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jcw163

The Advanced Forward as lone striker

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Morning,

I've been having a little trouble with my long term save finding a balance between not conceding goals and scoring enough goals.

My usual set up at the moment is a 4-3-3 (4-1-2-2-1) with a DLFs as the lone striker so as to link up with the midfield. Unfortunately we are not scoring as many as I'd like and my main centre forward at the moment does not have the passing skills required to play the DLF role to the required standard. What he does have in abundance is pace and presence. He is strong, quick, good in the air and a more than competent finisher (in theory, he's not scoring many but this is in no small part due to his being played as a DLF. These attributes suggest to me he would make an extremely effective advanced forward, able to bully a defence, spearhead an attack and, crucially, score plenty of goals. My issue is how best to support an Advanced Forward as a lone front man, ie to avoid him becoming disconnected from midfield.

At the moment we play a 4-3-3 set up as follows:-

GKd

FBs

DCd

DCd

FBa

DMd

BBM

CMa

Wa

IFs

DLFs

This is proving moderately successful, and was enough to secure Champions League qualification last season, however we still seem to be flying by the seat of our pants a little, and could do with being a little bit more threatening now that the team is strong enough to avoid always playing in a very reactive way.

As such I would like to use a fairly proactive strategy, but mainly I am keen to switch the ST to an AFa in order to get the most out of this extremely talented player. Ideally I do not want to tweak the shape too much, as I prefer having a DM involved (My DM and 2 DCs are extremely strong and provide a very solid base which I don't want to disrupt if possible).

How would you go about involving the advanced forward in a *similar* system? I am toying with the idea of going to a 4-2-3-1 (either with DMs or MCs) but I have not had much joy defensively with that shape in FM16. All comments on-topic welcome, however any new system will still ideally feature a DM, and a winger\inside forward combo on the flanks (we have good out and out right wingers and an extremely talented attacking player for the left).

Any thoughts?

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You have an opportunity to explore a common FM notion: that a lone striker needs to have a lot of immediate support if he has an Attack Duty. Arguably this doesn't apply as much for certain mobile Roles up front, but you'll often see comments from people like me that an AF (A) or Poacher can be isolated where there is no AMC.

Your system does have decent support from central midfield, and could have better support from out wide (by switching the Duties of your wide Roles). Your current tactic works so it is safer to tinker than revert to an entirely different formation. Do things logically; first just try him as an AF (A) with no other changes. See how he moves - is he isolated or does he have sufficient early support from the MCs and AML/R? If not, which player(s) do you want to be further up, earlier? If a change is needed, then make a single change to try to get the main support player up there. Keep repeating these single tweaks until you get a reasonable balance.

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Thanks RT

Out of interest, why would you switch the wide duties (you personally I mean, not as some sort of objective thing)? I was thinking (with the AF and current duties) that the IFs would be able to come inside and possibly play through balls to the AF, while the winger would look to cross from the byline having got behind a full back. This was something I was thinking of looking at, I'm just interested to hear other people's thoughts.

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Thanks RT

Out of interest, why would you switch the wide duties (you personally I mean, not as some sort of objective thing)? I was thinking (with the AF and current duties) that the IFs would be able to come inside and possibly play through balls to the AF, while the winger would look to cross from the byline having got behind a full back. This was something I was thinking of looking at, I'm just interested to hear other people's thoughts.

My preference is to get an IF right up in the box as a real second striker. On Support, they can do that but on Attack it is just achieved a little earlier. PPMs and suchlike can affect this so it isn't something I'll always do, but it is a template I typically have in my head. When it comes to Wingers, the Attack Duty guy won't really be an "in-box" threat to the extent that an IF can be, so that's why I do what I do. As an aside, I simply don't use Wingers because I'm not a fan of crossing in general, so I'd probably use an AP out wide if I wanted different Roles on each flank.

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My preference is to get an IF right up in the box as a real second striker. On Support, they can do that but on Attack it is just achieved a little earlier. PPMs and suchlike can affect this so it isn't something I'll always do, but it is a template I typically have in my head. When it comes to Wingers, the Attack Duty guy won't really be an "in-box" threat to the extent that an IF can be, so that's why I do what I do. As an aside, I simply don't use Wingers because I'm not a fan of crossing in general, so I'd probably use an AP out wide if I wanted different Roles on each flank.

I agree on the roles. Inside forward(A) and winger(S) is exactly how I play, it seems to work best that way. Theory being that the inside forward acts almost as a second striker, and gives the support winger two targets to aim at instead of one - also solves the potential problem of the striker being isolated.

