Tactical Central & Insight: FM 2016

[Loversleaper]

Final Game Status

This is how I play in the lower leagues and first when I get into the top league I will most likely start using more advanced tactical systems - which is something that I hope I can show in the upcoming weeks.

I will upload the saves as soon as I find a good site to upload them to --- and still looking for advice from anyone who has the time which site is good for this sort of thing...

Thanks

LL

[Jakob8b]

That was interesting, look forward to your next updates :-)

[Keyzer Soze]

Hi Loversleaper,

To start, great thread. I took the time to read it all and try to implement some ideas to my tactic.

Unfortunatly i'm really struggling, in particulary against weaker opponents.

I have try different roles/duties in my tactic, but the final result is always the same: Against defensive opponents i simple can't create enough changes to win the games.

I'm playing with Benfica, a team that is suppose to dominate and win most of league games. My opponents, apart from Porto, Sporting and Braga will always play very defensive/counter attack against me.

I was always like the 4123-DM tactic, so i like to stick with it.

I'm playing Control/Fluid with only 5 TI:

- Work Ball Into Box

- Roam from Positions

- Pass Into Space

- Look For Overlaps

- Closing Down More

AF(a)

AP(s)_______________________IF(a)

CM(a)________BBM(s)

DM(d)

WB(s)____CD(d)____CD(d)____WB(s)

G(d)

In terms of PI, i use:

WB(s) with stay wider instruction

CD(d) with close down less Instruction

DM(d) with tackle harder instruction

BBM(s) with tackle harder and mark tighter instruction

MC(a) with shoot less often, tackle harder and roam from position instruction

AP(s) with close down more instruction

IF(a) with close down more instrucion

And that's it.

What am i doing wrong? Why my team can't create goal chances, and usually ends drawing the matches or loose with the odd goal in the end?

[Loversleaper]

Hi Loversleaper,

To start, great thread. I took the time to read it all and try to implement some ideas to my tactic.

Unfortunatly i'm really struggling, in particulary against weaker opponents.

I have try different roles/duties in my tactic, but the final result is always the same: Against defensive opponents i simple can't create enough changes to win the games.

I'm playing with Benfica, a team that is suppose to dominate and win most of league games. My opponents, apart from Porto, Sporting and Braga will always play very defensive/counter attack against me.

I was always like the 4123-DM tactic, so i like to stick with it.

What am i doing wrong? Why my team can't create goal chances, and usually ends drawing the matches or loose with the odd goal in the end?

I won't be able to give my viewpoint on making tactics work if you want to make one tactic that will work in all situations. As Benfica I assume that you are in the Master Class area in terms of what tactics I personally would use - and that would be these three Strategies for the most part : Attack Strategy for League Home games (maybe in the Champions League you might have to play slightly more cautious) and Control for most of your Away Games where you are large favorites (with a simple click from Control to Standard if you are slight favorite) and then have the Counter for the tricky away games (especially in the Champions league).

Looking at your TI & PI's is not really something I personally would do and would keep the settings much more simple - especially with the Player Instructions. I will post a few ideas a little later how I would play a team like Benfica or Barcelona (or any other Master Class team).

But keep in mind - creating a one-hit-wonder tactic that will conquer all situations is something that I will not be doing at any point because that is simply not how I play the game. I tend to use more of the tactical options that are at my disposal.

[Keyzer Soze]

I won't be able to give my viewpoint on making tactics work if you want to make one tactic that will work in all situations. As Benfica I assume that you are in the Master Class area in terms of what tactics I personally would use - and that would be these three Strategies for the most part : Attack Strategy for League Home games (maybe in the Champions League you might have to play slightly more cautious) and Control for most of your Away Games where you are large favorites (with a simple click from Control to Standard if you are slight favorite) and then have the Counter for the tricky away games (especially in the Champions league).

Looking at your TI & PI's is not really something I personally would do and would keep the settings much more simple - especially with the Player Instructions. I will post a few ideas a little later how I would play a team like Benfica or Barcelona (or any other Master Class team).

