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Is it just me?


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Most teams I play against are amazing at first touch passing to anyone on their team anywhere on the pitch!

Even when I ask my players to play the highest tempo they seem to take 2/3 touches and some seem to wait for the opposition to tackle them.

When they do pass they pass to no-one, to a space or behind a player.

I have compared my passing stats to the teams that seem to be able to ping the ball to anyone they want, at will, and I have players of the same passing stats if not slightly better.

I would show you my tactics etc if I knew how.

Please help me!

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4-1-1-3-1

Goalkeeper

Fullbacks (support)

Central Defenders (defend)

Ball wining midfielder (defend)

Box to box midfielder

Winger (support)

Advanced playmaker (support)

Inside forward (support)

Complete forward (support)

Standard and flexible Much higher tempo Balanced Play out of defence work ball into box Run less more expressive

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First thing that might hurt you is more defensively, having a BWM as your lone player could drag him out of position so I would keep an eye on that.

Attacking wise I would guess much higher tempo could hurt you in attack as it will rush the players into making a choice.

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But i have seen teams play one touch football against me and want to play the same.

Do you have right players to play that type of football?

Play with high tempo could be very dangerous if you don't have player with right attribute to avoid losing the ball.

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I have good passers, what other attributes do I look for?

First Touch, Composure, Decision, Off the ball, Vision. Passing attribute means that your player is able to do a good pass but before......your players have to control the ball, look for teammate which have to move off the ball, than you player have to decide where pass the ball, stay calm if is pressed, and have the tecnique to do. Than he will pass the ball.

Let me give you an example. I set a 4-2-3-1 with short passing because I want to play with quick passes. I tried it with F.C. Inter, absolutely struggling. I try the same tactic with Arsenal and....beautiful football. Why? Because Ozil, Ox, Ramsey, Alexis....have the attribute that Brozovic, Perisic, Guarin, Melo, Medel didn't have.

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If I may be so bold, I think our friend might be confused as to why opposing players of a lesser ability are able to look like Barcelona when compared to his side. Maybe to give the game a difficulty level this situation has to develop? I've played my first team against my reserve side and watched the reserves absolutely outplay my first team, despite their ability numbers being far below the standard of the first team players. In fact, the first team players can look like they've never played football. I've put this down to lacking tactics familiarity, even though the reserves are using the same tactics that have just been introduced. I still try to play the game and get some enjoyment but have to admit that this sort of thing is totally unrealistic and feels rather stupid. I know the next answer will be it's caused by a lack of motivation, playing against the reserves, but that still doesn't escape the fact that my reserves are producing football way better than their profiles should be allowing. Like I said above, is this because the ME is coded to look at what you are doing and if it's wrong punish you in some way no matter what your opposition is? I have accepted what happens and carry on, but it would be interesting if someone could come up with the real explanations as to why this happens.

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If I may be so bold, I think our friend might be confused as to why opposing players of a lesser ability are able to look like Barcelona when compared to his side. Maybe to give the game a difficulty level this situation has to develop? I've played my first team against my reserve side and watched the reserves absolutely outplay my first team, despite their ability numbers being far below the standard of the first team players. In fact, the first team players can look like they've never played football. I've put this down to lacking tactics familiarity, even though the reserves are using the same tactics that have just been introduced. I still try to play the game and get some enjoyment but have to admit that this sort of thing is totally unrealistic and feels rather stupid. I know the next answer will be it's caused by a lack of motivation, playing against the reserves, but that still doesn't escape the fact that my reserves are producing football way better than their profiles should be allowing. Like I said above, is this because the ME is coded to look at what you are doing and if it's wrong punish you in some way no matter what your opposition is? I have accepted what happens and carry on, but it would be interesting if someone could come up with the real explanations as to why this happens.

This is one of my main gripes with FM for years. I know this means they are playing defensively and keeping hold of the ball, but they play some fantastic looking football just stringing short accurate passes together seemingly with ease no matter how bad their attributes are, while my players are running around like headless chickens trying to close them down. I never seem to be able to replicate that style of play myself though.

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If I may be so bold, I think our friend might be confused as to why opposing players of a lesser ability are able to look like Barcelona when compared to his side. Maybe to give the game a difficulty level this situation has to develop? I've played my first team against my reserve side and watched the reserves absolutely outplay my first team, despite their ability numbers being far below the standard of the first team players. In fact, the first team players can look like they've never played football. I've put this down to lacking tactics familiarity, even though the reserves are using the same tactics that have just been introduced. I still try to play the game and get some enjoyment but have to admit that this sort of thing is totally unrealistic and feels rather stupid. I know the next answer will be it's caused by a lack of motivation, playing against the reserves, but that still doesn't escape the fact that my reserves are producing football way better than their profiles should be allowing. Like I said above, is this because the ME is coded to look at what you are doing and if it's wrong punish you in some way no matter what your opposition is? I have accepted what happens and carry on, but it would be interesting if someone could come up with the real explanations as to why this happens.

This is just not true.

AI teams use exactly the same match engine as we human managers do, with the same ability to use mentality, team shape, TIs and so on. There is no mysterious under the hood shenanigans going on to make lesser teams look better than they are.

If the AI team looks like they are playing in that style and you can't, it's because the AI has set itself up accordingly and (sorry to say this), you haven't.

The ME is not "coded to look at what you are doing and...punish you in some way no matter what your opposition" - that would mean the game is scripted which it absolutely is not. You ask for a real explanation as to why this happens? Post your detailed tactical system and someone will tell you. If your reserves are outplaying your first team then again, post your detailed tactical system.

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If you want to play one-touch quick passing football I highly doubt a ball-winning midfielder, a box-to-box midfielder and a winger will help. Those are all roles typically more suited to a British physical type football, although they can be interpreted differently by the right players.