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Mmm I've been mulling this over all day and I think that makes sense. The IF top scored for me last season with a staggering 9 (NINE!) goals in all comps so pushing him forward might get us a bit more threat. Would probably switch the FBa behind him at left back to a WBs as well for balance?

Here's hoping this works out ok, I could really do with a European place again just to try and keep my best players happy! These long-term multiplayer games are hell on the nerves.

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So the Advanced Forward has not been a roaring success. In addition moving the IFs to an IFa almost completely took him out of the game. Not good.

Have moved the lone striker to a Poacher now, something I wouldn't normally do, but we're trying to work out how to get some goals from our ST and in the last 3 games they've scored 5 goals (across 2 different starters) so this is good. In addition the left sided IFa has been replaced with an APa and now is much more involved in the attacking side of things, often drifting very centrally. As such the left back is now a CWBs in order to maintain some width as the AP comes inside.

Team now looks like this:-

GK

FBs

DC

DC

CWBs

DMd

RPM

CMa

Ws

APa

Pa

The main role I'm unsure about now is the RPM. The CMa needs to stay a CMa to get up around the penalty area and help the striker, but I'm not sure how to play his partner. Previously we were on CMa and BBM but this often left us short handed when attacks broke down. I've used RPM instead of BBM for a couple matches and it looks like a reasonable idea, but we may still get caught a little short. On the other hand a DLPs seems to make us more conservative and make it easier for defences to shut our attacks down.

Ah well, we roll on I guess, ended a run of 10 w/o a win all comps once we changed some things up so I guess that's a positive.

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In one of my saves, I ve been trying to use an AF in the same formation you use (4-1-2-2-1) in a possession-game mentality and I observed that the AF frequently runs into defenders because of his 'Dribble More' instruction; often double-teamed by the opponent CDs because there is no partner to pull one of the defenders away in order to create operating space for the AF.

Also I recognised that AF ,as a lone striker, performs better in counter-attacks, when he takes on one CD at a time provided that he gets the ball near or inside the opponent's final third.

IMO the AF role is kind of difficult to use unless the player is 'advanced' as the role suggests; who has to have high ratings for Dribbling, Composure, Anticipation, Off the ball etc.

Maybe you can share some of your players' screenshots so that mods or more exp. guys could give some advice.

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@ZekiBey

Yeh this pretty much sums up why it isn't working so far. The striker has every required attribute with the exception of the dribbling. The most natural fit would probably be the Target Man roles, but I don't want to affect the rest of the team's passing so that's out. The deep lying roles don't work either as per the first post, it's really his pace\strength\heading\finishing I'm seeking to take advantage of. Ideally I'd like him as a TMa but without the impact on the rest of the teams' passing (this is why I was thinking AF). At the moment I'm using him as a poacher and actually we're getting better movement than with the AF as (I think) it's just a bit simpler. Primarily looking to score and letting everyone behind him deal with the approach play. In the last couple of games the poacher role has got the striker(s) a couple of goals (post 7) so going to see how that works over the next few games.

Am a little bit disappointed the initial AF plan hasn't worked, but I think the striker in question's inability to dribble well might be responsible for that!

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@ZekiBey

Yeh this pretty much sums up why it isn't working so far. The striker has every required attribute with the exception of the dribbling. The most natural fit would probably be the Target Man roles, but I don't want to affect the rest of the team's passing so that's out. The deep lying roles don't work either as per the first post, it's really his pace\strength\heading\finishing I'm seeking to take advantage of. Ideally I'd like him as a TMa but without the impact on the rest of the teams' passing (this is why I was thinking AF). At the moment I'm using him as a poacher and actually we're getting better movement than with the AF as (I think) it's just a bit simpler. Primarily looking to score and letting everyone behind him deal with the approach play. In the last couple of games the poacher role has got the striker(s) a couple of goals (post 7) so going to see how that works over the next few games.

Am a little bit disappointed the initial AF plan hasn't worked, but I think the striker in question's inability to dribble well might be responsible for that!

I'm using a poacher too and if finding it to be very productive at the moment. One of the reasons for that I think, is my strikers personality. He relishes big matches and is described as being very consistent. Also he has high work rate etc. I did bring in another 'bigger name' striker to play alongside him but he flopped. His attributes looked good (for my level) but he had a suspect personality. So just didn't work out. I think that the players personalities can have a large bearing on things too!

