FM16 - The community formation experiment

[heron]

After a rough start I've found some inspiration here to carry on and the club is growing on me. I'm not really doing great things (currently hovering around place 4, losing some games I should have won easily) but I also managed to beat PSG twice (at home) and will play Monaco in the 2nd knockout round of the Europa League.

First I'll try and finish my first season (it takes a lot longer than in FM Touch which I normally play) and post an update. Then I'll see whether I stick to the 2+1 transfers rule or do a major overhaul.

[kkfootball]

After a very shaky pre season with Saint Etienne I was very worried. Thankfully after the first three games of the season we got our act together and won the league and both french cups. I also made it to the Europa league final were I was demolished due to me being heavily reliant on strikers as I played the 4-3-3 narrow and having two starting strikers injured and Neal Maupay out on international duty with the french u-20s. Overall it was a successful season and next year a lot of my youth will get game time. I plan on bringing in a center back and a left back as I'm losing Tabnou and Assou-Ekotto.

[cregan]

3-4-1-2: Don't look back in Angers...

Halfway through the season now. We're into the knockouts of the Europa and a draw against Napoli (long odds on progressing any further, then), but wobbled in the league. The 3-0 loss to PSG at the start of October was the beginning of a four-game losing run (admittedly with three of those four coming against top-four sides) in which we conceded 14 and scored 4. We've more or less recovered, but we're not as imperious as before. Roux had a run of bad form but has since recovered, Sall's gone off the boil at the back and is now on the bench most games, Cohade was out injured for ageas and K-TC is going to be replaced by another defender come January. Apart from anything else, he's given away four penalties through lousy tackles/positioning, and cost us an unreasonable number of points. 9th in the league, but we would've been 7th if we hadn't blown a 2-0 lead at home to Angers a couple of games ago.

On the upside, I tried a switch to Standard/Very Fluid and dropped the ML to W(s) by default to tighten things up a little against better sides and while it's not been entirely successful, it seems to have brought the best out of the otherwise anonymous Correa, who's started showing up for games at long last, Selnaes in midfield, and in some games at least whoever plays at DLF(s).

Still vulnerable to quick long balls at the back, still doing most of our best defensive work in midfield, still third for fouls committed and top for yellow cards received, still highest possession stat in the league. Stamina clearly an issue for all the pressing we're doing; we concede more goals in the final 15 minutes than any other time in the match. Unless the incoming Mitrovic adds some discipline to our back three (he won't; he doesn't travel well apparently), I suspect this is how it'll be for the whole second half of the season. Still, this time out no one's threatened to sack me yet.

[Forza Doria!]

Sorry you are having these sorts of problems. I approve posts as soon as I spot them, although quite why yours are getting caught out like this I don't know.

I'll report this issue now that I know you're having trouble and hopefully straighten things out for you.

Thank you, herne79. Really appreciate your help with this.

I have a lot of ideas to share and discussions I'd like to contribute to.

Thanks again.

[cregan]

3-4-1-2

Three quarters through the season. I really, really need to learn to stop trying to mess with things and that sometimes you just hit a bad spell. Late November's OKish spell playing Standard/Very Fluid saw a final win in the league on December 6 and then nothing else outside cup competitions, despite tweaking in a never-ending quest for form until February 6 when I gave up and reverted to almost the original tactic, albeit with no Stoppers, the ML as a W(s), and the AMC bumped up to be an AP(a) rather than on support duty (which I think may even have been an accidental mousewheel scroll, but I like it), and promptly smashed Bordeaux 3-1 which could've been 5 or 6.

Lost once in the league in the month since, and that an unlucky away 2-1 defeat to top-of-the-table Marseille. And we knocked Napoli out of the Europa in what would've been a rout rather than merely comfortable if our finishing had been better and we hadn't missed a penalty 15 minutes into the first leg.

Two months possibly needlessly winless. I'm an idiot.

[Uncle_Sam]

Barside, are you still efforting the 4-2-2-2?

[SLB]

Hi Herne,

I'd like to enter the competition. Can you please provide me with a tactic to use.

[sgevolker]

4-3-1-2 narrow - End of Season

Aber a long season we were able to finish on place 4. We were never worse then place 4, so it's a little bit pity that we can't managed to reach the CL. At the end OM an Monaco were to constant for this.

We're shooting many goals after corners, I'm really satisfied with this.

Robert Beric managed to shoot 19 goals and be the top scorer of the league. Unfortunately Fakir win's the award because he has least playing time.

In the other competitions we're doing well too, reaching the semi final in Coupe de la Ligue

Here are some additional league stats

After all it was a great experience to play with a default formation, sometimes frustrating me when I spot that the opposition exploit the weakness of the formation, but most of the time it was a lot of fun. I'm really thinking about continue this save and maybe go strikerless with it, because that's something I want to try in the next time.

