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noikeee

Lack of inside forward regens?

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I'm in 2028 and I'm starting to find it difficult to pick up players who play "wrong-footed" in the AML and AMR positions. It seems as most regens all play in the same wing as their preferred foot, and very few are able to play in the "wrong" wing, or both wings. Most of my player searches for these positions pick up real players who are now in their 30s.

Anyone else with the same problem?

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I can, and I've been doing so, but there's a couple of problems. First, not every player will manage to be retrained to the other side, I've got a player I signed 6 months ago who I'm retraining that isn't even "awkward" yet. Then there's the fact I'm playing a system of tactics where it's convenient to me that my wingers are capable of playing all 4 positions - ML, MR, AMR, AML - as I mess with tactics often and if you've got a player that can only play ML/AML for example, you cannot train him to both MR and AMR. I understand this demands highly versatile players and not everyone will be capable of that, but the difference between players in the original database and regens is striking. Most players in the original database, if they're natural/accomplished at ML/AML, will have some level of competence in the other wing. But the regens, the vast majority of them aren't even "awkward" in those positions!

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What about training them to use their other foot then?

Only other option would be to use the in-game editor.

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The problems with those sort of arguments is that 99,9% of the players in the database are not managed by me. If there are balance issue with player types it doesn't help much that I can fix it if the AI doesn't do the same.

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Yeah I have noticed this, and in addition there is a real lack of regens who are natural ML/MR and wide midfielder role. It seems the game is only programmed to produce regens who are natural one side and are wingers. I am in season 10 are there is 1 regen in the world who is able to play ML wide mid.

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I can, and I've been doing so, but there's a couple of problems. First, not every player will manage to be retrained to the other side, I've got a player I signed 6 months ago who I'm retraining that isn't even "awkward" yet. Then there's the fact I'm playing a system of tactics where it's convenient to me that my wingers are capable of playing all 4 positions - ML, MR, AMR, AML - as I mess with tactics often and if you've got a player that can only play ML/AML for example, you cannot train him to both MR and AMR. I understand this demands highly versatile players and not everyone will be capable of that, but the difference between players in the original database and regens is striking. Most players in the original database, if they're natural/accomplished at ML/AML, will have some level of competence in the other wing. But the regens, the vast majority of them aren't even "awkward" in those positions!

Position training was a bug and has been fixed in the latest update, I had major problems with it too.

Onto regens, I've noticed too that AML's are usually left footed and AMR's right. Abit more of a mix would be nice

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The problems with those sort of arguments is that 99,9% of the players in the database are not managed by me. If there are balance issue with player types it doesn't help much that I can fix it if the AI doesn't do the same.

This, absolutely.

Position training was a bug and has been fixed in the latest update, I had major problems with it too.

I had too, but this is a player I've hired after the patch. 6 months and the little idiot isn't even awkward at AMR yet. Takes "resistance to change" to a whole new level.

Regarding the lack of players capable of playing in both wings, I think I'll file a bug report, SI might miss this thread.

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I've got the opposite problem, I'd love a left footed left winger but my best option is this right footed inside forward.

My scouts have spotted this player and this one as the best prospect to sign for the left wing. No sign of a left footed left winger :(

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Well, notice how none of them are capable of playing in both wings. Except Memaj... who is natural AML, accomplished ML, competent MR but can't play AMR at all?? :eek:

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I'll be honest, I just read the opening post. I wasn't looking for inside forwards that played both wings.

My best player may fit the bill though.

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Not too bad. Can I loan him for my Austria Wien side?

Unfortunately not, I need him to play right wing ;)

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Same case to the fullbacks. 90% of the regen fullbacks are limited fullbacks. And the number of ball-playing defenders are too few also IMO.

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Same case to the fullbacks. 90% of the regen fullbacks are limited fullbacks. And the number of ball-playing defenders are too few also IMO.

I think this is logical though. BPD's and CWB's should be formed by the manager by training. It would be very weird if a regen is already a BPD or CWB because of the specific skillset required to be one of those roles. Same could be said for IF's, if you look in real life a lot of IF's are formed to be one over the years and do not start as an IF.

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I think this is logical though. BPD's and CWB's should be formed by the manager by training. It would be very weird if a regen is already a BPD or CWB because of the specific skillset required to be one of those roles. Same could be said for IF's, if you look in real life a lot of IF's are formed to be one over the years and do not start as an IF.