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@ZekiBey

Yeh this pretty much sums up why it isn't working so far. The striker has every required attribute with the exception of the dribbling. The most natural fit would probably be the Target Man roles, but I don't want to affect the rest of the team's passing so that's out. The deep lying roles don't work either as per the first post, it's really his pace\strength\heading\finishing I'm seeking to take advantage of. Ideally I'd like him as a TMa but without the impact on the rest of the teams' passing (this is why I was thinking AF). At the moment I'm using him as a poacher and actually we're getting better movement than with the AF as (I think) it's just a bit simpler. Primarily looking to score and letting everyone behind him deal with the approach play. In the last couple of games the poacher role has got the striker(s) a couple of goals (post 7) so going to see how that works over the next few games.

Am a little bit disappointed the initial AF plan hasn't worked, but I think the striker in question's inability to dribble well might be responsible for that!

Really interested to see this come up as I've had similar issues. I manage Athletic so really have to play with what I have as no decent options out there I can sign. I have two centre forwards who are out and out advanced forwards, which is fine as I often play a 4-2-3-1, however my secondary formation is a more defensive possession orientated 4-1-2-2-1, which I use away against tough teams. I've always been concerned that my forward would get isolated as an AF when counter opportunities arise, and that perhaps the team would function better with a forward who dropped deeper. I might have to give the poacher role a try to see how it goes!

I have managed to get some success with the AF as a lone forward. I play him with the following roles alongside him:

AF (A) slightly offset to the right in the hope that he isolates against one defender and makes space for the IF (A) cutting in

IF (A) on the left

W (S) on the right

Then importantly, the two CM roles are AP (A), and BBM.

I have found the offset position for the AF, giving the IF A room to cut in and also space for the BBM to push forward to interact with the IF A works well.

My forwards are reeeeaaally not suitable to play supporting roles so have had to experiment with a few options to find something functional.

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So the "I want to play this big physical spearhead type striker but not as a target man" has failed completely, I've now made him a TMa and it's goals galore so yeh.

Wasted everyone's time with this thread I guess

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On 22/01/2016 at 21:06, jcw163 said:

So the "I want to play this big physical spearhead type striker but not as a target man" has failed completely, I've now made him a TMa and it's goals galore so yeh.

Wasted everyone's time with this thread I guess

No, it's been a great read, and quite helpful. I play a 4231 with Arsenal, and just can't get my striker to score. This is what I use.

GKd

WBs

CDd

BPDd

WBs

DLPd

BBM

Winger on the right

APs

IFa

And here's where I struggle. I just can't score with any role. I've tried AFa, Pa a bit, CFs, CFa a bit, and PFa a bit, and none seem to work. Please help.

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I am using something similar at Malaga. They are relegation material so it’s probably easier to find space as teams come and look to get something out of the game. I have played only one game but we trashed Athletic 5-1. I am using a Poacher up top because I have the familiar Kevin Gameiro on loan (initially I managed Valencia) and I don’t like dribbling. I think it’s important that the striker don’t dribble a lot because he will very likely be the most advanced player and his team mates will need rockets to catch up with him dribbling.

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9 hours ago, Arsenal457 said:

And here's where I struggle. I just can't score with any role. I've tried AFa, Pa a bit, CFs, CFa a bit, and PFa a bit, and none seem to work. Please help.

The role of your striker is important in the context of the rest of your system.  Strikers not scoring isn't just about your striker, the roles around him and your other tactical settings will all play a part.

You already have 2 threads on the go with lots of help and suggestions there.  You'll probably get more answers and ideas if you carry on with those rather than necro'ing this 2 year old thread :thup:.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

You already have 2 threads on the go with lots of help and suggestions there.  You'll probably get more answers and ideas if you carry on with those rather than necro'ing this 2 year old thread :thup:.

One is focusing on how to get the most out of my APs at CAM (and has been dead for a bit), and the other one is with you, to which I responded to with no answer.

Edited by Arsenal457

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3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

The role of your striker is important in the context of the rest of your system.  Strikers not scoring isn't just about your striker, the roles around him and your other tactical settings will all play a part.

I know it isn't and that's why I listed all the instructions. I'm open to suggestions for any of them.

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11 minutes ago, Armistice said:

I am using something similar at Malaga. They are relegation material so it’s probably easier to find space as teams come and look to get something out of the game. I have played only one game but we trashed Athletic 5-1. I am using a Poacher up top because I have the familiar Kevin Gameiro on loan (initially I managed Valencia) and I don’t like dribbling. I think it’s important that the striker don’t dribble a lot because he will very likely be the most advanced player and his team mates will need rockets to catch up with him dribbling.

As you go along, could you share more of your results? Also how much did Gameiro score in that game?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Arsenal457 said:

As you go along, could you share more of your results? Also how much did Gameiro score in that game?

