Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
Sign in to follow this  
thejay

Can the tactic masters please explain this to me?

Recommended Posts

U basically just throw your players upfront. Ofc both IFs would be more attack-minded since even with support duty, winger position receive more mentality distributed to them compared to their central counterpart except at highly structured. Your problems are crystal clear tbh.

Also what i meant with "try something new" isnt about formation at all. U can keep using 4-1-2-3 DM Wide. just, change the way u see how possession works in this game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They seem very keen to get forward. Why haven't you tried a lower mentality?

I tried lowering mentality, but then my high press suffers because the line is deeper.

Besides its not really only about going forward, in the construction phase of build up in midfield, they actually do not run forward enough, this happens especially when the false nine has the ball, he receives the ball deeper in midfield and the ifs stay level with the central midfielders and to not run forward into the space between fullback and center back.

Then when I have possession in the opposition half , they get sucked in and stay near the opposition box like in the recent screenshots I posted. This is the key issue why basically only the fullback is free to receive the ball.

I know this for a long time and haven't found a way to improve it. I though it is related to the problems with wide play which were not addressed in the last patch so I did not mention this in my first post.

In my first post, there was actually a rare moment where their movement was correct and the midfielder still choose the fullback option, this was especially annoying and that's why I posted it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
U basically just throw your players upfront. Ofc both IFs would be more attack-minded since even with support duty, winger position receive more mentality distributed to them compared to their central counterpart except at highly structured. Your problems are crystal clear tbh.

Also what i meant with "try something new" isnt about formation at all. U can keep using 4-1-2-3 DM Wide. just, change the way u see how possession works in this game

If its so crystal clear, what should I change then?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lowering your mentality, use PI for closing down instructions rather than pumping up all player's closing down from TI, go try other Team shapes. I believe u're hesitant to change team shape below flexible. Also, use playmaker(s) at the right place. N are u sure your players are compatible with those Instructions? They dont need to have great attributes or high stars rating. just having required attributes "enough" is fine. Assessing your team is one the most important part of this game. I took like hours at day 1 when managing a new club just for assessing my whole squad. Have u?

there are ways to compensate for your "high press". it doesnt need to be control or higher.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Now, my team is instructed to play short passing possession style football, not that this really matters in this instant

Here we have picture one:

zQmXe5i.jpg

I haven't read every word of every response, but I read a few then skimmed.

From what I can see based purely on the picture provided:

1/ The 2 most advanced players are pretty well covered. Top of the screen is being well marked, bottom has managed to get the inside track, but has 2 defenders in his immediate vicinity. Neither of these players look like good options.

2/ We have a player standing statically in an advanced position ahead of Samper and to his left. Samper is headed more the other way and the angle has been closed off by the defender approaching Samper. Clearly not an likely option.

3/ The F9. This player has dropped off to find a bit of space, though the defender is making moves to close him down. The F9 is clearly a better option than what I've listed above, but his back is to the goal and he is being closed down, so what next?

4/ The full back, the pass Samper executes. Well, the full back is coming in on the blindside in acres of space, with no defender appearing to be paying any attention. Couple that with Samper's PPM, and I think it's pretty obvious why this was the choice. I mean, why would he not attempt that pass?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it was actually a classic matter. Few editions back then there was someone who became frustated because his fullbacks were always be the ones who made the most passes instead of his central midfield pairing. They just gave both wingers with IF role, using control n very fluid n much higher defensive line+much more closing down, Play narrower n exploit the middle, thiniking that's how Barca under Guardiola plays. I myself was like that once. I could tell why it doesnt work because of that. While there is nothing wrong to try to replicate a system to some extent, I believe that trying to think differently to get the same result is a good thing to do. Like WWfan few years ago who stated his interpretation of Barcelona, with a counter mentality setting. Not perfect, but open up many ppl's mind

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lowering your mentality, use PI for closing down instructions rather than pumping up all player's closing down from TI, go try other Team shapes. I believe u're hesitant to change team shape below flexible. Also, use playmaker(s) at the right place. N are u sure your players are compatible with those Instructions? They dont need to have great attributes or high stars rating. just having required attributes "enough" is fine. Assessing your team is one the most important part of this game. I took like hours at day 1 when managing a new club just for assessing my whole squad. Have u?

there are ways to compensate for your "high press". it doesn't need to be control or higher.

Lower mentality does not really change their behavior significantly , like I mentioned in another post, in one phase they dont go forward enough, in the other they stick close to the penalty box.

I do know about squad building and what kind of players are required, besides, I tried the same with Barcelona, the issues are the same.

it was actually a classic matter. Few editions back then there was someone who became frustated because his fullbacks were always be the ones who made the most passes instead of his central midfield pairing. They just gave both wingers with IF role, using control n very fluid n much higher defensive line+much more closing down, Play narrower n exploit the middle, thiniking that's how Barca under Guardiola plays. I myself was like that once. I could tell why it doesnt work because of that. While there is nothing wrong to try to replicate a system to some extent, I believe that trying to think differently to get the same result is a good thing to do. Like WWfan few years ago who stated his interpretation of Barcelona, with a counter mentality setting. Not perfect, but open up many ppl's mind

Tis are retain possession, play out of defense , high closing down , highest line, control mentality , play offside, shorter passing , play wider, normal or low tempo and roaming, so no fluid or narrow.

