Help me understand match engine and improve tactic.

[Wladimir]

First of all i want to apologize for my bad english skills, I never learning it, so please forgive me:)

Secondly I wanna say Hi to all users. I read this forum for years, and im really thankfull for all posts I read here.

I start this topic, cause im really frustrated playing this version. I had plenty of succes in the previous version from the CM 01/02, especially with FM14 and FM15.

But FM16 seems so hard for me.

Let's start from the small things:

I menage worst team in spanish segunda. Just got promoted from 3th divison. So I decided to change my tactic to counter/def. And the first problem occurs: I concide plenty of goals from counter attacks. Its kinda strange for me. I know its ok to loose from counters even in ultra defensive tactics, but number of goals from counter-counter/re-counter (i dont know how to call it) is way too much.

This is my basic structure:

http://s18.postimg.org/w8l0mftm0/Taktyka_Og_lne.jpg

My first problem is CB's. I have no idea how to make them behave like a CB. With no PI they close down wingers whos already covered by FB and leave big gap in center, where striker remains alone vs keeper. When I instruct them to close down less or much more less they let strikers or central midfielders went my penalty box and shot from 15m.

Other problem is FB's. Trying to play much more wide, but still my FB behave like a CD when my opponents attacks from the flanks when play in smilar tactics to mine (with only one wide player in team). No individual instructions for them, but they still cover the same striker which my CB. So the wide man is totally free and can cross to striker who usually score though hes covering by CB and FB. (so depends on my oppositions shape my FB behave like a CB or CB like a FB...)

And this is realated to my biggest nightmare - crosses.

When I watch only key highlights I can see plenty of opportunity to score from cross (gonna upload screens later). My FB(a) usually had no problems to go past hes opponent and cross. He cross 10-20 balls per game but usually this balls are so easy to clear by defenders, no matter drill or any other crosses. 2 accurate cross from 20 is excellent result. In the other hand when my oponents plays with 2 wide mans for example in 442 system their crosses are so f***** good. Situations when COVERED winger cross to my penalty area (even without dribble past my defender!) where I got 5vs1 superiority and still score is soooo frustrating. This is like joke. For 20 concended goals I got 10 from crosses, and 5 from counter. Even when I got 5 cc chances and my rivals 0 chances and 0 key highlited situations, they will just cross the ball in 80 min and score the goal.

My team playstyle is very similar to style I want to play. But only in attack phase. I feel like theres no matter I put my CB on pitch or not, they behave like a sticks.

And the other thing: Team shape! I know how it works, but influence of this is so huge!! for example: same match - Real Union vs Llagosteria (very similar teams) - same starting eleven, same instructions but different shape. First match: fluid - Llagosteria wins 2:1. Load game [by the way: only I got my whole PC crash when ctrl+tab too ofen? 5/6 times and I cant get back to FM, cant even close it, cause every mouse click in task manager to kill process get me back to crashed FM and I have to restart my whole PC] - second match: rigrid - Llagosteria wins 9:1. this is pretty huge impact huh?

I know my tactic issues from the team shape not match to counter cause I got 3 players in from of the ball, but still my defence is way too weak when I outnumbered my rivals in my own half.

What I can do to concede less from the crosses?

I really like how my F9, Treq and poacher cooperate. What I can do to dominate midfield more with my 3 CM's? (for now I play AP(S) DLP(S) and CM(D) but it seems not work well) I got good players who fit best at AP(s) and DLP(s) but they can play any other role in CM.

By "dominate" I mean control the whole game - possesion and tempo of the game. Think Guardiolas' Barcelona (I know big skills disproportion but think Paco Jimenez Rayo - they are underdogs too, but they can dominate almost every team in the league) I think its possible cause i got good technical and mental gifted players there, but I have no idea how to achieve that.

big thanks for all advices!

[Wladimir]

ok - fresh example:

This is counter from my throw-in. We are highly outnumbered and we will sure concede goal. But behave of my CB is so stupid.

Player on the ball - Delgado obviously cant score (if hes not great 1st league player) cause of assist my RB and angle to the goal and position of my goalkeeper.

But both of my CB decided to press him and leave the 3 runners behind to be covered by my left back (who exually foolish decidet to not cover any of those 3. If they stay in their positions like they should be, the only way to score would be hard pass to player from the left of the screen, cause in the middle it would be situation 3vs3 in very deep position.

