FM16 - The community formation experiment

[tinoasprilla]

is it to late to join would love a go at this probably end in tears low

[Pirlo's Beard]

Ok so starting to allocate second set of formations, since the first ones are all gone. As rashidi mentioned, its not a huge issue if 2 people end up with the same formation. So i have cleared down the black box, created a new copy and all formations are available.

Well, the idea is to draw a random formation.......but if you really want to do 442 Sweeper then i say just go for it. However i did a black box draw for you and got :

Pirlo's Beard - 3421

No no, I'll play by the rules. 3-4-2-1 it is!

Question: Should the second batch of formations also use Saint Etienne, or should we decide on a different team just to spice things up?

[Bantamtim]

Hi - if there's a second batch of formations available I'd quite like to have a go - would be interesting to try and develop something new without just going back to 4-1-4-1...

[Rashidi]

EPISODE 2 Is out it has Barsides Box and my 3421 DM. Episode 3 will have Jambos 5212 WB Sweeper and Repsalty's 4321 Narrow. Me and my bright ideas asking for pkms :-(

@segvolker You should absolutely nail the 4312 Narrow...! * pressure *pressure

*Edit :- The third episode seems to have been an unmitigated disaster.. I will need to redo the whole thing

[mydreamteam]

Just read this thread very good.....if you are doing a second batch of formations I would like to have a go....

[Rashidi]

OK so we are are going great at the moment, really want to step things up and finish the first season. After an experimental preseason, we finally decided how we were going to approach the system. Initially I thought I would be playing it much like a defensive system, but around 2 games into the season, I realized it can be extremely potent. So for some matches we started playing with an attacking mentality. How did I choose? Sometimes it was forced on me, like if we'd go a goal down and were playing badly. But mostly it had to do with the quality of the opposition. We have 3 versions of the system. Counter/Control and Attacking. Most times we play control and sometimes we switch to counter. The system plays solid with some customised PIs. The backline is very disciplined and earlier in the season I needed to move players around to see who played best where.

We usually have ratings of 6-8-7.0 in the backline, and I expect to see those ratings. So when we are doing average 6-8 is the rating I expect. The wingbacks I expect to see upwards of 7.0 in all matches and the 2 DMs are the same. So I know what kind of performances to expect. There has been a revelation of sorts in some players. Pacquet whom I have hardly used turned in nearly 9.0 performances as the lone forward which gave me a surprise. I am still expecting the boot to fall off the other foot, and I thought I'd stick up some screenies as we drive through the rest of the season.

[Rashidi]

Bah damn game crashed after the Bate win, now I gotta do it all over again!

[callamity]

Is it too late to get involved?

[heron]

So, the 'black box' gave me the 4-1-3-2 DM Narrow to play with. Too much of a diamond style play for my liking, but we'll see.

Brought in N'Diaye from Betis after he was offered to me to get some more numbers in central midfield. Played some friendlies and the first two matches of the Ligue 1 season. Lost both these matches, so the tactic still needs some tweaking... The statistics look very promising, but the results aren't there yet.

[Guest]

Bah damn game crashed after the Bate win, now I gotta do it all over again!

Easier job than my attempts at repeating the PSG result, considering downgrading my criteria to a 4 goal defeat.

[poobington]

Poobington - 4-1-3-2 DM Narrow End of Season Report

After a long hard season where we suffered several long injuries to key players we eventually finished 7th but actually won some silverware in the form of the Coup de la Ligue against Monaco. The Coup success was really at the back of my mind and completely unexpected as I was just frustrated with our poor form in the league.

Form and Tactic

Inconsistency is the word I would use to explain the performances. One day we would beat PSG or Monaco, the next day we would lose to Bastia. We seemed to struggle against teams who sat deeper and played on the counter exploiting the spaces down the wings.

Additionally a big factor behind the inconsistency was the injury to key players meaning that often I would have to think of creative ways to shoe horn different players into different roles. By the end of the save Nolan Roux had become a competent CMa in fact scoring a few goals, and Francois Clerc had become my first choice centre back.

The tactic, despite essentially being a diamond, thrived on the width provided by our wingbacks. Selnaes was excellent in rapidly switching the ball from one side of the pitch t the other were a Wb would be in acres of space, cross it to the Af who would score. At times I as tempted to play Selnaes in the deep role but too often he would hit long passes forward which our strikers were not quick enough to reach. Ultimately this was not what I wanted for the role. The DLP despite the name was there to keep the paly moving with short simple passes with the odd incisive ball. Ass the playmaker of the team he would attract the ball the most giving space to my other players, Cohade played this role very well. Selnaes' PPM to switch the ball from one flank to another was far better utilised playing on the left of the diamond as he was then actually in a position to spread it to the right.

I will probably write up a more detailed post of the tactic in action

Payer Selection

In my eyes the tactic works very well, but is entirely dependent on the quality of players. Pace in the defensive line was a crucial physical trait which unfortunately a lot of the starting defenders lacked. If we did not have Mammanan I fear we would have finished much lower. He is our most complete defender and was the first name on the team sheet. Bayal Sall and Loic Perrin were both far too slow for the high line, the latter of whom also had the Further FOrward PPm which kept on leaving him out of position with a lot of ground to cover. For large chunks of the season Theophile Caterine played centre back where his pace was a useful asset but his mental stat were not as well as only being 180m. About 3/4s of the way through the season I noticed that not only was Fracois Clerc a very accomplished defender he was 186cm making him our 2nd tallest defenders. He played well there and was a big reason behind our solid charge towards the end of the season.