[cregan]

3-4-1-2: Final Report

Season’s over and it’s not been a disaster, but then hardly a triumph either.

Ligue 1: 8th (winners: PSG ahead of Monaco and Marseille) - board expectations: top 6

Europa League: Quarter-Final (lost - badly - to Man Utd) - board expectations - 1st Playoff

Coupe de France: 10th round - board expectations: quarter-final

Coupe de la Ligue: Final (damn you, PSG ) - board expectations: quarter-final

Ligue 1 Team Overview:

Ligue 1 Player Overview:

I think we’d have made it into Europe again if I hadn’t gotten cold feet, messed with a reasonably successful system that had hit a rough patch, and gone December and January with only 2 points to show for it. And if Beric (13 goals in 20 appearances, 4 as a sub) hadn’t torn his hamstring in mid-March, ending his season just as we were picking up wins and looking unstoppable.

Roux was our best player overall. 22 goals and 11 assists in 38 league games, 35 and 12 in 55 overall, kept us afloat. Hamouma, with 20 assists in 50 games (putting both him and Roux in the top four in the league for assists), and Ruffier were the other stand-outs. Correa (loaned from Atletico; Pavard and Mitrovic in January were our two permanent signings) was anonymous in the first half of the season, both as DLF(s) and AP(s), but came alive from February onwards, finishing with 6 POM awards.

Final ‘standard’ version of the tactic:

Control/Fluid - only PIs are for Ruffier (Roll It Out, Distribute To Centre Backs, Pass Shorter)

(Occasionally, particularly to see out games late in the season, or when up against - ugh - PSG or a side I could see were sitting very deep to go long and fast on the counter, I’d switch to Defensive and add the Retain Possession and Pass Into Space TIs, which was moderately successful.)

Observations:

- The system compresses just about all the play into the opponent’s half, ideally, though the players will chase back as needed.

- We were at or near top of the league for goals scored, shooting accuracy, possession, and pass completion. As a forward unit, we were (mostly) great; if we’d been a little more clinical (with a 35-goal striker already, I know), we could’ve been even better.

- Playing right up in the opposition’s faces, always looking to push forward, this is probably the most outright front-foot system I’ve played (certainly by default) in FM.

- The gap between the defensive trio and the midfield, though, makes it hard to fill that space. Between the two BWMs and the ultra-high D-line, we were generally pretty hard to play through. However, we conceded the second highest number of fouls - often someone tackling from behind as they had to chase an opponent back - in the league, were in the top four for cards and penalties conceded, and we were very, very vulnerable to teams capable of breaking at pace.

- Long balls either from around/before the halfway line or else out wide from midway between halfway and our box (particularly the right; Hamouma’s running stats show how much chasing back he did, but as a W(a) he’d generally sit ahead of his opposing wide player, leaving space for them to run into) were a particular menace.

- The flanks weren’t the constant danger I was expecting. Both wingers charged up and down all day, and the back three gives decent width so long as the numbers aren’t overwhelming.

- The AP was much better with an Attack duty than with a Support one. More involved going forward, more mobile, and not noticeably more reluctant to track back or separated from the two BWMs behind him.

- I’ve never played two BWMs before - I’ve generally avoided them altogether as being two prone to running aimlessly around - but the combination actually works really nicely. So long as you don't mind bookings.

- The DLF(s) performed best with a tall guy in the job. Beric and even Soderlund were better than Maupay in that role (though he partly played there out of necessity once the other two were injured, and I already saw him as more of a Roux-replacement). None of the other deeper forward roles seemed as effective, though.

- Roux was to us as Bale was to Spurs in his last season there, the guy most responsible for dragging the team over the line.

Squad Limitations

I’d be interested to see how other 3-man defences work with the squad available (I had no luck playing deeper, for instance, and certainly for games against the big sides I’d have killed to be able to shunt people back into the DM strata), but I don’t think Saint-Etienne really have the personnel to make this particular formation/system work as well as it could.

- DCs need to be quick (to catch up with long balls), good in the air (to stand a chance to intercept when outnumbered), good in the tackle (again, our fouls count), and smart (so they make as few mistakes as possible). Perrin and Sall are slow, Perrin and KT-C are prone to wander, Pogba’s decision-making is poor, and in my save at least Dekoke and Karamoko aren’t good enough. Souici has promise - he picked up an injury in the spring but before then he had every big club in Europe interested in him - but no more than that.