But keep in mind - creating a one-hit-wonder tactic that will conquer all situations is something that I will not be doing at any point because that is simply not how I play the game. I tend to use more of the tactical options that are at my disposal.

Hi,

Thks for the reply.

I know that the idea of having a "wonder tactic" that can win all games it's something impossible, and that is not my goal.

But i believe that is possible to build a tactic where, playing with a team like Benfica, i can win 80% of my games (both home and away) without having to make big changes from game to game.

This is, i believe, what big teams do. They don't adapt to the opponent. They play the same way, despite the opponent.

From reading various threads in this forum, the key to sucess, playing with Control/Attacking tactic, is always the same: Creating space upfront.

And that is dificult, at least for me. The balance between having more players with attack duty and at the same point having space in the opponent area so they can move around it's hard to achieve

[Farina]

This is, i believe, what big teams do. They don't adapt to the opponent. They play the same way, despite the opponent.

This is a myth. Even Guardiola at Barcelona made adjustments from game to game. Staying true to certain principles doesn't mean the tactics are replicated over and over.

[Loversleaper]

I just wanted to finish the 4-1-2-2-1 / 4-1-4-1 Direct tactic sets so that there are all the sets from Defensive through to Attack. Overload and Contain strategies I haven't used yet so that is why I haven't included them yet. Contain will most likely look like the Defensive Strategy without Forward Runs Often on the wings and probably used the Narrow option instead of the Fairly Narrow plus Lower Tempo - and Overload will most likely look more like the Attack Strategy and maybe add the Sweeper Keeper but without the Play Out Of Defense instruction (Maybe also change the formation to a 4-3-3 Narrow and Go Route One/Pump Balls into Box)

Attack Strategy

The Goal Keeper rolls the ball out to the Center/Full Backs (optional) - the Central Defense Close Down Less and Tight Mark - *Another optional instruction that I tend to use sometimes is give the Attacking Full Backs Dribble more and Crossing from Byline*

Counter Strategy

The Keeper Distributes Quickly - The Center Defense Close Down Less and Tight Mark

*These two tactics above I really rarely use in the Lower Leagues as these strategy (natural) settings don't always compliment your team - especially Attack as that usually requires a certain amount of talent. Generally if I have the absolute best team or a team with really quick players with lots of stamina, then I might try it. Up to you, though...

[sergiofilipevale]

if it were a ball game style as you would for the different mentalities

[GeesusChrist]

I read this thread with great interest and tried my best to create a decent tactic for my Curzon Ashton side.

I'm in my 4th season having finished 14th, 1st, 24th and now I am on the verge of the sack as I am currently 11th with about 15 games to play.

It is lower league so I used a direct system 4-4-2, this is my squad set up

GK (D)

Fullback (Au)

Central Defender (D)

Central Defender (D)

Fullback (AU)

Winger (A)

Central Midfielder (Au)

Central Midfielder (D)

Winger (A)

TM (A)

F9 (s)

with the Defensive, Standard and Control settings.

I had reasonable success, was 2nd after about 12 games, all going well, then boom 10 games without winning, mostly losses to nil, I then tried your tactic as you are in the same league, for maybe 7 or 8 games, won 3 games but should've lost (well outplayed), drawn 2 against 21st and 20th in the league and lost the others. Also my fullbacks have shocking ratings more or less every game/

My team talks on the whole get a green response, If we are the favourites which is rare it seems these days, and morale is at least good, I expect a win aggressively, if we aren't winning I aggressively say not good enough - this what was said to do by some dude on here that had a unbeaten season. Morale never really goes below okay because of team meetings.

I'm really struggling to motivate myself because I can't see what I am doing wrong but I feel I have to carry on because it's currently my LP on Youtube. Just really frustrates me that it seems everyone else is having success and I just seem to struggle to at best a 2-1 win against bottom of the league!