With the inability to make new signings I found myself rummaging through our reserves and u19s and found 3 players who although were not rated very highly had all the skills I was looking for namely pace and good technical ability.

1. Cazim Sulijic - Of the three I have highlighted he looks to be the one with the most potential as rated by my staff. He has been attracting interest from Tottenham so we will see if a bid comes in. He hasn't had any outstanding games but performed solidly.

2. Karl Madianga - A physical box to box type I have high hopes for him as he has responded well to my tutoring and has seen his determination shoot up along with his attitude.

3. Nathan Dekoke - Has filled in a number of times and as left footed defender is useful to balance out the play when we play out the back.

[Rashidi]

Easier job than my attempts at repeating the PSG result, considering downgrading my criteria to a 4 goal defeat.

I tried once, they forced a tie. And since then, thats a common scoreline for me :-(

[Jambo98]

Sorry lots of catching up for me to do!

Hi Jambo98

stick me down for one of batch 2.

alinp - 343

is it to late to join would love a go at this probably end in tears low

tinoasprilla - 442 Diamond Narro

No no' date=' I'll play by the rules. 3-4-2-1 it is!

Question: Should the second batch of formations also use Saint Etienne, or should we decide on a different team just to spice things up?[/quote']

Saint Etienne - Its still the same challenge. We could do it all over again with a seperate team later if people want to. Its been crazy popular!

Hi - if there's a second batch of formations available I'd quite like to have a go - would be interesting to try and develop something new without just going back to 4-1-4-1...

bantamtim - 352

Just read this thread very good.....if you are doing a second batch of formations I would like to have a go....

mydreamteam - 4321 Narrow

Is it too late to get involved?

Never too late.

Callamity - 433 Narrow

[Guest]

I tried once, they forced a tie. And since then, thats a common scoreline for me :-(

I managed a 4-0 loss so took the view that it's good enough & have now carried on.

[callamity]

Never too late.

Callamity - 433 Narrow

sweet im on it

[Rashidi]

I managed a 4-0 loss so took the view that it's good enough & have now carried on.

You have more patience than me...I am now trying to zip through the games as quickly as I can.Need to finish the challenge and get back to Torino

[Guest]

I normally play with all leagues in full detail so patience has never been an issue, running this with top divisions of the main European leagues. Had we not started with top rep manager profiles I might have considered continuing with this as a new career game but I'd not find that as enjoyable.

[Fosse]

5122 DM narrow isn't a great formation, even playing on control with exploit the middle active getting the strikers enough support from midfield is proving to be challenging. The wingback provide the width but are usually doubled up on and their crosses are the source of our goals but the crossing success is mixed at best. Defensively the system is reasonably solid but that's the trade off with having a blunt attack.

[wereldbol]

any room left?

[Jambo98]

any room left?

wereldbol - 5122 DM Narrow (ironically the one commented on in the post above )

[cregan]

Formation: 3-4-1-2 - analysing our defensive horrors

We’re really struggling (16th with 19 played, and I’ve just beaten Monaco 2-1 to keep myself in the job after a “the next game will be better” promise to the board). Part of that is my fault in terms of selection and instructions early on, but part of that is, I think, down to the formation and its weaknesses in defence. Without anyone in the DM strata to cover, particularly down the flanks, and with the three DCs habitually spread wide, there’s acres of space for attackers to run into, even when playing with a deep D-line.

We have particular trouble against wide formations. 4-4-2 is especially menacing, with 4-1-2-3-DM Wide and 4-2-3-1 Wide not much better.

Here’s why. In all these examples, we’re playing Defensive/Structured, with three CD-Ds and a midfield four left to right of DW-D CM-S CM-D and DW-S, and the TI Drop Deeper (along with Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defence and Low Crosses, none of which matter much in these examples). I ended up trying Defensive because we were leaking too many with more adventurous mentalities and not scoring enough to make up for it. It hasn’t helped much; this is a shape that should be solid, if dull. We’ve got the latter down to a tee, but the former, not so much.

In this image, we’ve been on the attack. Angers are playing a deep-set 4-4-2. Maupay has just been tackled by Thomas, who’s tapped it to Ketkeo (Angers’ MR). Yattara is already turning to run inside Theophile-Catherine if he gets the long ball over the top. Our D-line - which is set lower than the default for Defensive/Structured anyway - has a ton of room behind it still, and a good ball into the shaded area means a free run on goal for Yattara, with their no. 10 following up for support, and there’s very little we can do about it; Mammana is facing towards the ball, and even K-TC is slower on the turn than his opponent.

In the match, this is exactly what happens. Ketkeo’s ball is a great one, Yattara latches on to it and leaves everyone for dead, then smashes it past Ruffier into the net.

The second half. An attack has broken down, but this time we’ve had plenty of time (about 10 seconds on the match clock) to get back into position while Angers passed it around at the back. Again, this is a lower defensive line from an already low base.