I don't agree at all. In real life lots of players come through the youth ranks trained as pretty fitting for specific roles. Also, why don't the AI train them properly then? I'm talking about a lack of players well into their late 20s, as I'm enough into the future that the world has been taken over by regens.

Also inside forward is quite a particular role, as it has more to do with the preferred foot than just training specific attributes (although you can have a left-footed IF on the left wing, but that plays differently and that's not what I want). It's not even just the lack of left-footed players playing on the right wing and vice-versa, it's the complete lack of players capable of playing in both wings. On the contrary there seems to be a surplus of players able to play centre-midfield AND wing; or striker and just one wing. It's seems as if players are generated according to a couple profiles of positions, and these just aren't proportional to the original database where players are more versatile, and the vast majority of wingers can play both wings, or at least aren't completely 100% unsuited at it (ie will have some positions as "awkward" or "unconvincing" - most winger regens don't even have that).

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I think this is logical though. BPD's and CWB's should be formed by the manager by training. It would be very weird if a regen is already a BPD or CWB because of the specific skillset required to be one of those roles. Same could be said for IF's, if you look in real life a lot of IF's are formed to be one over the years and do not start as an IF.

Nope. The initial attributes of the limited defenders are far too low to allow them to be developed as a ball-playing defender, especially passing, vision and composure. Even being trained as a ball-playing defender once they are regened, these attributes will be only around 7-8. Same case with the crossing, first touch of limited fullbacks.

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I agree with everything said here, the regen templates seem to come straight from the early 2000s in England: Big defenders that can't control a ball, Michael Owen-like poachers en masse, wing players that know only to run down the line and cross etc. You can see that SI hasn't really touched those templates in a decade.

A major part of the problem is that regens are extreme in their attribute distribution, totally unbalanced compared to the original database. The real good ones (those starting with a high CA) have like 15+ in 5 attributes and less than 5 in 8 or 9 attributes, no matter the position. You will hardly find any young player like that in the original database.

That's the reason why I never play until regens take over; they just change the game so much compared to how football is played with the original database

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Well you can always play them as Ramdeuter for attack duty/Advanced Playmakers for support duty... if their stats fit the roles.

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if u get a striker in youth intake or buy a striker train them as an inside forward, i do so and m using it successfully, this game is really ****** in many regen aspects, but i often get a lot of strikers, atck. mid (rl), i use geniescout and there are a lot of very high potential players in those positions, but significantly lot less defenders of caliber of players like sergio ramos, Jesus vallejo. all the good defenders are either short in height like 5'9-5'11" very less are of 6 ft or greater, and lots of regens have short imp match attribute even 1!! only... this regens system needs to be fixed for sure, but as i said if u want those inside forward look for strikers and train them, it may take a long time, remove those extra burdens like individual training or tutoring or new traits to train them quickly and take risk to play him there in matches. how quickly he will be able to get familiarised depends on the hidden attribute (versatility) but one warning get them to fully natural if u want want to play him only there otherwise get to the accomplished and remove him because of he gets natural there he will lose familiarity a little in his previous natural position but again that also depends on that special attribute..

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On 11/03/2016 at 20:39, chestermike said:

Yeah I have noticed this, and in addition there is a real lack of regens who are natural ML/MR and wide midfielder role. It seems the game is only programmed to produce regens who are natural one side and are wingers. I am in season 10 are there is 1 regen in the world who is able to play ML wide mid.

I don't think there's anyone in the game that can play wide midfielder RM/LM with the full green circle. Or at least I haven't seen it yet.

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31 minutes ago, Sheep said:

I don't think there's anyone in the game that can play wide midfielder RM/LM with the full green circle. Or at least I haven't seen it yet.

yep as i said a lot of things have to be fixed specially that low imp match attribute and also positions

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5 hours ago, Sheep said:

I don't think there's anyone in the game that can play wide midfielder RM/LM with the full green circle. Or at least I haven't seen it yet.

On fm18 yeah I haven't found a single one yet, and I have every team and player in Europe loaded up.

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On 3/21/2016 at 02:04, noikeee said:

I've added a thread in the bugs forum regarding this, and a few other traits I find wrong with regens. I suggest other people who feel the same or have found other weird things with regens, should add their concerns there.

There was some guy, I think a Turkish researcher who submitted a thread in the bugs forum about this issue, some months ago. I can't find it now :rolleyes:.
But I remember reading it, he had statistical comparisons, etc. And this was many months ago in FM17.
So, still not fixed...

