Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Ozil... in the Spilverlagerung article on the 92 game v Sampdoria it mentions the False 9 movement of Laudrup - with Stoichkov moving like an Inside Forward and Juan Carlos moving to the flank. Do you have any thoughts on re-creating this movement in FM? The way I see it it's impossible but interested to hear your views on it.

I have something similar to this running, but I've also used the same base as this and re-hashed the roles and have something similar to the way Turkey played in the 2002 World Cup - fantastic football.

I really hope that for FM17 we have an Attacking Centre Back role - as has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, the 3 at back is too inflexible when against a lone striker or on attack - would be nice to have one step up into midfield a-la Alaba. You're right though, the passing options from the back 3 when looking to dominate possession are superb.

Have you read any articles on Ricardo La Volpe and Salida Lavolpiana?

Between your tactic in the OP and La Volpe, this is how I like to play (out of defence).

Yes, I did see the section on the Stoichkov / Juan Carlos movement but I don't particularly see the benefit. I like to maintain the position of the diamond as much as possible, until the ball is in the final 3rd of the pitch. Obviously taking a player out would lose the diamond early.

And, no. I can't say I recognise either of those names?

Great thread.

Should your CDs (or maybe just the 2 wider ones) be defenders first and foremost or could they be players who are like Riedewald and technically sound so more like a CM than a CB - Alaba, Can or Vidal for example.

I'd say you just need decent ball-playing centrebacks. I have no preference over whether is the player is a centre back or midfielder, as long as he has the right attributes. If you're using a midfielder I recommend you ensure they have good positioning. This is certainly a problem for 1-2 of those players mentioned.

Examples of players I used successfully, have been Riedewald, Bazoer, Ajer, Nkoulou, Veltman, Andreu Fontas, Sergi Gomes, David Costas, Jonny, Chambers.. to name a few.

[sqirg]

I have found that the AM(A) plays very high up during the build-up phase (pretty much alongside the striker at times, breaking the midfield diamond). I have changed this role to AP(A) and I find that it works well. The AP(A) plays a little deeper, links the play extremely well and helps maintain more of a diamond in midfield.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I have found that the AM(A) plays very high up during the build-up phase (pretty much alongside the striker at times, breaking the midfield diamond). I have changed this role to AP(A) and I find that it works well. The AP(A) plays a little deeper, links the play extremely well and helps maintain more of a diamond in midfield.

Fortunately, I have not seen that problem. It could very well come down to differences between the individual player, perhaps a PPM, off the ball ability, mentality or just where the gaps in the opposition defence are.

Regardless, in a Very Fluid system an attacking midfield role will function very similarly to a playmaker and the choice certainly won't make or break the system.

However, I have two concerns with any playmaker role over the attacking midfielder role:

1. The 'playmaker' mechanism making other players force a pass to the AM when another non-playmaker team mate is in a better position (this is less of a concern for the DM as he is in so much more space).
   
2. The AM(A) joins the attack as a second striker when the ball reaches the final 3rd, creating the 3-3-4 shape illustrated above. This gets me a lot of goals.

[coach vahid]

Hi Ozil

Do you use TI close down much more or close down more cause im a little bit confuse with the TI 's screen you post and the text when you mention close down much more...excuse me if im not too clear.

Thanks

[vogado86]

Do you use any opposition instructions?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Hi Ozil

Do you use TI close down much more or close down more cause im a little bit confuse with the TI 's screen you post and the text when you mention close down much more...excuse me if im not too clear.

Thanks

Thanks for pointing that out. Hadn't noticed. I would use much more, but as you can see from the screenshot the difference is fairly minimal to say the least.

[craiigman]

Someone has finally managed to master this tactic. I made a post a while back asking if it was possible, and you've knocked it right out the park with this. Great work.

[Anaconda Vice]

I found this tactic very difficult to get working not because it is not a good tactic but rather the time needed to implement it. I plugged in with Barcelona and PSG and it dominated some games and did not work so well in others. I think this highlights the dedication in the development of your players which is needed to get such a system to work.

I think you have done an excellent job with this tactic and thread mate.

NOTE: Do you put HOLD POSITION on the players in your diamond.

[thejay]

Very interesting post, how would you construct a system with the same philosophy but the 433 version?

I am struggling to get this formation right in fm using a possession approach.