Formation is 41221

Besides If you dont know how to make the ifs behave better, then do not suggest you do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I haven't read every word of every response, but I read a few then skimmed.

From what I can see based purely on the picture provided:

1/ The 2 most advanced players are pretty well covered. Top of the screen is being well marked, bottom has managed to get the inside track, but has 2 defenders in his immediate vicinity. Neither of these players look like good options.

2/ We have a player standing statically in an advanced position ahead of Samper and to his left. Samper is headed more the other way and the angle has been closed off by the defender approaching Samper. Clearly not an likely option.

3/ The F9. This player has dropped off to find a bit of space, though the defender is making moves to close him down. The F9 is clearly a better option than what I've listed above, but his back is to the goal and he is being closed down, so what next?

4/ The full back, the pass Samper executes. Well, the full back is coming in on the blindside in acres of space, with no defender appearing to be paying any attention. Couple that with Samper's PPM, and I think it's pretty obvious why this was the choice. I mean, why would he not attempt that pass?

If you really think this is the right pass, then I dont know what to say

The two players closest to goal are the two inside forwards, moving correctly, there are two obvious passes , the through ball to the left if or the simple ball to the false 9 who is retreating and drawing the cb out, opening even more space for the if.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you really think this is the right pass, then I dont know what to say

The two players closest to goal are the two inside forwards, moving correctly, there are two obvious passes , the through ball to the left if or the simple ball to the false 9 who is retreating and drawing the cb out, opening even more space for the if.

The full back is the least covered player and moving into an attacking position. I understand you're just desperate for people to tell you you're right, but that's not really the case.

On top of that, the game is meant to represent real life, players aren't robots. Sometimes, even top class players make the wrong decision, you could quite easily just write it off to that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The full back is the least covered player and moving into an attacking position. I understand you're just desperate for people to tell you you're right, but that's not really the case.

On top of that, the game is meant to represent real life, players aren't robots. Sometimes, even top class players make the wrong decision, you could quite easily just write it off to that.

Least covered player? you serious? I am not desperate of anything, this is just an example of a general tendency I have observed with this game for some time.

The movement of inside forwards and the decision making of midfielders where to pass to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No matter what we say if u dont want to try with patience then I suggest dont ask for solutions. Rather than asking for solutions it's more like u wanna tell ppl how frustating your team is. There is a simple solution for your very problem without changing the formation. It lies within the 4-4-2 i posted before but u only paid attention to the formation n now u're just being disrespectful here. Dont just blaming those IFs, or me. think about it in other perspectives. The screenshots from me before should be enough for u to figuring it out. with a coold head :brock:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No matter what we say if u dont want to try with patience then I suggest dont ask for solutions. Rather than asking for solutions it's more like u wanna tell ppl how frustating your team is. There is a simple solution for your very problem without changing the formation. It lies within the 4-4-2 i posted before but u only paid attention to the formation n now u're just being disrespectful here. Dont just blaming those IFs, or me. think about it in other perspectives. The screenshots from me before should be enough for u to figuring it out. with a coold head :brock:

I am willing to try every solution, lowering mentally hasn't really helped except generate more counter attacks and make pressing less effective.

You said without changing the formation , what did you do then to have the result your screenshots suggest?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the exact same issue.

“The principle idea of Positional Play is that players pass the ball to each other in close spaces to be able to pass to a wide open man.” – Juan Manuel Lillo

The problem with the game is there's never enough passes in those close spaces to open the wide man, they just kick it to them regardless of if they're open or not. I've moaned about this problem since the first time I tried FM 16 and since the last update did nothing to fix it, I've very most likely given up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Attacking possession football can be achieved, early on in FM16 I was able to get in excess of 800 completed passes in matches while managing top tier sides. The key is to use your own formation & shape to create space along with heavy attention to team & player instructions.

I will accept that it can be difficult to achieve in FM & to do without harming your attacking threat but then again it's also very difficult to achieve irl otherwise every successful club would be registering 65% possession & 700+ passes per match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW, We still haven't seen your tactic in it's entirety.

What are the roles and duties of the other midfielders in your system? We know you have a DLP in Samper, but do the other two midfielders have the right roles in combination to create space for your IFs?

Also, I have a 4-3-3 Wide shape going on my save with a Standard mentality (which I often bring to Defensive in late stages) and enjoy a high-pressing system. I know that Cleon isn't much a fan of using Opposition Instructions, but I've found them very useful to helping create successful pressing traps. So I'd like to ask if you've looked down that avenue at all?

