getting promoted to the playable leagues. Imagine that's the issue. There's not going to be any hard-coding, beyond making sure that B teams aren't in the same league as their parent club.

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Not hard-coded as Bilbao's B team are currently in Liga Adelante (tantamount to the Championship). They could never go any higher as Bilbao are in La Liga.

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Not hard-coded as Bilbao's B team are currently in Liga Adelante (tantamount to the Championship). They could never go any higher as Bilbao are in La Liga.

That means nothing as they start there.

Also in previous years it was hardcoded to prevent them from getting promoted. I tried a million ways in previous iterations and it was impossible. I think in 2013 or 14 or whenever it was finally possible but prior to that nope.

As for the reputation thing I'm not sure that is true nowadays. I tried yesterday setting a B team's rep to 9999 and after holidaying for several seasons it never got promoted. (EDIT: And the op even went further with that apparently) No matter what. (In the Portuguese league) Even if it isn't hardcoded to never let them get promoted I'd say it pretty much lowers the chances of that happening... to like 0.000000000000000001%.

I'm yet to see one get promoted in any league btw. (from the non-playable leagues)

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They're not, I've had 'B' teams promoted to a division where I could see their fixtures. You have to fill the team with talent (creating a squad that would win or be close to in that division) and wait. It's actually very likely the team gets promoted quickly if it has around 20 players that are decent
this is correct. ive had b teams promted as well just need to have good players

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Bumping this topic as I am in a save now with Melilla in Spain. Starting to get problematic to not have a "B" reserve team playing in leagues that are trackable in the game. Has there been any change in FM18? Is there a best practice for getting a lower level B team through? Stacking with talent for example or otherwise? 

Side note, I also find it almost impossible to find a hireable coach for that team since it is part time...

Thanks ahead of time for any notes!

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8 hours ago, Randisco said:

Bumping this topic as I am in a save now with Melilla in Spain. Starting to get problematic to not have a "B" reserve team playing in leagues that are trackable in the game. Has there been any change in FM18? Is there a best practice for getting a lower level B team through? Stacking with talent for example or otherwise? 

Side note, I also find it almost impossible to find a hireable coach for that team since it is part time...

Thanks ahead of time for any notes!

Speaking from FM17, I've saved on the final day with Barca and Barca b in the tercera and did 100 attempts and they never got updated. Somehow I was able to load the league later tho, and they got promoted. It's apparently based on reputation..

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention, in the yearly round up they were ALWAYS winning the tercera, but if you don't know about the tercera (and why its so difficult) there are many regions, and the winners of each tercera face off for promotion.

Edited by steakfaced

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6 hours ago, cris182 said:

Unless they are in the very next league below then no they won't be promoted from experience over the years

That changed a couple of versions ago, teams will now promote through the unplayable leagues over the years, the chances of it happening are slim but given enough time it can happen, though not sure if the same happens for B teams or not, it will also depend on whether the team you want is assigned to a division and if the game has set the pyramid down to that level as well as the rules for that country.

For teams to get promoted it is largely based on reputation and luck, as well as the rules regarding promotion in the feeder leagues (the game will basically sim the division much like it does when you don't load in leagues to determine who goes up and down).

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