- To counter that I bought Pavard in pre-season, and Mitrovic in January. Despite being only rated good enough for the National at the moment (though he’s got potential to be a leading Ligue 1 defender), Pavard did pretty well after a poor start, especially in the second half of the season. I’d like his Marking to be better (obviously), but that's less of a thing on Cover duty, and he’s decent otherwise and should one day be great. Mitrovic played every game after joining and was easily our best defender.

- Sall, incidentally, seemed to tail off in form as the tactic became more fluent. I wonder if his height and smarts meant that he was comparatively more reliable while everyone else was still getting used to the system, but once they were familiar with their roles he was more often the one caught out.

- With really top-notch DCs less likely to mess up and fast enough to get back when they do, though, I’d expect a much better defensive record. (For comparison, using the game's apparently wonky stats summary, in his 29 starts, Mitrovic made just one mistake leading to a goal. Pavard, Sall and KT-C, in a combined 93 starts and 36 sub appearances, made 14 between them. (Pogba did better on that count, but made a much higher number of overall mistakes.)

- The two BWMs need to be quick and hard-working (to cover the ground they protect), smart (to be in the right position to begin with), good in the tackle (again), and good with the ball (because more often than not they’re responsible for recycling second phase possession, and the BWM(s) gets forward quite a lot). Selnaes, for instance, is a fine passer and really good when we were in possession, but his poor Pace and so-so defensive traits meant he wasn’t as good going backwards as I’d have liked. He and Cohade were my regular picks, but I was never 100% happy. And all of them - Selnaes, Cohade, Clement, Pajot and Lemoine - are poor in the air, which left us - - a little short at times.

tl;dr

Chaotic at times, very, very vulnerable to better sides playing fast on the break, but capable of absolutely battering teams into submission and some brilliantly flowing football when it works. Without the cover provided by DMs, probably needs better DCs (or a better manager ) to beat the best.

If the save continues, I might try some flex against - ugh - PSG, and drop the midfield triangle back to be two DMs and an MC, but otherwise it's been frustrating at times, particularly those times where I found myself down to ten men for an hour of a match, but fun. And by the standards of 3-man defences I've struggled with in the past, reasonably successful.

[Bantamtim]

I've just got round to getting this game going after being busy with holiday and work beforehand, and I thought I had a working tactic - however, I just lost my first league game 2-1 despite dominating, with both goals coming when an opponent got wide and my left sided CB in the back 3 didn't go to close them down. How can I avoid this?

[DeekyABC]

If this is still going, I'd be quite interested to give this a go. Would it be possible to ask for a formation?

[cregan]

I've just got round to getting this game going after being busy with holiday and work beforehand, and I thought I had a working tactic - however, I just lost my first league game 2-1 despite dominating, with both goals coming when an opponent got wide and my left sided CB in the back 3 didn't go to close them down. How can I avoid this?

Short of switching to a Stopper or bumping up your closing down, there's not much you can do as far as I know (and both those have other effects). It's just a question of the player's Aggression and (I'd guess?) Decisions. It might - I've seen similar very occasionally - be the case that the midfielder in front is trying to do the closing, albeit from behind the play, and so that makes the DC sit.

[reerdo]

I can't believe I have only just got around to reading this thread. It's a cracking read and very very informative. Im struggling to get a new save going at the moment and keep flitting between teams and tactics so I know it's late to the party but are there any places left here?

[Rio_V]

I would be interested in taking a formation, too.

[poobington]

I know this was from last year but I am bumping this to see if this will be done again. It was very fun last time around.

[Fosse]

3 hours ago, poobington said:

I know this was from last year but I am bumping this to see if this will be done again. It was very fun last time around.

You could start a thread yourself?

[Jambo98]

Suppose I could do it again if people are interested. Usual challenge to pick a team   I still have the magic black box (spreadsheet) for randomly selecting formations some place........

[Fosse]

49 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

Suppose I could do it again if people are interested. Usual challenge to pick a team   I still have the magic black box (spreadsheet) for randomly selecting formations some place........

I quite like seeing the comparative success people have starting with the same team. I'm definitely interested if you decide to do another

 

[waldywaldy]

I'd be down for another round to kill the time until .3 drops

[Armistice]

This would be very interesting.

[AndySummers]

First time I've seen this thread and would certainly follow, perhaps participate, if it is something that a few managers will be involved in.

It will be interesting to see which team(s) are on offer.

I do hate to see threads like this when I am slap bang in the middle of a hugely enjoyable save though!

[Jambo98]

Seems like there is some interest, i will try and do a thread tomorrow or over the weekend. 

Meantime, thoughts on the team for the challenge? We tend to go for one of the big leagues, generally avoid England (as we all pretty much know it too well) and last year we did France. In the past, we tried to go with teams in Europa League (to give an extra aspect, but not CL as those teams tend to be real "top"). 