Further on the pressing idea, I believe the key to a good pressing team is a Team Shape that encourages full teamwork and for me the only option therefore is a Fluid/Very Fluid team shape as (if I'm correct, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm not) encourages a more compact shape. It also encourages more fluid movement, which might be the key to getting those pesky IFs contributing better.

Another note on pressing, you're set to a high mentality which automatically makes your team Play Wider, so why have you got the Play Wider TI selected? You're telling the team to close down a lot but play with a shape that has large gaps between players (perhaps another issue for your DLP). In my experience with pressing, if you have large gaps between players and you lose the ball, it will be more difficult to regain possession quickly as there is more space for the opposition to exploit.

Just my two cents, good luck in your efforts :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think is a problem with playing possession style with inside forwards, I totally do not want to play 442, I want to play a formation with as many lines possible and have numerical advantage in the center.

It's possible with the very formation you played. If only someone wrote a big guide on possession football with a 41221 that can show you how to get the team working as a unit and give you ideas to try in your own save to get the AML/AMR more involved and make better movement....

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/445500-The-Art-of-Possession-Football

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's possible with the very formation you played. If only someone wrote a big guide on possession football with a 41221 that can show you how to get the team working as a unit and give you ideas to try in your own save to get the AML/AMR more involved and make better movement....

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/445500-The-Art-of-Possession-Football

I have read this guide and my setup takes this into account, I would have never used roaming from position before reading this guide.

The Problem like you said, that I have is the the if players get suck in too narrow or push forward too much.

This is the setup I use

cC6VUVE.jpg?1

The central midfield most of the time works like I want them to , its only the attack that is the problem.

I also have no problems keeping possession regularly over 60%

I started to use very wide because it makes the ifs behave a bit better, also tried individual instructions like stay wider or roaming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your using prevent shorter GK distribution which will only make the IF's even narrower when they press to win the ball back. This mean they will start more centrally than wide due to the positions they take up without the ball. Remove this TI and they'll offer better width before moving inwards.

Possession might be an issue because centrally you have two playmakers and the only people they have to create for is two IF's and a deep forward. Using two playmakers here is a bit overkill when you have a DMC behind them because none of them are attack minded. You have no central threat, so centrally it's conservative. This also explains an awful lot why the ball is played wide more often than not because you have no-one making runs from deep centrally and looking to penetrate the oppositions back line. It's far too easy for the opposition to defend against and is the reason why the central 2 hold onto the ball longer because the IF's can't really get into free space as they always have a central defender to help cover the fullback.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the problem with your tactic is that you've gonne to conservative in your team instructions.

I don't see any issues with your players roles, although i think your midfield combo, AP(s)+DLP(s) could be a little static.

But, when we see the team instructions, you have:

- Retain Possession

- Shorter Passing

- Play out from defense

- lower Tempo

All these instructions will make your team play slower and less risky football. I imagine, if you are playing with control mentality that you have a strong team, but with all those instructions you are palying very conservative football, making easy for the opponent to sit back and wait for your players.

I'm no expert, just giving some advice that Cleon and others already gave me! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Your using prevent shorter GK distribution which will only make the IF's even narrower when they press to win the ball back. This mean they will start more centrally than wide due to the positions they take up without the ball. Remove this TI and they'll offer better width before moving inwards.

Possession might be an issue because centrally you have two playmakers and the only people they have to create for is two IF's and a deep forward. Using two playmakers here is a bit overkill when you have a DMC behind them because none of them are attack minded. You have no central threat, so centrally it's conservative. This also explains an awful lot why the ball is played wide more often than not because you have no-one making runs from deep centrally and looking to penetrate the oppositions back line. It's far too easy for the opposition to defend against and is the reason why the central 2 hold onto the ball longer because the IF's can't really get into free space as they always have a central defender to help cover the fullback.

I will try the gk distribution issue , I have not though about that.

I do want to prevent the opposition gk from playing it out easily though, is this not possible then?

Normally I have the advanced playmaker on attack duty, which makes him run into the box, but it makes him almost play like a 10, not like a central midfielder. The false 9 should occupy the space of the 10 so I found the false nine to be more playing like it should with a less attacking midfield.

I also tried different combinations though.

What would be a better combination? I do like how the dlp plays and helps me keep possession though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I will try the gk distribution issue , I have not though about that.

I do want to prevent the opposition gk from playing it out easily though, is this not possible then?

Well the thing is you can't find a tactic that allows everything you want, along the way you'll have to make some kind of sacrifices to certain ideas you have for an overall better system. In your case it comes down to do you want the players to be pressing high up the pitch closing the keeper down and his options which forces them inside at times? If yes then you have to accept that them being narrow at times is part of what you're instructing them to do. If it's no then you need to look at changing it without losing the intent behind your overall philosophy. Do I believe dropping this TI will have a massive difference in how you play? Not at all, I think it'll be negligible at best.