I think to pull this off, you're hugely dependent on your players. You need excellent attributes all the way throughout your team for vision, decisions, composure, teamwork, first touch, off the ball, technique, maybe even anticipation. Certainly not just passing! And watch out for PPMs too.

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Hehe, it reminds me my first ever match soon after I installed FM16 in my first test save. I decided to play with my reserves because my assistant advised that. My first team lost 4 nil and reserves played very beautiful football including perfect passes and first touch, nice ball movement, pressing. Just WOW. My reserves were all grey players but 2 very crappy ones. By default they used the same tactic as my fist team, probably very stupid and not balanced however still the same. I thought that my first team has never played football before and behaved like headless chickens on the pitch. It looks that I have a trauma after that because I just realized I always reject such assistant offers after taking over new team :)

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Sorry Herne79, you've misunderstood what I was trying to say. I had no intention to say the game is scripted, just wondering how at the beginning of a new game the AI is able to make my reserves look like world beaters and my first team make irrationally bad errors and decisions. You say you need my formation and tactics to make sense of this, and I've already told you that the reserves are playing the same formation and I presume tactics as my first team as instructed by me. That being the case, what do you suggest I'm doing so wrong, or differently than my reserve team manager (AI), that would make the players in my charge perform so badly and the reserves play so well, despite having much much weaker attribute levels? As far as I can see, in this scenario surely the only difference there can be between the two sides is team talks, opp instructions, in game shouts and substitutions? I'm not having a go at anybody, just asking if anybody can explain why this happens because for me and presumably others it does appear to be a bit unrealistic. I'm no tactical genius so wouldn't have the nerve to make comment about tactics as the game progresses after this. Just for info anyway, my tactic was 4-1-2-3 fluid, control but it could have been any formation that adds up to the right number of players surely if both teams are playing the same?.......... Having typed all this, I've just realised I'm missing one thing and might have just answered my own question. Is my reserve manager using different roles by any chance? If so, any chance I could crib what he is doing? lol. Anyway, it's not the end of the world is it, just interested if it can be explained to me?

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It isn't just you.

I've seen that crap in this ME in my favor too. It's very unrealistic that a smaller team can draw or even defeat a bigger team 9 out of 10 games. And its not only our team that struggle with that, it happens to the AI teams too.

It's not reallistic at all that I can win the Champions League with Benfica in the 1st sesson with the original players + Gabriel Barbosa - Nico Gaitan. There's too much difference in reality for that to be possible, nevertheless I've done it for the 1st time in many years, and with very little effort. Beatting teams like Chelsea, PSG and Barcelona without any problems. Players like Messi, Neymar, etc. were totally eclipsed by my average players. I've just given my team more defensive instructions and voilá, they've turned in to the best players in Europe.

What drives me nuts its the other way around. When smaller teams do that to me and I cant find a way to solve that problem. In the past increasing tempo and other things almost always solve the issue, and many times a late goal would punish the defensive team, but with this ME that seems to create even bigger problems. What I see many times is that the smaller team (with crappy players, some of them rated 1/2 star fot my team) can dominate in the midfield with great passes, with closing down in the right moment, with better reaction times, with great tackling (almost no faults), etc. Someone will say that they are more motivated, and I would agree, but that should not be enough to balance the game or even put it in their favor.

The players should not change so much in their performances just because they are more motivated or are playing more defensively. That's what I think its unrealistic with this ME.

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I've seen that crap in this ME in my favor too. It's very unrealistic that a smaller team can draw or even defeat a bigger team 9 out of 10 games. And its not only our team that struggle with that, it happens to the AI teams too.

You are generalising and exaggerating, which only helps to create myths.

If big teams really did lose or draw 9 out of 10 matches, teams such as Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Juventus, PSG and Chelsea would all get relegated (or finish near the bottom) in everyone's saves. Take a look at your save - were they relegated?

Or more specifically for you, where did your Benfica side finish in the league? Near the bottom or at the top? If at the top, you haven't just lost or drawn 90% of your matches have you.

Context is everything. If you (or anyone else) are having problems, detail your tactical system along with what you have tried to solve your issue.

The end result for you and other players of losing to small teams is just that - the end result. How individual players end up at that result will be different, because we all have different tactical systems, and not because we are all using the same ME.

If it were down to the "crap in this ME" as you put it, we would all have the same issue. And we don't.

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To be fair, Benfica is way overrated in FM16. They won CL in one of my saves 2 times in 3 years which is just crazy. And I'm talking about first three seasons. And I've seen them coming to semis way too often in all my saves in general.

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To be fair, Benfica is way overrated in FM16. They won CL in one of my saves 2 times in 3 years which is just crazy. And I'm talking about first three seasons. And I've seen them coming to semis way too often in all my saves in general.

Benfica are strong in this version of FM.... But, if we were in September 2015 IRL I would have put more money on Benfica on winning the Champions League than Leicester being favorites for the Premier League at this point in the season.... Funny things happen in real life too ;)

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You are generalising and exaggerating, which only helps to create myths.

If big teams really did lose or draw 9 out of 10 matches, teams such as Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Juventus, PSG and Chelsea would all get relegated (or finish near the bottom) in everyone's saves. Take a look at your save - were they relegated?

Maybe I was, but my idea is that big clubs should never lose 2 games in a row to a smaller club like Benfica. In the long run they still manage to get in the 1st positions in their leagues, but they lose too much points in my opinion. Look at PSG that are already champions in France this year, in my view that is very unlikely to happen in FM1016.

Or more specifically for you, where did your Benfica side finish in the league? Near the bottom or at the top? If at the top, you haven't just lost or drawn 90% of your matches have you.

