Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
James9

Gegenpressing - Tactical Set Up

Recommended Posts

Good Day FMers

I am writing this thread to get some advice and learn more from other tactical experts.

I am a big fan of Jurgen Klopp, Thomas Tuchel and Pep Gaurdiola all managers who use a form of Gegenpressing in their teams.

As you can tell I am all about Gegenpressing basically put pressure on the ball win it back quickly and go straight on the attack before they have a chance to organize their team shape.

So I want to play Gegenpressing so below I chose to use the following instructions and I explained why.

Control - I could have gone for attack but that would been too much and I did not want to loose my team shape too much. Plus I like controlling games with my Arsenal Team.

Fluid - I chose to see Fluid because I want offensive and defensive players to contribute to all phases of the game. I did not choose Very Fluid because I never really play with Very Fluid

Higher Tempo -I believe that if you play Gegenpressing then I need to use a higher tempo. Once we win the ball it is all about quick transitions. Thomas Tuchel Dortmund Team. When they win the ball it is straight into the opponent trying to catch them before they get a chance to set up their defensive shape.

Width - Fairly Narrow - I want to funnel most of attacks through the middle and it allows my wide midfielders to tuck inside and firm a tight unit. I also want clog the centre of the pitch

Slighty Higher Defensive Line - when playing Gegenpressing you have to use a higher defensive line so that the team pushes up and limits the space available and win the ball back

Offside Trap - Well if you have a high defensive line then uses offside trap helps with the long balls over the top and catching the other team offside.

Closing Down More - I think for Gegenpressing this is very important team instruction.

Shorter Passing. I am playing shorter passing with a higher tempo so that I move the ball around but at the same time at a higher tempo

Retain Possesion I chose to add this because I know that might team will attack quickly but I do not want them to be wasteful with ball if they cannot find a way through the defence I rather then keep the ball and re- plan the attack again.

Pass into space - I want my team to pass the ball into space. I am playing a 4-4-1-1 with wide midfielders so I am hoping this will create some space on the wings

Run at defence - I want my team to run at the defence when we have the ball

Work Ball into box - I do not want my team to waste opportunities also we will attack quickly with the higher tempo but if they cannot find that final ball quickly then I rather have them put a quality ball into the box than rush it and give the ball away.

Look for Overlapp - This allows my Wing Backs who are set to Support Duty to join the attack more.

Player Instructions

My Striker, Wide Midfielders and AMC are told to mark tighter and close down more. I am playing Gegenpressing so these players must put pressure on the opponent early

My Deep Lying Maker Support - Close Down More but not mark tight

BWM Defend - Pass Shorter

My Centre Backs - Close Down Less because I want them to retain their shape

This is what I think is needed for Gegenpressing tactic. I am open to get some advice on what can be added or removed from team instructions to make it work better.

So FMers please let me know your thoughts on feedback

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What have you noticed about how your system plays out so far? Does it look like Gegenpressing? If not, what are the issues?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What have you noticed about how your system plays out so far? Does it look like Gegenpressing? If not, what are the issues?

What I can see so far is that we press the ball well and we do not loose our shape too much I think this is because I am playing on Control instead of attack. Sometimes when we win the ball back and or in the opponents final third we play the ball around too much and get tackled or make a bad pass. Info have my DLP Support set to do more direct passes. I also play Advance Playmaker Attack and Advance Forward Attack up top.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Playing control and not attack doesnt mean you keep the shape. Shape is not influenced by the mentality (maybe in very small margins), If you want to keep your shape, playing fluid might not be the best ideea. You see, the more fluid you play, the more you tend to lose your shape. Keeping it means playing flexible, structured or the extreme highly structured. Difference between control and attack is like this: ex. your AMC gets the ball in the center of the pitch, now if you play control, he will look for someone to pass it to, but if you play attack, he will try a dribble, he will play more vertical. IMO, Gegenpressing followed by direct and decisive football is Structured - Attacking.

2. About your closing down mentality ... Now that is imo the trickyest of parts. You cant use that shout because your team will be all over the place and you wouldn't want that. Gegenpressing doesnt mean that you should be like a mad dog, but a mad dog in a controled space. Closing down instruction is where most people fail. Why ? Because is directly dependent on your formation, , roles and duties. I am afraid I cant give you constructive advise without screenshots or even the full tactic in front of me.

3. You use shorter passing. Now ... that is okay if you have attacking mentality if you use it as a general shout, but with control mentality is not at all what you want. Control + Shorter passing means that even if you get the ball back and there is space to be exploited, well ... you might not do that because your players might pass the ball back to a player that represents the "safety" option. Again, like I was saying about closing down: you can use it as general shout, but you need to give personal instructions to a certain degree of players to pass it More Direct and/or More Risky Passes. Otherwise you will end up playing (to a certain degree) like Barcelona: keep 65% posession and having 4-5 shots on target all game and lose 0-1. That was humor, but youi get the point :)

4. Pass into space is very good when implementing Gegenpressing, because when you get the ball back you then want to exploit the space and here is another tricky part: You said you play narrower, now thats perfectly fine, but again, you want some players to not stay always so narrow. Using pass into space means actual space, but the question is: will your players attacking that space ? From what I've seen in your tactic so far, they will most likely not because you play too cautious. In order to fully taking advantage of "pass into space" shout, you need midfield players or fullbacks/wingbacks with attacking duty, or support duty + get further forward. It can work with support duty, as long as the player have Gets Forward PPM. The ideea is that you need players that make forward runs and the only ones who can do that are the fullbacks and some of the midfielders. In specific situations it can also be a F9-Trequartista (in ST position) who is sitting deep and be ready to make a forward run.

