Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

16 hours ago, A.Pierfrancesco said:

When you talk about using these role for the individual training (which, by the way are the same used by me), it means that you rotate each player with that training program or you use BPD only for defender, DLP and RPM for midfielder etc... ?

The latter. BPD for my defenders, DLP or Roaming Playmaker in midfield depending on role, Complete Forward for attackers.

Lately I have noticed that a lot of my squads end up on Roaming Playmaker, particularly during early development. Then Ball-Winning Midfielder plus Stamina if they need to improve their pressing (they always moan but 2-3 point improvement in work-rate and stamina is worth it).

[A.Pierfrancesco]

2 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

The latter. BPD for my defenders, DLP or Roaming Playmaker in midfield depending on role, Complete Forward for attackers.

Lately I have noticed that a lot of my squads end up on Roaming Playmaker, particularly during early development. Then Ball-Winning Midfielder plus Stamina if they need to improve their pressing (they always moan but 2-3 point improvement in work-rate and stamina is worth it).

Yeah, actually is what I do. If I see that some players need an upgrade in Positioning and Work-Rate I put them in the BWM individual training. I've also find out that is better to put Advanced players like AMR/L into CF individual training as it covers more attributes than IF or AP individual training

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

11 minutes ago, A.Pierfrancesco said:

Yeah, actually is what I do. If I see that some players need an upgrade in Positioning and Work-Rate I put them in the BWM individual training. I've also find out that is better to put Advanced players like AMR/L into CF individual training as it covers more attributes than IF or AP individual training

Precisely.

[TacticNewb]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I use your sacchi tactic with a few of my own tweaked variations and was just wondering what roles did you use for training per position? I usually go for AM or AP for the attacking midfielder role but I've noticed they don't progress as well as others?

Gk - sweeper keeper

Cbs - ball playing defender

Fb & wb - complete wing back

Wm & w - wide midfielder

Dlp & cm - roaming playmaker

Am - as discussed

Cf - complete forward.

These are my usual individual training roles. Do you also use the same roles for your youth development or are they geared towards training different attributes?

My general training is kept on balanced for my first team and fitness for my youth team all year every year.

Apologies if this has been previously discussed and also for the length of the post.

[alinp]

so....

this...

Barca tonight??

[BadAss88]

6 hours ago, StevenCopland said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I use your sacchi tactic with a few of my own tweaked variations and was just wondering what roles did you use for training per position? I usually go for AM or AP for the attacking midfielder role but I've noticed they don't progress as well as others?

Gk - sweeper keeper

Cbs - ball playing defender

Fb & wb - complete wing back

Wm & w - wide midfielder

Dlp & cm - roaming playmaker

Am - as discussed

Cf - complete forward.

These are my usual individual training roles. Do you also use the same roles for your youth development or are they geared towards training different attributes?

My general training is kept on balanced for my first team and fitness for my youth team all year every year.

Apologies if this has been previously discussed and also for the length of the post.

I use the same roles and shadow striker for the AM, I mostly dislike that there's no (D)MC-role that doesn't train everything..

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

16 hours ago, StevenCopland said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I use your sacchi tactic with a few of my own tweaked variations and was just wondering what roles did you use for training per position? I usually go for AM or AP for the attacking midfielder role but I've noticed they don't progress as well as others?

Gk - sweeper keeper

Cbs - ball playing defender

Fb & wb - complete wing back

Wm & w - wide midfielder Wide Playmaker or Defensive Winger

Dlp & cm - Deep-lying Playmaker for the holding role & roaming playmaker

Am - as discussed

Cf - complete forward.

These are my usual individual training roles. Do you also use the same roles for your youth development or are they geared towards training different attributes?

My general training is kept on balanced for my first team and fitness for my youth team all year every year.

Apologies if this has been previously discussed and also for the length of the post.

Just amended your list with exactly what I use.

[Fred Zeppelin]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Thank you for this, it's beautiful football. 

Would you believe I tried this with Villa, with slight adjustments, and it worked perfectly right out of the box? Smashed Newcastle 5-1 at SJP, easily my best game of the season. Newcastle could not stop my wingers, nor could they unlock my midfield, they were pathetic. Their goal was the only real chance they created in the match.

The fact that you used Nunelly to such great success must mean you can play pure wingers out wide, correct? I have two young wingers I really like (J.Leko & L.Bailey) but I'm not sure they're suited to this tactic, or if I should even try to train them to fit.