How I can force my defesive lane to stay in their positions, to hold up my opponents attack? to delay the attack, to give my CM's time to back. Like Simeone Atletico defensive lane.

Its not only about my CB's. FB also tends up to cover already covered players. Its very funny to see actions like this: Enemy FB goes to my final 3rd, and pass to winger in very deep wide position. My FB goin press him very much. In the same time enemy FB is gettin covered by my CM. Winger on the ball have no option to cross so he decided to pass ball back to hes FB whos covered by my CM! And now fun begins. My brainless FB decided to press their FB! though hes already covered! so enemy FB just pass the ball back to winger, and suprise - he got space to do everyting he want to...

[Wladimir]

and this is positioning of my players with TI "stick to positions" when defending from possesion play.

My LB decided to swap positions with CM (nr 21) while CB (nr 3) thought its good idea to go help nr 21 and goes press mr. Ruper (on the ball)

Heed oppositions nr 3, 7 and 2 they all are covered by my one single player regardless this is 6vs6 situation in my box.

What happend next?

Ruper decided to switch ball to other flank. My LB Urbieta is no longer covering opposition nr 6 and let him hit the penalty box. Meanwhile my CB nr 3 and CM nr 21 covering empty space (CB nr 3 didn't even move lol)

Action ends up, Delgado cross - easy goal.

[Wladimir]

and second half:

Thanks good Lord my LB is trying to cover right player. Unfortunately he is worst than San Marino national player so he lost duel. Its ok its hard to win versus good winger.

But what the f*** both of my Center Backs doing?

by the way - my player below those two (CM(S)) free players 2 seconds ago was in better position then they are, but he decided to go press Junior(??)

Junior cross. Easy goal.

I start wondering it is any reason to keep my CB's on the pitch.

[Wladimir]

next highlight:

same thing - CB nr 4 go press player whos already marked by my RB nr 16. My second CB nr 3 as usually covering the grass.

Easy cross easy goal.

[sgevolker]

Hi Wladimir,

what for me works, is to set the fullback's with a defend duty and close down a little bit less. I don't how much you close down, because your taktik screenshot is in polish (?). Allthough look for player instructions and ppm's. And maybe remove your defender Nr. 3.

[Wladimir]

TI: stick to positions, press less.

all my 4 players (RB and 3 MC) goin to press the same player!!!. Kijera miss his cross, ball hit the crossbar.

next one:

My players finally follows the TI and press less, so Delgado had time with ball. He cross - 1vs3 opportunity in penalty box so easy goal for the striker (only one from this defenders 3 tryin to follows cross)

Next one:

All defenders are in their positions. No one make mistake. So early cross(Sengalli is just crossing right now) - easy goal.

[Wladimir]

Thanks for reply sgevolker!

In this match, I close down less.

this is my TI for this match:

And shape with translated positions:

No PI, no ppm's. My defender nr 3 is actually my best defender:lol:

Setting my FB to defend duty in this shape will leave me with no wide player at build up and attack phase (or I'm guessing wrong?) and my RB is one of my key players, and natural winger.

[newmanagergotrekt]

I got these CBs closing down insanely/FBs gave up their positions/Closing down more --> lose to through balls, closing down less --> watch them attack as well. By the way I only manage top teams in top flights so I guess I am just a little bit worse lmao

Oh yes, crosses get me everytime when I ve got 3 defenders in the box versus 1. What I noticed is that this often happens when my defenders are unsettled (like returning from closing down players) so I am not so surprised...

[Wladimir]

I never get problems with through balls. Some tweaks with width and D-lane height always works fine.

The only nightmare is this crosses, and only in setup with two wide mans.

In some point I get the idea that I just got too bad players for the league. But when I tested "Sir Golalot" tactic on holiday, my team finished as 3rd. I know its just like a "diablo" for the newest FM's so I decided to create very simple 4-1-4-1 counter with FB set to defend duty. Magically the problems disappear. My defensive lane looks very solid and didn't concede goal in 4 matches in a row, even against top team R. Oviedo. Problem with crosses is smaller even in tactics with 3CB and wide mans on MR/ML positions. But in flat 4 and narrow midfield every role i tried for DR/DL ends up the same - totally disaster. Its weird cause I didnt even noticed my team got more midfield control with 4 narrow players than with only 3.