Our three-man central defence is spread out over more than half the pitch. Our MR (a DW-S) is covering the pass to their ML well, but out left, no. 32 Assou-Ekotto (DW-D) is facing infield, ignoring their MR, and in the meanwhile Theophile-Catherine, no. 2, is protecting nothing and no one when he could be getting closer to Mammana and trying to keep their no.9 shielded. Cohade, our CM-D at no. 10, is at least blocking the ground pass in to the front two, and perhaps will track no. 28 if he makes a run, but otherwise he’s not helping much.

If Bouka-Moutou punts it long, look at the space to run the Angers no. 9, 10 and 14 have. With K-TC out of the action, Assou-Ekotto asleep and no one else in a position to get back, Angers could have an easy three-against-two, with their no. 9 particularly dangerous if he turns Mammana.

In the match, Bouka-Moutou tries the long pass for no. 9 to run onto, but thankfully it’s too low and Cohade cuts it out.

Another broken-down attack, this time from a truly awful 0-0 against Rennes, who were playing a little more Standard-ish, still 4-4-2. Again we’ve had a nice little while to get into shape after losing the ball while Rennes passed it around between themselves. Andre has options - particularly to his left - but look at where their two strikers are sitting. They’ve actually been jockeying around with our three centre-backs while they wait, always aiming (sensibly) to be sitting neatly between them. Again, a good long ball and we’re in real trouble. Likewise, our DW-D, Tabanou this time, has let their MR get behind him. He might be trying to prevent the pass, but if so his angle’s wrong and all their no. 6 needs to do is make the run shown and no one’s going to stop him getting the ball. Then we’ve got a three-on-three with their two strikers ideally placed for the diagonal ball into the middle.

In the game, Andre tries that exact pass but fluffs it and Pogba is able to head it out for a throw.

Similar things happen against a 4-2-3-1 as well. Here’s Lyon:

We’re midway through a 3-0 battering; I haven’t yet switched up to Counter (which failed dismally; they scored their third afterwards and we barely had a sniff of goal). Ruffier has just punted it aimlessly downfield (after a pass back from a Lyon attack breaking down) right where their DR can pick it up. We’re reasonably set in terms of our defensive shape, such as it ever is, and look at the result in that red box.

Clerc, no. 29, is doing a decent job of shepherding their AMR. Cohade, no. 10, is watching their AMC. Not so bad so far. But while Mammana in the centre of our back three is reasonably close to their no. 10 Lacazette, he’s let him get behind him and Perrin at no. 4 is doing his best to keep him onside. No one’s paying any attention to their AML, and our two DWs, Hamouma and Assou-Ekotto, are both tucked in on the halfway line without a care in the world. Pajot, no. 5, is advancing, not covering anyone behind him. The result is four-against-four on any long ball forward.

In the game, that’s exactly what happens (a long ball to Lacazette, who knocks it to the on-rushing no. 13). Mammana manages to block the resulting shot, but they score from the corner that follows because no one marks Lacazette.

Solutions?

I have no clear idea, beyond ‘have better defenders’. A decent DC in this system needs to have good pace, aerial ability, and mental attributes because the amount of protection they get from even the most defensive of midfielders is basically zero. (This was one of the key mistakes I’ve made this season: playing Perrin, and ditching K-TC. He’s a good leader, and I’d have no problem with him in a system that had four at the back or a three with cover from DM/WB, but in this formation he misses so many interceptions as he’s not tall enough with his Jumping 11 and can’t chase anyone back with his Pace 10, that even his solid mental attributes aren’t enough.)

Playing a Control/Fluid version we at least scored more, but were so, so, so vulnerable to long diagonal balls off the flanks in particular that I gave up on that as an approach. Maybe it’s the only way to go; forget defence altogether. I’m not quite sure how we’d ever get the ball back to launch attacks, but still.

I’m tempted to start over (or after pre-season if I’ve got an old save hanging around), just to see if going gung-ho and adjusting my team selection - and not having so many dreadful injuries - improves matters. Not that it could go much worse… I'm also curious to see how the 3-4-3 entrants play out; I've never been good with three-man defences so maybe I'm just missing something blindingly obvious/am as utterly incompetent as opposing managers keep claiming in press conferences.

[Jambo98]

Ouch, i feel your pain cregan, a somewhat similar setup to my own.

I have proven pretty well in this challenge that i am miles away from an expert, but a few thoughts occur reading your post:

1) In some ways, the scenarios you have in the screenshots are a bit unavoidable. Out of interest, maybe hive off a save and play a game or two with a 442 or a 4123 (one of the popular "normal" formations) and try to pause at similar times. I think you will always find a that strikers will have space in behind, the only way to prevent it would be with an ever deeper and deeper line. In some ways, visually its more noticeable because there are 3 DCs and the gaps between them seem more obvious than with 2 DCs, but on the whole sometimes you need to accept that it will look like there is space in behind, but you can limit how much use they get out of it

2) To that end, i am not sure i would be going "structured" with a formation with no DM. Structured is going to increase the space between your lines (which is then exacerbated by the deeper Dline coming from the defensive mentality). This means that the opposing midfield have space to play in, which means the space in behind is going to get used, because they have time and space to pick a pass. I would be more inclined to move towards flexible or even fluid, to reduce the space between the lines and compensate for the lack of a DM

3) Likewise, i would do something that will feel counter intuative given your probems as you see them. I would push the Dline further up, quite a bit further up (either via change in team mentality, or the TI). Squeeze the game. Potentially even add the offside trap as some of the DC's have good mentals. Throw in a sweeper keeper. Look at it this way, if your already getting done over the top / in behind with a deep line...........