I used wingbacks on both sides and they were unplayable, Amavi on the left and Bree on the right had a goal and an assist each. 

 

[sims3]

What adjustments did u make I had an awesome preseason, good first game 2-0 as Blackburn v stoke but lost 3-2. Still awkward with the formation so putting it to one side until totally fluid. Not expecting miracles, with my side.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

37 minutes ago, Fred Zeppelin said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Thank you for this, it's beautiful football. 

Would you believe I tried this with Villa, with slight adjustments, and it worked perfectly right out of the box? Smashed Newcastle 5-1 at SJP, easily my best game of the season. Newcastle could not stop my wingers, nor could they unlock my midfield, they were pathetic. Their goal was the only real chance they created in the match.

The fact that you used Nunelly to such great success must mean you can play pure wingers out wide, correct? I have two young wingers I really like (J.Leko & L.Bailey) but I'm not sure they're suited to this tactic, or if I should even try to train them to fit.

I used wingbacks on both sides and they were unplayable, Amavi on the left and Bree on the right had a goal and an assist each. 

 

Great work, happy to hear it's working 

[Fred Zeppelin]

5 minutes ago, sims3 said:

What adjustments did u make I had an awesome preseason, good first game 2-0 as Blackburn v stoke but lost 3-2. Still awkward with the formation so putting it to one side until totally fluid. Not expecting miracles, with my side.

First half passing was very sloppy, nobody was above 80%, so I un-clicked Pass Into Space. Second half wasn't as fast and flowing, but possession was much more efficient. I scored 4 of the 5 in the 2nd half.

Other problem I had was the gap between CD and DLP. Holzhauser kept creeping up and leaving space. But Diop was magnificent with his anticipation, so Newcastle couldn't exploit it. A higher-quality team might take advantage.

 

[sims3]

Quick question: what kind of average shape should we be looking for without the ball. 

When I've reviewed the analysis the shape is less compact that it is WITH the ball. I'm guessing this is because of the press?

[sims3]

13 minutes ago, Fred Zeppelin said:

First half passing was very sloppy, nobody was above 80%, so I un-clicked Pass Into Space. Second half wasn't as fast and flowing, but possession was much more efficient. I scored 4 of the 5 in the 2nd half.

Other problem I had was the gap between CD and DLP. Holzhauser kept creeping up and leaving space. But Diop was magnificent with his anticipation, so Newcastle couldn't exploit it. A higher-quality team might take advantage.

 

Good stuff, fluid tactic? Prem is a different beast but determined to evolve my side to play this way.

[Fred Zeppelin]

48 minutes ago, sims3 said:

Good stuff, fluid tactic? Prem is a different beast but determined to evolve my side to play this way.

Very Fluid. I think it's crucial because it helped keep things compact. The midfield diamond moved as one, it was really fun to watch.

To answer your other question, I had almost the exact same average shape in both attack and defense. Not sure if that's good or bad, but Newcastle at least couldn't solve it. Eventually they just started trying to lob balls over the midfield and Diop had none of it, headed everything back at them.

[TacticNewb]

12 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Just amended your list with exactly what I use.

Most appreciated, you're a god among men. How your brain digests and translates is unbelievable

[sims3]

18 hours ago, Fred Zeppelin said:

Very Fluid. I think it's crucial because it helped keep things compact. The midfield diamond moved as one, it was really fun to watch.

To answer your other question, I had almost the exact same average shape in both attack and defense. Not sure if that's good or bad, but Newcastle at least couldn't solve it. Eventually they just started trying to lob balls over the midfield and Diop had none of it, headed everything back at them.

Excellent, need to Max out the tactical understanding then will give it a real go. Having some success with a 3-5-2 a present.

[Joey Numbaz]

OK, so I am finally back, trying this on FM17. I'm in mid-December of my Everton save, first season.

I was having trouble with it, even after changing the outside center backs to BPD. Still kept getting burned a couple of times a game. I realize my defenders aren't the fastest and I'll fix that once I get the winter transfer budget.

So I read the halfback complaint thread, that was talking about the CBs not spreading out wide enough. A lightbulb went off.

I decided to try a LIbero! I dropped the middle CB to a Libero. He steps up now. Way up. He's playing with and sometimes past the DLP-D when we have the ball. Sometimes they are right on top of each other though, which was a little bit of an issue.