Context is everything. If you (or anyone else) are having problems, detail your tactical system along with what you have tried to solve your issue.

I didnt post the comment because of my problems, it drives me nuts, but thats not the bigger problem. The worst is that playing defensively is too overpowered and that it should not be that way. Read the last setence, please...

The end result for you and other players of losing to small teams is just that - the end result. How individual players end up at that result will be different, because we all have different tactical systems, and not because we are all using the same ME.

If it were down to the "crap in this ME" as you put it, we would all have the same issue. And we don't.

I was giving the example of my team against bigger teams, but I should have said that the main problem I see is in games AI vs. AI in wich 1 is a bigger team then the other. I dont say that the smaller team shouldnt cause problems to the big team, what I say is that if you observe the game the smaller team looks like the bigger team and vice-versa, in terms of quality play. They close down better, they pass better, they tackle better, they shoot better, etc.

In that way I think that the ME should be balanced a little bit.

A big club with great players that plays in the same tactic for years, like Barcelona, should cause some problems against all teams. And if the team is underperforming, the quality of Messi, Neymar and Suarez (probably the best attacking trio in the world) in a moment could win the match for them.

I never said the problem is tactical. For me the problem is of motivation and mentality play. Playing in counter-attack or defensive in combination with some instructions like "hold the ball" is to overpowered because the bigger teams struggles to recover the ball and the smaller teams almost never makes a bad pass. When they recover the ball they almost always loose it imediatelly, trough a bad pass, a bad shoot, a bad drible, etc.

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To be fair, Benfica is way overrated in FM16. They won CL in one of my saves 2 times in 3 years which is just crazy. And I'm talking about first three seasons. And I've seen them coming to semis way too often in all my saves in general.

You see what I mean. That supports what I said.

In reality that should not happen (as a Benfica fan I hope I'm wrong this year).

The way I see its not because Benfica are overrated its because they play against bigger clubs that open their play and they just counter or defend and even the AI can make that happen.

Thats just insane and should never happen against teams much better like Barcelona, Bayern, Real or even PSG. I can understand 1 or even 2 good results but winning CL its very, very unlikely.

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You see what I mean. That supports what I said.

In reality that should not happen (as a Benfica fan I hope I'm wrong this year).

The way I see its not because Benfica are overrated its because they play against bigger clubs that open their play and they just counter or defend and even the AI can make that happen.

Thats just insane and should never happen against teams much better like Barcelona, Bayern, Real or even PSG. I can understand 1 or even 2 good results but winning CL its very, very unlikely.

It doesn't really support what you said. Maybe Benfica had an easy run in the Champions League... it happens.

According to your version of reality none of the following things should happen either:

- Leicester being top of the English Premier league in March 2016 after being bottom of the Premier League in March 2015.

- Chelsea sitting 10th in the English Premier league in March 2016

- Montpellier HSC winning Ligue 1 in 2011-2012.

- Porto winning the Champions League in 2003-2004.

- Liverpool winning the Champions League in 2004-2005 (though it was amazing).

- Portsmouth winning the FA Cup in 2008.

- Wimbledon FC winning the FA Cup in 1988.

- Bradford City going on a giant killing run in the Cups in recent years (beating the likes of Wigan, Aston Villa, Arsenal and Chelsea).

And there are way more examples.

Yes, the well-financed, "bigger teams" should win most of the time.... But even IRL that doesn't always happen as shown above

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Its not about who wins or not its about the manner how things happen. How easily teams who play defensive can control the game with holding the ball and how easily they play those tiki taka passes. Many times as evora says the match will look the opposite of what should be happening on the pitch. Especially if the bigger team sets up too agresivly like playing on attacking mentality or without care about posession.

When watching gamess on full its not hard to spot the issues here. Defensive like buggy closing down being not effective, players standing too far, strange defensive behaviour. Tiki taka time wasting is the resault of these defensive ME problems. And also some attaking ones like those clearances which are picked up by forwards between 3 or 4 defenders without any of them trying to follow them. But then starting to press imidiatly after he receives the ball, instead of anticipating. Not to mention awsome one touch ball control after receiving those long passes, which Messi would be proud of. Long passes and switching flanks happen far too easily.

There are probably more things into it but those are the most obvious ones. All of them are long term. And thats a difference in such games between FM and real life. Those 10-20% posession wise..and while human manager might be awere of these issues and can adopt, AI certenly is not.

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Well as long as stuff like this brings results, the improved sitting deep and counter attacks sure can't be improved enough, and certainly not be overpowered, as claimed here. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/454790-Knap-FM16-3-442-ROCK-amp-ROLL Just take a look at those shots, how there miles between the cbs and the rest of the team. That's totally nowhere land for tons of opposing players to wreak havoc in, and absolutely zero support for the cbs. All that's needed is a ball over the top/in the channels and that last line of defense is no more. If you think that positioning isn't an issue or at the very least desperately risky, you've never watched football in your life. On FM 2012 that was actually an AI bug picked up late and barely noticed by anybody -- absolutely no holding player on occasion. That made life easier for anybody opposing such teams. Gifted goals and/or goalscoring opportunity before kick-off already. Probably no wonder it's such a long-term fan's favorite, ahem.

