Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)

[Anaconda Vice]

24 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Bit of a curveball - sorry to disappoint! 

I would not say a disappointment. Rather a pleasing alternative. 

[alinp]

5 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Spot on. Can't see if you've already done it but the Player Instruction, "Get Forward More" works wonders getting your central midfielders to attack through the centre and you've got reasonable cover from the DM and conservative fullbacks.

Good luck with that and I'll be interested to hear how you go. The second version is not at all far from my interpretation of Klopp's current Liverpool side and you'll probably find yourself using that the most as you'll come up against so many 4-2-3-1s.

P.s. what are you doing without Milner at fullback?? 

Yes, both CM's have GFF & the CF(S) has MiC.

I do wonder whether 8 TI's is a bit many though?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, alinp said:

Yes, both CM's have GFF & the CF(S) has MiC.

I do wonder whether 8 TI's is a bit many though?

It is a lot but you'll always have a lot playing a high block and pressing as you need to set the line, marking, closing down and pressing the keeper. Take them out and see what happens. Some may be redundant.

[alinp]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

It is a lot but you'll always have a lot playing a high block and pressing as you need to set the line, marking, closing down and pressing the keeper. Take them out and see what happens. Some may be redundant.

Could possibly do some of that with positional OI's?

[Hoptoad]

2 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

It is a lot but you'll always have a lot playing a high block and pressing as you need to set the line, marking, closing down and pressing the keeper. Take them out and see what happens. Some may be redundant.

Out of curiousity, did you remove a TI with your 4-1-4-1 formation in comparison to the 3-5-1-1? Since in your opening posts you use 8 TIs and if you add "exploit the middle" it would make 9 instead of the 8 you are talking about.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

14 hours ago, Hoptoad said:

Out of curiousity, did you remove a TI with your 4-1-4-1 formation in comparison to the 3-5-1-1? Since in your opening posts you use 8 TIs and if you add "exploit the middle" it would make 9 instead of the 8 you are talking about.

I actually removed pass into space as it wasn't necessary - the players were naturally making through balls anyway.

[Hoptoad]

Thanks for the response. It helps me to understand making tactics a bit better. I am currently playing with something similar. One difference is that both my CMs are on a CM(a) duty. But if I am correct, there should be no difference between a CM(s) with the GFF instruction and a CM(a) right? Or am I missing something?

[hinch83]

I've applied your original tactic reasonably successfully so far in FM17 as Man United. I find my DLP (Pogba) plays more level in the midfield three though so the diamond is more of a triangle. I expect this is more to do with him being inclined to go forward instinctively.

Reading your story though has certainly given me an insight into how tactics on the game work though and I feel I can move forward on the game from here, so thank you for sharing your tactic.

Edited November 12, 2016 by hinch83

[Tyler42]

I used your tactic for a mid-tier team in Iceland that had a very small squad, having to depend on youth players to fill in for injured first-team players. 
And I won the league! I do minor adjustments according to each match, but the passing play, build up and fluid play is beautiful. My old tactic was my attempt to replica the Icelandic counter-attack style, with average success. But this one turned it around. My problem is leaky defense, but the fact I have only 1 Part-Time defender and the other two on a Non-Contract, I think it kind of shows how bad my resources were. And I had a GK that was injured almost half the season and having a 16yr fill in.

[Contexx]

Really interesting thread.  I've been playing around with 3 cb tactics recently, and managed to make a pretty effective 3142, although it was vulnerable to 433, and I was left with constant headaches regarding what to do with my wide players.  I couldn't exactly trust them as "wingers", and defensive wingers just seemed to leave us too vulnerable when missing tackles, and didn't offer enough in attack for my liking.  Having accepted a job with Hoffenheim in the Bundesliga, I found they had been playing 352 with wingbacks, which had left them in the relegation zone, short on attacking wingers, and in a mess.  What they did have was good, quick strikers.

So wingbacks it had to be then!  Playing on structured, it seemed to really take care of attacking wingers.  The problem was it would turn too much into a 532, leaving too many gaps.  What would inevitably happen is a speedy Konan-esque winger could simply strart running with the ball from deep, and by the time he was closed down, he will have already made it into a dangerous position.  Without wishing to hijack the thread, the answer was to turn my team "very fluid".  It ensured more movement between lines, especially in defense.  Players would "help out" on defense more.  More importantly, when one wingback would step up to deal with danger, the other would drop into the defensive line (of sorts) in order to maintain a sort of "back four".  The beautiful thing with using so many generic roles and a very fluid shape is that every member of the team is involved.  Early days yet, but what I'm noticing is the defense being less "solid" in the traditional sense, but much more active, especially when pressing.  I'm seeing more interceptions leading to counters, rather than tackles which would lead to clearances.  Also,  because players are less restricted by position, they're more available to receive incisive passing.  What it reminds me of is Croatia around Euro 2008, under Bilic, where the compactness of the team would force the opposition into mistakes, without having to fully press so much, and they could play their way out of trouble via shorter passes. 

Anyway, I don't mean to hijack the thread, just to offer some observations on the advantages of very fluid shape

 

 

 

[riccardo6630]

On 5/5/2016 at 20:23, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

DOPO la triste scomparsa di Ajax e Barcellona leggenda Johan Cruyff sono sicuro Che Io non sono il solista a godere di un Ajax Cruyff ISPIRAZIONE Salvare.

