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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2016 16.3.0 Feedback Thread

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The quoted figure is 33%, with the other 7% coming from set-piece crosses.

Much lower than that. The range for the set of statistics I can find is 14.52% - 24.49%. It's something like 1 out of every 240 crosses (including blocked outside the area) result in a goal. Set piece yield is much higher.

I think the original table is quoted in Kuper and Szimanskyi's "Soccernomics" (an excellent read) and I think the actual data is from Opta.

https://elitesportconsulting.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/does-crossing-work-in-football/

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I've just opened up the editor to look at the database.

From what I can tell, Adam Johnson seems to have been entirely removed.

Can SI clarify this? If so, I do very much think this is the correct decision.

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Much lower than that. The range for the set of statistics I can find is 14.52% - 24.49%. It's something like 1 out of every 240 crosses (including blocked outside the area) result in a goal. Set piece yield is much higher.

I think the original table is quoted in Kuper and Szimanskyi's "Soccernomics" (an excellent read) and I think the actual data is from Opta.

https://elitesportconsulting.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/does-crossing-work-in-football/

The data is old though.

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Full back ratings being high IMO are purely and simply down to the fact that in this years game goals are scored from crosses and a lot of the time those crosses come from full backs so therefore it is an assist. Goals and assists whip a players match rating well up even if the player does nothing for the rest of the 90 minutes but that's how it's been in FM for years tbh. That's possibly why attention is drawn more towards crosses because they compared to say through balls they are IMO a more successful source of assist. So I don't think crossing is necessarily overpowered, I actually think that goals from other areas are "under powered" thus once again focusing on crossing.

Ratings really need to be improved in future though. I had a game when Payet was on 6.9 at half time. One second half assist and a tap in and at full time he was on 9.5 even though looking at the highlights he was giving the ball away too much and not really contributing.

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The data is old though.

Whilst that is true I would be extremely surprised if it hit anywhere near 30% on average, talking of nearly a 50% increase over a few years. Also depends on how the data is interpreted, is a crossing attempt immediately closed down counted? What about deeper diagonal balls, is that simply a lump into a box or a cross?

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Okay, as you’re aware the staff here at SI read the forums so clearly we’re aware that some users are experiencing some issues with the way that crosses are defended. From the numbers we’ve had feeding back to us this only seems to affect a relatively small number players and largely depends on those player's tactics. Saying that, we did take a long, hard look at it and ultimately decided that given potential knock-ons and the major impact it would have had on user’s tactics that it wasn’t something we could tweak without unbalancing the match engine and worsening the user’s playing experience.

As anyone who’s played FM for a while knows, we’re constantly striving to make the match engine a 100 per cent perfect simulation of real football. While we’re still some way away from achieving this goal, we do feel that we’re getting closer and closer and this progress is helped enormously by the constructive feedback that we get here on the forums. We’re happy with the match engine which is included in version 16.3.0 and we’ve only been able to get up to this point thanks to everyone who has been involved in the game’s development, be it SI staff members, beta testers or those of you posting here on the forums.

Having spoken at length about this with the match team, there is some good news to report in that the work the team have done in trying to address this issue long-term has led to some other major improvements which, once they’re fully implemented, will make any future versions of the match engine better for everyone.

All I would add to that is that you should give the new update a thorough play-through and let us know what you think when you’ve had a chance to put it through its paces. That's what this thread is here for.

Many thanks.

Now that's a response i like! a bit more detailed and comprehensible. guys keep up posting useful feedback and SI please strive for greatness!!!

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Whilst that is true I would be extremely surprised if it hit anywhere near 30% on average, talking of nearly a 50% increase over a few years. Also depends on how the data is interpreted, is a crossing attempt immediately closed down counted? What about deeper diagonal balls, is that simply a lump into a box or a cross?

I hope you're sitting down.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/444642-Conceding-Goals-to-Crosses?p=10610526&viewfull=1#post10610526

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Ha, I was reading that completely wrong and looking at cross completion rate in terms of finding a team-mate. This is enough internetting for me, I am off to bed!