I will wait for some more advices, and make some more tests next days, but I think my idea of 4312 and 4132 will ends up as worst tactic I ever made.

[gunnerfan]

Wladimir, one thing I noticed in looking at your formation is that none of your midfielders are particularly comfortable in their roles, nor is your attacking right FB. That's putting much of your side at a disadvantage when you come up against an opponent in which everyone is comfortable in their roles. I try not to use anyone in a role (at least in the starting 11) if the indicator is at less that 8:00. To put it in "real life" terms (which I find is very helpful in this edition of FM - and the thing that makes it so engrossing to play), if I take a player who's completely right-footed and make him my attacking left wingback, with instructions to hit early crosses into the box, he's going to be physically unable to do what I need him to do. I suspect your midfielders may be struggling with similar issues, and that will certainly impair their ability to defend and transition to attack.

[Wladimir]

Thanks for reply.

Almost all of my midfielders are youngsters with all attributes between 5-11 (excluded Jhon Arango whos at league level), so they are incomfortable in almost all role

And I have only 16 players in team, so its hard to get right players in right positions, most of the time I need to rely on their versatility.

Anyway after 2 days of testing I give up with this shape, cause I was unable to make this work. Goals from crosses come close to 65% and I just decided to change tactic.

I swap to 4141 counter and I achieve my goal - I dominate midfield very well, my players play great passing, possesion football. My team not concede stupid goals, and lost more than one goal in only 1 match of 15. Its pretty suprise, cause I expected to be one of the worst team in league but Im 2nd now, after half of the season. Usually I score only 1 goal but seems like its enough

[Wladimir]

This is my results from the moment I start using this tac:

Only PI for striker: roam more, dribble more, close down more, and more creative freedom.

My pitch is at terrible level so I guess it's not good for sort passing style. I never score from a counter attack yet, but im still patient

If you can see any thing to improve I'll be greatfull for advice.

[gunnerfan]

Yes. If you were managing a young, overmatched team in real life, you'd keep things as simple as possible and work to keep the ball away from the opposition. Same thing here.

[Wladimir]

10 wins in 16 matches and then 1 win in next 8 matches with no changes at all..

this game still suprising me.

[Rashidi]

I couldn't understand the first picture because it was in a language I don't understand. I can only guess. For your 4312 system, its important to remember that those flank areas are going to be exposed. The only way you will get your midfield screen to work is if your midfielders are on support. If they have low teamwork, workrate, bravery, anticipation, they will not cover the flanks effectively, which is why your fullbacks always step up.

Now another thing you may want to remember is that if you are playing counter...then ...by the time the ball gets near the defensive line, the fullbacks will naturally go up to cover unless those midfielders step up first. I can't tell what shape you are using as well.

What are your shape settings, and what are the attributes of the outside two midfielders and or/ the wingers in your 4141

[Wladimir]

I was hoping for your post rashidi, cause as I know 4312 was your fav setup

In this 4312 I tried 3x support role, 2xdefend+1support and 1def+2support, but in every setup flanks was still open or not covered properly. Almost all my midfielders have low attributes you have thought as important, meybe this is the main reason for totally unsuccessful result with this 4312. They all got very low bravery (4, 6, 8) low anticipation (10, 10, 12) low workrate (12, 12, 13) and good teamwork (12, 15, 16).

I give up work on this shape, cause 4141 achieve my goals (control the game) very well. I menage 50-65% possesion, my advanced playmaker performs 50-120 succesfull pass per game and my opponents have very few key highlighted opportunities to score.

This is actual shape I use right now:

My wingers attributes: workrate 10,10,7 anticipation 12,8,5 bravery 8,10,4 teamwork 9,9,15. Should I emphasize those attributes of wingers in long term squad build?

The only problem now as you can see in my post above is irregular form.

Should be a priority for me to improve my pitch condition (fatal right now) in this playstyle?

/edit: I post my tactic screenshot in english

[Wladimir]

strange form stability volume2

As I post recently after "10 wins in 16 matches and then 1 win in next 8 matches" my team was unbeaten for 8 matches in a row which brings me at 2nd place, in order to get only one point in lastest most important four matches.