Might be simply indicative of the AI not really being able to recognize everbody and their momma being pushed up, plus that you can still overload defenses. Personally I'd simply switch to multiple forwards, drop deep, and hit it on the break. Tactical downloads are typically very aggressive, and they still are for FM 2016, but these and similar take the cake. Similar if you had ever played online, you'd quickly not that lots of human players would play high lines, possesion based styles by default. If counter attacking itself was that overpowered, that trend would have turned around by now, but naturally if you're successful, you won't face sides advancing enough men to have space to counter attack into, therefore counter attacking will never be a "plugnplay" one size fits all for all time download solution. Sadly they're typically picked up by people who struggle full stop, or don't want to engage as much, and then it's typically them who accuse the AI of cheating or yell broken ME whenever their opponents seemingly out of nowhere convert from nothing semi-regularly. In particular that in any one such unbalanced set-up where every player pushes on centrally eventually there's no safe back pass on, which means its forward forward shoot, inflating the shot counts of their own team too. The ever so popular 30+ vs 1 shot scenario and couldn't win. But I disgress. ;-)

Would like to see that reserves match as a pkm where they outplayed the first team. Can't see that happening, the gulf in quality is too apparent. Weaker sides evidently firstly struggle to keep the ball in areas where they're pushed, and I agree that closing down/pressing in some areas isn't as effective enough. And secondly they then find it harder to win the ball back, in parts also fueled by lesser mental attributes rubbing off on the willingness and effectiveness of closing down, ditto physical attributes.

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The problem is, Svenc, when they improve counter attacking (like they did in FM 16 compared to FM 15) it looks far too unealistic. You know the scenario, you're playing in the depths of non-league, players play as expected; poor passing, bad positioning, awful closing down decisions etc. However, as soon as the counter-attack triggers in the ME, everything seems to be overriden and those same players start making Pirlo-eseque passes across the field, wingers receiving the ball while sprinting with world class touch etc.

When the counter is over, everything is back to normal until the next counter trigger.

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However, as soon as the counter-attack triggers in the ME, everything seems to be overriden and those same players start making Pirlo-eseque passes across the field, wingers receiving the ball while sprinting with world class touch etc.

When the counter is over, everything is back to normal until the next counter trigger.

I don't play the lower leagues and honestly I don't see that happening in counter attacks only. but I don't see many counters in general (me or AI). imo there's still plenty of room for improvements here. for example switching flank long passes to full-backs happens far too easily even when playing without sufficiant width and passing quality. such passes are one of the most risky in football because when the ball gets intercepted in that area without FB cover, it's almost certain counter attack. but this interceptions happen far to rarely in FM. defensive issue in my books.

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My actually playing experience on FM 2016 is limited, but from experience, could this partially be connected to idiosyncrasies inherent to FM too?

- the optionally 3d animation library is limited. Whereas Fifa can afford to mo-cap Messi, first touches, passes, shots, bicycle kicks will tend to look the samey on any player. You can actually view it in the game's gfx sub folders by the way, they're named very tellingly

- even if the library would be more pronounced, like modeling stereotypes, such as "big and lumbering type traps the ball" or "technical player traps the ball", FM same as any football game won't ever include every single nuance, and it will still be stereotypes, whereas in real football, there's always a difference if the ball is hoofed to say Luca Toni and he tries to control it, and a dozen other players, visibly

- the attribute system increases/decreases the likelyhood of something being pulled off successfully. Thus even in the lowest leagues, you will see players hitting screamers every once in a while, but then that happens in real football too

- a counter attack is rather likely to be shown, being a highlight, as that's simply more likely to lead to a finish of some quality. Certainly much more so than the many weak attempts each side has when it's facing a team parking the bus. Therefore you additionally will tend to see only the successfully breaks depending on how you're playing, and naturally these involve successfully touches

No doubt it is the inherent positioning and stuff that makes for patterns in the play though. One curious thing about FM 2015 before the final patch for instance was if you fielded an AMC/a and a FWD/a. They both wouldn't track back and would tend to sit into space and not track back then, linking perfectly for a counter attack -- attack is interecepted, ball is cleared to the AMC who tends to be the creative type anyway and he would play a nice through ball to send the forward goalside. This happened multiple times a match in this combination and was shown in the highlights regularly. Would be interesting to hear about that from PaulC, ditto those "tactics" being successful. He watches a lot of matches as it his job, and he goes all the way, naturally. He's the main programmer.

edit: It's already starting to make for frustration too, and as unfortunate for those simply picking up and downloading, it should. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/454790-Knap-FM16-3-442-ROCK-amp-ROLL?p=10766628&viewfull=1#post10766628 Any bets accepted on the AI either lining up from the start or eventually switching to multiple forwards during the game?

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It isn't just you.

I've seen that crap in this ME in my favor too. It's very unrealistic that a smaller team can draw or even defeat a bigger team 9 out of 10 games. And its not only our team that struggle with that, it happens to the AI teams too.

It's not reallistic at all that I can win the Champions League with Benfica in the 1st sesson with the original players + Gabriel Barbosa - Nico Gaitan. There's too much difference in reality for that to be possible, nevertheless I've done it for the 1st time in many years, and with very little effort. Beatting teams like Chelsea, PSG and Barcelona without any problems. Players like Messi, Neymar, etc. were totally eclipsed by my average players. I've just given my team more defensive instructions and voilá, they've turned in to the best players in Europe.

What drives me nuts its the other way around. When smaller teams do that to me and I cant find a way to solve that problem. In the past increasing tempo and other things almost always solve the issue, and many times a late goal would punish the defensive team, but with this ME that seems to create even bigger problems. What I see many times is that the smaller team (with crappy players, some of them rated 1/2 star fot my team) can dominate in the midfield with great passes, with closing down in the right moment, with better reaction times, with great tackling (almost no faults), etc. Someone will say that they are more motivated, and I would agree, but that should not be enough to balance the game or even put it in their favor.

The players should not change so much in their performances just because they are more motivated or are playing more defensively. That's what I think its unrealistic with this ME.

You've obviously never seen the English FA cup!

Every year big teams are knocked out by lower division rivals. Couple of years back, Bradford went pretty far into the cup run and I believe they were in League 2 at the time.