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OK, from the off I want to make it clear that due to circumstances beyond my control I have not been able to buy FM16 this year, so purely based on the DEMO, have the winter updates been included? Mine appears to be fm16.3 but with no transfer updates, does this only happen cos its the demo?

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Now that's a response i like! a bit more detailed and comprehensible. guys keep up posting useful feedback and SI please strive for greatness!!!

I agree 100% a bit of honesty never goes amiss

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40% is the real-life figure that's often quoted, although I suspect the actual figure is lower than that. It's probably more like 30-35%.
The quoted figure is 33%, with the other 7% coming from set-piece crosses.

The only figures I could find related to Euro 2012.

Crosses were the main way to score a goal with 43.7% of all goals during the tournament coming from a cross.

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OK, from the off I want to make it clear that due to circumstances beyond my control I have not been able to buy FM16 this year, so purely based on the DEMO, have the winter updates been included? Mine appears to be fm16.3 but with no transfer updates, does this only happen cos its the demo?

As per the opening post in this thread, yes the transfers are in. Not sure about the demo though.

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I've just opened up the editor to look at the database.

From what I can tell, Adam Johnson seems to have been entirely removed.

Can SI clarify this? If so, I do very much think this is the correct decision.

On the DEMO he is still in the game....

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Here's my feedback or observations:

First, I see FM 16 as the best version overall SI produced till now. There's however some issues that many was expecting some of them could be addressed in 16.3 but unfortunately not happened.

  1. Crosses are still overpowered for me and the AI. Full Backs get unusually high number of assists. Reasons are maybe bad blocking on the ball crosser, lack of collision detection inside penalty area, too accurate timing and 1st touch of attackers of crosses, bad reaction of defenders inside the box to intercept or clear the crosses.
  2. Too much key passes, and this results in losing its importance as a stat compared to real life. Plus it affects player ratings.
  3. AI managers hardly rotate their squads. You can find detailed feedback there:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/445455-No-squad-rotation-in-AI-teams

4. lack of cards in the lower leagues.

I see how developing football match engine is complicated and needs much testing.

Good luck to SI in future Updates and versions!

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As per the opening post in this thread, yes the transfers are in. Not sure about the demo though.

Does not look like the DEMO has an update, which is strange as it said it was 16.3 and I could not reboot it until I updated. Also the players seem to be the attributes and Adam Johnson is in it. Seems odd that these could not be updated, particularly as he is in it as well

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Does not look like the DEMO has an update, which is strange as it said it was 16.3 and I could not reboot it until I updated. Also the players seem to be the attributes and Adam Johnson is in it. Seems odd that these could not be updated, particularly as he is in it as well

A different database wouldn't affect your experience of trying the game out. It's probably to keep the size down as well.

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Does not look like the DEMO has an update, which is strange as it said it was 16.3 and I could not reboot it until I updated. Also the players seem to be the attributes and Adam Johnson is in it. Seems odd that these could not be updated, particularly as he is in it as well

Probably a simple oversight and good that you spotted it and flagged it up - hopefully SI can change this?

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To anyone who has had problems with crosses - I'm also one of those who felt that crosses were a bit overpowered in some tactical configurations and I spent ages perfecting a tactic which would limit opposition crosses and at the same time give my crosses the best chance. I succeeded (or at least as much as I'm able to :)) so I had a tactic where 75% of my goals came from crosses. It was not realistic but gave me great joy.

After new patch my tactic has completely broken :D. I have played around 10 games and am scoring almost nothing (and none not from crosses). So although I myself have to start all over again with my tactic and team building, people who are complaining that nothing has been done should first try the patch. Because believe me - change is huge and (from an objective point of view) much improved on crosses front.

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It really isn't, you are using two aggressive forward thinking roles down each wing and then complaining when they are your primary area for assists and a cause for conceding.

You are usually a fairly intelligent user AM but on this occasion you are really missing the point. Its fairly simply if you overload the flanks you would be expecting them to be your main source of goals, if you empty the flanks in defence then it shouldn't be a surprise that you concede from those areas.