Normally I have the advanced playmaker on attack duty, which makes him run into the box, but it makes him almost play like a 10, not like a central midfielder.

It really doesn't consistently though because he's a playmaker above all else. He's not a direct goal threat neither is he someone looking to get beyond your F9 constantly. Which doesn't matter really but it matters if you want a more varied attack and a threat from the centre. The current system you use with the roles and duties rely on width and wingplay but this is something you wanted to avoid was it not? In this case, why haven't you tried the wide players as the playmakers making them feed the ball to the central players instead? Then you cut out all the crossing game you want to avoid.

Its just your current setup doesn't match the style you're trying to create. I understand this can be difficult to get right. But if you think about the tactic as a whole more then you can achieve what you want using your current shape. You just need to alter the roles and duties of a few players and it'll give you better results. In your opening post you mentioned it likes the game is forcing you to play wing play which you don;t want. It's really not but your current roles and goal threats are all from wide players and the tactic is set up for wing play.

What would be a better combination? I do like how the dlp plays and helps me keep possession though.

Any combination is good really it just depends on the overall goal that you are aiming for. If you want a more varied style that isn't about wing play then I'd look at using a role alongside the DLP that can offer you the variety and will be more of a direct goal threat. Also have you considered using the DLP at DMC so he can influence the game better and help recycle possession? Its something to consider because currently your central midfield is conservative and I don't think a Half Back really suits what you want, as the midfield isn't that adventurous to begin with.

But it really comes down to what you want as there are many different ways to tackle the issues you have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well the thing is you can't find a tactic that allows everything you want, along the way you'll have to make some kind of sacrifices to certain ideas you have for an overall better system. In your case it comes down to do you want the players to be pressing high up the pitch and coming inside? If yes then you have to accept that them being narrow at times is part of what you're instructing them to do. If it's no then you need to look at changing it without losing the intent behind your overall philosophy. Do I believe dropping this TI will have a massive difference in how you play? Not at all, I think it'll be negligible at best.

.

How does if coming inside correlate with ifs moving to centrally when having possession in the opposition half ? Its not like they are wrong positioned after a quick ball recovery, rather during patient build up where they are wide, they move centrally to much when the ball is is at a certain level in the opposition half.

It really doesn't consistently though because he's a playmaker above all else. He's not a direct goal threat neither is he someone looking to get beyond your F9 constantly. Which doesn't matter really but it matters if you want a more varied attack and a threat from the centre. The current system you use with the roles and duties rely on width and wingplay but this is something you wanted to avoid was it not? In this case, why haven't you tried the wide players as the playmakers making them feed the ball to the central players instead? Then you cut out all the crossing game you want to avoid.

.

I do not want to avoid width and wing play, not at all , rather I want the ifs to stay wide and move inside at the right moment or make diagonals at the right moment, and I want my central midfielders or false 9 to spot those runs and pass the ball to them.

What I don't want is the central midfielder passing the ball to the fullback constantly because the ifs are sucked in to narrow or are on coming into positions where they can be passed to, I don't want constant fullback to fullback passes.

If I play them as wide playmakers, the play even more narrow leaving even more only the fullbacks as the free players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You said at the very start

I feel like the game forces me to play to the wings and cross it in, and if I don't want to do this and play wide forwards, the fullbacks becomes a magnetic target for the ball in order to cross it in, no matter in what situation or how promising the attack develops.

This is because you use two playmakers in the centre so the only option you ever have really (which is consistent) is support from the fullbacks time and time again. This was evident in the PKM you posted. It's why you struggle with what you want because actually, you're set up for the fullbacks to overlap and provide crosses........

Getting the IF's to move better relies on what happens elsewhere on the pitch, I.e your midfield force them to come inside and find the ball because your midfield don't connect the midfield to the IF's until the very final stages of moves. It all comes back to the roles you use in the centre and the TI's.

If I play them as wide playmakers, the play even more narrow leaving even more only the fullbacks as the free players.

No you're not, why do you say this? just because you use wide playmakers doesn't mean you are narrow at all.

Anyways I've gave you more than enough advice to help you but it seems you're unwilling to actually change how you play or consider other possibilities which will actually eliminate majority of your issues and make you more varied and dangerous in attacks. But hey, what do I know eh?!

Your current issues are your own doing and are all related to how you've set up both in terms of roles/duties used and the TI's. You have to change the roles if you want to actually see a difference and get the players doing the stuff you want them to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is because you use two playmakers in the centre so the only option you ever have really (which is consistent) is support from the fullbacks time and time again. This was evident in the PKM you posted. It's why you struggle with what you want because actually, you're set up for the fullbacks to overlap and provide crosses........

Getting the IF's to move better relies on what happens elsewhere on the pitch, I.e your midfield force them to come inside and find the ball because your midfield don't connect the midfield to the IF's until the very final stages of moves. It all comes back to the roles you use in the centre and the TI's.

Ok if that is the case then what duties should the central midfielders be assigned to? Changing one playmaker to attack or using a bbm instead did not change how the ifs move.