I do however understand where you are coming from - watching a game and seeing a league 2 team pass around like Barcelona. Happens all the time when I watch in 3D

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  • 2 weeks later...
You've obviously never seen the English FA cup!

Every year big teams are knocked out by lower division rivals. Couple of years back, Bradford went pretty far into the cup run and I believe they were in League 2 at the time.

I do however understand where you are coming from - watching a game and seeing a league 2 team pass around like Barcelona. Happens all the time when I watch in 3D

My thinking is that in football there will be always unlikely results. And thats the beauty of it. I dont have any problem with some results that in reality would be a "surprise".

If a team has fast players and is used to play on counter them its perfectly normal that it could win against bigger teams more frequently. Even make a run of 4 or 5 games in a row winning that way.

What I see in this ME and the OP too, is that if they take a lead and decide to retain possession is very dificult for the other team to fight that. They play a perfect tiki-taka that would make proud Guardiola, even with players useless for the better team. The favorite team tries to close down more but what happens is more space to pass and/or more faults. Endless time wasted with almost no yellow cards against. And many mistakes in front of goal if they manage to recover the ball.

I watch my games in 2D and the transition from a counter style to a possession style and vice-versa seems almost always perfect. Too perfect in my opinion. Specially in a smaller team. It seems they always know if its time to recieve a small pass on the feet or its time to explore the space behind the defense.

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I can understand the frustration with this sort of thing. In my experience, if my tactic works in a match, it results in one touch passing, moving the ball smartly, regardless of tempo or whether I've selected direct or short passing. Conversely, if my tactic isn't suitable for the match I'm playing, the opposition suddenly play really good football, calm tiki taka style passing and incisive counters, regardless of their level of quality.

If you have a tactic that just isn't working for whatever reason, it's represented in the ME by your players making horrible decisions, under-hitting passes, defending like morons, etc. It's one area of the game that I think really needs some work, because it's not obvious why it's not working, just obvious that it isn't. Top league level players shouldn't suddenly be playing like Conference level players, but that's what it looks like.

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I can understand the frustration with this sort of thing. In my experience, if my tactic works in a match, it results in one touch passing, moving the ball smartly, regardless of tempo or whether I've selected direct or short passing. Conversely, if my tactic isn't suitable for the match I'm playing, the opposition suddenly play really good football, calm tiki taka style passing and incisive counters, regardless of their level of quality.

If you have a tactic that just isn't working for whatever reason, it's represented in the ME by your players making horrible decisions, under-hitting passes, defending like morons, etc. It's one area of the game that I think really needs some work, because it's not obvious why it's not working, just obvious that it isn't. Top league level players shouldn't suddenly be playing like Conference level players, but that's what it looks like.

I agree with this a lot. Smart observation. Similarly if your tactic isn't spot on look to conceding either an early goal or a goal from set pieces even though you may be set up fine at set pieces. It is just a nod to the match engine that your tactic isn't right and that's how it plays out. I think its called coding.

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Thanks 'tubbycrabs', you've described exactly what I was trying to convey earlier in this thread. I take it people believed me about my reserves beating my first team in a first pre-season friendly, as what would be the point of me making this up? Also losing to a weaker team isn't the point of this thread as this happens in real life often, as people have pointed out. It's how this is portrayed that was the point at the start of this thread. The fact my reserves where instructed to play the same tactics and yet outplayed the first team is still unsolvable it seems, unless you think along similar lines as 'tubbycrabs'.

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I found the 'dribble less' TI does quite a bit to help create a quick passing philosophy.

At the end of the day the passing options have to be there for the player on the ball, but at least with this TI selected, the players first move is to look for the pass rather than retain the ball to their feet.

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i could play an effective, quick , short passes playstyle near opposition's penalty box using an Attacking mentality n 4-4-2 formation when managing southport from vanarama league. One of Moderators here has built his team from literaly a small club into a giant one unbeatable for hundred games in a row. There are so many things this man n other ppl have shared for us to learn, tbh. U see even when someone like Rafael Benitez, once was a Champions League winner, took the job at Real Madrid, he couldnt do mutch. Even Real Madrid last night was beaten 0-2 by Wolfsburg few days after they won El Classico. Football is both easy n difficult. The most successful men usually are those who made far more mistakes than the rest of us. Learn from your mistake, approach the game not with "i know everything" kind of mindset, n always learning. Win or lose that's football for u :applause:

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Also losing to a weaker team isn't the point of this thread as this happens in real life often, as people have pointed out. It's how this is portrayed that was the point at the start of this thread. The fact my reserves where instructed to play the same tactics and yet outplayed the first team is still unsolvable it seems, unless you think along similar lines as 'tubbycrabs'.

I'd still like to see that reserves match. Come on it's but a few kilobytes. Due to the huge default gap in quality, outside of serious fitness concerns I can't see that happening, safe for risky specific marking duties causing a defensive shape to disintegrate. There is/was an issue with closing down deep, which meant weak teams dawdle on the ball deep in their half. Attack is intercepted/finished off, keeper collects it, plays it to a defender nearby who plays it to the DM, who plays it sideways to the next guy, etc. etc. I was frustrated that too when the public demo hit initially, first match in season prep with an EPL team playing an amateur side, whilst winning with like 6, 7 goals they "amassed" 50%+ possession by this, even making more passes, but that's hardly outplaying. That is simple Maths, if my spells of possession, pushing reasonably towards goal turned the ball over in X number of passes on average, and theirs were always x+all those sideways passes they could collect due to closing down ME issues, then at the end, they collect more passes which shows in the stats. However they hardly pushed for a goal, and keeping the ball deep is always easier than high up the pitch where they would have been easily dispossessed. Sort of like this, back then:

J6nVVDs.jpg

Z0taOYK.jpg

The ME doesn't arbitrarily try to "represent" something, it's a second by second sequential sim, which keeps track of player (or 2d dots) movement with/without the ball plus the ball getting kicked as you see it, technically for you no different than any other video game of footie, expect that you're not playing yourself. Don't overcomplicate or try to think in such abstracts. 100% not how it works. Upload that match, please. At the best you've dugged up something that needs adressing, at "worst" people could tell you something you might be missing. :-)

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I agree with this a lot. Smart observation. Similarly if your tactic isn't spot on look to conceding either an early goal or a goal from set pieces even though you may be set up fine at set pieces. It is just a nod to the match engine that your tactic isn't right and that's how it plays out. I think its called coding.

