Rickooko

AN IDEA: Removal of PA, Addition of "Learning Rate"

113 posts in this topic

For long i have not been fond of the idea of PA, which limit how far a players can go once he was regened. Instead, i have come up with an idea of "Learning Rate" [LR]

In the new player developing system:

1. There will still be CA, which represent their current overall abilities.

2. There will be no PA, which means a players can go beyond CA 200, if that is the case.

3. There will be the addition of LR, the Learning Rate.

How does LR work:

- LR come with regen players in a similar fashion of PA, lets say a player start with a -10PA, instead, now he will have 10 LR.

- LR rate from 1 to 10, the higher, the faster a player can develop his CA under the same time period.

- A wonderkid, for example, might born with a LR of 10.

Alternation of LR during playing career:

The following events can add bonus to the LR of players: [in decimal, eg + 0.15 etc....]

- Good training facilities

- Good Coach

- Good Morale/Happiness

- Match Practice [The higher the competition level, the more LR bonus]

- Good Tutoring

- Special Events

- Good Professionalism, Work rate, Determination

The following events will deduct LR from players: [NOTE: LR can result in negative number, which means declining of abilities/CA]

- Aging [slowing decrease the LR of a player, for old players, this penalty will bring the LR to negative number -> declining in CA]

- Poor training facilities

- Poor Coach

- Poor Morale/Happiness

- Lack of Match Practice

- Bad Tutoring

- Special Events

- Poor Professionalism, Work rate, Determination

- Complacency

- Injury

With the the introduction of LR and removal of PA, now the players can:

1. If you do everything right and with luck, an average talent player with LR 8 [with all those bonus applied], can developed as much as a player with LR 10.

2. In contrast, if everything goes wrong, even a wonderkid of LR 10 can be wasted [with all those penalties applied]

3. It is now possible for late career abilities boost if everything goes right. [eg. Lukas Toni]

4. It is now possible for early career abilities collapse if everything goes wrong. [eg. Veron]

5. Players abilities will now fluctuating a lot during their players career like in real life. [With PA this will never happened]

6. It is now possible to have truely legendary player developed in your own game, if he get all the lucks in development. There will be no limit to how far his CA can go.

This is the general concept, i think it have the potential if get developed properly. :)

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To make the LR system more complicated........:D

There is something call "Maintaining Rate", which is:

1. For CA 190+, players need a LR of 9 to maintain it, and a LR 9+ to further develope the CA.

2. For CA 180+, players need a LR of 8 to maintain it, and a LR 8+ to further develope the CA.

3. For CA 170+, players need a LR of 7 to maintain it, and a LR 7+ to further develope the CA.

etc....

Which means a player really need a good combination of talent and lucks in their career in order to gain really high CA. Meanwhile, they will always have the chance to fail to maintain or even lost their abilities if not paying attention.

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this is pretty much what pa does anyway, they have a maximum ability, like we all do, and whether they reach that ability depends on the factors you listed, coaches,facilities etc.

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But the CA of the players are never fluctuating like which does IRL.

Also, i think it is unrealistic once your scouts say a regen have little potential [so you know he has low PA], then his fade is already fixed at such a young age. A lot of things can happened during his career.

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I'm not a big fan of static PA, but LR seems overly complicated. Is LR not just non-static PA?

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All that the game needs at the moment is to improve the player development model. PA is the most realistic way to represent potential, but at the minute the way a players CA increases/decreases is much too linear.

If this is improved so that more factors effect the rate that CA increases/decreases then this will be pretty much the same as what you're suggesting.

It should not be the case that any player can reach PA200+ if they get the right training etc, because this is definitely not the case in real life.

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I think PA should be kept at a negative number, as is given in the DB, or to regens.

A wonderkid at the start of the game should maintain the value "-10" rather than his PA being defaulted to anywhere between 170-200.

That way, given the right conditions, he has the potential to be a superstar, provided he applies himself consistently and professionally throughout his career.

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I think PA should be kept at a negative number, as is given in the DB, or to regens.

A wonderkid at the start of the game should maintain the value "-10" rather than his PA being defaulted to anywhere between 170-200.