So I dropped the DLP-D back to a HB. When we are attacking, he falls in way behind the Libero and makes for a nice 3-man back that spreads appropriately. As soon as we lose the ball, the Libero is back behind and the HB is up in front, it's crazy how fast they switch. Of course they were both exhausted by the end of the game too, but I guess that's the cost of doing business.

Later in the game, I tried moving the HB to a roaming playmaker at MC, and also as a Box-to-Box, because the roaming playmaker didn't drop back into defense well enough.

So my big question is what should I do with the middle midfielder if playing a BPD/Libero/BPD back three? The actual player will probably be James McCarthy, whose preferred moves are only plays short simple passes and dives into tackles. I could stick Gana there who only has shoots with power, but his marking and tackling aren't as good as McCarthy's, and I feel like defense is more important there than offense.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

12 hours ago, Joey Numbaz said:

OK, so I am finally back, trying this on FM17. I'm in mid-December of my Everton save, first season.

I was having trouble with it, even after changing the outside center backs to BPD. Still kept getting burned a couple of times a game. I realize my defenders aren't the fastest and I'll fix that once I get the winter transfer budget.

So I read the halfback complaint thread, that was talking about the CBs not spreading out wide enough. A lightbulb went off.

I decided to try a LIbero! I dropped the middle CB to a Libero. He steps up now. Way up. He's playing with and sometimes past the DLP-D when we have the ball. Sometimes they are right on top of each other though, which was a little bit of an issue.

So I dropped the DLP-D back to a HB. When we are attacking, he falls in way behind the Libero and makes for a nice 3-man back that spreads appropriately. As soon as we lose the ball, the Libero is back behind and the HB is up in front, it's crazy how fast they switch. Of course they were both exhausted by the end of the game too, but I guess that's the cost of doing business.

Later in the game, I tried moving the HB to a roaming playmaker at MC, and also as a Box-to-Box, because the roaming playmaker didn't drop back into defense well enough.

So my big question is what should I do with the middle midfielder if playing a BPD/Libero/BPD back three? The actual player will probably be James McCarthy, whose preferred moves are only plays short simple passes and dives into tackles. I could stick Gana there who only has shoots with power, but his marking and tackling aren't as good as McCarthy's, and I feel like defense is more important there than offense.

That's interesting. Imagine it's hard to pull off but a Libero and Half-back may be an interesting transition in building up an attack.

Can't quite picture what you've got left - sounds like your middle midfielder is the Half-back, no? Could you post a screenshot?

Edited March 16, 2017 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Joey Numbaz]

Yeah, the middle midfielder (of the 5 across the middle) was dropped back to half back. I'm wondering if that's the right way to approach it though.

It played great for 3 games against bad teams. Outshot Stoke 24-3 (0-0 score), Swansea 26-7 (2-1) (with them getting a few after I was down to 10 men late) and Middelsbrough 29-5 (4-2). Those were playing around with DM-HB and MC-DLPD across those games. So there were still some issues, with the defense as teams did break through occasionally - the shots they did get were decent ones.

But I also don't have great personnel on the back line yet. I'm playing a retrained and unconvincing (yellow) Mason Holgate as the Libero right now which is sub-optimal. Watford plays a weird 3CB-2WB-3CM-2Striker and they destroyed me it was 3-0 at half time. I switched the exploit the middle to exploit the flanks/work ball into box for the second half and won that half 2-1, but it was pretty scary. It seemed like they had 2 extra guys in the box every time and there were several times where they had a striker break free between my two CBs on a long ball while the Libero was attacking.

I had another idea - Maybe keep the three CDs, but drop the DLP-D all the way back to Libero-Attack?

The other thing I noticed is that we take a lot of long shots playing like this. I've tried work ball into box at times, but I'm not sure that's doing the trick either.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Joey Numbaz

[Joey Numbaz]

I'm actually thinking about going back to the beginning of the season, and making McCarthy the Libero. Or maybe Coleman. It's too much trying to train them mid-season, but going with one of them as the Libero might be the way to go, as I have too many wingers (Mirallas, Bolasie, Coleman, Lennon, Deulofeu, Baines) as it is for this anyway.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Joey Numbaz

[Joey Numbaz]

4 hours ago, Joey Numbaz said:

I'm actually thinking about going back to the beginning of the season, and making McCarthy the Libero. Or maybe Coleman. It's too much trying to train them mid-season, but going with one of them as the Libero might be the way to go, as I have too many wingers (Mirallas, Bolasie, Coleman, Lennon, Deulofeu, Baines) as it is for this anyway.