This is total rubbish. There isn't a setting in the match engine that decides if a tactic is 'good' or 'bad' and flicks a switch that makes you score/concede a goal. There is no such thing as a 'good' or 'bad' tactic (unless you think that the downloadable tactics deliberately designed to exploit weaknesses in the ME are good). Logical or illogical, or realistic or unrealistic yes, but logical tactics can produce bad football and bad results and illogical tactics can produce good football and good results. The game is almost infinitely complex piece of software simulating an infinitely complex sport, recalculating events multiple times a second based on hundreds of different factors.

To reduce your thinking to whether the ME likes your tactic or not is missing the point of the game, makes you a worse player and most importantly reduces your enjoyment of it and the satisfaction you can get out of it.

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Bit harshly put. :D But it's worth stretching this too. This dates back to slider tactics of yesteryore already, where bad myth had it that if you would happen to hit upon the right combo of sliderisms, the team would play magic, whilst but deviating by adjusting slightly notches would cause everything to crumble apart... It's myth fueled by perception bias, that's not opinion, but factual. On top of there being hidden traits (consistency) and man management that can additionally rub off on individual performance, I'd argue the most basic/severe actually tactical issues are mostly all about very basic positioning stuff goverend by roles/duty (attack duty typically encouraged to gets further forward and vice versa for defend) and ppms, traits that players have that can override this to a degree. This goes both ways, so whilst there may actually be a slightly bit of a truth to it that some technical attributes aren't weighted into some things enough. Same that there are issues with defending wide areas for instance currently, but a side suddenly playing like Barcelona isn't that, it's an AI going attack/overload increasing the attack duties, which overloads areas. Conversely to a previous set-up this can make things far easier to keep the ball in your half and to overload your defense. This would typically happen either late or upon conceding, depends on the manager and opponent though (you can bet your money that if you ever take the lead at Camp Nou or something, the AI will increase its risk some immediately, and fully visibly).

This isn't some arbitrary way of telling you to change something or just stuff showing up that is meant to represent whatever, that's the stuff that "happens", including all of that positioning, second by second. There are a lot of areas where FM is off of football, but you could react to that in several logical ways, i.e. keeping your full back at check if he's constantly creamed and caught out of position by fast forwards/wingers, etc. Never is a guarantee, and there's no on/off buttons indeed. It's dealing in trade-offs and probabilities at best. With reserves though, we're dealing with physically, mentally and technically inferior players across the shop, so here's really hoping for a pkm download eventually. From experience, the reserve manager will see himself as this much of an underdog, he doesn't even try to outplay anyone, defending minute 1-90 to not concede as much, which includes the aforementioned defend duty all over the shop, defending deep, only really trying to score from set-pieces and counter attacks. If you are shielded against those (i.e. not pushing a bare minimum of 7 players up into the area, which like 9 out of 10 tactical downloads do minute 1-90 match day 1-38 by default), job done most of the time. If you do what an increasingly and alarmingly amount of downloads do, fielding no defend duty/hold position player whatsoever, all it would take even for weak opponents to score some is for their manager to prefer (as per data given to him) and eventually field multiple forwards.

However, I've seen some crazy things in AI vs AI matches too, including warped tactical decision making that would turn matches into end to end stuff. There is no magic setting which would outright deny any player quality, as tactics is but tactics (and conversely to another bad myth, the AI also doesn't "crack" anything, else the aforementioned downloads would suffer some more than they do, see above -- same about the idea of there being and the AI being aware of several special "perfect" combinations, granting it a supposedly inherent advantage in that area). So, hoping. :-)

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This is total rubbish. There isn't a setting in the match engine that decides if a tactic is 'good' or 'bad' and flicks a switch that makes you score/concede a goal. There is no such thing as a 'good' or 'bad' tactic (unless you think that the downloadable tactics deliberately designed to exploit weaknesses in the ME are good). Logical or illogical, or realistic or unrealistic yes, but logical tactics can produce bad football and bad results and illogical tactics can produce good football and good results. The game is almost infinitely complex piece of software simulating an infinitely complex sport, recalculating events multiple times a second based on hundreds of different factors.

To reduce your thinking to whether the ME likes your tactic or not is missing the point of the game, makes you a worse player and most importantly reduces your enjoyment of it and the satisfaction you can get out of it.

So you are confident that the result isn't pre determined by the AI the same as say an instant result? Interesting and perhaps 100% correct. But dealing in absolutes and believing in the complexity of the match engine and yet not someone I assume that codes the game...just maybe you jump in a tad and also slightly overrate the software. I certainly didn't mention the word 'liking' either. Just wanted to put that out there but no flaming or disrespect intended.

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So you are confident that the result isn't pre determined by the AI the same as say an instant result? Interesting and perhaps 100% correct. But dealing in absolutes and believing in the complexity of the match engine and yet not someone I assume that codes the game...just maybe you jump in a tad and also slightly overrate the software. I certainly didn't mention the word 'liking' either. Just wanted to put that out there but no flaming or disrespect intended.