Also what do you do when you do not want your wide players to cross often , as you put them in mr ml positons as wingers , they have this instruction.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Someone has finally managed to master this tactic. I made a post a while back asking if it was possible, and you've knocked it right out the park with this. Great work.

Thank you very much - glad you found it useful!

I found this tactic very difficult to get working not because it is not a good tactic but rather the time needed to implement it. I plugged in with Barcelona and PSG and it dominated some games and did not work so well in others. I think this highlights the dedication in the development of your players which is needed to get such a system to work.

I think you have done an excellent job with this tactic and thread mate.

NOTE: Do you put HOLD POSITION on the players in your diamond.

Absolutely. You'll notice that I never, at any point, claimed that this is a plug and play tactic. That's largely due to the squad development required. To be honest, I think that's fair given the number of clubs in real life playing a Cruyff diamond In general you need lots and lots of creative, technical, hard working midfielders. Play the bigger ones with higher positioning further back and the more agile, unpredictable ones further forward.

I rarely use Hold Position. For me, maintaining the diamond is about not roaming away, so excludes "box-to-box" midfielders etc. Ven de Beek holds position but that's more so he is a close passing option for the holding midfielder and very player specific.

Very interesting post, how would you construct a system with the same philosophy but the 433 version?

I am struggling to get this formation right in fm using a possession approach.

Also what do you do when you do not want your wide players to cross often , as you put them in mr ml positions as wingers , they have this instruction.

Here are two examples of 4-3-3s, following the same approach:

Check out the Ajax thread in the Player & Team guide forum where I talk about the tactic in more detail.

On crossing - I always want crossing. In my opinion it is a very effective way to get the ball into goalscoring positions and without it the flanks are somewhat wasted. With smaller players, I use low crossing.

[gunnerfan]

Great article. It looks like the six midfielders, with five across, make an effective defensive barrier against top-heavy systems like the 4-2-3-1 that offsets the potential danger of allowing a bit too much space on the wings.

What kinds of in-match adjustments do you find yourself making?

[thejay]

Thank you very much - glad you found it useful!

Absolutely. You'll notice that I never, at any point, claimed that this is a plug and play tactic. That's largely due to the squad development required. To be honest, I think that's fair given the number of clubs in real life playing a Cruyff diamond In general you need lots and lots of creative, technical, hard working midfielders. Play the bigger ones with higher positioning further back and the more agile, unpredictable ones further forward.

I rarely use Hold Position. For me, maintaining the diamond is about not roaming away, so excludes "box-to-box" midfielders etc. Ven de Beek holds position but that's more so he is a close passing option for the holding midfielder and very player specific.

Here are two examples of 4-3-3s, following the same approach:

Check out the Ajax thread in the Player & Team guide forum where I talk about the tactic in more detail.

On crossing - I always want crossing. In my opinion it is a very effective way to get the ball into goalscoring positions and without it the flanks are somewhat wasted. With smaller players, I use low crossing.

How about the problem with ifs on attack not really tracking the fullback, I have always had this problem when using them on attack duty.

And what is the advantage of playing a flat 3 and not a 2 with a dm in midfield?

[henkheikens]

do you use some OI to make the pressing better? like only pressing on defenders and wingbacks?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Great article. It looks like the six midfielders, with five across, make an effective defensive barrier against top-heavy systems like the 4-2-3-1 that offsets the potential danger of allowing a bit too much space on the wings.

What kinds of in-match adjustments do you find yourself making?

It's quite a high intensity system so it's often substitutes just to bring a fresh player in. Particularly the wingers, cover a lot of ground. Sometimes I'll switch up the midfield, bring on a more creative player i.e Nouri. The other change I regularly make is to bring on a classic striker - you don't need to change any instructions but he'll play differently to a more creative player.

If you're struggling to score you can gamble, increasing mentality. Please consider that in a Very Fluid mentality this increases the whole team so if you Attack / Overload, your defenders go crazy forward so use with caution.

How about the problem with ifs on attack not really tracking the fullback, I have always had this problem when using them on attack duty.

And what is the advantage of playing a flat 3 and not a 2 with a dm in midfield?

3v2 is more compact, with and without the ball. A DM reduces your defensive line so creates a bigger gap. A defensive role in the MC strata also positions them right in the centre circle when you're in possession which is a particularly strong position. You'll notice I use this in both systems.