4) I might somewhat balance it by having the central DC "cover". You could even go with Stopper Cover Stopper but in my mind, i struggle a bit to analyse how the stopper plays so i am not comfortable using it - you might not have that issue.

5) The 2 x CMs are going to be quite key as well, as they are your best hopes of a "shield". I am honestly not to sure how i would do this. In my shape, i have a similar issue (no DM, 2 man CM only) but i do have wingbacks rather than wide midfielders. This means i tend to play with one player as a shield, the other as a shuttle. With 2 wide players in the middle strata, i might even look at a 2 man Shield. CM(d) seems a good option, probably for Cohade. You might even consider something like DLP for Selnaes. You could alternate him between defend and support duty based on what you see in games (with both on defend the risk is a gap between middle and front, depending on duties further up. The change to team shape might close this somewhat).

6) Getting the DW to defend looks to be a problem and afraid i have no experience of it this year. Them narrowing is something i have an issue with even with wingbacks. As bad as it looks at times, i am not sure it genuinely causes too many goals for me (the odd one for sure). The higher dline might have a knock on effect though, giving them less ground to cover?

Just thoughts - i might be totally wrong on some....my track record on FM16 is less than stellar!

[Jean0987654321]

wellmade - 4231 DM Narrow (this should be different from the 4231 narrow which jean0987654321 got)

Cregan - 3412

Check the reserves for one guy who is decent enough for a backup (cant recall the name, but i think he is DLC and african!) Also one of the DM's (might be Pajot) is capable of playing at the back. I have a back 3 formation also!

A graphic is waaaaay beyond my ability ( / effort level ) - If you whip one up, and want me to add it to the OP let me know

Fraser - 4411 2 DM (We agreed to exclude 4411, but this is a different formation - and an interesting one actually)

1. - The idea was for a single season, as it was just a "quick blast". However in past years many people have continue on past that (i didnt - last year i didnt get into Villareal, and the first year i lost the league title with litterally the last kick of the ball in the last game of the season which scarred me too much to continue!). I think following the "rules" for season 1 allows quite a good baseline / comparison, but then if people want to continue on past season 1 and perhaps have the signing restrictions relaxed, so they can really build a squad around their formation, that would be cool.

2 - We can do. The idea was that if we are doing one season it would make little difference (might moderately impact the difficulty of the Europa) but if your going beyond one season then yes it starts to impact. The reason i didnt fix them is i did not see it as a true "contest" as such, but if we want to say that list, maybe add England?

Yup we are all playing as St Etienne (btw - if anyone is my generation and can see that team name and not sing "slyvieee" is just wrong )

The video stuff sounds awesome. Once i get up and running i will send a pkm or 2. I have not yet started. Still working a bit on the Lazio save that i got a lot of help from the forum on!

If you're talking about Pogba's brother, then I already promoted him to the first team but bought two CBs already.

[Jambo98]

I just re-started for about the 4th time

I took a slightly different approach to the roles / duties and TI this time, felt pretty ok pre-season. Watched the first europa round in detail to make some tweaks and it looked great, flowing fast football, even taking account of the level of opposition.

First league game, as always is Toulouse. The 442 narrow diamond is ripe for problems against us, since they can massively over run is in the middle. But we felt like we had the basis of something so wasnt too bad.

Result. Folded like a house of cards. Lost 4 v 1. Could have been 4 v 0 down in the first 20mins. What previously looked fast and flowing, now looked rushed and lacking composure. What previously looked a solid base, looked like a soggy gingerbread house on boxing day.

To be fair, as crushing as it was, the result didnt tell the full story. The first half hour was a disaster, but after 2 down i made some big changes, going to much more direct style to move the ball into the wide spaces quicker, and we were a bit transformed,got back to 2 v 1 and created some chances. Second half fizzled out and we conceded a crazy OG and a soft penalty.

It is definitely my Achilles heel with this system and with FM 16 though. I can read how things are going in one game, make tweaks to build a lovely system......but its never sustainable match to match. I must be doing things which only apply to specific opponents strengths / weakness and never actually creating a good strong base tactic. Will see if i can give this a longer go.

[Rashidi]

I now never play offside in a 3 man defence. Granted my 3421DM has the benefit on wingbacks, I changed my 3 man configuration so that they wouldn't get caught out of position.

Perrin is hopelessly inconsistent in the middle. I prefer Bayar Sall over him. His interceptions are pure genius.

I play with a Def Cover Def configuration. And definitely with a pushed up dline even when I playing counter.

The only differences are my shape. I exploit the pace of my attack with structured for counter mentality. And, go fluid for control and attack.

With a third of the season left, we're second on the table, having beaten Lyon.

3 man defences are fun. I really want to steam to the end and switch over to Torino.

My preferred backline looks like

Pogba/Sall/Souci or Perrin

[poobington]

Perrin unfortunately has the Gets Further Forward PPM, and especially in my Very Fluid system I find him wandering far too out of position.