The result isnt pre determined by the ME (and I deliberately say ME and not the AI, because the AI does not calculate the game). He, and Svenc are actually right for what it's worth.

Agreed Svenc, and I'd like to see improvements in the TC in showing the user positioning and transitions based on the roles and duties they would use. But outside of that, OP would do well to heed the points you've made.

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So you are confident that the result isn't pre determined by the AI the same as say an instant result? Interesting and perhaps 100% correct. But dealing in absolutes and believing in the complexity of the match engine and yet not someone I assume that codes the game...just maybe you jump in a tad and also slightly overrate the software. I certainly didn't mention the word 'liking' either. Just wanted to put that out there but no flaming or disrespect intended.

Nothing is pre determined.

Play a game lets say 5-6 times, change a few personnel, tweak tactics, team talks etc, and watch 5-6 different results and scores pan out, how can it be pre determined when that happens. This is what makes FM the game it is, all the little subtle tweaks and input can indeed change results, unless the tactic you use is made to exploit the ME.

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So you are confident that the result isn't pre determined by the AI the same as say an instant result? Interesting and perhaps 100% correct. But dealing in absolutes and believing in the complexity of the match engine and yet not someone I assume that codes the game...just maybe you jump in a tad and also slightly overrate the software. I certainly didn't mention the word 'liking' either. Just wanted to put that out there but no flaming or disrespect intended.

i'd like to say the result is pre determined by yourself, not the AI. AI only executes any data being sent to it. Your tactic, along with your players attributes, their condition, their morale, their PPM, their Cohesion, their relationship with each other, n the same things from your opposition's team are all data that will eventually be calculated by the AI to determine the result. N dont forget that there are many data considered as chance-based such like a player's consistency n important matches attributes. Instant result itself isnt pre-determined. it is just about speeding up the process, so u dont need to watch the match itself directly since Ai is thinking much faster than us. So fast that makes u think it is pre-determine the result of matches.

I know programming by self-learning. I can say I've seen the sea of codes inside the ME albeit not too deep to prevent myself from cheating the game in a way that most most ppl can't do. The proof is that I know the deleted Striker Left (SL, NOT STCL) and Striker Right (SR, NOT STCR) Positions from previous FM edition few years ago are actually still exist inside FM16's tactical screen. Thought they're invisible. I can also tell how many clicks fairly wide Team instruction actually increase the team's width or how many clicks Higher Tempo increase the team's tempo in old slider term.

It's u who jumped into your narrow conclusion n underrated the software. I myself praises the coder for he did a good job. This is a simulation game. To do a simulation u need to collect data from the beginning of Simulation until the end of it before u know exactly what the result is. There is no pre-determined simulation thought in a sense we as human being can predict the result but not 100% guaranteed to be true.

The thing i like from the ME now is how a player react to every aspect of a match. Back then when managing Southampton, i gave Graziano Pele a F9 role. U know him, he is clearly a Target Man not someone with astonishing dribble. Yet I still did give him F9 role. It was a gamble tbh. Been simulating inside my head at my bathroom what role fit for both Pele n my concept. It was a quick short passing play style using Attacking Mentality, so TM role is out of question. Tried DLF but it didnt make me satisfied. What i was afraid of at first, that Pele will try to run with ball n make my side losing possession because he is a horrible dribbler. N a structured teamj shape gave additional fear to me that it would really happen. We are all know F9 loves to run with ball. But then I decided to keep going n see the result before tweaking it again. What happened is, Pele seems to know he isnt good at dribbling. He didnt run with ball too often, only run when it's safe n logically acceptable decision. What he did is delivering quick flick-through passes to both IFs who've been running past opposition's defensive line, just as planned. Even with little creative freedom, he didnt do what a F9 usually do. He was playing his own version of False 9, optimizing his best attributes. This means my tactic is working, there were teammates available for through passes too so instead of run with ball by himself trying to be Messi, he did what he could at the limit of his capability. He was not forced to run with ball often like what his role described. Player attributes are important for a style of play. It defines a player's type.

My point is, in case the first team is losing against its reserve team albeit using the same tactic, it could be because their attributes. The Reserve team approached the tactic in a different way. Your fault is unable to notice that A tactic can be different in practice depends on the players. N i'll explain why

this is my current Tactical Template of my Leeds side. Abit inspired by both atletico n Leicester this season. Using an Attacking Mentality setting regardless whoever the opposition is, n a Highly Structured/Structured Team shape.

0cBxO3U.png

the Flat 4 at defense are all instructed to close down much less. My Midfielders and both strikers are the ones who aggressively close down opposition. I know my players. Both CBs dont have enough acceleration n agility to keep up with pacey strikers. Their aggression attribute is also not too high but they both have good positioning, teamwork, n decent concentration. This tactic is working for me, because I know exactly what my players good at n what they're bad at, Both Fullbacks are also instructed to close down much less, so they wont chase someone at the central area, leaving the flanks vacant. This aspect of my plan is further "enhanced" with both FBs not having a high aggression, work rate, n determination attributes too. so in a way, i give a solution to nullify their weaknesses n at the same time using their weaknesses as a strength to deal with opposition's attack. All 4 of them are rarely being caught out of position. Quite a solid defense for my side even Mourinho who has a grudge towards me was praising my team for gave his side a tough match that ended up 0-0 at stamford bridge.

So, lets say, what happens if all of my 4 defenders possessed high aggression, determination, acceleration, workrate n agility, but barely enough concentration n decision? how if 1, or 2, or 3 of them have mark tighter or dive into tackle PPMs? This tactic wont work like what it intended to be. They will try to close down opposition early, throw tackles at them oftenly because of their attributes n PPM. N it means a disaster since this flat 4 is the last shield before the GK.