As a final thaught about your tactic I can say that you won't be playing like Jurgen Klopp nor Tuchel, but maybe more like Guardiola. Long story short: If you want to be more like the germans, you want to play attacking with more direct passing and structured shape. I am kind'of'a football maniac so I am obsessed with tactics. If you've seen Liverpool-Borussia Dortmund last night, well there are all your answers to this thread, you just need to know how to read them and translate them into the ME language. I am uploading here 2 screenshots to showcase the structured (not fluid) shape of Liverpool. I am not doing that for Dortmund, because that is beyond obvious.

6DLX6na.jpg

VDIUnLG.jpg

I am playing FM15 with Schalke04 and I implemented this type of system and it's wonderful. I am not speaking about FM16 because imo the ME is .... (the moderators will delete my comment for a 100th time if I say). If you need any more of my insight, I can help you and I can give you some websites that will shed some light about FM tactical framework. If you need that, PM me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What I can see so far is that we press the ball well and we do not loose our shape too much I think this is because I am playing on Control instead of attack. Sometimes when we win the ball back and or in the opponents final third we play the ball around too much and get tackled or make a bad pass. Info have my DLP Support set to do more direct passes. I also play Advance Playmaker Attack and Advance Forward Attack up top.

You'll likely be playing the ball about because of retain possession. It slows down the play a bit and uses less risky passes while waiting for the right opening. It doesn't really tie in with the style. You're trying to create a high tempo all action style, retain possession could be stiffling it. Work ball into box will also play the ball around a bit instead of crossing it in when the opportunity rises.

Klopp always talks about having not much space between the lines, so fluid is probably the best team shape to use as your team will be more compact vertically. The person above is still on FM15 and I can see why he uses structured on that version, but on FM16, the vertical spaces change depending on your team shape. Very Fluid = most compact between lines, Very structured = most space between lines.

Assuming you're using a 4231/4411, a CM/D might be a better option for you in midfield as the BWM will just go crazy chasing the ball and leave big spaces to exploit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1. Playing control and not attack doesnt mean you keep the shape. Shape is not influenced by the mentality (maybe in very small margins), If you want to keep your shape, playing fluid might not be the best ideea. You see, the more fluid you play, the more you tend to lose your shape. Keeping it means playing flexible, structured or the extreme highly structured. Difference between control and attack is like this: ex. your AMC gets the ball in the center of the pitch, now if you play control, he will look for someone to pass it to, but if you play attack, he will try a dribble, he will play more vertical. IMO, Gegenpressing followed by direct and decisive football is Structured - Attacking.

2. About your closing down mentality ... Now that is imo the trickyest of parts. You cant use that shout because your team will be all over the place and you wouldn't want that. Gegenpressing doesnt mean that you should be like a mad dog, but a mad dog in a controled space. Closing down instruction is where most people fail. Why ? Because is directly dependent on your formation, , roles and duties. I am afraid I cant give you constructive advise without screenshots or even the full tactic in front of me.

3. You use shorter passing. Now ... that is okay if you have attacking mentality if you use it as a general shout, but with control mentality is not at all what you want. Control + Shorter passing means that even if you get the ball back and there is space to be exploited, well ... you might not do that because your players might pass the ball back to a player that represents the "safety" option. Again, like I was saying about closing down: you can use it as general shout, but you need to give personal instructions to a certain degree of players to pass it More Direct and/or More Risky Passes. Otherwise you will end up playing (to a certain degree) like Barcelona: keep 65% posession and having 4-5 shots on target all game and lose 0-1. That was humor, but youi get the point :)

4. Pass into space is very good when implementing Gegenpressing, because when you get the ball back you then want to exploit the space and here is another tricky part: You said you play narrower, now thats perfectly fine, but again, you want some players to not stay always so narrow. Using pass into space means actual space, but the question is: will your players attacking that space ? From what I've seen in your tactic so far, they will most likely not because you play too cautious. In order to fully taking advantage of "pass into space" shout, you need midfield players or fullbacks/wingbacks with attacking duty, or support duty + get further forward. It can work with support duty, as long as the player have Gets Forward PPM. The ideea is that you need players that make forward runs and the only ones who can do that are the fullbacks and some of the midfielders. In specific situations it can also be a F9-Trequartista (in ST position) who is sitting deep and be ready to make a forward run.

As a final thaught about your tactic I can say that you won't be playing like Jurgen Klopp nor Tuchel, but maybe more like Guardiola. Long story short: If you want to be more like the germans, you want to play attacking with more direct passing and structured shape. I am kind'of'a football maniac so I am obsessed with tactics. If you've seen Liverpool-Borussia Dortmund last night, well there are all your answers to this thread, you just need to know how to read them and translate them into the ME language. I am uploading here 2 screenshots to showcase the structured (not fluid) shape of Liverpool. I am not doing that for Dortmund, because that is beyond obvious.

6DLX6na.jpg

VDIUnLG.jpg

I am playing FM15 with Schalke04 and I implemented this type of system and it's wonderful. I am not speaking about FM16 because imo the ME is .... (the moderators will delete my comment for a 100th time if I say). If you need any more of my insight, I can help you and I can give you some websites that will shed some light about FM tactical framework. If you need that, PM me.

Great post, Valkyrie!

Really loved this analysis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will be following this with interest. Have always wanted to set up like this, but never been sure how too.