Never had a problem with the IF pressing. Very Fluid forces the team to defend as a unit so they're always pretty well involved.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

do you use some OI to make the pressing better? like only pressing on defenders and wingbacks?

To be honest, I rarely see the OI making a difference however it certainly can't hurt.

[gunnerfan]

It's quite a high intensity system so it's often substitutes just to bring a fresh player in. Particularly the wingers, cover a lot of ground. Sometimes I'll switch up the midfield, bring on a more creative player i.e Nouri. The other change I regularly make is to bring on a classic striker - you don't need to change any instructions but he'll play differently to a more creative player.

If you're struggling to score you can gamble, increasing mentality. Please consider that in a Very Fluid mentality this increases the whole team so if you Attack / Overload, your defenders go crazy forward so use with caution.

I was thinking more in terms of adjusting player roles or using PIs. I used this in one of my matches today, as my squad is neck-deep in quality mids and central defenders and a bit thin on strikers. The only problem I saw was at halftime, when I checked the average positions w/o ball - one of my CMs was consistently out of position, set way forward. In the second half I switched his role to B2B, which seemed to help. I might also move him up to the AM spot, which he can play. In any event, on my squad it needs tweaking, but looks quite playable.

I know what you mean about going to a more attacking mentality on very fluid. We only won, 1-0, but I was never tempted to up the mentality. :-)

3v2 is more compact, with and without the ball. A DM reduces your defensive line so creates a bigger gap.

In one of Cleon's threads, he had three at the back, with the middle back playing as a BPD/Cover. I think that puts him a tad deeper and brings the two other CDs a bit closer together. I may try that here, especially when facing a two-striker system.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I was thinking more in terms of adjusting player roles or using PIs. I used this in one of my matches today, as my squad is neck-deep in quality mids and central defenders and a bit thin on strikers. The only problem I saw was at halftime, when I checked the average positions w/o ball - one of my CMs was consistently out of position, set way forward. In the second half I switched his role to B2B, which seemed to help. I might also move him up to the AM spot, which he can play. In any event, on my squad it needs tweaking, but looks quite playable.

I know what you mean about going to a more attacking mentality on very fluid. We only won, 1-0, but I was never tempted to up the mentality. :-)

In one of Cleon's threads, he had three at the back, with the middle back playing as a BPD/Cover. I think that puts him a tad deeper and brings the two other CDs a bit closer together. I may try that here, especially when facing a two-striker system.

Interesting - re: your midfielder.. check his PPMs. Klaassen is very aggressive in my team. He does get forward but it tends to be very effective. Be careful with the Box-to-Box midfielder role - it simply a Central Midfielder (Support) role with Roam from Position. I am not sure why this constitutes a Box-to-Box midfielder in the Tactics Creator's eyes, but it is what it is. Personally I don't want my midfielder roaming. I want him in the middle of the field, in the thick of the action.

Ball Playing Defender would be no problem - be sure to check what actually changes BPD v DC as, if I recall, it lengthens passing and risky passes. Make sure you trust the player enough to play risky passes in that position!!

[gunnerfan]

Interesting - re: your midfielder.. check his PPMs. Klaassen is very aggressive in my team. He does get forward but it tends to be very effective. Be careful with the Box-to-Box midfielder role - it simply a Central Midfielder (Support) role with Roam from Position. I am not sure why this constitutes a Box-to-Box midfielder in the Tactics Creator's eyes, but it is what it is. Personally I don't want my midfielder roaming. I want him in the middle of the field, in the thick of the action.

Good point. I thought of a BWM, but then he might not get forward enough. Needs more tweaking.

Ball Playing Defender would be no problem - be sure to check what actually changes BPD v DC as, if I recall, it lengthens passing and risky passes. Make sure you trust the player enough to play risky passes in that position!!

Yes, I found that out the hard way. :-). Ah, well, it was only one goal.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Good point. I thought of a BWM, but then he might not get forward enough. Needs more tweaking.

Well, a midfield support role gives you a balanced mentality with additional creative freedom. Using player instructions you can have him get forward more, or hold position, play risky or safe passes, short or long, run with the ball etc using Player Instructions - what more would you want to do?

The difference between a ball winning midfielder and a central midfield support is only closing down and tackling.

An important concept to understand is that the player role names are very plastic and everyone has different interpretations - personally, I stay away from Complete Wing Backs, Ball Playing Centre Backs, Half-Backs, Box-to-Box Midfielders, unnecessary Playmakers, Trequartistas, Enganches, Poachers, Ramdeuter (sp).. most of the ones with the fancy names. I don't quite trust the False 9.