I've used several balanced tactics on FM16 all with a mix of duties & roles (Including exploit flanks & look for overlap where appropriate) and on no occasion have I seen crossing to the level that users in here are claiming.

In really simple terms its like you sticking your hand in a fire & then complaining that its hot.

I have never used a WBa + Wa or any other "aggressive" combo, where on earth are you even taking that from? In most of my tactics an attacking full back overlaps a wide player tucking inside (WPs/a, WMs w cut inside/sit narrower) plus an attacking winger on the other flank with a FB on defend or support behind him. This results in a plethora of tap ins for the attacking winger on the far post. It's a ME weakness, the full back isn't closed down nor is the far post adequately defended.

Never once have I said anything about goals conceded, although any AI team employing a similar pattern WILL score the same goals at least against other AI teams even if you personally manage to avert it.

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Probably a simple oversight and good that you spotted it and flagged it up - hopefully SI can change this?

Based on what HUNT3R has said looks like it is correct. Oh well.

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Based on what HUNT3R has said looks like it is correct. Oh well.

As I said initially, I'm not sure if it should be in the demo. If you don't see an official reply to your post, it's worth asking in the bugs forum. It could be an oversight as well.

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I think guys giving a bad feedback are overreacting a little bit. I don't remember any FM that was perfect and saying the truth I doubt the software and the technology in our hands today could allow to create the game we all want, at least in short terms.

I agree there's a problem with crosses. I'm suffering and also taking advantage from them. Playing again and again I learnt how to deal with them, and minimize their impact. I'm not a master at tactics at all, so I think if I did that, all of you can too.

Aside from this, defensively teams are playing much better than ever, I can bet a lot of you struggles to break a solid team playing contain or defensive. Offensively, I honestly say, and I'm sure a lot of you agree on this, I see moves that make me jump from my chair (with the right tactic of course!).

I don't really think SI refused to acknowledge all the issues reported both externally and internally. This is not the way a company like SI works, and generally not a way any company should work. But putting the pros and cons over a balance, they made a choice and that's it. If I sell a product I try all I can do to make this product the best. If I can't, it's because I can't, not because I don't want to.

I'm not a developer but I can understand how complex coding is. This crossing issue... it's not only "ok, let's make crosses less effective". It involves players, attributes, positioning, ball physics, timing, reaction, power of the kick, height of the ball... and probably even more stuff. Now translate all those words into lines and lines of code. Once you did that, try to manage things so that everything works perfectly. I don't think it's easy, and probably it requires more time than we all think.

I'm a bit disappointed too, but at the end of the day I also say that the game is pretty enjoyable according to me, even if probably my keyboard disagree on that :D In my opinion you all are giving way too much importance to a problem that is surely existing, but it's not as bad as you're depicting it.

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As I said initially, I'm not sure if it should be in the demo. If you don't see an official reply to your post, it's worth asking in the bugs forum. It could be an oversight as well.

The demo data will remain the original data when the game first released. Thanks for those of you who raised this originally.

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Wow, this is disappointing. Waited all this time expecting ME updates and nothing. Fair enough that future versions of the game will be better, but that story is getting old.

I didn't touch FM15 because the final ME produced a ridiculous amount of shots and goals (often 45+, AI vs. AI). Excited to move on from two plus years on FM14, I bought FM16 just to be consistently let down by an unrealistic, exploitable ME for what, six months now? I was hoping after two full years of work SI could produce a stable ME without any major exploits but here we are. Why should I trust FM17 to be playable out of the box? It's never seems to be the case

Bare in mind, the game is still good and I realize this stuff isn't easy. It does suck for the hardcore fans who pay close attention, though. Looks like another year on FM14 for me, which I do still love...

edit - this sounds a bit harsh reading it back. I love this series and don't want to come across like it's "UNPLAYABLE!!!" and we should get our money back. I just wish the biggest exploit, which is well documented, was touched. I have a hard time feeling submersed in the game knowing there's ways to exploit the AI. Despite the hyperbole in this thread, I think we can all acknowledge the crossing/goal variety/ratings to be out of whack.

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Looks like contract offers for the player were not improved or touched upon for this patch, despite bug reports being posted.