[Jambo98]

I now never play offside in a 3 man defence. Granted my 3421DM has the benefit on wingbacks, I changed my 3 man configuration so that they wouldn't get caught out of position.

Perrin is hopelessly inconsistent in the middle. I prefer Bayar Sall over him. His interceptions are pure genius.

I play with a Def Cover Def configuration. And definitely with a pushed up dline even when I playing counter.

The only differences are my shape. I exploit the pace of my attack with structured for counter mentality. And, go fluid for control and attack.

With a third of the season left, we're second on the table, having beaten Lyon.

3 man defences are fun. I really want to steam to the end and switch over to Torino.

My preferred backline looks like

Pogba/Sall/Souci or Perrin

Sorry if this is a basic question man, but at the moment i cannot figure out even the most basic functions of this ME.......

How do you find that using structured helps exploit the pace of your attack specifically? Structured moves your strikers futher up the field as a starting point, is that right? So does it encourage him to be on the shoulder (even though he is DLF i think?).

Likewise, would you mind talking me through why you would then change to fluid as you increase your team mentality?

[the_gaffa]

I'm now exactly at the halfway point in the season with my 424 DM Wide and this is how we're currently lining up:

Tactics

In terms of changes, I've switched to an attacking, high tempo, high press system. Originally, I was using a somewhat cautious "standard" mentality with not much pressing going on. This was good at keeping things solid at the back but it didn't really threaten the opposition goal as much as I'd really like. With attacking, we do concede a bit more (as you'd expect) but we look far more dangerous in the final third. Also, I feel it's a risk I can take given that I'm using four defenders on defend duty and two holding midfielders!

With player roles, I've settled on a false 9 with a complete forward upfront. The 424 DM Wide suffers from a huge gap in the middle of the park (between the DMCs and the forwards). The false 9 will drop into this space and create some great chances for the complete forward and the wingers. I'd say that this he's probably the most important player in the side and this role can be deadly if you get a good creative passer in this spot.

The rest of the roles have in my side have remained the same. I've tried not over complicate things and the only player instructions I've added are "roam from position" for the forwards. I wanted them to be unpredictable to the opposition and also drop into the midfield "gap" when necessary.

Results

Aside from a 1-5 battering by PSG and a blip against Angers, I'm pretty happy with how things are going. League and domestic cup form is good, with an epic 4-3 revenge win over PSG and an extremely satisfying 3-1 away victory at Monaco. Unfortunately we didn't qualify for the Europa League knockout stages after finishing third in a tough group which contained Napoli and Liverpool. To be fair, I used a lot of squad rotation in Europe and this probably didn't help things.

League

Delighted to be sat in second spot with half of the season gone. Just hoping I can avoid too many injuries (tempting fate!) and keep it going. Big shout out to Neal Maupay too for competing with Zlatan for the league's top scorer (despite being injured for two months!). Not bad for a player who was sat in the reserves at the start of the season.

Thoughts

Really enjoying this challenge and it's really interesting to see other FM'ers take on things. Looking forward to seeing how it all pans out for everyone (myself included!).

[cregan]

Ouch, i feel your pain cregan, a somewhat similar setup to my own.

The lack of a ‘sadnod’ smiley on the forums disappoints me.

Thanks for the thoughts, Jambo. You’re right that they will happen, of course, it’s just the regularity of it that grates. But I’ll come on to the suggestions down below, because interestingly, that’s pretty much exactly the system I started the season with. Three up front always looked like a better bet for a high press, gung-ho approach than trying to sit back; results forced me to tighten up.

Perrin is hopelessly inconsistent in the middle. I prefer Bayar Sall over him. His interceptions are pure genius.

I play with a Def Cover Def configuration. And definitely with a pushed up dline even when I playing counter.

…

My preferred backline looks like

Pogba/Sall/Souci or Perrin

Completely agree. Sall was doing OK (albeit out at DCL because I was hoping Perrin would come good) thanks to being so very, very good in the air, but mid-October he asked for a transfer saying he’d achieved all he could at the club. I’ve mostly been playing Pogba/Perrin (and now Mammana)/Mammana (and now KT-C, who doesn’t seem quite as prone to wandering as Perrin, or the youngster I signed from Lille, Pavard).

Def-Cover-Def is what I started with too.

In the beginning…

Initially, we had SK-d or SK-s, with a back three of CD-d / BPD-c / CD-d (either Pogba or Sall / Perrin / Mammana), and a midfield four of W-s / CM-s / DLP-d / W-a, playing Control/Fluid with Push Higher, Close Down More (or possibly even Much More), Mark Tighter and Stop Short GK Distribution. I didn’t play an offside trap with a cover-duty defender, since I’ve always regarded that as a recipe for disaster.

The system was less vulnerable to hopeful through-balls, with the midfield tighter and fewer open spaces in front of the defensive trio (though you’re right; still plenty behind).

Here’s some examples from our 2-1 defeat to Lorient.

Tannane (24) has been tackled and Lorient have played it back to their keeper. We’ve had a few seconds to pull back into defensive phase. The back three are shifted right because that’s the side we were attacking down, and have tightened up their spacing from their cross-field split when we have the ball. (As they drift across, though, the marking on the two Lorient STs will go and they’ll be free in the gaps between again.) Cohade, at CM-d, is doing his usual covering job.