Yes, I found that out the hard way. :-). Ah, well, it was only one goal.

As long as it's not in the 90th minute of the Champions League final with the scores tied at 0-0

[Anaconda Vice]

Trying again with Bayern Munich. My first 11 is as follows.

---------------Neuer-----------------

--Benatia---Boateng---Alaba-------

Muller-Vidal-Bazoer-Alonso-Bernat

--------------Gotze------------------

----------Lewandowski--------------

Alonso is maybe the weak link. Seen good performances from Gotze, Lewa, Bernat, Muller and Bazoer. Alaba is fantastic in defence. What are your opinions on this 11?

[MichaelBrown]

Thank you very much - glad you found it useful!

Absolutely. You'll notice that I never, at any point, claimed that this is a plug and play tactic. That's largely due to the squad development required. To be honest, I think that's fair given the number of clubs in real life playing a Cruyff diamond In general you need lots and lots of creative, technical, hard working midfielders. Play the bigger ones with higher positioning further back and the more agile, unpredictable ones further forward.

I rarely use Hold Position. For me, maintaining the diamond is about not roaming away, so excludes "box-to-box" midfielders etc. Ven de Beek holds position but that's more so he is a close passing option for the holding midfielder and very player specific.

Here are two examples of 4-3-3s, following the same approach:

Check out the Ajax thread in the Player & Team guide forum where I talk about the tactic in more detail.

On crossing - I always want crossing. In my opinion it is a very effective way to get the ball into goalscoring positions and without it the flanks are somewhat wasted. With smaller players, I use low crossing.

What team instructions do you use with this?

I currently use a successful 4-4-2 which uses an WPa on the left wing, but with this formation you use two IFa's (Odegaard being one). How does Odegaard work in this formation? Does he still get assists? Have you tried an APa on the wing?

[inosensu]

Absolutely loving this tactic. Started a new game with Ajax and was kind of forced to play with three at the back due to Dijks being injured. I'm using Klaassen as a shadow striker behind complete forward El Ghazi (Milik's out for six months with a broken leg), which is working great. Schöne is on the right as a wide playmaker and scores above average ratings almost every game, giving lots of assists. We're completely destroying defences with high tempo passing, through balls and one-twos; I've never seen such great football being played on FM.

[DanP123]

Currently trying this with Manchester United.

---------------------De Gea-----------------

-----Christensen---Smalling---Romagnoli-------

Bernado Silva-Herrera-Geis-Alaba-Memphis-

------------------------Mata------------------

-------------------Martial---------------------

It's working well so far. Creating plenty of chances and seeing a lot of good link-up play between players. Only seem to be managing around 53% possession in each game at the moment and I'm looking to get that up to around 60% and higher. The one thing I will say about it is that my wide players aren't suited to the role they have in the team. Both set at W-A but they cut in far too much, and when I swap them for Luke Shaw and Nelson Semedo, those two play the role much better and stay wider always.

[yatamayanadam]

Good post. I tried something similar to this with fm 2015 and fm 2016. I'm happy to see that someone explaining this style of play.

I played with "counter" mentality with 3-5-1-1 similar to this. My RCB and LCB are stopper and CB is cover. Other roles are the same as yours. Sometimes i used DLF(S) instead of CF(S).

[gunnerfan]

An important concept to understand is that the player role names are very plastic and everyone has different interpretations - personally, I stay away from Complete Wing Backs, Ball Playing Centre Backs, Half-Backs, Box-to-Box Midfielders, unnecessary Playmakers, Trequartistas, Enganches, Poachers, Ramdeuter (sp).. most of the ones with the fancy names. I don't quite trust the False 9.

I look at them as specific tweaks to a general position, a shorthanded way to refine the role. I actually use the False 9 quite a lot, as well as the Raumdeuter (someone on the forum recently referred to this as a "space sniffer", which I think is a much better name). But it's important to understand how the PIs they bring affect play, which is why, lately, I find myself keeping highlights on "full" mode a lot more than I used to. And even then it isn't always clear.

As long as it's not in the 90th minute of the Champions League final with the scores tied at 0-0

Nah, it was in the first half of my third match of the season - against Aston Villa. And we won, 3-1.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Trying again with Bayern Munich. My first 11 is as follows.