Mi piace sempre un Salvataggio con l'Ajax. Sviluppare i Giovani del Club e La Creazione Di Una Squadra formidabile di talento in casa. ALL'INIZIO of this Gioco, in Realta intenzione ho di Muoversi verso La classica Olandese 4-3-3 - che ho effettivamente Giocare per breve tempo - tuttavia la mancanza di avanti dentro e Abbondanza di MERAVIGLIOSI centrocampisti Centrali, Giocare a palla i Difensori e Ali significava un Johan leggendario diamante 3-4-3 epoca di Cruyff in Realta una scelta Migliore. DOPO MOLTI Esperimenti Ho Trovato un Sistema Che sono felice con e ha Portato Grande Successo, forse ALCUNI possono Essere Interessati e potrebbe richiedere Qualche Discussione interessante.

Vita Reale * Risorse sul 3-4-3

* Non Che FM non è la vita reale ..

• Spielverlagerung - Analisi Retro: 1992 Finale di Coppa dei Campioni - Barcellona 1: 0 Sampdoria
• Spielverlagerung - Analisi Retro: 1995 Finale di Champions League - Ajax 1: 0 AC Milan
• Spielverlagerung - Analisi della partita: Barcellona 5: 0 Villarreal
• Tattiche Cruyff 3-4-3: YouTube
• YouTube: Cruyff Spiega il Suo diamante

Teoria

Secondo l'eccellente Analisi di Spielverlagerung, this E La forma Che STIAMO Cercando di Creare.

 

Bello, non e vero?

Venite parte della leggendaria Squadra Olanda 'calcio totale' del 1970 l'Approccio tattico di Johan Cruyff Segue Gli Stessi Concetti:

• Positivo, propositivo, Calcio
• Calciatori Completi con forte Capacità tecnica, l'intelligenza e fitness
• Attacco e difesa Come una Squadra
• Intelligence & creatività
• Fluidità e movimento
• Possesso

Formazione, Forma & Mentalità

Formazione, la forma e la mentalità Vanno mano nella mano venire la spina dorsale della Vostra TATTICA. Non credo ci SIA Molto senso Parlare di Uno senza Gli Altri In modo Che Tutti si parlera in una volta.

Venite probabilmente Siete un Conoscenza, Ormai, in Football Manager Vostra Formazione si riferisce alla forma di Difesa. Così, DOPO UN MOLTI Esperimenti, ho optato per Una forma 3-5-1-1.

 

Molto fluido: Per me, la descrizione following descriva Parola per Parola esattamente Cio che STIAMO Cercando qui. Calciatori Completi, attaccare e difendere Come una Squadra in Una forma fluida una Giocare un calcio a flusso libero con Elevata libertà creativa. Perfetto.

 

Standard: . L'equilibrio e La Parola chiave qui . La tentazione sarebbe di Seleziona una Il Controllo, o attaccare Il Motivo Sono andato secondo la norma E che la Riproduzione Di Una forma Molto fluido significa Che la mia Squadra Sarà attaccare e difendere venire un'unità . Cio significa Che La Selezione di Una mentalità Più aggressiva avrebbe Tutta la mia Squadra Più aggressiva. in Altre forme, vieni rigida o bilanciata, Questo e bilanciato riducendo mentalità Difensori ma non in forme Molto fluido. nella mia Esperienza, la forma Molto fluido non si mescola bene con attacco mentalità. Sono sicuro Che potrebbe funzionare, ma Nella mia Esperienza non ê Semplicemente EQUILIBRATA.

Istruzioni squadra

 

Nota sul Passaggio

Si noterà Che, nonostante volesse Giocare Un gioco a base di Possesso, non alterare il mio Opzioni di passaggio. Ci Sono dovuto Ragioni per this:

1. La mia Squadra E COMPOSTA da Intelligenti, giocatori Tecnicamente di talento e le mie Istruzioni osare Loro Un buon movimento, le Opzioni di passaggio e libertà creativa. Voglio permettere un QUESTI Giocatori di SCEGLIERE L'Opzione Migliore, Piuttosto Che Quello Più Vicino A Loro. Gran parte del tempo l'Opzione Migliore Sarà un passaggio corto, ma di tanto in tanto si potrebbe strappare aperta una Difesa Dalla DISTANZA, se e su. non credo Cruyff avrebbe Detto 'no' una this!
2. VUOI EVITARE di Possesso Per il Bene Possesso. VOGLIAMO Dominare il Possesso, ma tariffa also in modo Che STIAMO Creando Occasioni e Andare Avanti.

Ruoli dei giocatori e Istruzioni

Venite per di wwfan influente guida 12 a Passo do Come Giocare Football Manager , al bene di svolgere con Successo Una forma Molto fluido Ho bisogno di limitare la mia Squadra per 0-1 Ruoli specialistici cioè registi, palla vincitori o Qualsiasi cosa con un nome di fantasia.