I have a contract of 125k p/w euros and 15% yearly wage rise, ive been in the club for 3 years. Board confidence is very secure, won league 3 years in a row, club is richest in the world (Man UTD). Won 1 champions league and lost one in the final.

Their next offer? 125k p/w with no bonuses/clauses as a beginning and if i want 15% yearly wage rise they drop the wage to 100k p/w.

I guess the only way to fix this would be to buy the editor and edit your wages to a more reasonable level.

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Before the changes made I was revelling in my 5-4-1 Diamond - apparently rock solid when set up to counter and when in control if there was opposition resistance changing my wing-backs from S to A and becoming more direct tended to be enough to knock the stuffing.

My first 10 games run thru with exactly the same set up and 5-4-1 Diamond counter doesn't only not function it resembles something from Benny Hill as once dependable individuals have in some way developed anger management issues, ADHD, and a complete inability to function as any sort of coherent unit.

I've noticed largely in my 5-4-1 Control mode that now I'm getting an inordenent amount of long shots and once again find myself having to tell everyone to shoot less often - this is a real shame because it's stupid to have to tell a good long range shooter that only shooting 85% of time receiving possession really isn't helping us in our controlled build up. My wing backs who used to hit the bye-line as per instructions and cut balls back or cross now run and invariably miss with there own shots on goal. My previously supreme F9 is now acting like a Advanced Striker in Attack mode showing no interest whatsoever than b-lining for goal.

My counter version had me 3-0 after the home leg of the Capitol one cup semi against Arsenal - my first game back was the return leg - the entire game - with me employing my counter tactic that leaves lots of bodies back when attacking set-piecies - was me taking an unsuccessful corner - the same guy on the near side intercepts runs up - I'm somehow overwhelmed despite leaving 4-5 bodies back and Arsenal play merry hell - they were using 4-2-3-1 - giving them lots of width which appears to be the crux here.

Really, my point is - it's like a different game from my 2 wide-men perspective - my WB's - it's no biggy, I'll go back and work this engine just like I have every other - I'm not upset about lost time or any of that nonsense - but I've found FM 2016 to be the biggest step forward - in my opinion on the tactics front since I can't remember when. I've had systems with Libero's working, back 3's back 4''s back 5's, sweepers wingers - all sorts and I've been able to get the engine to do a pretty good approximation of everything I've tried - I have hundreds of formations weird wonderful and basic all functional to one degree or other. Obviously they require correct personel and all have strengths and weaknesses.

This was in direct violation of the 4-4-1-1 control game that dominated the last god knows how many versions that I just won everything with year after year - no matter who I went or what I was up against. To my delight, a few seasons in to my normal top flight domination using said tactic - I started to lose - 4 -5 games at a time without winning - UNHEARD OF - how dare you - I lose a game a season if your lucky - gettin humped 3-0 away to Norwich outta nowhere in February - WT? Loved it - finally no more one formation wins all - all the time - I actually had to look at who I was playing and change accordingly and change I did and much fun I've been having - I mean 5-4-1 Diamond - never in my life woulda considered this before but there was no where I wouldn't go for different options - aiming for dynamism - movement, space and winning games ugly - also unheard of.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that in amongst all this criticism over this update - and I gotta say - I'm gutted - was you were - in my opinion - on exactly the right track - exciting games with varying strategies - games that started of counter - hardly a highlight for 70 mins ending with 20 mins of end to end excitement and all the variations in between.

I'm just one fan - one middle aged man who's spent half my life playing this game and who regrets not one minute of it - your closer than you've ever been and this version of FM is without question my favourite in terms of tactics & engine ever. I'm going to go away and have a long hard look at this update - see what formations fit this version of the engine and what doesn't and I'll be back with as much constructive criticism as I can muster - why having played your games for over 20 years I've never piped up until now I'm not quite sure - but I'm now on board to help make it better in future - because if there is one thing I know in life - it's Football Manager - roots firmly set in a Football Manager game for Football Fans. The more complex and fiddly it is - the better - no lite version for me - that would be against my religion - I look forward to the day I can speak to 3d players in my livingroom bit like the holodeck on the Enterprise - that's where we should be aiming - for the stars!