A template of TIs to pull this off would be fantastic base to build from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The first thing to keep in mind is that you can't replicate Klopp's style of pressing in the ME. Defending in the ME is based on traditional consolidation-style defending where second/third defenders keep shape and mark men in their zone whilst one player pressures. There are some instances of doubling up in flank areas, but it's very controlled and limited. Passing lane-oriented pressing is not really represented, and Klopp's particular style of evolved U8 defending in the defensive transition is nowhere to be seen.

With that said, the tactical instructions aren't nearly as important as the players and your ability to motivate them. The overall aim of Klopp's philosophy is to outwork and eventually overrun opponents by testing their physical resilience and psychological determination. This is why he places a monomaniacal emphasis on maximising the number of sprints and km run per match. But you can't get certain players to work like that just by telling them to push up and close down more. To get anything like that in FM, you need an entire team with world class Stamina and Work Rate. Aggression and Determination are also important, particularly in the midfield area, to ensure you have players who will constantly look to impose themselves on the match and take the fight to the opposition at every opportunity. If you're playing full mode, you should also put as many attribute points as possible into Motivating and favour assertive/passionate tones in team interactions.

From there, Klopp is actually fairly flexible and doesn't mind playing a counterattacking game from the halfway line, but to get what we mainly think of as the "gegenpressing" style, you shouldn't take half-measures with your TIs. You want to push up and close down as much as possible, and I'd also go for Very Fluid instead of Fluid to keep the space between the lines as compact as possible. You don't necessarily want to use Offside Trap as part of the point of counterpressing is to prevent long balls via pressure from the forwards, win the ball back in transition to exploit organisational lapses by the opposition and, above all, maintain a rapid rhythm that wears down the opposition. A defence based on an active offside trap, by comparison, tends to lead to more stoppages which gives the opposition time to catch their breath and consolidate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The first thing to keep in mind is that you can't replicate Klopp's style of pressing in the ME. Defending in the ME is based on traditional consolidation-style defending where second/third defenders keep shape and mark men in their zone whilst one player pressures. There are some instances of doubling up in flank areas, but it's very controlled and limited. Passing lane-oriented pressing is not really represented, and Klopp's particular style of evolved U8 defending in the defensive transition is nowhere to be seen.

With that said, the tactical instructions aren't nearly as important as the players and your ability to motivate them. The overall aim of Klopp's philosophy is to outwork and eventually overrun opponents by testing their physical resilience and psychological determination. This is why he places a monomaniacal emphasis on maximising the number of sprints and km run per match. But you can't get certain players to work like that just by telling them to push up and close down more. To get anything like that in FM, you need an entire team with world class Stamina and Work Rate. Aggression and Determination are also important, particularly in the midfield area, to ensure you have players who will constantly look to impose themselves on the match and take the fight to the opposition at every opportunity. If you're playing full mode, you should also put as many attribute points as possible into Motivating and favour assertive/passionate tones in team interactions.

From there, Klopp is actually fairly flexible and doesn't mind playing a counterattacking game from the halfway line, but to get what we mainly think of as the "gegenpressing" style, you shouldn't take half-measures with your TIs. You want to push up and close down as much as possible, and I'd also go for Very Fluid instead of Fluid to keep the space between the lines as compact as possible. You don't necessarily want to use Offside Trap as part of the point of counterpressing is to prevent long balls via pressure from the forwards, win the ball back in transition to exploit organisational lapses by the opposition and, above all, maintain a rapid rhythm that wears down the opposition. A defence based on an active offside trap, by comparison, tends to lead to more stoppages which gives the opposition time to catch their breath and consolidate.

Thanks for the feedback. I am playing as Arsenal and I will need to bring in the right players to play my brand of football. Do you think I need to change anything in my team instructions apart from changing Fluid to Very Fluid and removing the offside trap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ibhavevtobsay a big thank you to Guido over ATMs Strikerless and Der FM. They have both gave me some insight on Gegenpressing and how to set it up in FM 16. I know playing this way is a risk vs reward butvibyjink it is worth it to get the kind of football I like watching which is fast attacking football, closing down the opposition. Thomas Tuchel even said it "attack is the best form of defence". I will be using the 4-1-4-1 set up. I am going with Half Back in the DMC. I dearly want this player dropping between the Center backs and recycling position from deep. I have BEM watching videos of Julian Weigl of Dortmund and the way he plays is what I want to replicate.

This is a very solid formation andbI can turn into a 4231 or 433 with the selection of role and duties. I have every thing set up and I am even will to invest time in training Ozil to play as a False 9 so that he can fit in my system.

I do not think Ozil is hard enough for the midfield battle. He has some amazing attributes and I yjink he can be more effective further upfield where he can feed my two Wide Midfielders and Box to Box Midfielder with through balls. After much soul searching I am going train Ozil to become a False 9. I know Cleon achieved great things with Ozil as a False 9 in one of his tactics. Hopefully Cleon will read my post and give some feedback on the set up he used with Ozil.

Well I am going back to read some more blogs and website in Gegenpressing, Thomas Tuchel and everything German I can find. I really want to make this work so the more information I can read and understand will help me. Also fellow FMers please feel free to comment on my set up and offer advice. There is a saying "more hands makes light work"

Thank you in advance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A DLP/D will also drop between the defenders as well and it'll keep your actual centre backs closer together instead of the insane split that the HB role makes them do. If he's got the right PPM's, he'd also control the game from deep. Something to consider.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A DLP/D will also drop between the defenders as well and it'll keep your actual centre backs closer together instead of the insane split that the HB role makes them do. If he's got the right PPM's, he'd also control the game from deep. Something to consider.