 

On 3/13/2016 at 22:25, Raniel3 said:

I agree with everything said here, the regen templates seem to come straight from the early 2000s in England: Big defenders that can't control a ball, Michael Owen-like poachers en masse, wing players that know only to run down the line and cross etc. You can see that SI hasn't really touched those templates in a decade.

A major part of the problem is that regens are extreme in their attribute distribution, totally unbalanced compared to the original database. The real good ones (those starting with a high CA) have like 15+ in 5 attributes and less than 5 in 8 or 9 attributes, no matter the position. You will hardly find any young player like that in the original database.

That's the reason why I never play until regens take over; they just change the game so much compared to how football is played with the original database

No, YOU ARE WRONG. You know why? Because someone from the staff here said so (don't recall exactly who).
Who is ilkork or Raniel3 that point out the obvious? That the original database has nothing in common with the regen database? Is ilkork or Raniel3 going to fix this issue that's been going on since...forever?
No. You know why? Because "it's diversity that improves our experience", according to someone from the staff here. Yes, the regen database with its awful attribute distribution improves my experience...

You and me are nothing here, just forum members. But if you do believe in hope, upvote this.

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Just to point out two things here. The first is that you can play a player out of position without too many penalties being applied. I think I have read that it is predominantly their decisions that take a dive. So if you have a right footed winger who you want to play on the left, play him while retraining. It will also help him develop at that position better.

The second is that, to some extent, you can ignore the ratings for different positions. I have had players with 1.5 or 2 stars excel in a position and role they are not natural for. This, of course, depends exactly what you want for a player; there is no point playing a complete wing back who just cannot cross, for example. But if a player is doing his job, that is the most important thing.

I know these points do not address the initial issues, and it is good to see a bug report in place, but I just wanted to try to give some advice to mitigate the problems whilst it is reviewed.

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8 minutes ago, ilkork said:

There was some guy, I think a Turkish researcher who submitted a thread in the bugs forum about this issue, some months ago. I can't find it now :rolleyes:.
But I remember reading it, he had statistical comparisons, etc. And this was many months ago in FM17.
So, still not fixed...

 

No, YOU ARE WRONG. You know why? Because someone from the staff here said so (don't recall exactly who).
Who is ilkork or Raniel3 that point out the obvious? That the original database has nothing in common with the regen database? Is ilkork or Raniel3 going to fix this issue that's been going on since...forever?
No. You know why? Because "it's diversity that improves our experience", according to someone from the staff here. Yes, the regen database with its awful attribute distribution improves my experience...

You and me are nothing here, just forum members. But if you do believe in hope, upvote this.

Upvoting a post is far less useful than a proper report with save game evidence. If there's an issue, please report it. Adjustments are being made fairly often, so if you've found an issue, let SI check it out and make a proper case. It may be a lack of regens suitable for a role or it may be the role calculation being off, meaning AI managers don't use players as IFs etc.

Here https://community.sigames.com/topic/397872-newgens-making-the-game-unplayable/?page=2 for instance, nothing of the sort has been said.

If you find issues, report them please.

 

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45 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Here https://community.sigames.com/topic/397872-newgens-making-the-game-unplayable/?page=2 for instance, nothing of the sort has been said.

I'm sorry, what do you mean by that? What "hasn't been said"?
 

45 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

If you find issues, report them please.

Unfortunately, that's for someone else to do. I've stopped playing saves once newgens take over the world, because of issues like in the OP or the attribute distribution.
Although, I will gladly check a save and compare things, should someone give it to me.

Edited by ilkork

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32 minutes ago, ilkork said:

I'm sorry, what do you mean by that? What "hasn't been said"?

Read your own post back. Then read the link I posted with Seb's comments. You claim that SI said a lot of things but don't back it up. In the link I posted, that's not what was said at all, so this isn't the attitude SI has regarding regen issues or any other issue.

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im not sure its quite that easy in rl though is it ? i mean sturridge played on the left for chelsea and man city and liverpool but still hates the position and prefers to play uptop and doesnt perform great out there. in rl you cant just take a player and go right there you go thats your new position and siz months later hes a natural.

also in the game doesnt it depend a lot on his personality and other stats. like adapting and determination and others

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47 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Read your own post back. Then read the link I posted with Seb's comments. You claim that SI said a lot of things but don't back it up. In the link I posted, that's not what was said at all, so this isn't the attitude SI has regarding regen issues or any other issue.