Sure, will update as I play more matches. Gameiro scored twice, but one goal was a penalty. I need to watch the match back and see if he was isolated, on a first sight he wasn't.

Edited by Armistice

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1 hour ago, Arsenal457 said:

One is focusing on how to get the most out of my APs at CAM (and has been dead for a bit), and the other one is with you, to which I responded to with no answer.

The issue is using a scatter gun approach by trying pretty much each and every striker role for a match or two, hoping something is going to work, thinking it doesn't and moving on without really understanding what's going on.

If your striker isn't scoring goals it's because of a combination of factors, not just the striker himself.  If you get the most out of your AP, you'll get the most out of your striker too.  From the system you posted above I notice you are persisting with using an AP(s) as you have always been doing and yet you still aren't getting the most out of your striker.  So why keep changing the striker's role rather than your CAM or others around it?

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17 minutes ago, herne79 said:

The issue is using a scatter gun approach by trying pretty much each and every striker role for a match or two, hoping something is going to work, thinking it doesn't and moving on without really understanding what's going on.

If your striker isn't scoring goals it's because of a combination of factors, not just the striker himself.  If you get the most out of your AP, you'll get the most out of your striker too.  From the system you posted above I notice you are persisting with using an AP(s) as you have always been doing and yet you still aren't getting the most out of your striker.  So why keep changing the striker's role rather than your CAM or others around it?

That is true. I did just play a match with Auba at Pa and he scored against Chelsea, and a match against Brighton and Geubells scored at CFa. I have changed my left WBs to WBd, and made my winger an IFs and that seems to be working. My WBs on the right in Aarons, has got 3 assists in 2 games.

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37 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Sure, will update as I play more matches. Gameiro scored twice, but one goal was a penalty. I need to watch the match back and see if he was isolated, on a first sight he wasn't.

Thanks, looking forward to hearing results!

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Posted (edited)

Well I played a few more matches to have made an opinion. What the role description says is exactly how I see it behave in games.

poacher.png

His main job is to push against the opponent's defence so therefore he won't help too much in the build-up. He looks a bit isolated because of that so I decided to change the role. Keep in mind that my tactic sort of 'demands' that too, I mean one of the main goals in the 4-1-4-1 (or 4-1-2-2-1 as we all know it) is to use support duties in AML/R so they can drop back and help defend, so the Poacher's on his own even more.

 

Also for the first time in FM19 I've seen my team score some marvelous goals. I will upload the clips if anyone's interested.

Edited by Armistice

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When I played 4-1-4-1 DM wide I never had problems with my striker scoring. I played him mostly as PFa but also as as a AFa. I had a loaned out player, Kupusović from Red Star, he was a average at best but still managed to be top goalscoreer 2 seasons in a row. Then  other strikers after him went on to be top golasorers. I often read here on forums that those roles n that formation could get them isolated but for my team I fond that was a good thing. I started in 3rd division so a lot of teams would give me the space and my striker would score a lot of goals by getting a through ball frm my IFs or APa on counter or some sort of semi-counter.

Only now when I changed club but also a tactic to a 4-2-3-1 asymetric, that I find my strikers struggling. So I guess it is trickier but I don't want to give it up because I have some good AMCs.

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1 hour ago, Armistice said:

Well I played a few more matches to have made an opinion. What the role description says is exactly how I see it behave in games.

poacher.png

His main job is to push against the opponent's defence so therefore he won't help too much in the build-up. He looks a bit isolated because of that so I decided to change the role. Keep in mind that my tactic sort of 'demands' that too, I mean one of the main goals in the 4-1-4-1 (or 4-1-2-2-1 as we all know it) is to use support duties in AML/R so they can drop back and help defend, so the Poacher's on his own even more.

 

Also for the first time in FM19 I've seen my team score some marvelous goals. I will upload the clips if anyone's interested.

I'm 100% interested. So what the morale of this is, don't use poacher for 4141?

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

When I played 4-1-4-1 DM wide I never had problems with my striker scoring. I played him mostly as PFa but also as as a AFa. I had a loaned out player, Kupusović from Red Star, he was a average at best but still managed to be top goalscoreer 2 seasons in a row. Then  other strikers after him went on to be top golasorers. I often read here on forums that those roles n that formation could get them isolated but for my team I fond that was a good thing. I started in 3rd division so a lot of teams would give me the space and my striker would score a lot of goals by getting a through ball frm my IFs or APa on counter or some sort of semi-counter.

Only now when I changed club but also a tactic to a 4-2-3-1 asymetric, that I find my strikers struggling. So I guess it is trickier but I don't want to give it up because I have some good AMCs.