Out left, Tabanou, a W-s, is probably not in a bad position, albeit I’d like him a little closer to their MR. But he’s facing the wrong way; the MR is already running forward and Tabanou’s still ball-watching. Hamouma, at W-a on the right-hand side, is running back to shadow the ML. Could be tighter, but could also be worse. Note too that as AM-a, Corgnet’s sitting on top of the DLF-s even though both have had already some time to sort themselves out. This was a perennial problem, and why I switched to a less adventurous AM-s (who then, on Fluid, tended to sit on top of the CM-s instead, but at least that felt like a better place to double-up if you were going to).

In the game, the GK drops it to feet, dallies with it a while, and then hits it long towards their no. 12. Pogba cuts it out and we get a decent chance on the counter.

It’s better, then, against that kind of threat. (Unless Perrin goes for a walk, of course; he was prone to charging out to close down like a stopper, leaving a hole behind because the other two would never close up tighter when he did.) It struggles, though, against the raking diagonal. This isn’t the most standout example (we’ve conceded a lot of goals, so finding a good one would take me longer than I can really afford) as it’s as much Lorient’s good play as anything else, but it’s where Lorient got their winner and it shows the trouble we had when pressing more.

This attack started down our right flank, and a ball over the top of Clerc (on at W-a for Hamouma; I can’t remember if I switched him to W-s since he’s more defensive) to their ML, followed by a series of blocks and switches to take it out to their MR, no. 8. He’s got the overlap from their DR, who’s unmarked, but opts to lay it back to Mesloub.

As soon as the ball’s laid back, everyone pushes up. We’ve got four midfielders heading towards him (maybe three if I give Tabanou the benefit of the doubt and say he’s gone to mark no. 8) [edit: just noticed I've got an arrow wrong. #13 is Tabanou, not #19, Pogba]. The three centre-backs have all pushed up from just inside the box (Perrin, moments before, was playing both then-unmarked strikers onside). Clerc, no. 29, is taking a quiet nap in the sun.

With everyone else either dozing or running like schoolkids for the ball, it’s Perrin and Mammana trying to cover their two strikers (both marked pretty well, although with the DCs facing forward they’re going to have a hard time turning when the play switches), the Lorient no. 13 and the Lorient no. 14, Guerreiro, who’s onside and completely unmarked.

Mesloub chooses right and hits it up to Guerreiro, and he rushes into the box. Mammana tries to come back to cover but Perrin (no. 4) and everyone else react too late, and he’s got two players in great position for the cut-back, and an on-rushing CM-a to pick up the pieces. Waris is the lucky beneficiary and slots it home easily.

This kind of thing happened a lot. Either our wide men would close an opposition wide midfielder and miss their tackle or allow the ML/MR to slip past, or the opposing AML/R where they’d line up next to our DCL/DCR and if they got the ball could flick it quickly into the middle where there’d inevitably be the ST and other wide AM running on.

The main reason I stepped back first to Flexible and then to Structured was to keep the three DCs in place. Pogba, Perrin and K-TC (when he came back into the team) all have ’Gets Forward Whenever Possible’, and all of them, particularly Perrin, were prone to wander up the pitch under Fluid only to be caught out by a quick break.

Here’s the results before I switched:

Ignoring the Europa, where we’ve been consistently much better than Ligue 1, that’s a record of P6 W1 D1 L4 F10 A14, and that win against a Bastia side rooted in the relegation zone even then. After the Nantes game I was summoned to a meeting to explain our poor performance and managed to placate the board with a plea that we’d just been unlucky (lies).

Knowing we needed to improve, I swapped to Counter/Flexible, with a GK-d behind a simple backline of three CD-d and a midfield of DW-s / CM-s / CM-d / DW-s, with Drop Deeper, Pass Shorter (to keep the ball when not on the counter) and (IIRC) no other TIs. The idea being both to shore up the defence and to hopefully help trigger counters by drawing the opposition on. We’d been much better late in the CSKA game using a similar set of tweaks, so I figured it might work, and having had a secondary counter tactic in training since the start there were no familiarity issues.

Things started well, with two wins on the bounce and clean sheets into the bargain. By the time we’d had four defeats on the bounce and the Lyon game (P6 W2 D0 L4 F8 A12), I was under pressure again and tried to steady the ship further, going to the Defensive/Structured mix with one DW-d as it is now.

Lyon still thumped us and media rumours were than I needed to beat Marseille to keep the job, which I did. Form has improved (and ignore that 1-6 Rijeka result; we were fixed in second place in the group by then so I played kids and reservists) on the face of it - P7 W2 D3 L2 F6 A8 - but I still had another board meeting after Angers, meaning win-or-bust in Monaco.

We’re also playing dreadful football. That 0-0 with Rennes has literally no pale blue ‘important highlights’ marks on the match time bar, and while results have been a little better that’s at least partially been luck.

What about the D-line?

One thing I have noticed when going back through old matches, and grabbing the images: there’s little to no difference at all in D-line between the two shapes/systems, despite having diametrically-opposed instructions.