Anyways I've gave you more than enough advice to help you but it seems you're unwilling to actually change how you play or consider other possibilities which will actually eliminate majority of your issues and make you more varied and dangerous in attacks. But hey, what do I know eh?!

Your current issues are your own doing and are all related to how you've set up both in terms of roles/duties used and the TI's. You have to change the roles if you want to actually see a difference and get the players doing the stuff you want them to do.

I am willing to change any roles, I have tried a lot of different combinations in central midfield, it did not really change how the ifs behave.

What roles in central midfield makes the ifs not behave like they do currently ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it possible to look up what kind of instructions AI managers are using.

I went on holiday for one match an let my assistant take charge but still instructing him to use my tactics. As far as I know the assistant can freely choose instructions during a match even when this is ticked.

Wide players behaved better under him and I am curious what instructions were used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In this instance, I'm afraid tactical instructions and PPI's are irrelevant. The image clearly shows 2 possible forward passes which are much easier passes to make than switching the ball to the opposite full back. They're not risky passes at all.

With Samper's high stats in passing, decisions and composure, he would definitely play a simple ball through for the inside forward to run onto for a one on one in real life. No doubts about it.

Looking to switch the play when there are 2 great, easy options directly in front of you is the last thing a player would do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In this instance, I'm afraid tactical instructions and PPI's are irrelevant. The image clearly shows 2 possible forward passes which are much easier passes to make than switching the ball to the opposite full back. They're not risky passes at all.

With Samper's high stats in passing, decisions and composure, he would definitely play a simple ball through for the inside forward to run onto for a one on one in real life. No doubts about it.

Looking to switch the play when there are 2 great, easy options directly in front of you is the last thing a player would do.

I don't think you've read anything that was written. He specifically asked his players NOT to play through balls, so it's not going to happen. The short pass may be on, but the attacking Mentality and the PPM has him choosing another option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think you've read anything that was written. He specifically asked his players NOT to play through balls, so it's not going to happen. The short pass may be on, but the attacking Mentality and the PPM has him choosing another option.

I did not ask my players to not play through balls , Dlp plays through balls on mixed . I thought dlp is the Xavi role, is it not? Did he never play through balls?

Also the through ball is only one option , the second obvious option is the simple bass to the feet of the false nine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In this instance, I'm afraid tactical instructions and PPI's are irrelevant. The image clearly shows 2 possible forward passes which are much easier passes to make than switching the ball to the opposite full back. They're not risky passes at all.

With Samper's high stats in passing, decisions and composure, he would definitely play a simple ball through for the inside forward to run onto for a one on one in real life. No doubts about it.

Looking to switch the play when there are 2 great, easy options directly in front of you is the last thing a player would do.

It should be shouldn't it? There is no way this pass is the right one and would be made by an intelligent player in real life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I did not ask my players to not play through balls , Dlp plays through balls on mixed . I thought dlp is the Xavi role, is it not? Did he never play through balls?

Also the through ball is only one option , the second obvious option is the simple bass to the feet of the false nine.

We've been over this. Retain Possession will reduce those through balls (which is only on Mixed) to Rarely, so no, they won't look to play through balls. The passes will be to feet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It should be shouldn't it? There is no way this pass is the right one and would be made by an intelligent player in real life.

We've been over this, he has a PPM that makes him use the flank a lot..................

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If it was a different player, the pass to the false 9 may well have been chosen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Least covered player? you serious? I am not desperate of anything, this is just an example of a general tendency I have observed with this game for some time.

The movement of inside forwards and the decision making of midfielders where to pass to.

It's quite clear in the first screen shot that he is the most open, advancing player. Every other player either have defenders in their immediate proximity or are in the process of being closed down. The right full back is coming in on the blindside, apparently unnoticed. There's logic to the pass. Perhaps the through ball would be the "better" option, but you have a player who's instructed to try risky passes only sometimes and his PPM will mean he's often looking to spray it across field into wide areas. This has already been explained and could well be the most obvious answer. On top of that possibility, if you are playing a possession based tactic (which I think you are?), then players will be more likely to look for a possession maintaining pass. The pass to the full back should be a fairly simple one, I'm guessing Samper under hit it on this occasion. Feel free to hate the execution, but it happens.

Again, players aren't robots, sometimes they may choose what you deem to be the "wrong" option. It could also be this straight forward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I won't bother to take this any further than this.

It's quite clear in the first screen shot that he is the most open, advancing player. Every other player either have defenders in their immediate proximity or are in the process of being closed down. The Right full back is coming in on the blindside, apparently unnoticed. There's logic to the pass. Perhaps the through ball would be the "better" option, but you have a player who's instructed to try risky passes only sometimes and his PPM will mean he's often looking to spray it across field into wide areas. This has already been explained and could well be the most obvious answer. On top of that possibility, if you are playing a possession based tactic (which I think you are?), then players will be more likely to look for a possession maintaining pass. The pass to the full back should be a fairly simple one, I'm guessing Samper under hit it on this occasion.