Oh, by the way - weakest area of the game - Training - honestly - I had a crap PC back in 2007-2008 and was forced to play FIFA Manager for a while cause the old PC just couldn't crunch FM's numbers - back then they had training way ahead of what you've got now - day by day schedules where you set out plans for the week - then depending on what you did during the week - you'd clearly see the results come the match. I broke it training technique/short passing overload - my players in the match engine played like supercharged short passing robots. Certain things paired up - like contain and tackling or short passing & build up play - set aside lots or no time for set-piecies - see the results come match day - I know u kinda sorta half assed do it now but something like but better would be superb - training should be a FUNDEMENTAL part of the make up of the game - not something thats half assed and just needs to be done - you've got Barcelona coming up - whatcha gonna train all week - contain or are you gonna press like mad and watch your players pass out as they pass round you.

Enough from me - I'll be back and I'll do my best to help.

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Yes, but never including all expansions. They put the core game on sale at 85% off just as the next expansion is out at full price.

Paradox used to be my favourite developer and I had all of their early titles. I wouldn't touch the new ones given their current business model.

No. Nearly every big Steam seasonal sale includes all DLC at the sale price, unless one has just been released. The expansions are also always included in Paradox weekend and flash sales on Steam.

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cmon, fans made winter transfer more updated then that SI

i want to play the game with good and original patchs, by your staff, that brag of being the great database in football

South americans league are a disgrace..

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Looking at the patch notes, I am wondering why it took so much longer than previous years.. Maybe the patch notes are just not up to par? Anyway, will try the new patch and curious how it feels :)

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Looking at the patch notes, I am wondering why it took so much longer than previous years.. Maybe the patch notes are just not up to par? Anyway, will try the new patch and curious how it feels :)

Why are you assuming it took so much longer? this is the about the time it comes out every year... I really don't know where people are getting this.

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cmon, fans made winter transfer more updated then that SI

i want to play the game with good and original patchs, by your staff, that brag of being the great database in football

South americans league are a disgrace..

If you wish to assist in improving data errors then there you can post in the relevant data threads.

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Why are you assuming it took so much longer? this is the about the time it comes out every year... I really don't know where people are getting this.

Maybe because of this:

16.3.0 has been announced 04-03-2016 12:55

15.3.0 has been announced 25-02-2015, 16:04

14.3.0 has been announced 28-02-2014, 13:07

13.3.0 has been announced 28-02-2013, 17:13

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AI is using very unrealistic formations in lower leagues. Too many teams are using 2 wingers and 1 striker formations. Which also might explain why fullbacks do so well currently.

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Have you checked to see if those are the respective managers preferred formations set in the database?

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Maybe because of this:

16.3.0 has been announced 04-03-2016 12:55

15.3.0 has been announced 25-02-2015, 16:04

14.3.0 has been announced 28-02-2014, 13:07

13.3.0 has been announced 28-02-2013, 17:13

OMG what a disgrace, the SI staff should be ashamed of themselves, the update is a week later than last years!!!!!!

I WANT A REFUND!!!!

Edit : Better add that I am being sarcastic. Im sure the moderators moods arent the best right now having to deal with some posts :D

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Have you checked to see if those are the respective managers preferred formations set in the database?

I havent but even if they did, Lower leagues Scottish teams play simple formations the vast majority of the time. I certainly have never seen Clyde play with wingers before.

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AI is using very unrealistic formations in lower leagues. Too many teams are using 2 wingers and 1 striker formations. Which also might explain why fullbacks do so well currently.

Maybe everyone plays 4-4-2 in Scotland, but tactics like a 4-3-3 with 2 wide players and a lone striker certainly aren't uncommon at all in lower league here in Portugal.

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OMG what a disgrace, the SI staff should be ashamed of themselves, the update is a week later than last years!!!!!!

I WANT A REFUND!!!!