Sweeper Keeper (Supporto): Distribuire la palla un playmaker, distribuire Rapidamente

Il difensore centrale (Difendi): N / A

Centrale Defender (COPERTURA): N / A

Il difensore centrale (Difendi): N / A

Ala Destra (Attacco): N / A

Centrocampista centrale (Supporto): SPECIFICHE Player *

Profonda Che giace Playmaker (Difendi): CHIUDERE giù Molto Meno

Il difensore centrale (Difendi): SPECIFICHE Player

Ala Sinistra (Attacco): N / A

Trequartista (Attacco): Hold up a sfera

Completa Forward (Supporto): Spostare a Canali

* Da 'giocatore SPECIFICO' voglio dire Che ho alterare le Istruzioni Sulla base di dei Punti di forza o di debolezza di un Particolare giocatore. Utilizzando l'XI di Partenza di cui sopra vengono Esempio delle Nazioni Unite, Klaassen E un grande centrocampista centrale, aggressivo quindi devo lui Get Avanti, CHIUDERE giù Più, dribblare sempre Il Gioco passa Più Dirette , MENTRE Van de Beek una Sinistra e Piu di un passante del Paziente, Così ho lo colloca, Passano passaggi rischiosi Più brevi e Meno . Cerco di bilanciare Le Due Cose Così Uno Più aggressivo e L'Altro Siede AIUTA riciclare Possesso.

Analisi della Forma

La Schermata qui sotto VIENE Dalla Casa tappa del Nostro 2020 Champions League Quarto pareggio finale con un lato di invecchiamento Barcellona.

 

L'Ajax E in Possesso di palla a centrocampo con Bazoer la Riproduzione di un passaggio corto verso Klaassen. Qui, Si Può Chiaramente VEDERE UN Ampio Schienale 3 con un diamante centrocampo Davanti a Loro e di un centro in avanti, affiancato da causa ali.

E Anche possibile VEDERE I Problemi this forma sta causando un profondo 4-2DM-3-1. Guardate Lo Spazio I nostri I nostri centrocampisti Hanno. ABBIAMO Vinto this Gioco 4-1 e raggiunto quasi il 60% il Possesso.

 

Se Mappe di Calore Sono Più la Vostra passione, ecco il Nostro Posizione dei media con la palla .

Analisi della partita

AJAX vs PSG

2020 Finale di Champions League

ABBIAMO affrontato Contro lato PSG di Laurent Blanc. E 'Stata la collisione di causa Differenti filosofie calcistiche. Il PSG ha spendere Piu di £ 560m dal Momento Che Il Gioco ha cominciato, MENTRE 7 del Ajax un Partire 11 provengono dall'Accademia Toekomst. PSG allineati in Una formidabile Cercando 4-3-3 e ho giocato il Sistema esattamente venire descritto sopra, non ritocchi speciali.

Analisi senza palla

La ragione principale per La Scelta di Giocare un Sistema 3-6-1 E La SUA forza fuori la palla. I NUMERI un centrocampo significa Che Si Può PREMERE in modo aggressivo, senza preoccuparsi di lasciare Spazi vuoti.

Mi piacerebbe Fortemente raccomando di leggere il following articolo per ULTERIORI Comprensione dei Punti di forza della forma - 3-6-1: un passo logico , dal Spielverlagerung (non lavoro per Loro, onestamente )

Istruzioni Fondamentali:

• Molto Fluido - Difendere venire Unità, La Struttura compatta mentalità
• CHIUDERE Ancora Molto ALTRO
• marcatura stretta
• Prevenire GK Distribuzione

L'Alto Press

 

Qui sotto potete VEDERE Il PSG in Possesso sul retro e Si Può immediatamente VEDERE quanti Pressione Sono sotto. Mbemba Stretto E riuscito a ottenere la palla al Suo terzino prima Che il mio centravanti si avventa su di lui. Ora GUARDARE le Opzioni aperte per il terzino . Nada. La mia ala Sinistra e Alto e su di lui prima di Che la palla atterra Ai Piedi Suoi.

Premendo E Molto semplice.

• Hai bisogno di Una Formazione in cui il giocatore Sarà Vicino Al giocatore avversario con la palla, cioè senza lacune Nella Formazione, per Esempio E difficile da PREMERE terzini di Opposizione con un diamante 4-4-2 venire larghezza non Avete.
• Hai bisogno di giocatori Che ci ottenere Rapidamente CHIUDERE Molto altro TI / PI, alto ritmo di Lavoro, Pace e Resistenza
• E Necessario sostenere Quel giocatore coprendo il divario se ne va, e tagliando le Opzioni di passaggio, Vale a dire 5 centrocampo Offre grande COPERTURA (vedi articolo sopra), e stretto la marcatura.

Vincente la palla istantaneamente con Una pressa ad alta E grande, ma difficile. Il vero Obiettivo della Elevata Stampa E Quello di costringere l'Opposizione a Passaggio delle Nazioni Unite, QUANDO ABBIAMO 3 Difensori mobili e un centrocampista azienda.

The Deep Press

 

Ora e possibile Vedere la Nostra Struttura difensiva QUANDO PSG Avere il Possesso in Una Posizione minacciosa nel terzo attacco.

In Assenza di terzini, i giocatori nel calo Strati MR / ML Profonda e difendere terzini sono un po 'Esperti Che creano Uno Schienale 5-3-2 forma Molto solido. Bazoer scenderà in difesa sé Qualcuno E Fuori Posizione per uccidere EVENTUALI lacune. This E La premessa della mia Strutture difensiva.

Una delle cose Che mi piace di Ruoli generalista vs specialista E Il Loro Tasso di lavoro difensivo. Guarda # 10 - Che E Odegaard, il mio centrocampista offensivo Ancora ottenere stretto su Daley Blind, tagliando Qualsiasi Opzione di Switch to Li.

Analisi con la palla

Adesso per la parte divertente ..

Costruire da Difesa

Come ci si Aspetta Da Una Squadra di Calcio totale di ISPIRAZIONE Che attaccare e difendere venire Unità Una, I nostri Difensori e il portiere in Effetti Sono la prima tappa del Nostro Costruzione Gioco.