Again, players aren't robots, sometimes they may choose what you deem to be the "wrong" option. It could also be this straight forward.

Please dont tell me the fullback pass is the best option and the option a player with his ability or any player would actually choose, thats just ridiculous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We've been over this, he has a PPM that makes him use the flank a lot..................

The ppm is a tendency not a rule is it not, his decision making attribute which is 17 should tell him when to act on this tendency and when not.

But regardless of the pass , you wanted to tell me which instructions of the central midfielders make the ifs behave better?

I haven't found any combination that improves them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The ppm is a tendency not a rule is it not, his decision making attribute which is 17 should tell him when to act on this tendency and when not.

But regardless of the pass , you wanted to tell me which instructions of the central midfielders make the ifs behave better?

I haven't found any combination that improves them

Things don't work like a on-off switch.

Every instruction combination can work, like every role combination can work.

It all depends how you setup your team as a whole.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Things don't work like a on-off switch.

Every instruction combination can work, like every role combination can work.

It all depends how you setup your team as a whole.

Yes, what instructions could make the ifs behave better?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing more to see here. Multiple logical reasons given, the OP isn't actually interested in hearing them.

I wish my playmakers would spray the ball wide to completely open advancing full backs instead of the narrow pass where all the defenders are. Man, I'd score a lot more goals. Something I'm actively working on :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The ppm is a tendency not a rule is it not, his decision making attribute which is 17 should tell him when to act on this tendency and when not.

But regardless of the pass , you wanted to tell me which instructions of the central midfielders make the ifs behave better?

I haven't found any combination that improves them

While a PPM is a tendency you've told the DLP via team instructions to not try throughballs often which means he will rarely attempt them. Add onto this the slow tempo and retain possession, he's using his PPM more than he normally would because you're forcing him too with the setting you use.

I've told you 4 times in the thread so far that the combination depends on your end goal for what you're creating. Anything can and does work but you have to think of a system as a whole. I've gave you lots of advice on things to try and possible solutions but so far you've not been interested in what I had to say. You need to use roles that compliment the style you want to create. So if you want players to do a specific thing then you need to build the team and the other instructions around this.

It comes down to you and what you create rather than me saying use this blah blah as that wont help you. First above all else I'd learn the basics of what you use and figure out what does/doesn't work and understand the strengths and weakness and build from that. If you don't know these simple basics then it doesn't really matter what you use it'll be a struggle unless you stumble across something by accident.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
While a PPM is a tendency you've told the DLP via team instructions to not try throughballs often which means he will rarely attempt them. Add onto this the slow tempo and retain possession, he's using his PPM more than he normally would because you're forcing him too with the setting you use.

I've told you 4 times in the thread so far that the combination depends on your end goal for what you're creating. Anything can and does work but you have to think of a system as a whole. I've gave you lots of advice on things to try and possible solutions but so far you've not been interested in what I had to say. You need to use roles that compliment the style you want to create. So if you want players to do a specific thing then you need to build the team and the other instructions around this.

It comes down to you and what you create rather than me saying use this blah blah as that wont help you. First above all else I'd learn the basics of what you use and figure out what does/doesn't work and understand the strengths and weakness and build from that. If you don't know these simple basics then it doesn't really matter what you use it'll be a struggle unless you stumble across something by accident.

I suggested multiple times what I want to create and how I want my ifs to behave, how am I not interested in what you are saying?

I tried what you suggestions , lowered mentality or removed the prevent gk instructions, tried different roles in midfield, the false nine if combination is not really working despite that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nothing more to see here. Multiple logical reasons given, the OP isn't actually interested in hearing them.

I wish my playmakers would spray the ball wide to completely open advancing full backs instead of the narrow pass where all the defenders are. Man, I'd score a lot more goals. Something I'm actively working on :)

I'm taking full advantage of my WB(a) by playing him with a AP(s) upfroant.

The space that the AP(s) leave just opens a highway for the forwards runs of my WB(a).

On top of that i set the exploit the flanks instruction. I'm seeing lot's of wide plays, and of course most of my goals come from crosses (around 40%).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You changed about 5 times the things you wanted though. You started off saying you despise the wide play and didn't want crosses yet are set up very wide and have fullbacks overlapping so they whip crosses into the box. It's hard to grasp the exact style you want and how you want to achieve this. High pressure, possession orientated tactics can be made several ways. It's down to you to determine exactly how you want this to play out. You need an actual plan or vision for the end goal, this will then give you something to work towards.

You're still not learning though how you play and how every role fits together, especially in the short amount of time you've been doing this since dialogue was opened. You're shifting from one thing to the next in the hope you magically stumble across a working combination. This is highly unlikely, you need to go back to basics and learn about the set up you use and how the thousands of TI's you use actually change the way the base and shape plays. I doubt you know or fully understand the impact these are having on your performance and tactic in general. You need to understand all of these before you can move forward or how will you know what's causing the issues and what isn't?