Here’s an overlay (flipped because we were attacking different ends) of the positions of our DCs vs. Rennes playing Defensive/Structured/Drop Deeper on top of their positions against Lorient playing Control/Fluid/Push Higher, in both cases when we were waiting for a long ball out of their defence from a roughly equivalent position. (Exactly the same scale, incidentally; the pitch at Rennes was slightly longer according to the screen grabs, but I matched up the centre line and circle.)

Rennes positions highlighted in blue (with their mirror-numbered red strikers in between). Our deeper, defensive D-line is ahead of our control, pushed-up one. Cohade was much further forward, on the far edge of the centre circle and out of this picture against Rennes thanks to Structured spacing out the lines more, but otherwise the positions are nigh-identical, if anything further advanced under the more defensive, non-pressing system. It’s not an isolated example, either; that seems to be much the way of it. Which is baffling the hell out of me.

If Structured increases spacing between defence-midfield-attack I’d have expected it to do so evenly, so the defenders drop deeper, the strikers push higher, the midfield stay roughly the same, stretching the team across the length of the pitch. Here at least they’re all just shunting forwards.

4) I might somewhat balance it by having the central DC “cover”. You could even go with Stopper Cover Stopper but in my mind, i struggle a bit to analyse how the stopper plays so i am not comfortable using it - you might not have that issue.

5) The 2 x CMs are going to be quite key as well, as they are your best hopes of a “shield”. I am honestly not to sure how i would do this. In my shape, i have a similar issue (no DM, 2 man CM only) but i do have wingbacks rather than wide midfielders. This means i tend to play with one player as a shield, the other as a shuttle. With 2 wide players in the middle strata, i might even look at a 2 man Shield. CM(d) seems a good option, probably for Cohade. You might even consider something like DLP for Selnaes. You could alternate him between defend and support duty based on what you see in games (with both on defend the risk is a gap between middle and front, depending on duties further up. The change to team shape might close this somewhat).

6) Getting the DW to defend looks to be a problem and afraid i have no experience of it this year. Them narrowing is something i have an issue with even with wingbacks. As bad as it looks at times, i am not sure it genuinely causes too many goals for me (the odd one for sure). The higher dline might have a knock on effect though, giving them less ground to cover?

I’m wondering now about trying, like you say, a sort of midfield ‘hoover’, either one or two DCs on Stopper (depending on if it’s a two or one man attack) figuring we’re going to get caught out anyway so may as well go for broke, and going hell for leather down the wings. Maybe a BWM-d/BWM-s or BWM-s/CM-d combo in the two centre-mids with Corgnet as an AP-a or AP-s ahead of them to make a central triangle, both flanks as W-a, and the DLF-s/CF-a combo up front that’s been doing OK for us so far.

Control/Fluid (Attack’s probably a bit much), press and push as much as possible, and try for the 4-3 win each time. Hmm...

[the_gaffa]

Just hoping I can avoid too many injuries (tempting fate!)....

The very next match after that comment ...

D'oh!

[Jambo98]

So on my 4th attempt (On the 3rd attempt i watched an early game for the full 90mins, taking nearly 3 pages A4 notes, used those notes to adjust......promptly lost 4 games in a row and decided i had wasted enough time...........turns out not!).

My start to the season so far.....

Quite simply brutal. Managed my usual, a very good performance and 3 v 0 win away from home at a very decent Goteburg side, sandwiched between embarrassing and meek league defeats.

Perhaps starting on Touch would be a good idea, get rid of the tactical familiarity penalty. Might make some difference but not enough i suspect to save me.

[Rashidi]

So the shoes fallen off the other foot. We've finally discovered our bogey team - MONACO. Our 26 game unbeaten run came to an end at the hands TWICE in a row. Back to back defeats. YAY! Through a combination of impatience and just bad performances, we finally produced a match worthy of derision. The boys made way too many mistakes. Loic Perrin was shambolic and their manager, well he was just sitting on the sidelines, quietly cheering Monaco on. We need to lose, it had become too arcady. For nearly 10 games our scoreline read like a binary code sequence 101010101001001011.

The tactic is solid, I'm happy. It needs players, but it also needs patience, love and understanding - expensive commodities at the moment.

It was a defeat that came after wins over Lyon and PSG. A defeat that has knocked us off the perch, we didn't deserve to be sitting up there with match stats that look like this

I am just glad we lost, episode 4 has me remarking that this game is beginning to look strangely arcady. Those words were prophetic. And to be honest, I am glad we lost. Now it looks a bit more realistic.

[callamity]

So looked at the 433 narrow over night and it brought back a wee memory of see barca playing with eto'o henry and messi up front, and I thought I would start by trying to have st ettiene play in a similar manner. Obviously the players are not at that level but why not give it a go. so this is what I decided to begin with the easy road to possession.

Counter mentality - fluid due to the use of one playmaker the advanced playmaker at left cm. the instructions explain themselves high line, pressing and shorter passing to hopefully retain possession.

the wider forwards are complete forward on support and will be expected to mark the fullbacks to try and mitigate the weakness of this formation, width and prevent isolation of the wingbacks. we will see if this works or not later and the goalscorer is the advanced forward. I will try to go into more detail when I get a few more games under my belt and see what changes I need to make.

[callamity]

first 10 competitive games results have been ok, unfortunately out of europe on away goal rule. however the advanced forward neal maupay has 13 goals to his name and has played 8 games.