Istruzioni chiave

• Molto Fluido - Più movimento, libertà creativa e Difensori incoraggiati un Mettersi in gioco con Il Gioco.
• Maggiore libertà creativa
• Mentalità di serie - i giocatori SCEGLIERE La migliore Opzione di passaggio, Imparziale sul Fatto Che Si Tratta Di Una Opzione di breve o di diretta.
• Ruoli generalisti - con L'eccezione del DLP, i giocatori non Saranno influenzati verso la ricerca di un 'fantasista', Ancora Una Volta E SUFFICIENTE SCEGLIERE L'Opzione Migliore.

 

This immagine mostra Che la Nostra Formazione e essenzialmente dovuto Diamanti, con un fronte di 3 Davanti a Loro. Tutte Quasi le formazioni dell'opposizione avranno Difficoltà / impossibilita di tariffa Pressione su OGNI punto in ENTRAMBI I Diamanti, Così Sarà quasi sempre un 'giocatore libero 'Nella fase di Accumulo.

Questo e un Esempio semplice, vieni PSG non premono affatto.

Ci Sono dovuto Punti chiave per il diamante:

1. Playmaker situata in profondita
2. attaccante centrocampista

Se vi siete Persi il collegamento qui sopra, Cryuff Spiega lui Stesso, qui:

The Deep-Lying Playmaker - Bazoer

Si Può Notare Che ho Bazoer evidenziato in MOLTI dei Punti salienti. La ragion di This E che il mio Punto di Riferimento. Bazoer E Il perno Tra I Due diamanti e sempre DEVE Essere Disponibile per un passaggio. La ragione per averlo Messo in evidenza E Quello di VEDERE SE VIENE immediatamente segnato Fuori dal Gioco.

Bazoer Sarà regolarmente Cadere Nella parte posteriore da 3 collect la palla e distribuire in avanti Ai miei centrocampisti, ali o Attaccanti.

Istruzioni chiave

• Playmaker - solo playmaker della Squadra, Così attira la Palla Più e ha il maggior numero di Opzioni di passaggio.
• Molto Fluido -. TROVA compagni di sé Stesso di spazio e di gruppo offrono un buon movimento InOLTRE, Una maggiore libertà creativa.

Il trequartista - Odegaard

Miglior giocatore della Squadra. Odegaard E un perno di attacco. Odegaard ha dovuto Responsabilità:

• QUANDO la Palla E Alle Sue Spalle, ha Spalle alla porta, trovando lo spazio per un semplice passaggio e poi Giocare un altro semplice passaggio ad un centrocampista accorrente.
• QUANDO la Palla E Davanti a lui, Facendo avanti Corre E che agisce Come un trequartista o attaccante secondario.

Istruzioni chiave

• Hold up palla.
• Get Forward (automatico).
• NON il roaming da Posizione - nessuno del mio rombo vagare Dalla posizione, venire se vagano troppo poi perdo il mio diamante.
• A VOLTE Scambia Posizione con ST, se la ST E un trequartista.

QUESTI Centrocampista

Qui, Si Può venire VEDERE siamo in fila venire Bazoer Entra nella Metà campo avversaria, e svolge un passaggio corto di Klaassen. This illustra:

• Posizionamento di Bazoer nel cerchio centrale - voglio Che soggiornano in / da QUESTE parti venire Opzione di passaggio e fogli per i contatori di Opposizione.
• Odegaard ha Spalle alla porta, aperta a Giocare un passaggio Che collega un un on-Correre centrocampista prima di effettuare un attacco eseguito se Stesso. <- Segniamo un sacco di gol di this.
• Indietro 3 spalancate in Possesso della Palla, il tutto in un sacco di spazio.
• Rombo in Una Posizione Avanzata, pronto per la Transizione all'attacco.
• Wingers Sono Ampie, Che si estende Difesa.
• Completa di Andata e in calo Più profondo, l'aggiunta di un'opzione in Più che passa e La Creazione di Uno spazio.

Entrando nel terzo attacco

. Qui, Riedewald TROVA Nunnely in Una Posizione d'attacco Vieni si entra il terzo attaccante, E VEDERE possibile:

• La nostra forma diventa un 3-3-4.
• Odegaard E ora di fronte Obiettivo, Facendo Una corsa attaccando e Creando un 2v1 sul centro Opposizione indietro.
• Il Nostro indietro 3 e centrocampo a 3 rimangono ragionevolmente in-tatto, in qualita di Copertura per contrastare Gli Attacchi e le Opzioni di passaggio.
• A volte, Klaassen FARA Una corsa in Seguito Nella Casella.
• Wingers Fanno attaccando Corre Nella scatola.

Mi piace molto Il Gioco posizionale da MR / ML Wingers in un Sistema Molto fluido. Esse ci permettono di passaggio dal 5-3-2 senza la Palla Nella Nostra Meta, al 3-3-4 con la palla in attacco.

Il RISULTATO

ABBIAMO Vinto la partita in modo confortevole e this has been forse la partita di Definizione of this Squadra Ajax. ABBIAMO Distrutto PSG 5-0, registrando il 58% il Possesso e Prevenire Un solo tiro in porta, MENTRE UN Giovane da L'Accademia E Stata Man of the match e ha segnato un calcio di bicicletta.