So in case I have to play against my reserve team with their overall aggression, determination, n workrate are low. N both team are using this same tactic, their chance to win is actually increased. Well depends on how much my first team's players not matching for the tactic, also depends on how much the overall ability difference between the first team n the reserve team but assuming my reserve team is not that bad compared to my first team, they do get more chance to win against my first team. Their Flat 4 Defense wont chasing opposition too far from their defensive position, resulting on my first team unable to do better. At the other side, the reserve team will find it easy to break through my flat 4 defense since it is easy to lure one or more of them out of position. n That is, just the defense part. how about both midfield and forward? are their attributes matching with the style of play?

Not to mention, those Chance-based data like a player's consistency is also included in calculation. It can be the first team morale, or any data. So u say it is not possible for a first team to lose against its reserve team albeit both of them are using the same tactic? think again mate.

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Not really sure what I've said in this thread that has people so rattled that I keep being quoted, told I'm rubbish, narrow minded, can't believe it and wide eyed emoticons. Reading back I think I've said that if your tactic is not right you can be punished by a tendency to concede early goals and then a post intended more than anything else to defend myself from being called rubbish. I'm not saying the game is pre determined, I'm saying I don't know how it works to be as bold to talk in complete absolutes about it, black and white. And I've dared suggest that just maybe the ME / AI whichever (perhaps both) isn't perfect and all smart. But hey feel free to all jump in and quote me up. :D

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4-1-1-3-1

Goalkeeper

Fullbacks (support)

Central Defenders (defend)

Ball wining midfielder (defend)

Box to box midfielder

Winger (support)

Advanced playmaker (support)

Inside forward (support)

Complete forward (support)

Standard and flexible Much higher tempo Balanced Play out of defence work ball into box Run less more expressive

Some of your TI's intrigue me, given the high tempo you are playing. would love to see a PKM. Interested to see how much off the ball movement you are seeing. The ability to move off the ball into pockets of space is vital for one touch football.

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Did and yet didn't at the same time. Still at least my previous post drew a line under everything...no wait, lets look at the evidence from every conceivable angle ;)

Well because your words were quite contradict n the "kind of negative" part is clearly more noticeable. It's similiar with the question "perhaps it is true that God is exist, but why u believe in something with no clear evidence that it is really exist"

N u were also indicating that we or someone, aren't the one who wrote the codes n we just blindly believing the ME. It is not an appropriate statement IMHO

But dealing in absolutes and believing in the complexity of the match engine and yet not someone I assume that codes the game...just maybe you jump in a tad and also slightly overrate the software. I certainly didn't mention the word 'liking' either. Just wanted to put that out there but no flaming or disrespect intended.

thought Im not the one who wrote the codes I've seen inside the codes, I know what kind of method is being used to run the clock in a match, I know roughly how each player is being monitored on a match. What kind of values are being used for this n that n there. It's not something I usually talk about, but ppl like u wont be satisfied without any solid confirmation, or worse, wont change your wrong conclusion even though someone credible (like the code himself, not me ofc) gave u a solid proof. Each match is not pre-determined. However it can be quasi pre-determined in a way, by us the one who play the game. If u know what to do, it increase your winning chance. The example is Blackjack. It is a card game that mostly depends on luck, but if someone is far better than the rest, he/she can win continuosly. U n those who keep complaining that matches are all pre-determined aren't bad at playing FM. Just not good yet n will be good eventually by both learning n experiencing tons of matches. Be patience

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Well because your words were quite contradict n the "kind of negative" part is clearly more noticeable. It's similiar with the question "perhaps it is true that God is exist, but why u believe in something with no clear evidence that it is really exist"

N u were also indicating that we or someone, aren't the one who wrote the codes n we just blindly believing the ME. It is not an appropriate statement IMHO

But why contradict myself at all? Think about it. I wouldn't have added or left that part in for no reason but thanks for the repeated post to effectively underline your earlier entry. Anyway as Mad Sheep suggests, please move on, we were all bored days ago.

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Well because your words were quite contradict n the "kind of negative" part is clearly more noticeable. It's similiar with the question "perhaps it is true that God is exist, but why u believe in something with no clear evidence that it is really exist"

N u were also indicating that we or someone, aren't the one who wrote the codes n we just blindly believing the ME. It is not an appropriate statement IMHO

thought Im not the one who wrote the codes I've seen inside the codes, I know what kind of method is being used to run the clock in a match, I know roughly how each player is being monitored on a match. What kind of values are being used for this n that n there. It's not something I usually talk about, but ppl like u wont be satisfied without any solid confirmation, or worse, wont change your wrong conclusion even though someone credible (like the code himself, not me ofc) gave u a solid proof. Each match is not pre-determined. However it can be quasi pre-determined in a way, by us the one who play the game. If u know what to do, it increase your winning chance. The example is Blackjack. It is a card game that mostly depends on luck, but if someone is far better than the rest, he/she can win continuosly. U n those who keep complaining that matches are all pre-determined aren't bad at playing FM. Just not good yet n will be good eventually by both learning n experiencing tons of matches. Be patience

You don't know the code at all or its values and even if you did, then you've broke the terms and condition of your EULA which is a criminal matter and you'll be prosecuted by SEGA. You always say I know the code blah blah yet I've seen you post lots of incorrect stuff on these forums in the past few months, which wouldn't happen if you really knew. Either way there is no way you'd know how the code worked unless you'd got into somehow which isn't permitted seeing as you've never had a job or been contacted by SI. So I suggest you leave this now and not mention it again on these forums or it'll be a ban whether it's a lie or not and your details will be passed on to legal.

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