Really, you don't have to search a lot to find it. In fact, quoting Seb Wassell from the link you posted:

On 3/6/2017 at 18:29, Seb Wassell said:

we actually did some work behind the scenes this year on trying to bring a little more variety to the newgens in each save, so that you don't see the same gameworld over and over.


Also, if you have a look at those 2 topics: https://community.sigames.com/topic/403056-something-needs-to-be-done-regarding-youngsters/  and https://community.sigames.com/topic/401745-youngsterswonderkids-unable-to-develop-into-complete-players/ , you can find similar statements. Especially from researchers. So, one's conclusion can be that "it's variation/diversity that improves experience".
Sure, many said that it's a system and like all systems it can definitely be improved.
But the point is that the original database is an excellent work (from people that work for free, it's worth mentioning that), while the newgen attribute distribution system has nothing in common with it, and it is in fact not so good work.

 

Edited by ilkork

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12 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Really, you don't have to search a lot to find it. In fact, quoting Seb Wassell from the link you posted:


Also, if you have a look at those 2 topics: https://community.sigames.com/topic/403056-something-needs-to-be-done-regarding-youngsters/  and https://community.sigames.com/topic/401745-youngsterswonderkids-unable-to-develop-into-complete-players/ , you can find similar statements. Especially from researchers. So, one's conclusion can be that "it's variation/diversity that improves experience".
Sure, many said that it's a system and like all systems it can definitely be improved.

The point is that the original database is an excellent work (from people that work for free, it's worth mentioning that), while the newgen attribute distribution system has nothing in common with it, and it is in fact not so good work.

 

Okay, I'm not going to get into a debate with you and this will be the last reply to you. You misquoted the diversity improves experience reference completely. Either that or you didn't understand what was said. It was simply said that SI didn't want to copy the databases exactly, so there will be a some variation. Not a complete lack of inside forward regens etc. as it's clearly an issue and clearly not what was said. If it's a season or a couple of season without regens coming through, then it's fair, but if in 10 years, there are just no IF regens, it's quite likely an issue.

And yes, the system may not be perfect. It may never be. But as always, issues should be reported to investigate it properly and maybe then improve it.

Quote

 

To follow up on my earlier post in this thread I would like to reiterate that this is one of those areas of the game that is constantly monitored and tweaked internally. I've read through everything here thus far and whilst I do not necessarily agree with all of it we will certainly be following up on the points raised, as we did last year.

What would be most helpful is specific issues being raised individually in the bugs forum, that way we can take your observations a step further and use the tools we have here to assess causes and what needs to be done. As ever it is worth noting that just because there appears to be a surplus or deficit of one type of player in your save does not mean it is a DB-wide or game-wide issue, we actually did some work behind the scenes this year on trying to bring a little more variety to the newgens in each save, so that you don't see the same gameworld over and over. Of course this should not be to the detriment of a realistic footballing world and as such examples of where this is lacking are very much welcome over in the bugs forum.

 

If many people are getting the same experience, ie a lack of inside forward regens, then it's an issue.

Quote

The idea is to recreate the spread of the starting DB within a reasonable margin of variation. We don't want an unbalanced gameworld but nor do we want the starting DB exactly copied. This goes for both player ability levels and "types" of players.

 

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my idea for regens is that they are created by si, every time the regens get added at what ever date they are downloaded and every game gets the same ones. this wahy the re gens can be closely monitored and can be created withg the righbt attributes. and the very interesting thing is although we all get the same re gens the game will be different for everyone as everyone will train them different and play them differently so would create some good debates and see who are the best youth managers 

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2 hours ago, ilkork said:

But the point is that the original database is an excellent work (from people that work for free, it's worth mentioning that), while the newgen attribute distribution system has nothing in common with it, and it is in fact not so good work.

Hold on. The "newgen attribute distribution system", assuming you are referring to what I think you are, is in fact incredibly closely linked to the original DB. We literally use it as our blueprint for how the system creates future newgen-based DBs, adding in some variation to ensure it isn't just copied exactly. Whilst the original researched DB is a fantastic piece of work by some great people it certainly does not mean that there cannot be mistakes in it, the newgen system looks to take the good bits and ignore/correct these mistakes when it comes to creating newgens.

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I have had a lot of winger regens come through my academy, but then I play wingers so I wondered if that had an impact. 

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32 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

The "newgen attribute distribution system", assuming you are referring to what I think you are, is in fact incredibly closely linked to the original DB. We literally use it as our blueprint for how the system creates future newgen-based DBs.