This lato ha Vinto Anche il Eredivise, imbattuto e segnando un record di numero di gol. Odegaard, Nunnely, van Leeuwen e Patrascu Tutti gestiti> 20 gol in Tutte le Competizioni. Nouri, Ayew e Klaassen Tutti raggiunti conteggi gol in doppia cifra.

PKM Scarica

• 2020 Finale di Champions League: Ajax 5: 0 PSG
• 2019 Finale di Champions League: Ajax 2: 1 Juventus

Se Siete Interessati in background e lo Sviluppo of this Squadra, Sono Stato pubblicando Aggiornamenti Regolari Nella Ajax - de Godenzonen filo Nella Guida del giocatore e della Squadra forum of this.

- Riposa in pace, Johan .. -

 

this tactic is amazing ... I would like to download it but I do not understand where you are able to do...can you help???

[alinp]

3 hours ago, riccardo6630 said:

 

this tactic is amazing ... I would like to download it but I do not understand where you are able to do...can you help???

all the detail to re-create this are in the opening post - and discussion upon variations is within the thread.  There's no need for a download, nor do I believe, was that ever the point.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

14 hours ago, Tyler42 said:

I used your tactic for a mid-tier team in Iceland that had a very small squad, having to depend on youth players to fill in for injured first-team players. 
And I won the league! I do minor adjustments according to each match, but the passing play, build up and fluid play is beautiful. My old tactic was my attempt to replica the Icelandic counter-attack style, with average success. But this one turned it around. My problem is leaky defense, but the fact I have only 1 Part-Time defender and the other two on a Non-Contract, I think it kind of shows how bad my resources were. And I had a GK that was injured almost half the season and having a 16yr fill in.

Wow, this is great - success in the Icelandic lower leagues, fantastic!!

 

6 hours ago, Contexx said:

Really interesting thread.  I've been playing around with 3 cb tactics recently, and managed to make a pretty effective 3142, although it was vulnerable to 433, and I was left with constant headaches regarding what to do with my wide players.  I couldn't exactly trust them as "wingers", and defensive wingers just seemed to leave us too vulnerable when missing tackles, and didn't offer enough in attack for my liking.  Having accepted a job with Hoffenheim in the Bundesliga, I found they had been playing 352 with wingbacks, which had left them in the relegation zone, short on attacking wingers, and in a mess.  What they did have was good, quick strikers.

So wingbacks it had to be then!  Playing on structured, it seemed to really take care of attacking wingers.  The problem was it would turn too much into a 532, leaving too many gaps.  What would inevitably happen is a speedy Konan-esque winger could simply strart running with the ball from deep, and by the time he was closed down, he will have already made it into a dangerous position.  Without wishing to hijack the thread, the answer was to turn my team "very fluid".  It ensured more movement between lines, especially in defense.  Players would "help out" on defense more.  More importantly, when one wingback would step up to deal with danger, the other would drop into the defensive line (of sorts) in order to maintain a sort of "back four".  The beautiful thing with using so many generic roles and a very fluid shape is that every member of the team is involved.  Early days yet, but what I'm noticing is the defense being less "solid" in the traditional sense, but much more active, especially when pressing.  I'm seeing more interceptions leading to counters, rather than tackles which would lead to clearances.  Also,  because players are less restricted by position, they're more available to receive incisive passing.  What it reminds me of is Croatia around Euro 2008, under Bilic, where the compactness of the team would force the opposition into mistakes, without having to fully press so much, and they could play their way out of trouble via shorter passes. 

Anyway, I don't mean to hijack the thread, just to offer some observations on the advantages of very fluid shape

Very interesting. I actually made similar observations in an Ajax save during the beta.

My issue was the 3-man defence being stretched and isolated by a 3-man attack. 3v3 in that area of the field will always be a risky proposition but last year I didn't have too much of an issue as my wingers dropped back.

Now, what I am unsure of is the root of the issue.

• Is it a tactical change? I know decision making has got better so perhaps the opposition are attacking a 3-man defence more effectively..
• Is it simply that I am comparing Ajax first season squad with a squad with fully-developed stars, in the prime of their game and having used the system for 2-3 years, and similar systems evolving towards this for 5-6..

I suspect a mixture of both.

My initial solution has been a 4-1-4-1 which I like a lot. My only issue is the 'romantic' idea of wanting to play a 3-4-3. If I play 4-1-4-1 against 3-man attacks, I play 4-1-4-1 around 70% of the time, in the modern football.

More to follow..

[James9]

9 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Wow, this is great - success in the Icelandic lower leagues, fantastic!!

 

Very interesting. I actually made similar observations in an Ajax save during the beta.

My issue was the 3-man defence being stretched and isolated by a 3-man attack. 3v3 in that area of the field will always be a risky proposition but last year I didn't have too much of an issue as my wingers dropped back.

Now, what I am unsure of is the root of the issue.

• Is it a tactical change? I know decision making has got better so perhaps the opposition are attacking a 3-man defence more effectively..
• Is it simply that I am comparing Ajax first season squad with a squad with fully-developed stars, in the prime of their game and having used the system for 2-3 years, and similar systems evolving towards this for 5-6..

I suspect a mixture of both.

My initial solution has been a 4-1-4-1 which I like a lot. My only issue is the 'romantic' idea of wanting to play a 3-4-3. If I play 4-1-4-1 against 3-man attacks, I play 4-1-4-1 around 70% of the time, in the modern football.

More to follow..