[simji13]

Does anyone else have the problem that nearly every player is coming to me and asking if first team games. I'm only 9 games into the season and have at least 6 players moaning about lack of games and 2 more wanting to leave to a new club. Definitely going to affect morale soon.

[Guest]

Nope, only one is the #2 keeper in late October.

[Rashidi]

Alright 6 episodes cut and edited. These are the guys whose tactics have been featured in no particular order. Videos go into a new show in the order that I receive them

Jambo98

Barside

Repsalty

Waldywaldy

Jean0987654321

summatsupper

sgevolker

to be edited in:

Poobington

Once Poobington's pkm is in and if my season is done, that will be it, unless i get some more pkms in. There are potentially 3 more shows to go. Once again I'd like to thank everyone for sending them in, it was fun watching your pkms, hope the comments are taken the right way, I was just trying to provide some insight.

[Guest]

Excellent work on the shows, hopefully the others will be up sometime this morning.

Hit a rough patch in my save with a few too many draws & silly defeats which has seen us drop to 11th in the league however we're 5 points off 5th & have played a game less than everyone ahead of us, also just beaten a pretty full strength PSG 2-1 in the Coupe de la Ligue with a dominating performance that saw us have 63% possession & 18 attempts to 8. Also through to the KO rounds in the Europa league with Celtic awaiting us in the new year so hopeful that we can at least reach the 2nd KO round.

[poobington]

Very excited for your video Rashidi! I have actually been inspired to continue my career with St Etienne with the aim of building a team of complete playeers.

Just some thoughts

Selnaes is a fantastic player and I just cant get over how good he is. He's never really the top assister but nearly always is the one to hit the crossfield pass which switches play and catches the opposition off guard. He was a great player for me in Fm2014 along with Fredrik Midstjo from Rosenborg and certainly brings back some Nostalgia.

[Guest]

One thing that I have taken from this challenge is that the FB(s) is a bit of a nightmare with the locked in Cross from Deep PI, will be suggesting that SI remove that from the role profile.

[Rashidi]

Excellent work on the shows, hopefully the others will be up sometime this morning.

.

Episode 4 just went up today, 5 is tomorrow and 6 is the following day

[Guest]

Just watching now. I was surprised by the joy you took from the opener against PSG, that's the exact type of goal I am actively trying to avoid scoring due to the flawed defending when doubling up on an isolated wide player, for me it makes those scenarios far too overpowered for the attacking side & while I can make tactical decision to reduce the risk when my side is defending the AI managers really struggle to cope.

[Jambo98]

Yup just watched the first part of Episode 3 (featuring my tactic) - Brilliant stuff as always Rashidi. You were, as expected, spot on in terms of the challenges, and strengths of my formation. I might look at it again, particularly around closing down settings on the wingbacks. I suspect that i have been "burnt" by the challenges which crossing presents in FM16 (nothing to do with this particular save) which has almost hard coded into my brain that fullbacks need to be closing down opposing wide men to prevent crosses, other wise you concede a bucket load. That might still be true in a back 4, but i should perhaps look at it differently in a back 3 / WB scenario.

You also right point out that one of the big strengths can be using fast transitions to take advantage of having 3 men high up the pitch. I found i somewhat lack the players to do this with great effect, but it was something i looked to exploit where possible.

Just watching the rest of it now - thanks again for the huge effort you put into producing all these videos, has really taken this challenge / experiment to the next level this year

[Rashidi]

Just watching now. I was surprised by the joy you took from the opener against PSG, that's the exact type of goal I am actively trying to avoid scoring due to the flawed defending when doubling up on an isolated wide player, for me it makes those scenarios far too overpowered for the attacking side & while I can make tactical decision to reduce the risk when my side is defending the AI managers really struggle to cope.

3

I am confused, I haven't shown your PSG game yet I think. I just received those

[Guest]

I meant your PSG match in episode 4.

[Rashidi]

I really wonder whether I should leave this in...I recorded it.. Its the start of the second half of a gripping Europa tie. My commentary:

It's a tight affair anyone could break this, Akotu is brought down, we'll need to bring someone on....PLEASE DON CRASH"...game crashes...My stream name is Propheto :-(((((((

[Rashidi]

I meant your PSG match in episode 4.

I hadn't event noticed, ah well all's fair when the AI can do it to :-)

[Rashidi]

Ah just seen that...yeah that AI tactic was set up wrongly.

[Jean0987654321]

Did you miss me when I was gone? Me neither. But here is my progress with my formation

Shocking yes. I got sacked after the last game. I do not think I can achive much success with my formation

- I needed to overhaul the entire squad if I wanted to play a narrow shape

I got too many wingers I needed to retrain. Might've been better to move some on but I could not replace them.

- I only have TWO good center backs.

Yes, I brought in two new ones but the entire squad needed new faces front to back

- My wingbacks were on an island on their own when defending

As they were the only ones that were out wide, I was at a disadvantage and the crossing bug added insult to injury as well.

I'll be ready when a new experiment is set to go but for now, I wanna get ManU to win the CL

[Wellmade]

I'll give a full update tomorrow but I just thought I'd post and let you know I am still working away on this. To the point I have just escaped my 3rd Board Interrogation..... and I am only in December..