After few initial very bad games played at 4312 my team finished season in 5th place (predicted 22nd), concede fewest goals in league (!). Achieve best avg possesion in league 54,24% and best successful pass rate 81%. Regardless of playoffs result it was great year. I'm worried about next season cause I didnt see any issues to improve in my tactic excepting this form stability issues. I also have only little idea how to build up my squad to fit in my tactic more.

/edit: dam, what a nice ending

[Rashidi]

If you want to use a 4312, then those attributes I referred to are important. Even with my title winning Torino side, I can't use the 4312 at home. The flanks are too exposed. I could use it, but it would require a lot of small tweaks, and I don't want to do all that. I just want to keep it simple. They play better with a 4141 or a 4411. Even when I use the 4231, the loss of one player in my side to injury can have a bad effect.

Your 4141 is very one dimensional, it attacks one way only. If I were you I would "flip-flop" the system, meaning: make one side of the pitch a FB(A)WM(S) combination and the other a FB(S)W(A) attack combination. In the middle on the side where you have the W(A) stick in the AP(A) and make the other player a MC(S). The problem with your system is the lack of movement into space.

You can afford to change that into a 4411 as well, if you remove the DM and move him into the MC(D) position beside the AP and use the extra man as an deep lying forward or even an AM(S).

You have 2 wingers going down the flanks, so you really need players to find them with the right passes. Now if your team has poor passing that would leave them isolated, so you may not see them going into dangerous areas. If you do something like what I suggest it could work. On my Torino Diaries Season 3 saves you will find me using the 4141 and the 4411 against champion league sides and even against some opposition in the serie A. I do a fair bit on "flip-flopping" this season with my systems.

The goal in any system is first: Control Flanks by setting up the screen, then find roles/duty combination that encourage exploitation of space.

[Wladimir]

thanks for the tips! I'll try all of those in new season.

You help me understand why my right winger performs way better than the left one. Left one as you said is isolated cause of my very short passing style, while right one got BMM whos follows the action, and help him.

I'll post results of changes and my conclusions soon.

[Wladimir]

ok, it takes a long time but I did a lot of tests.

I played same season 3 times. The worst result I get when i move DM to MC(D), so i give up this idea just after few matches.

Swapping FB(S)+W(A) to WM(S)+FB(A) result worse than a one dimentional 2xS(A)+FB(S) so I have to also give up this idea.

Nevertheless I don't give up to "flip-flop" system, and the best results I get by swapping left FB(S) to KWB(W) and W(A) to Wide playmaker(A). Surprisingly DLP and WP in a one line cooperate well, and brings be wonderfull results. Left midfielder(WP) and left-central midfielder(DLP) fokus a lot of attention on this side of pitch making space for BMM (left-central) and S(A) to scores goals.

2 season with this tactics brings my team to primiera division, and just stop working after that. Almost 80% of matches in PD I get more CC and chances overall, but my players just stop scores goals.

the main conclusion is clear: the tactic is related to reputation very much. I'll show it in the next post.

[Soldatino]

Hello Wladimir, I had similar struggles once I got promoted with Valladolid to the Primera. First half of the season I was suffering of other teams scoring out of nothing, while I wouldn't score even the biggest opportunities. Then I changed my tactics, or rather simplified and went to basics I should say. Now I've established myself as a mid-table team. I'd recommend trying to do the same, consider what kind of team you are (in compare to the rest of league) and play accordingly.

[Wladimir]

hello Soldatino, I did exactly the same thing!

I changed my nice counter tactic (still using when I'm satisfied in 0:0 result) to attacking/press in the middle of the season. Tac: TI:

And I went from 16th to 7th place

All thing goes very well and the next season I finished 2nd

Then nothing changes besides my reputatnion and in currently season things goes the same as in my first season in primiera division. My team can't score a goal. After first 7 matches im 19th. My team is pretty good, i'd say strong enough to finish 4-6.

So after my reputation rise again I have to change my tactic again? I will have to change my tactics every season, whenever my reputation change?

[Soldatino]

I'm not yet in your situation, so I cannot speak from my own experience. But I would expect this to happen, you were newly promoted side, then anyway not a team that would be considered to earn 2nd place, IRL others could and would underestimate you.

I don't think you need to overhaul your tactics, however you may need to do slight changes on a match by match basis. Personally I try to adapt according to the strength, reputation of the opponent + in match according to the formation, I change strategy and roles/duties.