I watched the PKM you uploaded and saw lots wrong, surely you can watch the game back and make a list of what's wrong too? Then have a look at if the roles you've used or TI's/PI's could possibly be changing the players behavior.

I'm not being awkward on purpose but you're asking questions that only you have answers too. Even the PKM you uploaded didn't really show the issues you set out to prove nor did the things you say happen time and time again happen frequent for the reasons you said. This is why it's vital to start at the beginning again and have a clear vision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Watch some old Barca games. Xavi, and Barca in general don't play a ton of what we would consider through balls from 30 yards out. They do, however, love to utilize Dani Alves.....the right full back. Iniesta is/was more likely to attempt the through ball, but I don't think we'd ever consider him a DLP. It's the wrong role and wrong player to achieve what you want. Find yourself a AP that likes to play through balls and adjust from your possession based instructions, or at least adjust PIs to suit your needs.

There really aren't any tactical geniuses in FM. We all try a variety of different things in an attempt to achieve our goals. See the 4-5-1 thread for example. It looks like that formation may be a complete bust, but we've tried and tested a variety of different roles, TIs and PIs with limited success. I've since abandoned the formation, but I still have the same goals. What you think should work and how it actually plays out are often different, so we must adjust. PPMs are a really big deal in FM. A player will almost certainly ignore other instructions if he has his own way that he's married to. The biggest adjustment you may need to make is to find an alternative to Samper, or adjust your tactic to better suit him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You changed about 5 times the things you wanted though. You started off saying you despise the wide play and didn't want crosses yet are set up very wide and have fullbacks overlapping so they whip crosses into the box. It's hard to grasp the exact style you want and how you want to achieve this.

Using the width of the field does not mean endless crosses.

Its not hard actually, I want to stretch the field to open up the defense in the middle and not to cross it in, the full backs should overlap and work in tandem with the inside forward , therefore create one on one situations for the if to cut inside while the fullback pushes forward to occupy the midfielder .

You're still not learning though how you play and how every role fits together, especially in the short amount of time you've been doing this since dialogue was opened. You're shifting from one thing to the next in the hope you magically stumble across a working combination. This is highly unlikely, you need to go back to basics and learn about the set up you use and how the thousands of TI's you use actually change the way the base and shape plays. I doubt you know or fully understand the impact these are having on your performance and tactic in general. You need to understand all of these before you can move forward or how will you know what's causing the issues and what isn't?

I am not just trying to do random things, thats a frankly ridiculous suggestion, I have not just started to play this game yesterday or started to watch football 2 days ago.

My setup hardly differs from the setup you yourself chose in the art of possession post, only I use a higher line and a different midfield combination.

You have seen my setup yourself and tell me the ifs move like they do because that's how the central midfield is setup, but you cannot tell me why despite accusing me of having no idea how I set up my team

I watched the PKM you uploaded and saw lots wrong, surely you can watch the game back and make a list of what's wrong too? Then have a look at if the roles you've used or TI's/PI's could possibly be changing the players behavior.

I saw lots of wrong too, yes, especially how the ifs behave and how they get succed in narrow , making it hard for the midfielders or false 9 to find them and also if on occasion they move better the central midfielders still tend to ignore them for the pass to the fullback instead.

I'm not being awkward on purpose but you're asking questions that only you have answers too. Even the PKM you uploaded didn't really show the issues you set out to prove nor did the things you say happen time and time again happen frequent for the reasons you said. This is why it's vital to start at the beginning again and have a clear vision.

I am not trying to prove anything and I do not have any answers, I just reported what I tried and the result that did not happen and I described the general tendencies I have observed in this version of the game, ifs get sucked narrow, central midfielders ignore them , pass to the fullback instead

I have been trying to correct that.

Franky I don't really see how my posts warrant the smug and accusatory tone you use, it's getting really hard for me not to start writing in a similar accusatory manner.

I dont really want to do this because I don't want this post to end in a series of personal attacks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Franky I don't really see how my posts warrant the smug and accusatory tone you use, it's getting really hard for me not to start writing in a similar accusatory manner.

I dont really want to do this because I don't want this post to end in a series of personal attacks.

Honestly, I think the passive aggressive tone of the title was a bad way to start. It suggests that you're not really looking for answers, but rather being sarcastic.

I think there are some solid tips, you could try 1 or 2 tweaks based on what you're reading here and report back. First things first, try benching Samper and replacing him with someone without that PPM and switch to AP to see if there's any change to the behavior over a period of a few games. If not, you may have to look at a more detailed tactical adjustment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Watch some old Barca games. Xavi, and Barca in general don't play a ton of what we would consider through balls from 30 yards out. They do, however, love to utilize Dani Alves.....the right full back. Iniesta is/was more likely to attempt the through ball, but I don't think we'd ever consider him a DLP. It's the wrong role and wrong player to achieve what you want. Find yourself a AP that likes to play through balls and adjust from your possession based instructions, or at least adjust PIs to suit your needs.