Thanks for that mate. I never knew that the DLP Defend also dropped between the Centre Backs. Julian Weigl is perfect for this role in my opinion. My only concern with playing DLP Defend at the DMC position is that I wanted to play DLP Support in Central Midfield to act like a two way player very similar to how Alcantra and Ilkey Gundogan plays at the moment. Gundogan seems to be the player who moves the ball around from a higher position. I think created tactic about this type of player when he used a Half Back as the holding player and DLP Support in central midfield as a two way player. Also with Wing Backs would not using a half back a better option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for that mate. I never knew that the DLP Defend also dropped between the Centre Backs. Julian Weigl is perfect for this role in my opinion. My only concern with playing DLP Defend at the DMC position is that I wanted to play DLP Support in Central Midfield to act like a two way player very similar to how Alcantra and Ilkey Gundogan plays at the moment. Gundogan seems to be the player who moves the ball around from a higher position. I think created tactic about this type of player when he used a Half Back as the holding player and DLP Support in central midfield as a two way player. Also with Wing Backs would not using a half back a better option.

I wouldn't try and play 2 playmakers in your midfield 3, but I would also say that IMO Weigl plays as a DLP(D) dropping back from a double pivot rather than solely in the DMC position.

I have also noticed that having a DM appears to drop the d-line slightly, hence if the plan is to push it as high as possible, maybe the DM isn't the way to go. As far as I can tell, both Klopp and Tuchel tend to play with a 4231/4411 most of the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wouldn't try and play 2 playmakers in your midfield 3, but I would also say that IMO Weigl plays as a DLP(D) dropping back from a double pivot rather than solely in the DMC position.

I have also noticed that having a DM appears to drop the d-line slightly, hence if the plan is to push it as high as possible, maybe the DM isn't the way to go. As far as I can tell, both Klopp and Tuchel tend to play with a 4231/4411 most of the time.

After reading a few more threads on Thomas Tuchel he seems to set up in a 4411 which sometimes becomes a 4-1-4-1. If I am playing with a DLP Defend in midfield what would you recommend the other midfield position to be. I do not really want a BWM in there but more of role and duty who can act as a double pivot along with Weigl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
After reading a few more threads on Thomas Tuchel he seems to set up in a 4411 which sometimes becomes a 4-1-4-1. If I am playing with a DLP Defend in midfield what would you recommend the other midfield position to be. I do not really want a BWM in there but more of role and duty who can act as a double pivot along with Weigl

I actually do use a BWM(S) + added Mark Tighter PI in my 442, but if that's not to your taste, how about a CM(S).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fluid - I chose to see Fluid because I want offensive and defensive players to contribute to all phases of the game. I did not choose Very Fluid because I never really play with Very Fluid

I also play a very aggressive pressing system, and I would actually highly recommend trying a Very Fluid system.

There are two main reasons. Very Fluid systems encourages each of your players to be involved with more phases of the game i.e. defenders will have more freedom to attack, and attackers will get involved with defence. In this case that's very important as they'll lead your press. The second advantage of Very Fluid is that it seems to be the most compact of all the options meaning that as your attack presses forward, your defence will be as close as possible closing any gaps.

The other thing to consider is formation. My "go to" is a 4-3-3:

PYXPjX9.png

The reason I like 4-3-3 is that it covers the field very well and allows you to press opposition fullbacks effectively.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I also play a very aggressive pressing system, and I would actually highly recommend trying a Very Fluid system.

There are two main reasons. Very Fluid systems encourages each of your players to be involved with more phases of the game i.e. defenders will have more freedom to attack, and attackers will get involved with defence. In this case that's very important as they'll lead your press. The second advantage of Very Fluid is that it seems to be the most compact of all the options meaning that as your attack presses forward, your defence will be as close as possible closing any gaps.

The other thing to consider is formation. My "go to" is a 4-3-3:

PYXPjX9.png

The reason I like 4-3-3 is that it covers the field very well and allows you to press opposition fullbacks effectively.

I like the look of this

Could you go into a little more depth with your system?

What TIs and PIs in particular do you employ??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a very simple, classic dutch 4-3-3. As you can see it is a very strong defensive shape without the ball when pressing. We cover the pitch well, we're compact and everyone works as a unit. In possession, the front 3 drive towards goal and the wingbacks provide width with the midfield providing support and cover. Very fluid also gives you more movement and higher creativity hence the reason for the generic player roles - the entire team is creative, rather than one or two individuals.

I did an update in the Ajax thread where you can see a little more detail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is a very simple, classic dutch 4-3-3. As you can see it is a very strong defensive shape without the ball when pressing. We cover the pitch well, we're compact and everyone works as a unit. In possession, the front 3 drive towards goal and the wingbacks provide width with the midfield providing support and cover. Very fluid also gives you more movement and higher creativity hence the reason for the generic player roles - the entire team is creative, rather than one or two individuals.

I did an update in the Ajax thread where you can see a little more detail.