Yeah, that doesn't work. The Libero stands right on top of the middle CB while the goalie gets ready to distribute. And while the other team builds up they are also standing together. It would be nice if they'd split apart and widen into a back four with the libero deeper and off to one side with the middle CB off to the other side. Still trying to figure it out.

[angelossoul]

Hey ozil can you please tell me what are the main "priciples" for creating a very fluid, high possession(but not for the sake of possession), high pressing tactic? I have tried many thing but either I do not make any chances or I cannot hold possession etc

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 minutes ago, angelossoul said:

Hey ozil can you please tell me what are the main "priciples" for creating a very fluid, high possession(but not for the sake of possession), high pressing tactic? I have tried many thing but either I do not make any chances or I cannot hold possession etc

That's quite a broad question. That's basically the subject of the entire opening post and subsequent discussions and threads. What exactly are you looking for?

[Joey Numbaz]

20 hours ago, Joey Numbaz said:

Yeah, that doesn't work. The Libero stands right on top of the middle CB while the goalie gets ready to distribute. And while the other team builds up they are also standing together. It would be nice if they'd split apart and widen into a back four with the libero deeper and off to one side with the middle CB off to the other side. Still trying to figure it out.

I need to see it in action a little more ... but one thing that seems promising is taking one of the CBs out wide, with a Wing Back duty, from the DR (or DL) position.

With that setup, they do seem to play as a back four on defense. I tied the first half against West Brom (19th place but with a 4 man front, AML, AMC, AMR, ST) 1-1 with the Libero and 3 CBs, swung the DCR out to DR and won the second half 3-0. I'll keep going with this and see what happens. It also fits my team a little better, because I can get Coleman and Mirallas in the lineup together.

EDIT: I'd add that it might make sense since this isn't a balanced formation, to make the ML someone who is very good defensively since he's got huge responsibility now. The MR, since there's now a DR can be a lot more offensive. But that's just theory, not sure yet. I play Arsenal next with just one day off so we'll see how it goes ...

Edited March 17, 2017 by Joey Numbaz

[Joey Numbaz]

Also to be clear, I guess the main modifications I made are:

1) Take the middle CB and make him a Libero.

2) Take the MC-DLPD and make him a DR-WBS (or defend).

It is fun to play around with this stuff. The new "RADAR" view, which you can overlay on the game screen (having a 27" monitor helps here) really allows you to see how the players are positioned while still watching the game in Director mode.

[Joey Numbaz]

1 minute ago, Joey Numbaz said:

Also to be clear, I guess the main modifications I made are:

1) Take the middle CB and make him a Libero.

2) Take the MC-DLPD and make him a DR-WBS (or defend).

It is fun to play around with this stuff. The new "RADAR" view, which you can overlay on the game screen (having a 27" monitor helps here) really allows you to see how the players are positioned while still watching the game in Director mode.

I'm going stream of consciousness here a little, sorry for the multiple posts ... but the main thing here is that the Libero can step up into the offensive role the DLPD has, while being more help on defense. This allows you to move the DLPD out to the DR or DL, which helps defense a lot against a 3 or 4 man attack. You have to move him out or the middle CB and the Libero just stand on top of each other too much.

[Craigus89]

41 minutes ago, angelossoul said:

First of all thanks for the quick answer! I have read your other post about very fluid 4-4-2 and I got inspired and tried to make a tactic my own but it failed.  I tried 4-4-2 with high d line much more pressing play out of defence  andpass into space. The result was many through balls between my two cbs and nearly none chance only from corners. In addition I managed to get an average 48% possession. What do I do wrong? Also in a 4-4-2 where are the goals supposed to come from? Because I dont really like the style of  "many crosses and maybe someone will be made into goal". 

It's impossible to help unless we know what your entire set up is. You may want to start a new thread rather than fill this one, and look at the sticky at the top of this forum that tells you what information to post.

[Joey Numbaz]

Did some more playing around ... I think for now, at least against teams with strong attacks, I am leaning towards making my Sweeper just sweeper defend, not a Libero. And setting the two ball playing defenders to close down less. This seemed to work pretty well so far. Once I have some better CB's a Libero might make more sense. I put everyone else back so it's a 1SW-2-5-1-1. I'm also going with the latest tweaks Ozil's mentions as far as the MC-S having get forward, etc.; control mentality. Against teams who play strong through the middle I'm turning off play through center and using work ball into box. We'll see how it goes. The early returns seem good.