That way, given the right conditions, he has the potential to be a superstar, provided he applies himself consistently and professionally throughout his career.

but what makes a wonderkid better talent than others, is already his ability- CA at that age. that's why his potential is bigger. PA should be limited by CA. and not fixed.

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I'm not a fan of static PA, but any kind of growth curve that has no cap is always dangerous in an algorithm because things like that with lots of variables feeding into the growth rate are almost impossible to keep very tightly coontrolled - if even a small number of cases find some bizarre combination of input attributes that cause their growth to go through the roof it would be totally unacceptable so a cap is by far the easiest way to control this.

That said, there is obviously room for improvement in the development model that takes a player from his start CA towards that PA value and also for the potential for a moving PA in much the same way that Maximum attendance for a club is a cap, but only for the current foreseeable circumstances - if you take a club from the BSP to the Premiership that cap rises, but it is still a cap.

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All that the game needs at the moment is to improve the player development model. PA is the most realistic way to represent potential, but at the minute the way a players CA increases/decreases is much too linear.

If this is improved so that more factors effect the rate that CA increases/decreases then this will be pretty much the same as what you're suggesting.

Yea, i totally agree there should be more factors effect the rate CA increases/decreases to make the game more realistic.

Although it seems that the "learning rate" is pretty much the same as PA, but i just think PA is somehow unrealistic as there should not be a "cap" in ability. (Although it will make things easier)

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poor training facilities should not effect the player's potential ability.

They don't effect the PA figure. They effect the likelyhood of a player reaching the PA.

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Why whats wrong with it?

Well I was hoping not to get into the discussion tbh, but I can't be rude and ignore this :)

IMO there should be grading within a players PA that is dependent on facilities, level of football played etc. So if a player is at Wigan he has a PA of 160, which he can achieve at Wigan no problem, but he then moves to a title challenger, becomes an International regular and has experience of continental football, IMO IRL a player would be able to improve further (but he would still be limited).

In other words;

Player A at Wigan reaches his PA of 160 playing in the lower half of the Premiership, he then moves to Chelsea is playing with better players, under a better manager, in Europe etc he will probably improve further. A static PA does not account for this, he will always be as good as he was when he left Wigan and he can't be better than that.

Not many people agree with me, but I have to make it clear I don't think every player can reach a PA of 200, i'm only talking about 5 or so PA points difference depending on level of football etc.

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Teddy Sheringham is a player who was at an age that most people thought he couldn't really improve much further, but his move to Man Utd IMO improved him beyond his perceived PA.

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Well I was hoping not to get into the discussion tbh, but I can't be rude and ignore this :)

IMO there should be grading within a players PA that is dependent on facilities, level of football played etc. So if a player is at Wigan he has a PA of 160, which he can achieve at Wigan no problem, but he then moves to a title challenger, becomes an International regular and has experience of continental football, IMO IRL a player would be able to improve further (but he would still be limited).

In other words;

Player A at Wigan reaches his PA of 160 playing in the lower half of the Premiership, he then moves to Chelsea is playing with better players, under a better manager, in Europe etc he will probably improve further. A static PA does not account for this, he will always be as good as he was when he left Wigan and he can't be better than that.

Not many people agree with me, but I have to make it clear I don't think every player can reach a PA of 200, i'm only talking about 5 or so PA points difference depending on level of football etc.

Thats not how the system currently works! :)

Reseachers give PA ratings independent of which team they are currently at. It is their max potential ability under perfect conditions. Not everyone has the capability to be a superb player.

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I don't like static PA because I think the idea that you have a set potential ability that you can never exceed before you even kick a football is rubbish.

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Teddy Sheringham is a player who was at an age that most people thought he couldn't really improve much further, but his move to Man Utd IMO improved him beyond his perceived PA.

Again, you have misunderstood how the PA system works :)

Reseachers give PA ratings independent of which team they are currently at. It is their max potential ability under perfect conditions. Not everyone has the capability to be a superb player.

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Or his PA was always high enough - the potential was always there. But there was a large enough gap between CA and PA, and that gap got bridged once Teddy moved to United.