Thanks for dropping in on my thread mate. I appreciate your feedback and tactical knowledge. Could I ask what Team Instruction you are using to achieve heavy pressing system. Also is it really important to have your wingers position in the !attacking third to achieve a good pressing systems. I like playing with a DMC. I am thinking of using a two DMC in my. How do you feel about have a Anchor Man and Regista as my deep midfield pair. Regista will be main link from defence to attack. The other formation I like is 4-1-4-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i got a question,i try to make a heynckes tactic:

barca-bayern-3-0_zpsc80ab608.jpg

& i saw this :

[video=youtube;ynm6rP4vDG4]

all i saw on this videos is run,run,run,run.

i mean more run with ball at high speed,don't pass before you arrive at final third.

so what should i do if i want my player to play like this ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Team Instructions:

Close Down Much More

Much Higher Defensive Line

Low Crosses

Higher Tempo

Play Out of Defence

The most important piece of advice I could give, about playing with the Very Fluid structure is to at least start with Standard mentality. Very Fluid means that your entire team works together as a unit in both attack and defence. This means that playing a more attacking mentality means your defenders will primarily attack. Needless to say that's rather risky! The other point to consider is that Very Fluid gives more movement and creative freedom across the team, so attacking mentalities become particularly aggressive.

On wingers - it's not essential but it helps. The closer a player is to the opposition player he is pressing, the more effective he'll be.

On the holding midfielders - personally I prefer players in the midfield strata vs DM or AM strata. The reason being I prefer the balance of defence and attack. 3 midfielders (one holder, two pressing) gives you a solid band of 3 in front of your defence, a solid presence in the middle and two runners and one deep passing option for your attack.

When thinking about player roles, always look 'under the hood' at exactly what the role does. Many of the roles are interpreted differently. For example, personally I avoid Complete Wingbacks and Box-to-Box midfielders as they both have 'Roam from Position' checked whereas I want my Wingbacks staying wide and attacking the flanks and I want my midfielders in thick of the action in midfield rather than roaming. Personally, I don't think the name is clear vs what they actually do.

In FM15 I did actually have a lot of success playing a Regista behind an MC(D) and a MC(A) but I have not had the right player to do that with yet this year. It pressed beautifully and was a fluid shape alternating between a 1-2 midfield triangle and a 2-1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Team Instructions:

Close Down Much More

Much Higher Defensive Line

Low Crosses

Higher Tempo

Play Out of Defence

The most important piece of advice I could give, about playing with the Very Fluid structure is to at least start with Standard mentality. Very Fluid means that your entire team works together as a unit in both attack and defence. This means that playing a more attacking mentality means your defenders will primarily attack. Needless to say that's rather risky! The other point to consider is that Very Fluid gives more movement and creative freedom across the team, so attacking mentalities become particularly aggressive.

On wingers - it's not essential but it helps. The closer a player is to the opposition player he is pressing, the more effective he'll be.

On the holding midfielders - personally I prefer players in the midfield strata vs DM or AM strata. The reason being I prefer the balance of defence and attack. 3 midfielders (one holder, two pressing) gives you a solid band of 3 in front of your defence, a solid presence in the middle and two runners and one deep passing option for your attack.

When thinking about player roles, always look 'under the hood' at exactly what the role does. Many of the roles are interpreted differently. For example, personally I avoid Complete Wingbacks and Box-to-Box midfielders as they both have 'Roam from Position' checked whereas I want my Wingbacks staying wide and attacking the flanks and I want my midfielders in thick of the action in midfield rather than roaming. Personally, I don't think the name is clear vs what they actually do.

In FM15 I did actually have a lot of success playing a Regista behind an MC(D) and a MC(A) but I have not had the right player to do that with yet this year. It pressed beautifully and was a fluid shape alternating between a 1-2 midfield triangle and a 2-1.

Do you use any PI for players in your system. I read that ensure that players are pressing and closing then the front players should have closing down set to much more and mark tighter. I just wanted to get your thoughts on this idea. Would you advice using Control instead of Standard with a Very Fluid system

The reason for my question is that I want to play a Gegenpressing style which attacks the opponent quickly. I am not really intrested in having Possession just for the sake of it. What I am intrested in creating is a system or tactic that makes the possession count. I have about Thomas Tuchel and his Dortmund team. They seem to play Gegenpressing but in a more controlled manner. His team is not has full speed has Klopp Dortmund team but they still press and attack quickly that is what I am trying to create with Arsenal but I do not know how to achieve this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Do you use any PI for players in your system. I read that ensure that players are pressing and closing then the front players should have closing down set to much more and mark tighter. I just wanted to get your thoughts on this idea. Would you advice using Control instead of Standard with a Very Fluid system

The reason for my question is that I want to play a Gegenpressing style which attacks the opponent quickly. I am not really intrested in having Possession just for the sake of it. What I am intrested in creating is a system or tactic that makes the possession count. I have about Thomas Tuchel and his Dortmund team. They seem to play Gegenpressing but in a more controlled manner. His team is not has full speed has Klopp Dortmund team but they still press and attack quickly that is what I am trying to create with Arsenal but I do not know how to achieve this.

You can set individual player instructions to close down more, for sure. I used to do it on FM2015 but got out of the habit and haven't noticed a difference. After mentality, structure and team instructions I should imagine player instructions are a fairly minor effect. Check this out from last year - aggressive pressing 4-3-3 w/ Ajax and Holland. See post #20

I use player instructions for my wide midfielders set to Central Midfield Support at MCR & MCL. I tend to use more more aggressive runner, told to get forward more, run with the ball, play direct passes. Pogba, Ramsey, Klaassen are good examples. And one player to sit alongside the holder and play tidy passes so Stay in Position, Shorter Passes. The most effective player I used in this role was a fully developed Samper at Barca, other examples could be Donny van de Beek if you train him correctly. Think of an Xavi type player.