[BMNJohn]

On 09/03/2017 at 10:30, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Just amended your list with exactly what I use.

I've noticed that in FM17 at least, the Half-Back role training shares most of its attributes with DLP(D), with the added benefit of it also focusing on defensive attributes unlike DLP training. However it also means that the player won't work on becoming a better CM if he's not familiar with that strata, but I find it to be a very minor issue personally.

[ceefax the cat]

I've arrived at pretty much this exact shape (albeit 3-1-5--1 or 1-2-1-5--1 instead of using an AMC) from a quite different direction. I'm playing in Colombia and find that every side I come up against plays 4-3-1-2. I'm a weak side so I need to be quite defensive much of the time, and the only real strengths my team has are good marking attributes in midfield and an aerially dominant target man. What do you get if you man mark the whole midfield and attack in a 4-3-1-2, have wide midfielders track the fullbacks and then add a spare man at the back...? 

My team play defensively even if they do sometimes push up and man mark in the opposing half. Buildup consists of long balls to the target man and long passes out to the wings from the SW or central BPD. There are two variations - one with the wingers bombing forward, one with the three MC's overloading the centre and getting near the target man. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

@ceefax the cat I should imagine this shape absolutely kills it in a league dominated by 4-3-1-2. Love using it against that system. The lack of attacking threat on the flanks mitigates the major weakness of this shape.

[pedromanuelpinto]

Hi,

The tactic is amazing, in a control/attack approach. 

But I'm having troubles in some defensive aspects. Almost all the goals that my team suffers is with a winger/attacker going to the line, enter in the penalty box and makes a pass to the 2^nd post (and goal).

I’m with Leeds in the 1^st season in the Premiership, so I’m playing a control football against stronger teams, but I want to play this way.

Any suggestion to change the tactic?

[enders357]

On 4/17/2017 at 16:26, pedromanuelpinto said:

Hi,

The tactic is amazing, in a control/attack approach. 

But I'm having troubles in some defensive aspects. Almost all the goals that my team suffers is with a winger/attacker going to the line, enter in the penalty box and makes a pass to the 2^nd post (and goal).

I’m with Leeds in the 1^st season in the Premiership, so I’m playing a control football against stronger teams, but I want to play this way.

Any suggestion to change the tactic?

I'm having the same problem. So many goals come from pull backs and crosses in FM16 and FM17. Argh.

[mibsweden]

4 hours ago, enders357 said:

I'm having the same problem. So many goals come from pull backs and crosses in FM16 and FM17. Argh.

I made the wide players Wing Backs on support in the Wing Back position. That worked for me.

[pedromanuelpinto]

And worked in the attack mode? Put them as WB in Support you only have Support and Defence in the middlefield

[CybrSlydr]

On 3/9/2017 at 10:50, Fred Zeppelin said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Thank you for this, it's beautiful football. 

Would you believe I tried this with Villa, with slight adjustments, and it worked perfectly right out of the box? Smashed Newcastle 5-1 at SJP, easily my best game of the season. Newcastle could not stop my wingers, nor could they unlock my midfield, they were pathetic. Their goal was the only real chance they created in the match.

The fact that you used Nunelly to such great success must mean you can play pure wingers out wide, correct? I have two young wingers I really like (J.Leko & L.Bailey) but I'm not sure they're suited to this tactic, or if I should even try to train them to fit.

I used wingbacks on both sides and they were unplayable, Amavi on the left and Bree on the right had a goal and an assist each. 

 

Am I reading this correctly?  Instead of 3 CD, you have a Right and Left Defender and a single Center Back?

[makul]

On 17/4/2017 at 12:26, pedromanuelpinto said:

Hi,

The tactic is amazing, in a control/attack approach. 

But I'm having troubles in some defensive aspects. Almost all the goals that my team suffers is with a winger/attacker going to the line, enter in the penalty box and makes a pass to the 2^nd post (and goal).

I’m with Leeds in the 1^st season in the Premiership, so I’m playing a control football against stronger teams, but I want to play this way.

Any suggestion to change the tactic?

Put two CD as stopper, one as cover and MC in DM position. This work for me.

[enders357]

I've been well and truly found out using this (with minor tweaks to suit my squad).

