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MontyOnTheRun

Jamie Vardy in lower leagues

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Did anyone manage Vardy 2010-2012 during his Halifax and Fleetwood rampage in the Conference North and Conference Premier? Just curious if he was rated with any kind of potential to be a Championship/Premier League player back then. Any stories/screenshots would be most welcome. What an amazing story.

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I've recently found this gem from old times on my Youtube channel.

[video=youtube;a9axUaAfu8M]

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Wow, what a difference with his current stats!

Yes, and it is highly doubtful that you could have developed that version of Vardy into what he is now. Something I hope future versions of FM will address a bit better- to have the late blooming talent.

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Dont really remember the year but in my Fleetwood save Vardy and Magno Vieira(dont know where he is now) was amazing for me.Vardy was playing in the right wing

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Yes, and it is highly doubtful that you could have developed that version of Vardy into what he is now. Something I hope future versions of FM will address a bit better- to have the late blooming talent.

While I agree.. I have no idea how they could do it, and also keep it realistic.. the very definition of late bloomer is that we, and obviously no-one in football has any idea that they could reach the levels they could..

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I've seen a few late bloomers in FM. They are hard to spot as their rise through the divisions doesn't get much, if any, coverage from the media which means we either spend ages looking through loads of players or just happen to stumble across an example.

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I think the only one i've seen that comes to mind from the game is Jack Whatmough from Pompey... seen him end up at a decent level in most of my saves.

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While I agree.. I have no idea how they could do it, and also keep it realistic.. the very definition of late bloomer is that we, and obviously no-one in football has any idea that they could reach the levels they could..

I think it might be do-able since all players have a CA and a PA, regardless of whether they have reached it, so it could be that in unusual circumstances a player could have whatever development constraints removed. Barside mentioned seeing a couple, and I had one, a goalkeeper, last version that bloomed around 28. Anyway, would be something I'd like to see more of, if possible :)

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If PA was much more difficult to divine, then it could be more liberally sprinkled around. If no one spots a high PA player then they will footle about in the lower leagues unless they get their big break.

Or maybe have a "late bloomer" attribute. If a player has this and they are at 95% of their current PA at then add 40 points to their PA - give them chances between age 25 and 28 to do this. No one knows who the late bloomers are in advance, so apply randomly with a low chance of application.

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I managed him for Stocksbridge Park Steels on FM08 I think it was, he scored plenty for me then but didn't have the stats to move up to top scorer in Prem

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While I agree.. I have no idea how they could do it, and also keep it realistic.. the very definition of late bloomer is that we, and obviously no-one in football has any idea that they could reach the levels they could..

Easy: Randomness. Theres a couple text sims that used this, for example Front Office Football. Essentially, there is x% chance that certain players get either an upgrade to ability/potential or (on the flipside) a reduction, for example linked to certain injuries or failing to play a certain amount of games over a season (or multiple seasons).

It would all be about the frequency, but if, say, 10 in 1000 players of a certain PA range get a 20 point PA bump at their 22nd birthday, it wouldn´t be outrageous.

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Easy: Randomness. Theres a couple text sims that used this, for example Front Office Football. Essentially, there is x% chance that certain players get either an upgrade to ability/potential or (on the flipside) a reduction, for example linked to certain injuries or failing to play a certain amount of games over a season (or multiple seasons).

It would all be about the frequency, but if, say, 10 in 1000 players of a certain PA range get a 20 point PA bump at their 22nd birthday, it wouldn´t be outrageous.

Which would also probably require a rework of the development module to handle that. As it is, I doubt that bump would make much difference given that a lot of players don't improve massively by that age.

Plus there's the age-old argument of whether that kind of bump was particularly realistic. In my opinion, your potential is your potential. Vardy always had this level of performance in him, he just spiked towards it later in career. It didn't change.

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All the reports of Vardy's life outside of football prior to tins season suggest that he made some changes to his lifestyle, that or this season is just a freak.