The problem with having a variable PA, or a "learning rate" as this thread terms it, is that it will just further the divide between bigger and smaller clubs. For example, consider someone like Paulo Ferreira. Chelsea bought him, gave him top training, a lot of first team action, etc. In a variable PA system, all the factors exist for Ferreira to push his PA and become a truly world class player. However, what happened in real life? He did not develop his game and after two years of first team football he lost his place in the Chelsea line-up. Maybe he had already exhausted his ability before moving to Chelsea, that was as good as he got? Same thing happened with Asier del Horno.

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I don't like static PA because I think the idea that you have a set potential ability that you can never exceed before you even kick a football is rubbish.

Not everyone has the genetic makeup to become a world superstar and so not everyone has the same potential

No matter what training I have at what team, under what manager I would never be as good as Cristiano Ronaldo and thus if I'm in the game I would have a potential much much much lower than his.

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I don't like static PA because I think the idea that you have a set potential ability that you can never exceed before you even kick a football is rubbish.

everyone has a potential ability, no matter how much training i do there will at some point be a cieling i hit where i can improve no more, same with anyone realy.

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Well I was hoping not to get into the discussion tbh, but I can't be rude and ignore this :)

IMO there should be grading within a players PA that is dependent on facilities, level of football played etc. So if a player is at Wigan he has a PA of 160, which he can achieve at Wigan no problem, but he then moves to a title challenger, becomes an International regular and has experience of continental football, IMO IRL a player would be able to improve further (but he would still be limited).

In other words;

Player A at Wigan reaches his PA of 160 playing in the lower half of the Premiership, he then moves to Chelsea is playing with better players, under a better manager, in Europe etc he will probably improve further. A static PA does not account for this, he will always be as good as he was when he left Wigan and he can't be better than that.

Not many people agree with me, but I have to make it clear I don't think every player can reach a PA of 200, i'm only talking about 5 or so PA points difference depending on level of football etc.

that's it. but maybe a better example would be if player A came from league 1 side, or from let's say belgium 1st division (and I'm not saying these two leagues are equal).

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Again, you have misunderstood how the PA system works :)

Reseachers give PA ratings independent of which team they are currently at. It is their max potential ability under perfect conditions. Not everyone has the capability to be a superb player.

No no, I understand that and that's fair enough, what I mean is that reaching that maximum should be under perfect conditions, what I mean is grading within PA dependent on conditions. ATM a player at Bayern Munich can achieve his maximum potential playing for them, IMO he would then improve further playing at a club like Barcelona. Of course there has to be a set PA, but I think there should be a grading system of how clsoe you get to that PA depending on the conditions.

I.e. This player has a PA of 180, he can achieve 160 at Spurs, 170 at Bayern Munich and reach the top 180 at Barcelona.

A player achieving a PA of 180 in a league standard similar to the Bundesliga, but it being impossible to improve on that when he moves to La Liga seems strange to me. Yes 180 should be his limit, but he should never achieve that in the Bundesliga.

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everyone has a potential ability, no matter how much training i do there will at some point be a cieling i hit where i can improve no more, same with anyone realy.

but can you actually say where is your limit or how far can you develop? of course everyone has a limited potential ability. but it is influenced by many many factors and you cannot predict it accuratly.

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No no, I understand that and that's fair enough, what I mean is that reaching that maximum should be under perfect conditions, what I mean is grading within PA dependent on conditions. ATM a player at Bayern Munich can achieve his maximum potential playing for them, IMO he would then improve further playing at a club like Barcelona. Of course there has to be a set PA, but I think there should be a grading system of how clsoe you get to that PA depending on the conditions.

I.e. This player has a PA of 180, he can achieve 160 at Spurs, 170 at Bayern Munich and reach the top 180 at Barcelona.

A player achieving a PA of 180 in a league standard similar to the Bundesliga, but it being impossible to improve on that when he moves to La Liga seems strange to me. Yes 180 should be his limit, but he should never achieve that in the Bundesliga.

You've lost me. What are you actually asking for in the game?

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Not everyone has the genetic makeup to become a world superstar and so not everyone has the same potential

No matter what training I have at what team, under what manager I would never be as good as Cristiano Ronaldo and thus if I'm in the game I would have a potential much much much lower than his.

Obviously, but determining what that potential is the moment someone comes out of the youth system and it remaining at that level forever just seems like a bad way of doing things.

Some people can achieve things (not being world class obviously, but a level above what one might expect) through sheer hard work whereas someone else of equal seeming potential talent at the age of 14 might be a lazy sod who fails to go on to achieve anything.