Edit : Better add that I am being sarcastic. Im sure the moderators moods arent the best right now having to deal with some posts :D

You forgot the leap day, makes even later. :D

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By the way, whilst I'm quite disappointed about the crosses issue (well calling it "the crosses issue" isn't all that accurate tbh - it's more like the sum of the "full-backs-playing-for-narrow-formations-are-extremely-dangerous-and-always-unmarked" issue, the "full-backs-get-too-many-key-passes" issue, the "full-backs-run-so-far-upfield-they're-caught-offside-all-the-time issue", and the "far-post-easy-tap-ins" issue), at least I understand SI's decision on it if the ME fixes made it more unbalanced, and I'm quite happy that these other two little things got into the changelist:

TRAINING

- Improving effectiveness of Positional Training

I had a player stuck on "competent" for like 4 seasons. I finally might make him accomplished now.

TRANSFERS & CONTRACTS

- Improved manager hirings in leagues that have been activated via the editor

This is a huge one for those of us who play edited-in leagues, we had teams stuck without managers for years and years, and/or they wouldn't dare to sack them.

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OMG what a disgrace, the SI staff should be ashamed of themselves, the update is a week later than last years!!!!!!

I WANT A REFUND!!!!

Edit : Better add that I am being sarcastic. Im sure the moderators moods arent the best right now having to deal with some posts :D

Did have to read it twice with my finger hovering over the custom 'banhammer' button on my keyboard ;)

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What have SI done to 16.3.0!???? 2nd in Championship, half way through season, my first game with latest patch..........Im Blackburn :-(

2016_03_04_00002.jpg

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Like other's have mentioned, i agree there is a problem with crossing. Every year on my game, the leading assist man is a full back. My full back broke the EPL record for assists. However, I have found ways to minimize it and I also can maximize it when the opposition lines up so I'm not that upset about it not being addressed. I just adjusted as you all should.

Secondly, I found what I think/hope is a bug. You say that transfer negotiations were improved (if I remember correctly). I offered one of my CDMs for transfer at $27.5 mil which is his market value. He has 2 years left on his contract and is 25 years old. He has played well when I have played him but I have so many options so I decided to try to offload him to use the money to improve somewhere with fewer options. My club is rich, not even close to in debt and my wage budget is $200k more per week than I'm spending so there is no issue with needing any amount of money. However, when I offer that amount, the offer I get is $925k plus add ons that make the overall value up to $1.1 mil AND they want me to pay $11k/week of his wages until his contract ends in 2 years.......I was literally insulted and trying to find a way to express that to the team and wanted to tell them where to shove that offer because it is so unbelievably awful. Please tell me this isn't seen as a reasonable offer.......

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I'm wondering why someone who's actually from SI (not moderators who stick up for the game no matter what) can't actually tell us why these issues have not been fixed.

Why can't we be told they tried to fix it? This is why people are angry because it looks as though everyone's problems have just been ignored and they spent the past few months doing basic fixes to non game breaking bugs.

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I'm wondering why someone who's actually from SI (not moderators who stick up for the game no matter what) can't actually tell us why these issues have not been fixed.

Why can't we be told they tried to fix it? This is why people are angry because it looks as though everyone's problems have just been ignored and they spent the past few months doing basic fixes to non game breaking bugs.

We don't "stick up" for everything. Let's get that 100% straight.

Secondly, take the time to read the thread. Just higher up this same page:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/453728-Football-Manager-2016-16-3-0-Feedback-Thread?p=10745412&viewfull=1#post10745412

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Hidden point!???? PMSL, errrrr YES there is. You tell me minimal changes have been made to the ME, yet in my first ever game with the new patch, i get abused 0-7 at home, the stats show a very even game, im 2nd in the league and until this patch had a tactic that was working very well!

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Edit: Issues related to unlicensed leagues cannot be discussed, already deleted a few posts on the subject but will leave this one edited in the hope that others do not feel the need to ask.

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Hidden point!???? PMSL, errrrr YES there is. You tell me minimal changes have been made to the ME, yet in my first ever game with the new patch, i get abused 0-7 at home, the stats show a very even game, im 2nd in the league and until this patch had a tactic that was working very well!

That's bad luck. There were minimal changes made to the ME that was released. Check the patch notes in the OP.

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