I'm playing with Atletico and in my first season did reasonably well apeing Simone's tactics but I wanted us to become more than just a counter attacking team in my second season, in an effort to really challenge Barca and Real. I switched to this formation and in the first 10 Liga games, I scored 21 and conceded just 6. In the following 10 matches, beginning with a 4-2 battering at the hands of Real, I have managed a slightly less impressive 16 goals for but have conceded  a whopping 26!

I'm not sure what to do about it really. I'm so vulnerable down the flanks, and teams are bypassing my press with ease. I'm considering dropping the Wingers to the WB positions, but I've actually made a few moves in the transfer market to get some good wingers in (Arsenal and Chelsea started a bidding war for Carrasco, so I invested what I got and bought Mbappe and Coman, and Gaitan is (was) already playing exceptionally well on the left wing). I'm reluctant to switch to WBs and have no room for those players, especially when my WBs are the now pretty aged Filipe Luis and Juanfran. 

Anyone else find similar issues once you'd got past the honeymoon period? Got any tips? The AI on this game is so frsutrating - one of the main reasons I switched from my 4-4-2 was the fact that it appeared to have been found out towards the end of the first season. Perhaps it's impossible to maintain a high level of performance without switching tactics every half a season? That's not ideal for squad building. ARGH.

[mbabbs]

I took inspiration from this thread and Cruyffs videos and created my own 3-5-2 for my Villa save. Its lovely and is a joy to watch so many thanks.

My only differences to the tactics displayed on page 1 are -

1: Be more disciplined - I wanted the team to keep its shape and rely on teamwork. I use PI's for a couple of players to use more risky passes.

2: Offside trap - In one of Cruyffs videos about Barcelona he mentions that they sometimes relied on the offside trap.

3: BPDs - My entire back line are ball playing defenders who close down less as I want them to keep their shape with the DLP, but I may revise that. Its an experiment so far.

4: Attacking midfielder is in support rather than attack - Also I have a player with 'Plays with back to goal' trait.

5: Complete Forward is in attack rather than support

6: Closing Down Less - I know the point is to high press, but I want my defensive line to keep its shape and I felt setting this higher would be too aggressive. Instead I have PI's for the attacking and support players to close down much more

Overall its a pleasure to watch. I occasionally get caught at the back, but offside and pacey defenders help. When I do get caught its usually because of a mistake in midfield that allows the opposition a moment to counter. Otherwise it tends to dominate matches.

 

Thanks for the thread!

Edited April 25, 2017 by mbabbs

[pedromanuelpinto]

On 2017-4-25 at 09:46, mbabbs said:

I took inspiration from this thread and Cruyffs videos and created my own 3-5-2 for my Villa save. Its lovely and is a joy to watch so many thanks.

My only differences to the tactics displayed on page 1 are -

1: Be more disciplined - I wanted the team to keep its shape and rely on teamwork. I use PI's for a couple of players to use more risky passes.

2: Offside trap - In one of Cruyffs videos about Barcelona he mentions that they sometimes relied on the offside trap.

3: BPDs - My entire back line are ball playing defenders who close down less as I want them to keep their shape with the DLP, but I may revise that. Its an experiment so far.

4: Attacking midfielder is in support rather than attack - Also I have a player with 'Plays with back to goal' trait.

5: Complete Forward is in attack rather than support

6: Closing Down Less - I know the point is to high press, but I want my defensive line to keep its shape and I felt setting this higher would be too aggressive. Instead I have PI's for the attacking and support players to close down much more

Overall its a pleasure to watch. I occasionally get caught at the back, but offside and pacey defenders help. When I do get caught its usually because of a mistake in midfield that allows the opposition a moment to counter. Otherwise it tends to dominate matches.

 

Thanks for the thread!

Are you coinciding goals in the 2nd post?

How is working the offside trap?

[mbabbs]

At the moment it seems to be working. I do concede the occasional goal where one of my defenders goes walkabout (have now set them all to close down much less) or the opposition break the offside. One thing I have noticed is that if I set the tactic to attacking then it leaves you extremely vulnerable to a counter attack. I think its essential that the back 3 and the DLP keep their shape and they lose it when you go more attack minded.

On the whole though its looking a very solid tactic. I do lose occasionally, but its usually because I have failed to take my chances. I do think it relies on you having very good players (high pace, work rate, concentration, determination) in defence and DLP. I think any weak players in those positions will leave you exposed.