---------------Neuer-----------------

--Benatia---Boateng---Alaba-------

Muller-Vidal-Bazoer-Alonso-Bernat

--------------Gotze------------------

----------Lewandowski--------------

Alonso is maybe the weak link. Seen good performances from Gotze, Lewa, Bernat, Muller and Bazoer. Alaba is fantastic in defence. What are your opinions on this 11?

Having not managed Bayern before, I cannot pass too much comment on the players attributes but it looks like an extremely strong team. Defenders are known as good ball-playing defenders with strong positioning. Alonso and Vidal offer interesting balance either side of Bazoer, Gotze and Lewandowski will be perfect up front. The only possible ? would be Muller on the left wing. I am not familiar with his stats but this is a very physical role, requires pace, fitness and a hard worker. May be worth playing someone different there and rotating Muller with Gotze / Lewandowski.

Absolutely loving this tactic. Started a new game with Ajax and was kind of forced to play with three at the back due to Dijks being injured. I'm using Klaassen as a shadow striker behind complete forward El Ghazi (Milik's out for six months with a broken leg), which is working great. Schöne is on the right as a wide playmaker and scores above average ratings almost every game, giving lots of assists. We're completely destroying defences with high tempo passing, through balls and one-twos; I've never seen such great football being played on FM.

Fantastic!! Thank you for the feedback. Delighted to hear it's working for you.

Currently trying this with Manchester United.

---------------------De Gea-----------------

-----Christensen---Smalling---Romagnoli-------

Bernado Silva-Herrera-Geis-Alaba-Memphis-

------------------------Mata------------------

-------------------Martial---------------------

It's working well so far. Creating plenty of chances and seeing a lot of good link-up play between players. Only seem to be managing around 53% possession in each game at the moment and I'm looking to get that up to around 60% and higher. The one thing I will say about it is that my wide players aren't suited to the role they have in the team. Both set at W-A but they cut in far too much, and when I swap them for Luke Shaw and Nelson Semedo, those two play the role much better and stay wider always.

Yes, I agree. I often found wing backs more effective than attacking midfielders due to fitness and workrate. Shaw should be perfect.

This is not necessarily a tactic for the superstar attacking midfielders..

[DMH]

I found myself having some troubles with trough balls to strikers attacking the space between the CB and R/L CBs.

Is it worth playing with a narrow width to close downs these gaps? O maybe switching the R/L CBs to Stoppers? I was planning to try these changes when I get back home...

My back trio is:

Kempf-Romagnoli-Süle

[Ricochets]

hi where is the link

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I found myself having some troubles with trough balls to strikers attacking the space between the CB and R/L CBs.

Is it worth playing with a narrow width to close downs these gaps? O maybe switching the R/L CBs to Stoppers? I was planning to try these changes when I get back home...

My back trio is:

Kempf-Romagnoli-Süle

How many times has this happened? I had Anthony Martial give me an absolutely torrid time in one Champions League tie and a handful of other pacey strikers also caused trouble over the years - however, over the course of 5 seasons it was fairly rare. Part of this is a risk you take playing such a high line, you could reduce the defensive line but then you'll lose some of the compactness.

It's all a tradeoff.

Perhaps also check the pace, concentration, anticipation and positioning of your defenders. The stronger they are in these areas, the more you'll mitigate the problem.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

What team instructions do you use with this?

I currently use a successful 4-4-2 which uses an WPa on the left wing, but with this formation you use two IFa's (Odegaard being one). How does Odegaard work in this formation? Does he still get assists? Have you tried an APa on the wing?

Watch this space. I am actually using a 4-4-2 in a different save at the moment, and it's going very well..

[DMH]

How many times has this happened? I had Anthony Martial give me an absolutely torrid time in one Champions League tie and a handful of other pacey strikers also caused trouble over the years - however, over the course of 5 seasons it was fairly rare. Part of this is a risk you take playing such a high line, you could reduce the defensive line but then you'll lose some of the compactness.

It's all a tradeoff.

Perhaps also check the pace, concentration, anticipation and positioning of your defenders. The stronger they are in these areas, the more you'll mitigate the problem.

Thanks for the advice!

Checked my match history and yes...fast strikers tend to have better match ratings and statistics against us.

The offensive side is going really great, as the team creates a lot of goal chances and not only from crosses...great stuff!