I find that the more aggressive runner really helps stop possession for possession sake. They'll drive into the box, make aggressive runs, attempt to create scoring opportunities whilst the other calms things down, switches play and gives you balance.

Play to your players strengths, both attributes and preferred player roles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is a very simple, classic dutch 4-3-3. As you can see it is a very strong defensive shape without the ball when pressing. We cover the pitch well, we're compact and everyone works as a unit. In possession, the front 3 drive towards goal and the wingbacks provide width with the midfield providing support and cover. Very fluid also gives you more movement and higher creativity hence the reason for the generic player roles - the entire team is creative, rather than one or two individuals.

I did an update in the Ajax thread where you can see a little more detail.

Ozil thanks for Ajax thread. I see that you changed your MC D to DLP D is there a reason you changed. I am considering buying Julian Weigl or Joshua Kimmich for this role I think they both fit the bill well. Ramsey could player the CM S role as the runner and Cazorla could play the other position. What do you think about that set up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Ozil would you recommend using retain possession, shorter passing and pass into space when use employing a high pressing game. My aim is to win the ball back quickly and attack the defences my create goal scoring opportunities. I think I will be using a Attacking Mentality. Also what is your thoughts on work ball into box with this set up of a high pressing game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is my team instruction for gegenpressing.

Attacking Mentality so our attackers will be further forward to press their defence.

Fluid team shape so our team will press as a whole.

Defence slightly higher to press higher up. Use offside trap to prevent long balls over our defence.

Higher tempo so when we get back the ball, we can break quickly.

Closing down More, and prevent short GK distribution.

Play out of defense to not waste possession.

Shorter passing and retain possession.

Pass into space for my playmakers to try killer ball for my CF to latch on.

I also add on run at defense.

For my PI,

SK support - Distribute to CB, Take short kicks

CB X/C - Close down less so as to prevent opponent to have a fast counter attack against us

FB support - Tackle harder, mark tighter

CWB attack - Tackle harder, mark tighter

Anchorman - Tackle harder

BBM - Tackle harder, mark tighter

AP attack - Tackle harder, mark tighter, get further forward

IF attack - Tackle harder, mark tighter, roam from position

IF support - Tackle harder, mark tighter, roam from position, get further forward

CF attack - Tackle harder, mark tighter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ozil thanks for Ajax thread. I see that you changed your MC D to DLP D is there a reason you changed. I am considering buying Julian Weigl or Joshua Kimmich for this role I think they both fit the bill well. Ramsey could player the CM S role as the runner and Cazorla could play the other position. What do you think about that set up.

You're welcome. The MC(D) > DLP(D) switch was firstly because I noticed the MC(D) had space and effective passing options so I wanted him to see more of the ball, secondly that Bazoer has developed into a very high quality player. Probably my best midfielder, possibly my best player.

Hi Ozil would you recommend using retain possession, shorter passing and pass into space when use employing a high pressing game. My aim is to win the ball back quickly and attack the defences my create goal scoring opportunities. I think I will be using a Attacking Mentality. Also what is your thoughts on work ball into box with this set up of a high pressing game

In my opinion, your closing down settings have very little influence on your passing settings. You could close down aggressively and then control the ball, a la Guardiola. Alternatively you could close down aggressively and play directly, a la Bielsa.

Personally I go standard passing, meaning players will take the best option available regardless of whether it's short or direct. The player instructions I mentioned above mean that one midfielder is more direct, whilst the other helps control possession and I like that balance. Occasionally I go more direct, if we're not creating enough chances.

If you're using attacking mentality, I would advise against using a very fluid structure. Very fluid means your team works as a unit. Very Fluid + Standard means your team attacks and defends as a unit. Very fluid + attack means everyone focuses on attack. I'm not saying it couldn't possibly work but it seriously lacks balance. When playing Attack mentality, personally I use Balanced structure.

Finally, bear in mind that Attack mentality comes with more direct passing, higher tempo etc so your team instructions will bring you back towards standard. If you want to play a real possession game, common advice is to play a lower mentality but please note that I do not personally play this way.

It may be important to point out - the tactics I use above simply organize the players effectively (covers the field, defensive shape, passing options) and gives them a lot of freedom (very fluid = high creativity, movement) to make decisions and play to the best of their ability but in a balanced way (standard mentality, mixed passing, balanced player roles). It gets great results with good, intelligent technical players but I could certainly have more control over exactly how we attack with a more structured system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You're welcome. The MC(D) > DLP(D) switch was firstly because I noticed the MC(D) had space and effective passing options so I wanted him to see more of the ball, secondly that Bazoer has developed into a very high quality player. Probably my best midfielder, possibly my best player.

In my opinion, your closing down settings have very little influence on your passing settings. You could close down aggressively and then control the ball, a la Guardiola. Alternatively you could close down aggressively and play directly, a la Bielsa.

Personally I go standard passing, meaning players will take the best option available regardless of whether it's short or direct. The player instructions I mentioned above mean that one midfielder is more direct, whilst the other helps control possession and I like that balance. Occasionally I go more direct, if we're not creating enough chances.

If you're using attacking mentality, I would advise against using a very fluid structure. Very fluid means your team works as a unit. Very Fluid + Standard means your team attacks and defends as a unit. Very fluid + attack means everyone focuses on attack. I'm not saying it couldn't possibly work but it seriously lacks balance. When playing Attack mentality, personally I use Balanced structure.