Assuming FM18 is the same as FM17 regarding the newgen attribute distribution (haven't checked FM18 newgens yet), why are the newgen's attributes so badly distributed, compared to the original players?
Please have a look at these youngsters who had "0" in their attributes pre-game and the attribute distribution the game did once I started it vs my attribute distribution (taken from this topic):

Spoiler

 Image to the left=Game's attribute distribution                                                     Image to the right=My attribute distribution

GK-D.Skafidas, 16y old
GK-_D.Skafidas-_Before.pngGK-_D.Skafidas-_After.png

DR-K.Panagou, 17y old
DR-_K.Panagou-_Before.pngDR-_K.Panagou-_After.png

DC-T.Tsiboukas, 17y old
DC-_T.Tsiboukas-_Before.pngDC-_T.Tsiboukas-_After.png

DC-P.Papadopoulos, 16y old
DC-_P.Papadopoulos-_Before.pngDC-_P.Papadopoulos-_After.png

DL-C.Markoulakis, 16y old
DL-_C.Markoulakis-_Before.pngDL-_C.Markoulakis-_After.png

MC-G.Angelopoulos, 17y old
MC-_G.Angelopoulos-_Before.pngMC-_G.Angelopoulos-_After.png

AMC-G.Neofytidis, 15y old
AMC-_Neofytidis-_Before.pngAMC-_Neofytidis-_After.png

AMR-T.Kostanasios, 17y old
AMR-_T.Kostanasios-_Before.pngAMR-_T.Kostanasios-_After.png

AML-A.Kabetsis, 17y old
AML-_A.Kabetsis-_Before.pngAML-_A.Kabetsis-_After.png

ST-T.Tsirigotis, 15y old
ST-_T.Tsirigotis-_Before.pngST-_T.Tsirigotis-_After.png

ST-F.Tsilikis, 18y old
ST-_F.Tsilikis-_Before.pngST-_F.Tsilikis-_After.png

Aren't you using the same system for distributing attributes to newgens?
Is it me, or their original distribution is bad and has nothing to do with the "researched players"?
Come on, we all know it's true, the researchers try to balance the attributes for a specific player, at least most of the times. But the newgens are unbalanced, at least most of the times.

Edited by ilkork

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59 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Assuming FM18 is the same as FM17 regarding the newgen attribute distribution (haven't checked FM18 newgens yet), why are the newgen's attributes so badly distributed, compared to the original players?
Please have a look at these youngsters who had "0" in their attributes pre-game and the attribute distribution the game did once I started it vs my attribute distribution (taken from this topic):

  Reveal hidden contents

 Image to the left=Game's attribute distribution                                                     Image to the right=My attribute distribution

GK-D.Skafidas, 16y old
GK-_D.Skafidas-_Before.pngGK-_D.Skafidas-_After.png

DR-K.Panagou, 17y old
DR-_K.Panagou-_Before.pngDR-_K.Panagou-_After.png

DC-T.Tsiboukas, 17y old
DC-_T.Tsiboukas-_Before.pngDC-_T.Tsiboukas-_After.png

DC-P.Papadopoulos, 16y old
DC-_P.Papadopoulos-_Before.pngDC-_P.Papadopoulos-_After.png

DL-C.Markoulakis, 16y old
DL-_C.Markoulakis-_Before.pngDL-_C.Markoulakis-_After.png

MC-G.Angelopoulos, 17y old
MC-_G.Angelopoulos-_Before.pngMC-_G.Angelopoulos-_After.png

AMC-G.Neofytidis, 15y old
AMC-_Neofytidis-_Before.pngAMC-_Neofytidis-_After.png

AMR-T.Kostanasios, 17y old
AMR-_T.Kostanasios-_Before.pngAMR-_T.Kostanasios-_After.png

AML-A.Kabetsis, 17y old
AML-_A.Kabetsis-_Before.pngAML-_A.Kabetsis-_After.png

ST-T.Tsirigotis, 15y old
ST-_T.Tsirigotis-_Before.pngST-_T.Tsirigotis-_After.png

ST-F.Tsilikis, 18y old
ST-_F.Tsilikis-_Before.pngST-_F.Tsilikis-_After.png

Aren't you using the same system for distributing attributes to newgens?
Is it me, or their original distribution is bad and has nothing to do with the "researched players"?
Come on, we all know it's true, the researchers try to balance the attributes for a specific player, at least most of the times. But the newgens are unbalanced, at least most of the times.