Sure that brings in the progression towards PA again, but they are both tied together.

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Yea, i totally agree there should be more factors effect the rate CA increases/decreases to make the game more realistic.

Although it seems that the "learning rate" is pretty much the same as PA, but i just think PA is somehow unrealistic as there should not be a "cap" in ability. (Although it will make things easier)

Of course there should be a cap in ability. Look at it this way, if Man Utd take on 10 kids at 15 years old who all have roughly the same ability and they give these players the same training and the same amount of first team football will they all, 10 years later, be of identical ability? No, because everyone has a limit at how good they can be at something no matter how hard they try and what opportunities they're given.

This is PA, and in real life it is pretty much set by the time you're 15/16 (the time when you would enter the game on FM)

This whole argument about whether PA should be in the game or not is pointless anyway. This is a hidden thing that is not meant to be viewed. If it isn't viewed then there isn't a problem as you end up with some players becoming good, and some players getting to a point where they no longer improve, which is perfectly realistic. Even some players who start out in excellent youth setups are only ever destined for conference football.

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No no, I understand that and that's fair enough, what I mean is that reaching that maximum should be under perfect conditions, what I mean is grading within PA dependent on conditions. ATM a player at Bayern Munich can achieve his maximum potential playing for them, IMO he would then improve further playing at a club like Barcelona. Of course there has to be a set PA, but I think there should be a grading system of how clsoe you get to that PA depending on the conditions.

I.e. This player has a PA of 180, he can achieve 160 at Spurs, 170 at Bayern Munich and reach the top 180 at Barcelona.

A player achieving a PA of 180 in a league standard similar to the Bundesliga, but it being impossible to improve on that when he moves to La Liga seems strange to me. Yes 180 should be his limit, but he should never achieve that in the Bundesliga.

The game should be capable of doing that, as the bigger clubs would have better coaches, better training facilities, a manager that looks after the players better etc.

Those PAs for each club would then have to change if the club improves its facilities, or every time it changes some of its coaching staff. Not really worth the trouble.

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No no, I understand that and that's fair enough, what I mean is that reaching that maximum should be under perfect conditions, what I mean is grading within PA dependent on conditions. ATM a player at Bayern Munich can achieve his maximum potential playing for them, IMO he would then improve further playing at a club like Barcelona. Of course there has to be a set PA, but I think there should be a grading system of how clsoe you get to that PA depending on the conditions.

I.e. This player has a PA of 180, he can achieve 160 at Spurs, 170 at Bayern Munich and reach the top 180 at Barcelona.

A player achieving a PA of 180 in a league standard similar to the Bundesliga, but it being impossible to improve on that when he moves to La Liga seems strange to me. Yes 180 should be his limit, but he should never achieve that in the Bundesliga.

For once I disagree with you Nomis ;)

To me what you're asking for is what I want, a change to the development model to make it less static. However, this doesn't require any change to how PA works, it just requires more factors to have a more pronounced impact on a players CA. Basically CA should be a lot more prone to go up and down depending on the things you mention such as quality of club, league, training facilities etc.

But I still maintain that every player should have a set limit to how good they can be and this should remain static, only CA should change.

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Of course there should be a cap in ability. Look at it this way, if Man Utd take on 10 kids at 15 years old who all have roughly the same ability and they give these players the same training and the same amount of first team football will they all, 10 years later, be of identical ability? No, because everyone has a limit at how good they can be at something no matter how hard they try and what opportunities they're given.

This is PA, and in real life it is pretty much set by the time you're 15/16 (the time when you would enter the game on FM)

This whole argument about whether PA should be in the game or not is pointless anyway. This is a hidden thing that is not meant to be viewed. If it isn't viewed then there isn't a problem as you end up with some players becoming good, and some players getting to a point where they no longer improve, which is perfectly realistic. Even some players who start out in excellent youth setups are only ever destined for conference football.

oh come on, you can come better than with this ;)

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I don't like static PA because I think the idea that you have a set potential ability that you can never exceed before you even kick a football is rubbish.