Spain, Italy, possibly Germany (although license issues make that one annoying unless......well, you know). Holland could be an option for some variety. 

[waldywaldy]

Italy sounds like fun, Sassuolo and Fiorentina are both pretty decent teams

[AndySummers]

Loaded up a file with the top applicable nations. Just throwing some ideas out:

Italy

On brief - Fiorentina and Sassuolo fit the European comp remit. Fiorentina have quite limited flexibility in their squad though, imo. Both do have natural sweepers, which may open up possibilities.

Wildcards - Genoa, Sampdoria and Torino all look interesting, but non-Europa.

Spain

Atletico and Celta.

Atletico have a nice selection of talent and also their Basque only ruling, which adds a dimension. Celta have a lot of talent for a club expected to finish 11th.

Germany

Hertha and Mainz.

Both have a solid spread of players/positions.

----------

Holland

AZ Alkmaar and Heracles Almelo.

Feyenoord are too overpowered for this league, arguably AZ may also be too good and less of a challenge. Heracles, predicted to finish 12th and with solid positional coverage, could be a good shout here.

Portugal

Arouca, Braga and Rio Ave.

Braga's squad is all over the place with players in/out. Rio Ave look the best option here.

Might be worth seeing if a mod can split this new challenge into a new thread? Could catch a few interested players not reading this thinking it doesn't apply.

[Jambo98]

Yeah i will start a new thread for the FM17 version shortly - Cheers for the summary of teams  

 

If we stick to teams in Europa for the additional aspect to the challenge, Sassuolo or Celta jump out for me. Fiorentina would as well, but we used them in this challenge i think on FM14 (FM15 was Villareal, then St Ettiene last year).  Athletic are a great fun side, but i confess i know them inside out as i have 2 or 3 saves with them each year. The basque element really limits the signings you can make in season 1 (as they dont have much money and can't attract most of the good basque players). 

 

[poobington]

yay! Now i just have to buy the game. i've been playing fm 2016 but this has given me a reason to buy the new one

[Jambo98]

I should get commission off Si on that 

Right, i have further improved the proprietary technology which drives the challenge for this year so we are just about good to go. New for this year, is that you will be able to see the evidence of your formation being assigned (as well as the mysterious black box in action........prepare to be underwhelmed.....)  

[Fosse]

33 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

I should get commission off Si on that 

Right, i have further improved the proprietary technology which drives the challenge for this year so we are just about good to go. New for this year, is that you will be able to see the evidence of your formation being assigned (as well as the mysterious black box in action........prepare to be underwhelmed.....)  

Can we be a little bit more flexible with signings this year Jambo? Generally it's difficult to make wholesale changes in the first window as teams have less cash because they've made most of their signings anyway. I think when implementing a completely different system being limited to just 2 transfers is a bit obstructive 

 

 

Celta would be my vote btw

[Jambo98]

1 minute ago, Fosse said:

Can we be a little bit more flexible with signings this year Jambo? Generally it's difficult to make wholesale changes in the first window as teams have less cash because they've made most of their signings anyway. I think when implementing a completely different system being limited to just 2 transfers is a bit obstructive 

That is sort of the idea though - Part of it is about how you take the players available and mould a system. Generally it is prety unlikely you need more than 3 new additions to give you enough cover across the various "positions" available. 

part of the interest last year was looking at how people used the same players in different ways. If we open up the transfers too much, it becomes as much about your transfer acumen as the tactics. Could possibly stretch to 4 total changes if everyone agrees, but for me the status quo worked pretty well for the last 3 years 

[Fosse]

1 minute ago, Jambo98 said:

That is sort of the idea though - Part of it is about how you take the players available and mould a system. Generally it is prety unlikely you need more than 3 new additions to give you enough cover across the various "positions" available. 

part of the interest last year was looking at how people used the same players in different ways. If we open up the transfers too much, it becomes as much about your transfer acumen as the tactics. Could possibly stretch to 4 total changes if everyone agrees, but for me the status quo worked pretty well for the last 3 years 

Absolutely it's about stretching the squad and fitting them into the system but normally when switching to a three at the back from a four there's quite a few changes. However we'll have to wait and see what team is chosen first 

[Jambo98]

1 minute ago, Fosse said:

Absolutely it's about stretching the squad and fitting them into the system but normally when switching to a three at the back from a four there's quite a few changes. However we'll have to wait and see what team is chosen first 

There are some differences, but most squads have versatile players - Not many players are true "one position" nowdays. There can be interesting aspects to trying a winger upfront, or a holding midfielder perhaps convered to a BPD, etc etc. 

New thread is up now, so let's see what people think