[coach vahid]

Hi Ozil.

Im struggle to find players with attributes you write about.

Is there priorities between technical, mental or physical ?

Thanks.

[Anaconda Vice]

hi where is the link

It's not a plug and play. Although if you want the tactic you can read the article Ö-zil to the Arsenal! wrote and make it from that. He spent a lot of time making it, so do read it.

[sqirg]

I've started a new game with Ajax using this tactic. The aim is to win the CL with an academy/Dutch 11.

First season I signed Dirk Kuyt, Pablo Aimar... Jonathon Walters as tutors

[MichaelBrown]

Watch this space. I am actually using a 4-4-2 in a different save at the moment, and it's going very well..

My 4-4-2 works well, close to perfect actually.

What I meant is have you tried AP's on the wing instead of IF. I'm curious because I'd be interested to see the results.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Hi Ozil.

Im struggle to find players with attributes you write about.

Is there priorities between technical, mental or physical ?

Thanks.

That's certainly a big part of the challenge. That's why I made the second post about developing the players yourself.

You can safely say that mental & technical > physical for this type of football. You'll find lots of players who are great playmakers but don't have the workrate / stamina. Sadly it's very difficult to develop work rate, so that is generally part of my attribute search when considering new players.

I've started a new game with Ajax using this tactic. The aim is to win the CL with an academy/Dutch 11.

First season I signed Dirk Kuyt, Pablo Aimar... Jonathon Walters as tutors

Yes, you'll end up with some odd players as tutors!

My 4-4-2 works well, close to perfect actually.

What I meant is have you tried AP's on the wing instead of IF. I'm curious because I'd be interested to see the results.

Not in the 4-3-3 as I use my wingers as wide strikers, but I do use that role in a 4-4-2 and I like it. That and Regista are probably my favourite of the playmaker roles.

[MichaelBrown]

My 4-4-2 has a playmaker on the left with a W(a) on the right. It turns into a 4-2-2-2 in attack, whilst a coherant 4-2DM-2-2 in defence.

I was curious as a player in my team is coming to the end of his career, yet he's still incredibly influential. A DLPd would allow two runners either side and an attacking playmaker further up the pitch alongside the IFa.

Sorry if that makes little sense haha.

[Jonny2J]

Absolutely love this concept man.

[sqirg]

You can safely say that mental & technical > physical for this type of football. You'll find lots of players who are great playmakers but don't have the workrate / stamina. Sadly it's very difficult to develop work rate, so that is generally part of my attribute search when considering new players.

When scouting young players (16/17 year-olds), what would you look for in terms of stamina and workrate? A minimum of 13 for stamina and 13 for workrate?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

When scouting young players (16/17 year-olds), what would you look for in terms of stamina and workrate? A minimum of 13 for stamina and 13 for workrate?

I don't worry too much about stamina because that can be trained. I look for players who have 8+ in the majority of attributes and high work rate - I love it if I see a player with 15+. I'll snap them up, tutor and train them for a year and then start giving them game time at incrementally higher levels until they're ready for the first team.

[Anaconda Vice]

Right, I am off for the next week so I will have plenty of time to implement this system.

Just a couple of things I want to ask:

1) I notice you said that you would look to have Plays One Twos and Plays Short Simple Passes however Che Nunnely does not have them in a screenshot. Is this rule limited to certain positions? I am thinking the PPM's go a long way to making the tactic work as well as the work rate stat.

2) Did you find there was a period of settling in time before the tactic worked efficiently?

3) I am thinking of using the set up with Barcelona who have players with some low work rates such as Messi. Would you consider getting rid of such players?

Thanks for any help with the questions.

[Craigus89]

This is fantastic mate, well done.

Have you noticed any issues with playing a WB at Winger? You mention that you like to train players at positions that give them a good spread of attributes, but if a WB isn't used to playing as a Winger, are you better off training them as a Winger rather than say a Complete Wing Back until they are Competent in their position?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1) I notice you said that you would look to have Plays One Twos and Plays Short Simple Passes however Che Nunnely does not have them in a screenshot. Is this rule limited to certain positions? I am thinking the PPM's go a long way to making the tactic work as well as the work rate stat.

Che's development was interesting - I tried to retrain him as an inside forward to have him cutting in from the left side, but throughout, he maintained the attributes of a winger hence how he ended up playing as a winger but was not trained any PPMs.