The crowning glory so far was an 8-1 thumping of a 4th placed Chelsea away from home with a good, but not amazing Villa team.

 

[BadAss88]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Sorry if it's already been asked but what PPM's do you recommend for each position?

[DannyVer]

Very nice thread!!! Love the tactic and the way of playing.  I would love to see a thread of you were you begin a new season and build the team around the tactic.

Lets say Spurs, leverkusen or hoffenheim. For a newbie like me that would be very helpfull!! Altought i know its a lot of work to do but are you planning on doing that?

[Catley94]

Just started an Ajax save after reading this and loving it so far. Won League and Europa League first season and got some great regens in first youth intake. With you set up of 22 men in first team etc, how many years do you expect the new batch to stay in the U19's? Only one?

[martywigham]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Having read through all of your other threads and seen how you have 'evolved' and made slight changes to how you create your preferred style, albeit whilst recreating different real life tactics, is there anything you would change to this one if you were to make it now? 

[pedromanuelpinto]

On 2017-5-2 at 10:15, mbabbs said:

At the moment it seems to be working. I do concede the occasional goal where one of my defenders goes walkabout (have now set them all to close down much less) or the opposition break the offside. One thing I have noticed is that if I set the tactic to attacking then it leaves you extremely vulnerable to a counter attack. I think its essential that the back 3 and the DLP keep their shape and they lose it when you go more attack minded.

On the whole though its looking a very solid tactic. I do lose occasionally, but its usually because I have failed to take my chances. I do think it relies on you having very good players (high pace, work rate, concentration, determination) in defence and DLP. I think any weak players in those positions will leave you exposed.

The crowning glory so far was an 8-1 thumping of a 4th placed Chelsea away from home with a good, but not amazing Villa team.

 

Hi,

Can you share the TI? What are the players that you put risky passes?

I have made some changes, for example change the Wingers to Defensive Wingers, but in the end, I want them to become Wing Backs (in the WB position) in support or attack. I have ativated the Stuck in and tight marking; this helped to win more tackles.

However, I liked your idea about; reduce the closing down, so the players don’t move from the original position.

Also use offside trap and it works very well.

 

 

Regards,

[mbabbs]

23 hours ago, pedromanuelpinto said:

Can you share the TI? What are the players that you put risky passes?

I'm at work so I can't upload anything, but I'll try to remember.

Normal Tempo, Low Crosses, Play out of Defence, Close Down Less, Offside Trap, Be more disciplined, Narrow width (I used to play wide, but am experimenting), Work Ball into area, Mixed Passing, Standard

 

For me the back 3 + DPL are all about keeping position so yes I close down a lot less as a TI to aid that. The back 3 need to be fast and have good work rate, concentration and heading\jumping. They also need to be not aggressive so that they will maintain position.

The offside trap seems to be effective unless they have a good, fast forward in which case I switch it off.

I play 'Be more disciplined' as a TI, but my DLP and CM(s) have PI's for risky passes. Those players need good passing and vision. The two CM(S) I have a Get Further Forward PI, Move into channels and Long Shots.

 

I have stuck with Wingers and I find Very Fluid + Close Down Much More PI and Tight Marking is good enough for them to track back, but I have wingers with high work rate, determination and teamwork and I suspect that helps.

Edited May 23, 2017 by mbabbs

[Gareh]

Huge fan of your work pal, keep it up. I've been waiting for years for someone to recreate Man Utd's 99 treble winning season. I've tried time after time but constantly fail. Have you ever considered giving it a go?

[A_BVB_D]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

I am a very, VERY huge fan of the tactic and, to be honest, your overlay of the different tactics and, with great work and dedication, finally managed to outclass Bayern 3-0 at home (that cut some of the anguish after a 1-0 defeat to Augsburg, for the fans). 

BUT, the problem I'm facing at the moment is the fact that while facing 4-4-2, I have absolutely no chance of winning (will post screenshots with results and statistics when I get home). In the meantime, did you ever have this problem? I'm thinking maybe something is happening on my side, though Leverkusen have Martial and some other players now that make some sort of difference.

[BadAss88]

I have trouble with my DLP(d) not getting a consistent good average rating..sometimes he isn't the playmaker of the team I want him to be..

I like the defensive solitude that he brings but I want him more dominant on the ball, giving more passes and being more on the ball, now it's more my 2 CM(s) that do that work..

Any suggestions to achieve this?