Either way both aspects are supported in FM, high PA players with a poor attitude can suddenly feet their head out of thier rear end & start to develop further or make the most of their CA.

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I think theres a general problem in fm is that players PA isnt high enough, i'd like to see players PA be higher but more difficult to reach that, players determination, ambition and professionalism should have a greater bearing on whether a player reaches his full potential, 10 years ago would have leon britton, ashley williams, jamie vardy, jermaine beckford, michael kightly, had the PA to reach the PL, none of these players were thought of highly, how many non-league or L2 players have a PA above 140? i'm not saying everyone should be getting CA to 140 to maybe at least the chance to

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I think PA should be more variable when a players form is considered. All players have a set PA, which obviously at a younger age they can reach or get close to if played regularly. I think if you have a player say between 22-28 who is playing very well regularly, their PA should be boosted in game too. I think one of the games biggest disappointments over the years is when climbing the pyramid with a small team. It would be impossible to do so while keeping a Jamie Vardy or Leon Britton type player in the team throughout the journey, as the team will always outgrow these type of players.

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Magno Viera and Jamie Vardy was the most deadly partnership in FM's lower leagues. This was when Fleetwood was in the Conference National. Vardy got 31 goals that season in real life too. I always thought Viera was better than Vardy at the time, just proves who wrong you can be

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I think PA should be more variable when a players form is considered. All players have a set PA, which obviously at a younger age they can reach or get close to if played regularly. I think if you have a player say between 22-28 who is playing very well regularly, their PA should be boosted in game too. I think one of the games biggest disappointments over the years is when climbing the pyramid with a small team. It would be impossible to do so while keeping a Jamie Vardy or Leon Britton type player in the team throughout the journey, as the team will always outgrow these type of players.

I had it happen in 15, but it was a regen fullback, popped up at the end of the first season without a club, when I'd won promotion from the Conference North. Played for me from Conference all the way up to winning the Premier League. Wasn't a great Premiership level player, but it was still awesome. Same save/season, a DC lad I loaned from Hartlepool who were League 2, joined me permanently the season after and also made it right up the ladder.

Still, incredibly rare, any real talent in non-league in game seems to be hovered up quickly by big clubs.

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If they could implement it without too many of them popping up each season i'd be all over it, Maybe have something to do with your mental stats as a manager that could help players improve etc.

I bought a player from Deeping Rangers (Regen) from the counties league level when I was in League 2! ended up leaving me in League 1 for WBA and went on to win multiple caps for England even picking up a World Cup medal along the way!

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I like the idea of late bloomer, Burak Yilmaz is a good example I would say. I mean when he first made a name, he had a lot of potential, but then he played crap for 5 years and then blossomed when he was 25.

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The best example i can give of a relatively late bloomer is paul corry for my york city team. I picked him up on a free in league 1 after he was released from sheffield wednesday when he was 24, he went on to make over 350 appearances for my team of which 84 were in the premiership. He was part of my fa cup and community shield winning team and went on to appear for the republic of Ireland 45 times and played in the European Championships, he was made their captain and inducted into their overall best eleven as well.

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All the reports of Vardy's life outside of football prior to tins season suggest that he made some changes to his lifestyle, that or this season is just a freak.

Either way both aspects are supported in FM, high PA players with a poor attitude can suddenly feet their head out of thier rear end & start to develop further or make the most of their CA.

Which would also probably require a rework of the development module to handle that. As it is, I doubt that bump would make much difference given that a lot of players don't improve massively by that age.

Plus there's the age-old argument of whether that kind of bump was particularly realistic. In my opinion, your potential is your potential. Vardy always had this level of performance in him, he just spiked towards it later in career. It didn't change.

Yes, the problem is that FM tries to guess the potential of every player in the world, at least to within a 30-point range. If that was possible the likes of James Vardy wouldn't exist because they'd be snapped up by bigger clubs much, much sooner. That's why we need some element of randomness, to compensate for the fact that researchers and scouts don't have crystal balls and there is a chance that any player in the world has far more potential than we currently realise.