2) Did you find there was a period of settling in time before the tactic worked efficiently?

No longer than any other system. You need to get the team familiar with the tactic quickly but this is done after a well-organised pre-season and the first few league games. After that, it's just a case of having the right players.

3) I am thinking of using the set up with Barcelona who have players with some low work rates such as Messi. Would you consider getting rid of such players?

That's a big question. It is true that Messi does not necessarily fit the system. Do you get rid of the best player of all-time because he doesn't fit your system or do you play a more appropriate system? I am not qualified to answer that question for you!

This is fantastic mate, well done.

Have you noticed any issues with playing a WB at Winger? You mention that you like to train players at positions that give them a good spread of attributes, but if a WB isn't used to playing as a Winger, are you better off training them as a Winger rather than say a Complete Wing Back until they are Competent in their position?

Thank you.

Quite the opposite. Wingbacks have done very well. They typically have very well rounded attributes and, as long as they're attacking wingbacks, it doesn't take long to retrain. Normally comfortable in the position within weeks (again, use pre-season wisely) and natural within a year or so.

[Anaconda Vice]

Thank you for the reply.

So basically the two PPMs should be given to all positions expect the wingers?

I am going to try this tomorrow when I get up. I have noticed when I done a test last time with Barcelona and this tactic I lost to Athletic Bilbao twice in the first two games of the season. Probably due to the fact the PPM's had not been learnt as the tactic was fully fluid.

I will keep you updated with my progress and if anything is going wrong we can look at it from there.

Thanks for this thread as it has really revived my interest in this game.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Thank you for the reply.

So basically the two PPMs should be given to all positions expect the wingers?

Yes, where possible.

I am going to try this tomorrow when I get up. I have noticed when I done a test last time with Barcelona and this tactic I lost to Athletic Bilbao twice in the first two games of the season. Probably due to the fact the PPM's had not been learnt as the tactic was fully fluid.

Assigning the blame for two loses to a vastly inferior side simply to PPMs is likely a major oversight.

Playing this system at Barcelona I would be concerned about what you do with Messi and Neymar. Suarez is perfect for the Complete forward role and one of them could play behind the striker, but if you put them on the wings you may have a problem with work rate.

Assuming you have the balance of the team correct and individuals suited to the system, you still have to consider their familiarity with the system, team morale, fitness etc, etc, etc..

That's why I don't upload the tactic as a plug-and-play download. Every team is different.

[tejas]

Brilliant thread Ozil. Out of interest what's the goal output from both your wingers? Do you see them get on the end of through balls often and get shots away?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Brilliant thread Ozil. Out of interest what's the goal output from both your wingers? Do you see them get on the end of through balls often and get shots away?

It's actually interesting.

in 2018/19, the first season I played this formation I had Zivkovic up front, with Nunnely and Ake on the wings. At this point Zivkovic was a pacy forward, approaching his prime. He scored 30+ goals and earned himself a big-money move to Real Madrid. As a converted defender Ake didn't score many but physically was a beast and Nunnely got a lot of assists but few goals.

The second season - 2019/20, also the season I write about above - I replaced Zivkovic with Kjuipers who came through the Academy. Kjuipers was a natural attacking midfielder - an intelligent player with good technique, team work and an unpredictable dribbler, but not a natural goalscorer.

With more of a 'False 9' type player up front - but playing the exact same tactical instructions - Nunnely and van Leeuwen both scored 20+ goals each whilst Kjuipers contributed 15 or so.

Summary - with an out-and-out striker, the wingers return was modest but with a more creative, team-oriented player they can be top scorers.

[yonko]

O-zil, I would like to ask you what is your take on using Offside Trap instruction? I'm curious to know why I don't see you ticking it in any of your tactics, seeing as you already have the highest D-Line and the most intense Closing Down? Have you experimented with it at all, either in your 3-5-1-1 or 4-3-3?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

O-zil, I would like to ask you what is your take on using Offside Trap instruction? I'm curious to know why I don't see you ticking it in any of your tactics, seeing as you already have the highest D-Line and the most intense Closing Down? Have you experimented with it at all, either in your 3-5-1-1 or 4-3-3?

I am actually using it at the moment in a 4-4-2 and it works very well. I'll use Offside Trap when I have a very intelligent defensive player to play in a DC (Cover) spot as I like to have one person responsible for the trap, rather than 2 or 3.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]