Personally I think this is the most realistic way of doing it. In my opinion your potential at anything is a direct result of two things; genetics and childhood experiences. So genetically someone might have a talent for music. But if they are not encouraged as a child this may go un-noticed and undeveloped. By the time they're 16 there potential for musical talent will be pretty much set. If they start practicing then, due to their genetics and the way they were brought up, there will be a certain ability they can reach and not exceed no matter how hard they try. They may only reach this level of ability by being coached by the best music teacher etc, but that's CA again.

The same can be said for footballers. By the time they reach 15/16 (the age they enter the game) their potential is set by everything that has gone before and cannot be changed. Only their ability to reach that potential now matters.

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oh come on, you can come better than with this ;)

Not you again :D

I promised myself I'd ignore all future CA/PA debates after spending weeks having some excellent discussions with you about it, but I guess I'm a sucker for punishment ;)

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I think i've confused everyone, and probably even myself :confused:

What i'm asking for, isn't a change to PA per se, it's a limit on the chances a player has achieving PA. The static PA would remain and the player at the top of his game with everything going well would have a PA of 180, but I don't think a player should be able to reach that PA playing for Bayern Munich.

Player A has a PA of 180, he starts out at Spurs. Now IMO the best he could hope for CA wise at Spurs is 160 (unless of course Spurs improve a hell f a lot), so his PA remains at 180, but because of his current conditions he cannot achieve more than 160.

He then moves to Bayern Munich, where the conditions are better than that of Spurs, so his CA can go further, but he still shouldn't be able to reach his ultimate PA, there is a cap at 170 because of the conditions.

Then he ends up at Barca, where everything is perfect and finally he can achieve his full potential.

The PA score remains the same throughout, but his ability to achieve anything close to it is more dependent on conditions than it currently is. In other words PA isn't variable, his overall PA is 180, but the best he can hope for at Spurs is 160.

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I think i've confused everyone, and probably even myself :confused:

What i'm asking for, isn't a change to PA per se, it's a limit on the chances a player has achieving PA. The static PA would remain and the player at the top of his game with everything going well would have a PA of 180, but I don't think a player should be able to reach that PA playing for Bayern Munich.

Player A has a PA of 180, he starts out at Spurs. Now IMO the best he could hope for CA wise at Spurs is 160 (unless of course Spurs improve a hell f a lot), so his PA remains at 180, but because of his current conditions he cannot achieve more than 160.

He then moves to Bayern Munich, where the conditions are better than that of Spurs, so his CA can go further, but he still shouldn't be able to reach his ultimate PA, there is a cap at 170 because of the conditions.

Then he ends up at Barca, where everything is perfect and finally he can achieve his full potential.

The PA score remains the same throughout, but his ability to achieve anything close to it is more dependent on conditions than it currently is. In other words PA isn't variable, his overall PA is 180, but the best he can hope for at Spurs is 160.

Read what Scoham said a few posts back :)

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Not you again :D

I promised myself I'd ignore all future CA/PA debates after spending weeks having some excellent discussions with you about it, but I guess I'm a sucker for punishment ;)

I must admit your first post in this thread is hard to argue, but saying that you can actually fix PA at age of 15, 16 is strange. also your example of 10 MU players is extremly hypotetica and thus not relevant ;)

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I was playing FM08 last night and i noticed something. When the game is processing, it shows tips i.e. a goalkeeper coach trains the youth, reserves and the first team keepers etc etc. Well, i noticed this one for the first time and i was rather disappointed. It said, Players aged 24 and over will not see a dramatic improvement in their stats...... (there was more but i have forgot). That is telling me that although a player aged 24 might have a CA of 170 and his PA might be 192, his dribbling, passing, tackling etc will not get much higher. Surely this is wrong? A player aged 29 can get better at free kicks or corner taking if he trains at it more often. Anywhoo......erm c ya.

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For once I disagree with you Nomis ;)

To me what you're asking for is what I want, a change to the development model to make it less static. However, this doesn't require any change to how PA works, it just requires more factors to have a more pronounced impact on a players CA. Basically CA should be a lot more prone to go up and down depending on the things you mention such as quality of club, league, training facilities etc.

But I still maintain that every player should have a set limit to how good they can be and this should remain static, only CA should change.

this is a great point...I would like that.

but what do you think about 16 y.o. who have just a little room to reach their PA? isn't that strange...especially if they come from top football academies?