Ozil will you be doing a write up on the 4141. I always admire this shape and I always want to play it with Arsenal but the problem has always been what to do with Mesut Ozil. Would like to get your thoughts on and feedback on suggestions on how to play Ozil on a 4141 formation.

[Anaconda Vice]

1 hour ago, James9 said:

Ozil will you be doing a write up on the 4141. I always admire this shape and I always want to play it with Arsenal but the problem has always been what to do with Mesut Ozil. Would like to get your thoughts on and feedback on suggestions on how to play Ozil on a 4141 formation.

He said he is thinking of doing a write up earlier in the thread I believe. Plus the "more to follow" should hopefully mean yes.

Ozil is very helpful with all his ideas and tactics so I am sure we will see it soon.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

15 hours ago, Anaconda Vice said:

He said he is thinking of doing a write up earlier in the thread I believe. Plus the "more to follow" should hopefully mean yes.

Ozil is very helpful with all his ideas and tactics so I am sure we will see it soon.

Yes, it's on the way. I am working on trying to combine the 3-4-3 with two variants of 4-1-4-1 in order to adapt the team, mid-game if necessary, to target opposition weaknesses whilst playing to our strengths and maintaining the same style of play. It's requiring some very versatile players so taking a while to have the development quite right.

[fmjames]

Thanks so much for this Ozil, great tactic! Had a lot of fun with it in my first season and now building my team around it.

Just one question: Do you use any PIs for closing down more/less?

I've got my DLP(d) on Close Down Less so he holds his position. Just wondering if you used this for any other positions?

Thanks!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

44 minutes ago, fmjames said:

Thanks so much for this Ozil, great tactic! Had a lot of fun with it in my first season and now building my team around it.

Just one question: Do you use any PIs for closing down more/less?

I've got my DLP(d) on Close Down Less so he holds his position. Just wondering if you used this for any other positions?

Thanks!

Nope, only the central holding player.

[fmjames]

28 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Nope, only the central holding player.

Great, thanks.

[enders357]

This is an incredible thread - I love the tactical side of FM, and this has given me such inspiration. On FM16 I replicated Simeone's narrow 4-4-1-1 wth quick transitions, but I wanted to try something more fluid and free-flowing this time around.

One question (and apologies if you've answered this already - I did look, and hopefully I didn't miss it), but could you see this working with wing-baks rather than wingers? I ask because I'm a Tottenham fan (but I come in peace, @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!) and want to play with them before finding a proper save to get stuck in to. With Walker and Rose that seems to make more sense, but I worry that will negatively affect the high press. Thoughts? Could those players play effectively in the W-A positions you have here?

Edited November 17, 2016 by enders357

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, enders357 said:

This is an incredible thread - I love the tactical side of FM, and this has given me such inspiration. On FM16 I replicated Simeone's narrow 4-4-1-1 wth quick transitions, but I wanted to try something more fluid and free-flowing this time around.

One question (and apologies if you've answered this already - I did look, and hopefully I didn't miss it), but could you see this working with wing-baks rather than wingers? I ask because I'm a Tottenham fan (but I come in peace, @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!) and want to play with them before finding a proper save to get stuck in to. With Walker and Rose that seems to make more sense, but I worry that will negatively affect the high press. Thoughts? Could those players play effectively in the W-A positions you have here?

You should have no problem playing with wingbacks as long as they can attack, otherwise you'll lack width.

Another option is to play a wingback in the MR/L position. They generally learn the role quickly then you get the defensive / work rate of the wingback and the quick transition in attack from the winger role.

Most of the time I do a wingback one side and an out-and-out winger the other.

[alvaan]

19 hours ago, enders357 said:

This is an incredible thread - I love the tactical side of FM, and this has given me such inspiration. On FM16 I replicated Simeone's narrow 4-4-1-1 wth quick transitions, but I wanted to try something more fluid and free-flowing this time around.

One question (and apologies if you've answered this already - I did look, and hopefully I didn't miss it), but could you see this working with wing-baks rather than wingers? I ask because I'm a Tottenham fan (but I come in peace, @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!) and want to play with them before finding a proper save to get stuck in to. With Walker and Rose that seems to make more sense, but I worry that will negatively affect the high press. Thoughts? Could those players play effectively in the W-A positions you have here?

 

I've been playing this style now for 4 seasons with Man Utd, and Luke Shaw has been amazing on the left wing. I would assume that the Spurs fullbacks, or ie Bellerin would be equally good as wingers once trained in the position. 

http://prntscr.com/d8xzqs

[enders357]

17 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

You should have no problem playing with wingbacks as long as they can attack, otherwise you'll lack width.

Another option is to play a wingback in the MR/L position. They generally learn the role quickly then you get the defensive / work rate of the wingback and the quick transition in attack from the winger role.

Most of the time I do a wingback one side and an out-and-out winger the other.

I played two matches with Rose and Walker in the MR/L positions W-A's last night and they got 5 assists and a goal between them, and we were solid defensively too. I love this tactic!

[SRVRG]

This is amazing, I found it late during fm16 and struggled to implement it in 17 but I am loving trying to. Excellent work and I am looking forward to your 4141 updates. Keep up the good work dude.

[asepuhuybok]

Hello oezil,

What is the role duty of 2 CM? in the opening post there is only one Central Midfielder(S) but other is Central Defender(D), I believe typo is it? And what is proper or basis CM player instruction to have a diamond shape?

I just try to learn how to use diamond player perfectly.