Finally, bear in mind that Attack mentality comes with more direct passing, higher tempo etc so your team instructions will bring you back towards standard. If you want to play a real possession game, common advice is to play a lower mentality but please note that I do not personally play this way.

It may be important to point out - the tactics I use above simply organize the players effectively (covers the field, defensive shape, passing options) and gives them a lot of freedom (very fluid = high creativity, movement) to make decisions and play to the best of their ability but in a balanced way (standard mentality, mixed passing, balanced player roles). It gets great results with good, intelligent technical players but I could certainly have more control over exactly how we attack with a more structured system.

i need some opinion.

i try to make a heynckes tactic:

1044908d1461263240-heynckes-4411-20160422021546_1.jpg

1044909d1461263257-heynckes-4411-20160422021555_1.jpg

So far Defendsive version more stable.But when i change the mentality to attack,my defend is very leaking.& i still unhappy with the pressing too.

1st want to ask,is there any different when i push up my WB like this :

1038976d1459486010t-tactics-differant-forums-%7Baround-world%7D-181916yfjumjal8fosa55o.jpg

what different can be make,if i pushup my player more tight to AI player ?

& do i need an "unshape" tactic ?

I mean any different when AI play flat 442,i push my BWM-De (DM) to BWM-De (CM) ?

when AI play 4411,maybe chance back to BWM-De (DM) ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i need some opinion.

i try to make a heynckes tactic:

1044908d1461263240-heynckes-4411-20160422021546_1.jpg

1044909d1461263257-heynckes-4411-20160422021555_1.jpg

So far Defendsive version more stable.But when i change the mentality to attack,my defend is very leaking.& i still unhappy with the pressing too.

1st want to ask,is there any different when i push up my WB like this :

1038976d1459486010t-tactics-differant-forums-%7Baround-world%7D-181916yfjumjal8fosa55o.jpg

what different can be make,if i pushup my player more tight to AI player ?

& do i need an "unshape" tactic ?

I mean any different when AI play flat 442,i push my BWM-De (DM) to BWM-De (CM) ?

when AI play 4411,maybe chance back to BWM-De (DM) ?

OK - so the most important point to understand about formation is that your formation sets your defensive shape.

Pushing your DR/DL to WBR/L means they'll defend higher up and start higher up during transitions. Depending on player roles, they'll behave similarly in attack. In general, wingbacks are a more balanced option if you are playing a back 3, but that's not to say it's impossible.

The problem I can see with that shape is the gaps between your centrebacks and wingbacks, and again between your midfield and striker you cause problems with pressing.

Playing a Heynckes system, personally I would go for a 4-5-1 for defensive shape and attacking options. This is actually one of my favourite threads of all time and may answer a lot of your questions - 4-5-1 the Swiss Army Knife of Formations (FM15) and a repeat for FM16.

When playing a pressing system, I find that bands of players are generally a good thing. For example, a midfield setup ML - MCL - MC - MCR - MR is particularly formidable. If you notice the MR and ML not hitting the wingbacks effectively then push them up into an AMR/AML position.

Always consider what happens when opposition player X has the ball? Who will close him down? How far do they need to run to get there and will they leave a gap? Who will mark his passing options? You'll use your formation to answer those questions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Passing lane-oriented pressing is not really represented, and Klopp's particular style of evolved U8 defending in the defensive transition is nowhere to be seen.

What is U8 defending?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heynckes' Bayern at their best pressed in a broad 4-4-2, IIRC. So in FM terms that would be like an asymmetric 4-4-1-1. Also worth noting during that amazing Barca performance the pressing was relatively light. They were hassling Barca on the ball of course, just not overly so. It was more about touch tightness to the midfield players and pressure on the wings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What is U8 defending?

Little kid defending like you would see in a match between 7 year-olds. Klopp pressing involves multiple players closing down with other teammates converging around them to compress the team's shape around the attacker, often leaving supporting opposition players unmarked in the process. Since poor or lazy execution can see your entire midfield bypassed, it's relatively high risk compared to a style of pressing where, for example, one player closes down and everyone else focuses on marking the supporting attackers or carefully cutting off every passing lane, but the benefit is that the overall pressure is more effective (that is, the attacker with the ball has to quickly play it since there's no space to play out of trouble). But again, you can't really replicate this in FM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Little kid defending like you would see in a match between 7 year-olds. Klopp pressing involves multiple players closing down with other teammates converging around them to compress the team's shape around the attacker, often leaving supporting opposition players unmarked in the process. Since poor or lazy execution can see your entire midfield bypassed, it's relatively high risk compared to a style of pressing where, for example, one player closes down and everyone else focuses on marking the supporting attackers or carefully cutting off every passing lane, but the benefit is that the overall pressure is more effective (that is, the attacker with the ball has to quickly play it since there's no space to play out of trouble). But again, you can't really replicate this in FM.

So is there no way to play Gegenpressng in FM or the pressing that you describe in your post. That is why I find FM unfair because you might have want to play but the game does not allow it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So is there no way to play Gegenpressng in FM or the pressing that you describe in your post. That is why I find FM unfair because you might have want to play but the game does not allow it.

Not really no. You can have a high pressing game but you can't replicate Gegenpressing not even close.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not really no. You can have a high pressing game but you can't replicate Gegenpressing not even close.

Cleon to get a high pressing game I use the following settings

Control + Very Fluid

Higher Tempo

Close Down More TI

Slightly Higher D-Line

Use Offside Trap

The strikers wide midfielders AM's and central midfielders all of their closing down set to max.