Those aren't newgens? Researchers try to reflect a player's real life abilities, not "balance" the attributes. What you have there are players that the researcher has not filled in some/all of the attributes, which means the system has to take the CA, position, any filled in attributes, etc. and fill in the gaps. Due to its nature that is obviously going to lead to players that look less realistic than if the researcher had completed them or if the system had generated them fresh, as with newgens. No, it is not the same, nor is it an accurate understanding of either the research process or the newgen system.

 

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9 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Those aren't newgens?

I could have replaced those images with images from newgens and the effect would have been the same. Bad attribute distribution.

10 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Researchers try to reflect a player's real life abilities, not "balance" the attributes.

True, but you end up with players who have a higher value in their "important" attributes. Take for example a "researched" CB:
-Higher values for Heading, Marking, Tackling,
-Higher values for Aggression, Anticipation, Bravery, Composure, Concentration, Decisions, Positioning, Teamwork, Work Rate,
-Higher values for Balance, Jumping Reach, Strength.

This happens the majority of the times. And a similar thing happens when researchers assign the hidden attributes. At least for the Important Matches attribute, as we can see from the following image (taken from this topic and transferred to a spreadsheet):
5a1d6ef1614ba_ImportantMatches(Overall).thumb.PNG.338357d6aaf489556355594fbe18ea23.PNG

We see that, at least for real players, the higher the PA, the better the Important Matches attribute is. But such thing doesn't happen with newgens, why?

And to be more exact, because someone would say "it's not fair to compare 25y old with newgens", here's a comparison between 15/16/17/18y old real players and newgens (taken from the same topic):
5a1d6f2c38095_ImportantMatches(RealPlayers-Newgens).thumb.PNG.954bcfd0bb6339bea0132b5541f50bf1.PNG

Here we see a completely different distribution of the Important Matches attribute between real players and newgens. Why?
 

1 hour ago, Seb Wassell said:

What you have there are players that the researcher has not filled in some/all of the attributes, which means the system has to take the CA, position, any filled in attributes, etc. and fill in the gaps. Due to its nature that is obviously going to lead to players that look less realistic than if the researcher had completed them or if the system had generated them fresh, as with newgens.

That's not the point. The point is that their attribute distribution is not the same as when a player has his values added by a researcher.
 

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In your above examples you need to exclude PA and rather focus on CA. The gameworld is defined by CA not PA.

I think this is getting away from us now. I understand your concerns, as I have mentioned the newgen system is an ever-evolving, ever-improving process and we have certainly noted your examples (these are compared with our comprehensive internal statistics to see where there is a correlation and what can be addressed), however I firmly believe it does a solid job overall. I could similarly show you examples of brilliant newgens and awful research but I'm not sure how helpful that would be. What it does show however is that we need to be careful holding up the research as "perfect" - I'm a researcher and I certainly wouldn't say my research is so reliable that we can base an entire gameworld on it. The newgen system attempts to base itself on the original DB but will exclude any abnormalities and tweak anything that is clearly biased/incorrect, with a healthy slice of variation thrown in of course. As mentioned, we look to improve this each year based on both our own metrics and public feedback.

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8 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

In your above examples you need to exclude PA and rather focus on CA. The gameworld is defined by CA not PA.

I think this is getting away from us now. I understand your concerns, as I have mentioned the newgen system is an ever-evolving, ever-improving process and we have certainly noted your examples (these are compared with our comprehensive internal statistics to see where there is a correlation and what can be addressed), however I firmly believe it does a solid job overall. I could similarly show you examples of brilliant newgens and awful research but I'm not sure how helpful that would be. What it does show however is that we need to be careful holding up the research as "perfect" - I'm a researcher and I certainly wouldn't say my research is so reliable that we can base an entire gameworld on it. The newgen system attempts to base itself on the original DB but will exclude any abnormalities and tweak anything that is clearly biased/incorrect, with a healthy slice of variation thrown in of course. As mentioned, we look to improve this each year based on both our own metrics and public feedback.

The second image doesn't include PA at all, just the players.
Anyway, I kinda hijacked this topic. Thank you for your time :thup:.

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2 minutes ago, ilkork said:

The second image doesn't include PA at all, just the players.
Anyway, I kinda hijacked this topic. Thank you for your time :thup:.

FYI I edited my above post before your reply, may read a little better now.

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