[SRVRG]

1 hour ago, asepuhuybok said:

Hello oezil,

What is the role duty of 2 CM? in the opening post there is only one Central Midfielder(S) but other is Central Defender(D), I believe typo is it? And what is proper or basis CM player instruction to have a diamond shape?

I just try to learn how to use diamond player perfectly.

i believe both are support.

[alvaan]

Just had my best season as of yet

[SRVRG]

excellent, currently 5th in my 3rd season with southampton. did you use the 2 4141 formations for that season?

[alvaan]

Just now, SRVRG said:

excellent, currently 5th in my 3rd season with southampton. did you use the 2 4141 formations for that season?

No, I've used the 3511 since day one, and this is 2020/2021 season

[SRVRG]

Just now, alvaan said:

No, I've used the 3511 since day one, and this is 2020/2021 season

Cool, can't wait for that. I'm not sure my team is good enough yet.

[Anaconda Vice]

8 hours ago, alvaan said:

Just had my best season as of yet

You used the original from the first post on FM17?

[James9]

On 17/11/2016 at 15:38, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Nope, only the central holding player.

Ozil would you ever use full backs as wingers in your tactics. Playing as Arsenal and I have Bellerin and Monreal who are naturally full backs but I was thinking of using them as Wingers. I was thinking of Bellerin and Ox could compete for the Right Wing position and Iwobi and Monreal can compete for the Left Wing Position. 

I think this tactic could allow me to get more of the excellent Arsenal Midfielders into the game. 

What are your thoughts on the current Arsenal Team with Xhaka and Mustafi and will these players be able to fit in this set up.

I think we need an additional Central Defender and maybe a more physical player in the DLP Defend position. What are your thoughts.

Do you think it will be possible to play Control+ Structured with the same TI with this formation.

[alvaan]

On 21.11.2016 at 11:30, Anaconda Vice said:

You used the original from the first post on FM17?

Yes, more or less. I have put the goalie on SKa and put 'work into box' on as well. The aim with this save is to in the end have a title winning team with just players from my own academy, so there are some ups and downs in the seasons. 

[SRVRG]

2 hours ago, alvaan said:

Yes, more or less. I have put the goalie on SKa and put 'work into box' on as well. The aim with this save is to in the end have a title winning team with just players from my own academy, so there are some ups and downs in the seasons. 

do you find the sweeper keeper change makes much of a difference?

[wwxxyyzz]

17 hours ago, James9 said:

Ozil would you ever use full backs as wingers in your tactics. Playing as Arsenal and I have Bellerin and Monreal who are naturally full backs but I was thinking of using them as Wingers. I was thinking of Bellerin and Ox could compete for the Right Wing position and Iwobi and Monreal can compete for the Left Wing Position. 

I think this tactic could allow me to get more of the excellent Arsenal Midfielders into the game. 

What are your thoughts on the current Arsenal Team with Xhaka and Mustafi and will these players be able to fit in this set up.

I think we need an additional Central Defender and maybe a more physical player in the DLP Defend position. What are your thoughts.

Do you think it will be possible to play Control+ Structured with the same TI with this formation.

Bellerin is really good in this formation.

[James9]

1 hour ago, wwxxyyzz said:

Bellerin is really good in this formation.

Are you playing with Arsenal?. Do you mind sharing how you set up the formation with Arsenal in terms of player roles and duties. 

[wwxxyyzz]

7 minutes ago, James9 said:

Are you playing with Arsenal?. Do you mind sharing how you set up the formation with Arsenal in terms of player roles and duties. 

I did so in FM16

 

I would look to buy a new CB to partner Koscielny and Mustafi, and maybe a new DLP(d). Ramsey and Wilshere as the CM(s). I bought Draxler for the ML spot and he was amazing. Then Ozil and Sanchez as the AMC and ST

[alvaan]

3 hours ago, SRVRG said:

do you find the sweeper keeper change makes much of a difference?

Depends on the goalie. I am still using De Gea, which doesn't have the sweeper keeper PPM's, but my backup kid does, and he comes out alot more than De Gea to sweep a few of those through balls. 

[alvaan]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I have games now and again where I just get completely run over in the central of midfield, especially with through balls behind the centre CB. This was happening on quite a frequent basis when I played Phil Jones as the centre CB, and I took a look at how the goals went in. I tried lowering the closing down for the middle centrebacks, which seemed to work better, and have been using it since. It still occurs that the centre CB goes way too far up, almost past the DLP to close down, and since my other 2 CB's are fanned out, it leaves tremendous space in the middle. However, this only occurs maybe 1 in every 10-20 games, and I haven't been able to put my finger to why.

Have you had any similar issues, and if so, how did you rectify it? (anyone else who's reading this thread and had similar issues feel free to give me your input) 

[Chase Failey]

Just wanted to say I tried this in the middle of my first season with Man Utd and hot damn, once the team get comfortable with the formation it's almost like a cheat code!

A handful of games into the 2nd season and it's still amazing, thoroughly OP 

[luka_zg]

I am using this in Argentina 2nd division with Argentinos Juniors. Since I switched to this we have been absolutely on fire! 19 games, 13wins and 6 draws and 12 points lead already. It is just brilliant system. The problem is when going against 4-3-3, but I find that just placing wingers as wingbacks does the job.