That's exactly how I felt. Please tell me if you find a solution, because I couldn't and that cost me the boot. I think the problem might be the AP doesn't have room to put a through ball through.

Edited by Arsenal457

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1 hour ago, Arsenal457 said:

That's exactly how I felt. Please tell me if you find a solution, because I couldn't and that cost me the boot. I think the problem might be the AP doesn't have room to put a through ball through.

My results are good and I'm a champion for 2 straight seasons in Belgian top division, but my striker is still struggling. Sometimes there are some good games but he is the only one I'm not happy with. AP plays well and getting good ratings. Now I changed some players for the new season and I will try some other things and see how it goes.

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1 hour ago, yolixeya said:

My results are good and I'm a champion for 2 straight seasons in Belgian top division, but my striker is still struggling. Sometimes there are some good games but he is the only one I'm not happy with. AP plays well and getting good ratings. Now I changed some players for the new season and I will try some other things and see how it goes.

How do you get the AP to get a good rating? I've struggled with that for a long time...

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

How do you get the AP to get a good rating? I've struggled with that for a long time...

I don't know he played well from the start, didn't really have trouble with that.

                                AF

                 Ws         APs       IFs

                    BWMs

                                      DMs

                FBs  CDd     CDd    FBa

This was my setup last season and BWM was my player of the season. He scored a lot of goals because AP would lay off the ball for him. He (AP) also played a lot of balls for my wide players.  I played on positive mentality, short passing, be more expressive, play out of defence, fairly narrow. In transition regroup, counter, distibute to CB, standard defensive line, standard LOE. 

Edited by yolixeya

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Just to add. I tried many different roles for striker but they were all with attacking duty. I was really stubborn with that.  It made no scence to me to use some supporting role and that my winger and FBa don't have anybody to cross to.

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10 hours ago, Arsenal457 said:

I'm 100% interested. So what the morale of this is, don't use poacher for 4141?

No I don’t think it’s fair to make rules out of specific roles & formations. It depends on your setup and how you want your player to play. It sounds basic but it really is your decision if you are pleased with the Poacher and his contribution or you want a different role.

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3 hours ago, Armistice said:

No I don’t think it’s fair to make rules out of specific roles & formations. It depends on your setup and how you want your player to play. It sounds basic but it really is your decision if you are pleased with the Poacher and his contribution or you want a different role.

Cool. The CFa isn't working so I'm trying DLFa and Pa for Laca and Auba respectively.

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10 hours ago, yolixeya said:

Just to add. I tried many different roles for striker but they were all with attacking duty. I was really stubborn with that.  It made no scence to me to use some supporting role and that my winger and FBa don't have anybody to cross to.

You could try a DLPa? Also for strikers on support it often gives another passing option. They might get an assist from there, or be the 3rd pass to end up being the scorer. If it's gone wide, they will get in the box. 

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14 hours ago, yolixeya said:

I often read here on forums that those roles n that formation could get them isolated but for my team I fond that was a good thing. I started in 3rd division so a lot of teams would give me the space and my striker would score a lot of goals by getting a through ball frm my IFs or APa on counter or some sort of semi-counter.

The bolded part is key. So any role can work if the tactic as a whole is set up logically according to the circumstances under which you are playing.

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11 hours ago, yolixeya said:

AF

                 Ws         APs       IFs

                    BWMs

                                      DMs

                FBs  CDd     CDd    FBa

 

10 hours ago, yolixeya said:

Just to add. I tried many different roles for striker but they were all with attacking duty. I was really stubborn with that.  It made no scence to me to use some supporting role and that my winger and FBa don't have anybody to cross to.

Have you possibly considered giving the winger (AML) attack duty instead of support? It's quite logical when you play with a lone striker on attack, especially in a 4231. And given that you have a FB on support and BWM behind him, that would make even more sense.

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7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Have you possibly considered giving the winger (AML) attack duty instead of support? It's quite logical when you play with a lone striker on attack, especially in a 4231. And given that you have a FB on support and BWM behind him, that would make even more sense.

Yes, actually that's how I started in a new season and even in last season he would be sometimes on attack duty.  There were also some other changes. I don't have a BWM any more so I play with DLPsu and IFsu is now IWsu in MR. I initially changed AMC as well to AMsu but now he is APsu again to see how it will be with 2 playmakers.

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I've changed my mind, I'm determined to make it work. I'm going with a 4231 again.

 

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29 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

I've changed my mind, I'm determined to make it work. I'm going with a 4231 again.

 

ok cool, in that case I'll close this old thread here and please continue to use your existing 4231 thread as there's already a lot of relevant help in there :thup:.

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