Also, to ensure that my attacking minded players immediately pressure the opposition once they lose possession, wide midfielders, AM’s and strikers need are set to “mark tightly”.

I tend to watch the games and if my CD's are getting pulled out of position I will set their closing down to less.

I do use other TI such as Work Ball into Box if I see that we have low possession and are taking to much long shots. After I win the ball back I want my team to slice right through the other team but if they are just giving the ball back then I will use work ball into box. But I can only get an idea of wharves going on if I watch the first 15 mins in full.

I use Pass Into Space because if my team wins the ball back in a good position they might be space for them to attack because the other team might have pushed men forward.

I am trying not over complicate things but this is my set up. Coukd you give your thoughts on feedback good or bad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cleon to get a high pressing game I use the following settings

Control + Very Fluid

Higher Tempo

Close Down More TI

Slightly Higher D-Line

Use Offside Trap

The strikers wide midfielders AM's and central midfielders all of their closing down set to max.

Also, to ensure that my attacking minded players immediately pressure the opposition once they lose possession, wide midfielders, AM’s and strikers need are set to “mark tightly”.

I tend to watch the games and if my CD's are getting pulled out of position I will set their closing down to less.

I do use other TI such as Work Ball into Box if I see that we have low possession and are taking to much long shots. After I win the ball back I want my team to slice right through the other team but if they are just giving the ball back then I will use work ball into box. But I can only get an idea of wharves going on if I watch the first 15 mins in full.

I use Pass Into Space because if my team wins the ball back in a good position they might be space for them to attack because the other team might have pushed men forward.

I am trying not over complicate things but this is my set up. Coukd you give your thoughts on feedback good or bad

So basically you're doing what Der FM suggests in his blog I posted the link to in post #35?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So basically you're doing what Der FM suggests in his blog I posted the link to in post #35?

Yeah I have learnt a lot from DER FM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah I have learnt a lot from DER FM

Ditto - this is what I'm currently using...

bAWgysd.png?1

FqBVJPV.png?1

Like you, I have my front 6 with Mark Tighter PI (except the DLP).

Going OK so far...

bfzl2UC.png?1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The set up is also doing well for me. I have a Advance Forward - Attack instead of a CF Attack and Inside Forward Support and Winger Attack. I also use a AM attack in the AMC.position. I only give mark tightly to my front 4 players. I do not give mark tightly to my central midfielders

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The set up is also doing well for me. I have a Advance Forward - Attack instead of a CF Attack and Inside Forward Support and Winger Attack. I also use a AM attack in the AMC.position. I only give mark tightly to my front 4 players. I do not give mark tightly to my central midfielders

What I posted is my starting position, but I'll occasionally mix up the duties of the front 4 (rarely their roles though), depending on how things are going and who's playing during the game.

I've found that having Mark Tighter on the CM seems to keep him more central.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What I posted is my starting position, but I'll occasionally mix up the duties of the front 4 (rarely their roles though), depending on how things are going and who's playing during the game.

I've found that having Mark Tighter on the CM seems to keep him more central.

So you only give mark tightly to the CM S not the DLP D I just got confused because you said your front 6 players have mark tightly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So you only give mark tightly to the CM S not the DLP D I just got confused because you said your front 6 players have mark tightly

indeed, not the DLP... it's just about how it's expressed - I could have easily have said "the front 4 plus the CM", but that may have confused too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

as someone already have pointed out, i would say that the most important thing to think about in order to accomplice this to have the right type of players. I would look for fullbacks, wingers, wide midfielders, central mids and attackers with the following attributes close to 15 and above:

Acceleration, tackling, work rate and teamwork. Those should be the attributes in your club DNA. I noticed that you like to use the shout - pass in to space - therefore i would also look for attackers who has preferred moves including - try and beat the offside trap -

best of luck!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I've been using a setup as FC St.Pauli that has worked pretty well.

Formation:-

SK(S)

WBR(S)

CD(D) x2

WBL(A)

CM(S)

CM(A)

CM(D)

AMR-W(A)

AML-IF(S)

P(A) - not playing central, instead up against the opposing CB with weakest attributes compared to my striker.

Wing Backs play in the Full Back positions. If the striker is up against the opposing DC(L), I change over the sides of the W(A) and IF(S), also the same for the Wing Backs.

 

Mentality - Standard

Shape - Fluid

Higher Tempo

Slightly Higher Defensive Line

Prevent Short Gk Distribution

Play Slightly Wider 

Use Offside Trap

Play Out Of Defense

Mixed Passing

Close Down Sometimes

 

PI's - As per the player role PI's

SK - Distributes to CB's, Short Kicks

WBL/WBR - Sit Narrow, Close Down Sometimes

DC - Shorter Passing, Close Down Less -Unless against a striker dropping deep, then change one to Closing Down Sometimes. If against two opposition strikers then I use one CD on Tight Mark against the most advanced striker, and Close Down against the striker dropping deep, and used with Close Down Sometimes for that CB.

CM(S) -Close Down Sometimes

CM(A) - Close Down More, Get Further Forward, More Direct Passing

CM(D) - Close Down Less, Pass Shorter

W(A) - Close Down Often, Dribble More, Get Further Forward, Cross From Byline

IF(S) - Close Down Often

P(A) - Close Down Often

Edited by DaggerPaul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it possible to use a Gegenpressing system with the instructions as Structured & Counter?

Curious as I like my teams to be compact and hit on the break but the thought of the Gegenpress is very appealing.

What other instructions or shouts would you need to accompany the Structured & Counter mentality?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...