Anyway , I just love how the team playes offensively. Beautiful.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 23 November 2016 at 12:23, alvaan said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I have games now and again where I just get completely run over in the central of midfield, especially with through balls behind the centre CB. This was happening on quite a frequent basis when I played Phil Jones as the centre CB, and I took a look at how the goals went in. I tried lowering the closing down for the middle centrebacks, which seemed to work better, and have been using it since. It still occurs that the centre CB goes way too far up, almost past the DLP to close down, and since my other 2 CB's are fanned out, it leaves tremendous space in the middle. However, this only occurs maybe 1 in every 10-20 games, and I haven't been able to put my finger to why.

Have you had any similar issues, and if so, how did you rectify it? (anyone else who's reading this thread and had similar issues feel free to give me your input) 

Just took a look at Phil Jones and he seems to have been downgraded, either this year or on recent versions since I last looked. He's at Stoke on my game and that seems the right level so I'm not sure who you're managing but you may need to upgrade.

The issues I observed were being stretched and overrun against 3 man attacks. Not overly regularly, but when punching above your weight in Europe it could be a problem.

 

4 hours ago, Chase Failey said:

Just wanted to say I tried this in the middle of my first season with Man Utd and hot damn, once the team get comfortable with the formation it's almost like a cheat code!

A handful of games into the 2nd season and it's still amazing, thoroughly OP 

Fantastic. Glad it's working out for you!

 

1 hour ago, luka_ said:

I am using this in Argentina 2nd division with Argentinos Juniors. Since I switched to this we have been absolutely on fire! 19 games, 13wins and 6 draws and 12 points lead already. It is just brilliant system. The problem is when going against 4-3-3, but I find that just placing wingers as wingbacks does the job.

Anyway , I just love how the team playes offensively. Beautiful.

Great stuff. Enjoy! 

[Johan 14 Cruyff]

Absolutely Fantastic write up Mesut

Edited December 2, 2016 by Johan 14 Cruyff

[asepuhuybok]

On 11/25/2016 at 20:09, luka_ said:

I am using this in Argentina 2nd division with Argentinos Juniors. Since I switched to this we have been absolutely on fire! 19 games, 13wins and 6 draws and 12 points lead already. It is just brilliant system. The problem is when going against 4-3-3, but I find that just placing wingers as wingbacks does the job.

Anyway , I just love how the team playes offensively. Beautiful.

So this is the solution against wide formation (ex 433,4231) is it? pull down the wingers to the WB ?

Thank you

[Lufcberg22]

Just loading up my first Newcastle United save and i will be giving this ago.  Maybe build another 2nd & 3rd tactic for different oppositions formation. A fanatastic write up this! Well in @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[The Laughing Man]

This tactic has worked brilliantly for me in the premiership. I am several seasons in and have assembled an excellent west ham side. I have good ball playing dc's with reece oxford, vallejo, john stones and lemos. For the mid3 I have pogba, melegoni and bazoer, with and some newgens as backup. for centre forwards I have lemar, dembele, payet, dybala, griezman, kane and ze gomez, basically several of whom can play wing, amc, or striker. I feel bad because I have some excellent fullbacks in bellerin and cresswell, but don't really need them with this system.

I have been dominating possession, creating a lot of chances and scoring more goals than my old 4231/442 st-ups, I think I am going to walk the league.

The only issue I have been having is - what to change during a match? I feel slightly redundant as a manager, as I basically only need to choose subs. I have found if I am patient I will typically score more goals than the opposition without changing anything.

I have been trying to develop a 2 striker variant, with one of the dc's pushed up to be a half back in the dmc position.

[Azza2306]

Hey Ozil I am currently managing Rangers and have tried to come up with a 4-1-2-3 variant using close to the same style. If you could have a look and let me know what you think that would be great. (At work so no screenshots just yet.)

                                                      DLF (S)

W(S)                                                                                    IF(S)

                                         CM(S)     CM(A)

                                                   DLP(D)

FB(S)                            CD(D)        CD(D)                    FB(A)

                                                GK(D)

I used the same TI's but took it of Very Fluid when my team just ran around like headless chickens and dropped it to Flexible and dropped the defensive line to Normal. This resulted in a 4-1 win after being 1-0 down. I have Celtic next so that should be a test. Any feedback would be great.

Cheers

[StayUnited]

Bit unrelated to this tactic but how on earth do you keep all your key players at Ajax? I'm playing FM16 and in half a season Klaassen and Bazoer both want to leave the club. Absolutely frustrating given that both are 2 of the best current young talents Holland has to offer.

Regardless, I love the way my team passes the ball with such fluidity and creativity. Well done on this tactic!

Edited December 20, 2016 by StayUnited

[BillHoudini24]

Hello Ozil, big fan of your overall work, you gave me inspiration to start looking tactics in another way. One quick question:

I've been trying to do something similar in terms of philosophy since I'm a big Cruyff/Guardiola fan, with a twist though. I'm trying to play with 3(!) strikers instead of 2 Inside Forwards. What is your opinion on this? Could it work in the long term? Right now it's working well, but I think it's due to my strikers' quality and the fact that I caught the oppositions off guard with this formation.

This is the formation, along with the roles and the instructions. Forwards are instructed to Close Down Much More, Tight Mark and especially the F9s to Roam From Position.

I know that playing with that many specialists isn't fitting to the Fluid Mentallity, but I'm still experimenting.

 

 

[jurwouters]

Are there important/useful PPMs to have on the players? I use this tactic and it's working brilliantly.

I am Hellas Verona

The only downside is that my DLP always gets a very low rating compared to other players. He has a pass completion of 90% but I think they are all very simple passes. Is this supposed to be?