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I think i've confused everyone, and probably even myself :confused:

What i'm asking for, isn't a change to PA per se, it's a limit on the chances a player has achieving PA. The static PA would remain and the player at the top of his game with everything going well would have a PA of 180, but I don't think a player should be able to reach that PA playing for Bayern Munich.

Player A has a PA of 180, he starts out at Spurs. Now IMO the best he could hope for CA wise at Spurs is 160 (unless of course Spurs improve a hell f a lot), so his PA remains at 180, but because of his current conditions he cannot achieve more than 160.

He then moves to Bayern Munich, where the conditions are better than that of Spurs, so his CA can go further, but he still shouldn't be able to reach his ultimate PA, there is a cap at 170 because of the conditions.

Then he ends up at Barca, where everything is perfect and finally he can achieve his full potential.

The PA score remains the same throughout, but his ability to achieve anything close to it is more dependent on conditions than it currently is. In other words PA isn't variable, his overall PA is 180, but the best he can hope for at Spurs is 160.

I get your point but I think it's too simplified, I mean why couldn't that player reach his full potential at spurs or bayern? that's too big difference, you're talking about top clubs. your example should be more like divison 1 - premierleague.

I hope you get my point.

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I get your point but I think it's too simplified, I mean why couldn't that player reach his full potential at spurs or bayern? that's too big difference, you're talking about top clubs. your example should be more like divison 1 - premierleague.

I hope you get my point.

:thup: Even the 10 points is a bit too high IMO, I was using the examples and scores for effect rather than suggesting it should be the case for those clubs.

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I think the PA is probably the easiest way for the AI to understand and measure in the game.

But from what you are suggesting or from my understanding you are suggesting most of the things the PA works to.

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I don't get the people who don't think PA should be static - everyone has a maximum ability (PA) which can't be exceeded (if you do exceed it, you worked it out wrongly in the first place)

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Haven't read all the posts, but I'd just like to say I really like Rickooko's idea of LR. Well thought out and seems more realistic, as well as giving us the chance, as you said, to get a really outstanding player if everything goes right. It also enables the unknown; you never know how good your wonderkid will turn out, whereas if you know the PA of a player it's already limited and there's nothing you can do to go beyond that, which is quite demoralising once you know your player can't improve any further.

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There are too many threads like this.

I think the problem is the way the CA is spread. If I train my player in a certain schedule directed toward him being better at shooting (for example), I would expect his shooting to rise quicker and higher than the rest of his attributes as that is what I am TRAINING him to be better at. For example if all his stats were 10 I would expect everything to rise by 1 and his shooting to rise by 3. Taking up the proper amount of CA. Yet this does not happen on my games. I rarely see anyone improve much at all.

:(

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There are too many threads like this.

I think the problem is the way the CA is spread. If I train my player in a certain schedule directed toward him being better at shooting (for example), I would expect his shooting to rise quicker and higher than the rest of his attributes as that is what I am TRAINING him to be better at. For example if all his stats were 10 I would expect everything to rise by 1 and his shooting to rise by 3. Taking up the proper amount of CA. Yet this does not happen on my games. I rarely see anyone improve much at all.

:(

it's your tactics.

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this is a great point...I would like that.

but what do you think about 16 y.o. who have just a little room to reach their PA? isn't that strange...especially if they come from top football academies?

Not really. The youth academies of top clubs such as Man Utd, Chelsea, Milan etc will produce players every year and a large percentage of them will never make it as Premiership footballers, some will not even make a career in football at all. These players must have had decent CA as youngsters to get into the youth academy in the first place, but their low PA prevented them from improving enough to make it.

This is what happens in the game currently. Every year you get a group of players come through and some will not even be good enough to play above conference level, some will even retire from football completely. Some will be a little better and some might even be good enough to play in a top league. To me this is completely realistic.

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Thats not how the system currently works! :)

Reseachers give PA ratings independent of which team they are currently at. It is their max potential ability under perfect conditions. Not everyone has the capability to be a superb player.

Exactly. PA = MAXIMUM ability under perfect conditions. That's why little players reach a CA of 170+, even with 170+ PAs.

The PA model is correct and I don't think this suggestion adds nothing to it.

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