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Yes, and it is highly doubtful that you could have developed that version of Vardy into what he is now. Something I hope future versions of FM will address a bit better- to have the late blooming talent.

The game does late blooming talent, it has for years. The issue is that people conflate the concept of "this player did well, but he can't in game" with "the game can't simulate such a player", when it can. Particularly with generated players you can come across Vardy type stories, which whilst rare (as they are in real life) can and do happen, and I've had quite a number myself.

The issue with someone like Vardy here though is how the database itself is produced. Personally I'd hope in the future there is more randomisation to the unknown elements about players in future versions, but how this can be done without introducing balance concerns is an interesting problem. What I'd like to see is on creation each player's PA and certain unknowable attributes (i.e. injury proneness, potential and such) are given a randomisation based on the gap between CA and the max (200) based on the estimate by the producer. This would allow for greater chance for such players to exist in the starting database, rather than them appears as an emergent effect of how the CA/PA system works with player development with regens as it currently does.

Edit:

Speaking of such stories though, my favourite was always an America regen who was a mediocre Championship striker around 25/26 years of age (was lower than that prior, having come from the American lower leagues), at around 28-29 his career just came to life, and he ended up being the World player of the year at around 31/32 with Juventus.

I've had others with a player who was playing in the Spanish lower leagues in his mid-late 20s ending up as the best defensive midfielder in the World at 33, playing there for Spain in a winning World Cup side (this was prior to Spain winning the World Cup in real life I might add) and breaking the powergrip Barcelona and Real had over Spain with... I think Sevilla.

Edit:

Also worth noting that not everything is CA/PA for how a player performs either. One of my best players on my current save, one of the best players in the Bundesliga in fact I know (thanks to my cousin stating "why did you recommend this terrible player, he only has a PA of") doesn't have a particularly high CA or PA, but his attribute balance and form over a period of time made him look like an absolute world beater.

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I think surely it has to be related to the average rating a player gets? If a manager maintains a young player playing consistently well over a period of time he should be able to have unlimited growing potential. Then injuries can be setbacks depending on severity etc. So can poor performances. So it's up to the manager to pick and choose when the right times are to play the player (i.e. have a certain level of physical stats like stamina and strength) so as to not get many injuries to begin with. It's hardly exploitable as you'd still have to develop the player like real life where you play them in some cup ties, 5-10minutes then easily winnable games as they reach a certain age. I've got players to have +7 ratings while they're 18'ish and they are always the ones to develop the most but I think the PA is still too restrictive in some cases! And injuries don't have as much of an impact (on PA, which should be divided between physical, technical, attacking, defending, etc too). /my 2c

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I think surely it has to be related to the average rating a player gets? If a manager maintains a young player playing consistently well over a period of time he should be able to have unlimited growing potential. Then injuries can be setbacks depending on severity etc. So can poor performances. So it's up to the manager to pick and choose when the right times are to play the player (i.e. have a certain level of physical stats like stamina and strength) so as to not get many injuries to begin with. It's hardly exploitable as you'd still have to develop the player like real life where you play them in some cup ties, 5-10minutes then easily winnable games as they reach a certain age. I've got players to have +7 ratings while they're 18'ish and they are always the ones to develop the most but I think the PA is still too restrictive in some cases! And injuries don't have as much of an impact (on PA, which should be divided between physical, technical, attacking, defending, etc too). /my 2c

Why should the bolded be the case when it demonstrably isn't in real life. There are countless cases of young players who played consistently and consistently well at a high level while young, and then went on to have careers that came to nothing. It wasn't always by injuries or attitude either, sometimes a players' career just doesn't work out.

The CA-PA system can and does create late bloomers, and it can and does produce early developing flops as well. I get that a lot of people don't like the concept of there being a given potential from a philosophical basis, but it's hard to complain about it's results in the gameworld.

At this point most of the things you mention about development are important to developing players within the current system. The difference is that you can't just develop anyone to become the next Messi. Not every youngster who plays first team football will make it long term, and as such they shouldn't in game.

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