There really aren't any tactical geniuses in FM. We all try a variety of different things in an attempt to achieve our goals. See the 4-5-1 thread for example. It looks like that formation may be a complete bust, but we've tried and tested a variety of different roles, TIs and PIs with limited success. I've since abandoned the formation, but I still have the same goals. What you think should work and how it actually plays out are often different, so we must adjust. PPMs are a really big deal in FM. A player will almost certainly ignore other instructions if he has his own way that he's married to. The biggest adjustment you may need to make is to find an alternative to Samper, or adjust your tactic to better suit him.

If you really want to use the Barca example, yes its true Xavi played less trough balls and his role should be dlp , but he might have played less direct balls and kept possession, he really played a lot of direct through balls despite that.

He had 30 assists in one season, you can look up Xavi assist on youtube, you cant tell me that he hardly did play balls like that.

In my example I wasnt even talkin about the obvious through ball, the simple pass the the false 9 was the most riskless option, the player still chose a diagonal over the head of the defender.

I agree that ppms might lead to ignoring instructions, but I think the main problem with my tactic is how the ifs move giving the midfielder no real option to pass to them consistently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you try give them the instruction to Stay Wider?

This will make them late the cute inside movement, and perhaps be more open to receive the pass from the midfielders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I'll reiterate that I haven't read every word of every response, so maybe I missed something.

We are now willing to accept that there may be a logical in game reason for Samper choosing, what you consider, perhaps the 3rd best passing option open to him, so we'll go ahead and move past that. I don't mind the pass to the oncoming full back, you hate it. Each to his own.

Maybe I thinking about the latter day Xavi. He was a bit of a glorified possession keeper towards the end.

So, and apologies if this has been detailed above, but what is it you're looking for from your attacking wide players? What's your vision for your tactic?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Have you try give them the instruction to Stay Wider?

This will make them late the cute inside movement, and perhaps be more open to receive the pass from the midfielders.

Yes I tried that, it is a bit better, but he ends up the in the same narrow position when the ball is in a higher position .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Using the width of the field does not mean endless crosses.

But the roles do that you've used because you have a lack of options when the IF's move too early and the central midfielders you use don't use them because you've restricted what they can do when they have the ball. Add to this that your DLP likes to switch the ball to the flanks then you aren't really going to do anything else other than cross because the IF's will be central and the only free players you have are the fullbacks.

I am not just trying to do random things, thats a frankly ridiculous suggestion, I have not just started to play this game yesterday or started to watch football 2 days ago.

It doesn't matter how long you've played the game, time doesn't equal learning what you use works. If that was the case you'd have none of the current issues you do. It's what you do with he time you've played for that is important. But still, your view of how FM works and it actually working are still worlds apart. Hence why you need to learn the basics.

My setup hardly differs from the setup you yourself chose in the art of possession post, only I use a higher line and a different midfield combination.

It differs vastly as we wanted different things. Even 1 role difference makes a huge incomparable difference to the end product and how it's achieved.

You have seen my setup yourself and tell me the ifs move like they do because that's how the central midfield is setup, but you cannot tell me why despite accusing me of having no idea how I set up my team

I've told you on more than one occasion why. Stop being selective with your reading. I'll provide quotes;

If you want him to provide killer balls then lose the retain shout or give him a more suitable role that allows it often, rather than a semi reserved role that is allowing him to use his PPM too much. The issue is a bad role mixed with weird PPM's for what you are actually wanting the player to do.
You want the IF's to be used more and hit early but they aren't making intelligent movement. It's like they're too high and aggressive in build up play and this is making it hard for the players who feed them the ball
The three most advanced players you have are marked and the one on the opposite side isn't really an option. And the most central player is moving away from goal when in fact, you want someone to be moving forward at this point.
Franky I don't really see how my posts warrant the smug and accusatory tone you use, it's getting really hard for me not to start writing in a similar accusatory manner.

I dont really want to do this because I don't want this post to end in a series of personal attacks.

I'm being blunt and direct yes, don't confuse that with personal attacks. You want help and I'm giving it as have others and every single person is feeling like you're not listening. The issue is it's not easy to communicate with yourself as you are reluctant to give any real info out, we have to push you really hard for it. It's like we are giving you answers and there is always an excuse from yourself why you can't do this or that. Or you say you've tried it etc without offering more about what you actually tried and how it differed. You're looking for someone to tell you all the answers without using the information given and seeing what works for you best and what you're creating.

I've just gone back through the thread and 3 others have all told you how you could fix the issues too.

It's been hard to get information out of you for some bizarre reason. You was asked in the 3rd post to provide more information yet you didn't post your tactic until post 67. Surely you have to see how frustrating this is for us, you seek help yet aren;t forthright with the information making it hard to give you and advice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...