[Loversleaper]

I read this thread with great interest and tried my best to create a decent tactic for my Curzon Ashton side.

I'm in my 4th season having finished 14th, 1st, 24th and now I am on the verge of the sack as I am currently 11th with about 15 games to play.

It is lower league so I used a direct system 4-4-2, this is my squad set up

GK (D)

Fullback (Au)

Central Defender (D)

Central Defender (D)

Fullback (AU)

Winger (A)

Central Midfielder (Au)

Central Midfielder (D)

Winger (A)

TM (A)

F9 (s)

with the Defensive, Standard and Control settings.

I had reasonable success, was 2nd after about 12 games, all going well, then boom 10 games without winning, mostly losses to nil, I then tried your tactic as you are in the same league, for maybe 7 or 8 games, won 3 games but should've lost (well outplayed), drawn 2 against 21st and 20th in the league and lost the others. Also my fullbacks have shocking ratings more or less every game/

My team talks on the whole get a green response, If we are the favourites which is rare it seems these days, and morale is at least good, I expect a win aggressively, if we aren't winning I aggressively say not good enough - this what was said to do by some dude on here that had a unbeaten season. Morale never really goes below okay because of team meetings.

I'm really struggling to motivate myself because I can't see what I am doing wrong but I feel I have to carry on because it's currently my LP on Youtube. Just really frustrates me that it seems everyone else is having success and I just seem to struggle to at best a 2-1 win against bottom of the league!

Making the 4-4-2 work might take a few adjustments from what you are doing above. In the Defensive Strategy I wouldn't have the wingers on attack duty and instead have them on support with the 'Get Further Forward' instruction. Maybe to get your full backs working better then maybe have them manually following the general mentality of the strategy (re: Defensive = Defend Duty - Standard and Control = Support Duty) instead of Automatic just to see if it helps on their ratings.

Also what I do in the 4-4-2 is to have a Deep Lying Playmaker on defend duty on the left center - and have the other Central Midfielder following the team mentality (like the full back explanation above). That would make your team shape Flexible with the two specialized roles up front - and since you don't have a player with the Roaming Instruction then have the team Stick To Positions.

I am not sure if I agree with the team talk and in the lower leagues I tend use more calm or cautious tones and not put too much pressure on the team generally. After a run of bad form it usually is a good idea if you hold a team meeting and maybe slam the team at the end of match team talk - but slamming them isn't something you should be doing too often. You didn't mention specifically what you did so this is just a general statement on my part.

I was going to put in a 4-4-2 at one point - and due to your post I might have to push that a little forward in my agenda.

[GeesusChrist]

thanks for the response Loversleaper.

We do indeed seem to struggle to create chances, most of our wins have been 1-0 or 2-1 So dLP might be a good shout. I seem to think I had fluid on because I had 2 Specialised roles selected, Would the team instructions be the same as what you put in the lower league section on post 12? I've knocked the game on its head for tonight, probs have a gander over the weekend, I think I have good enough players to at least get into the playoffs but when you can't beat league strugglers, then you are going to find it hard!

[Loversleaper]

thanks for the response Loversleaper.

We do indeed seem to struggle to create chances, most of our wins have been 1-0 or 2-1 So dLP might be a good shout. I seem to think I had fluid on because I had 2 Specialised roles selected, Would the team instructions be the same as what you put in the lower league section on post 12? I've knocked the game on its head for tonight, probs have a gander over the weekend, I think I have good enough players to at least get into the playoffs but when you can't beat league strugglers, then you are going to find it hard!

If you add the DLP then you would have three specialist roles then I would go for a Flexible team shape personally. The Team/Individual Settings for the 4-4-2 would look like the settings I used in post #46 (in the Boston U save)

[Long Islander]

Do you use OIs? What about your Assman's recommendations? I think I might use OIs too much and might mess up my squad's shape. Should we listen to the Assman?

[Loversleaper]

if it were a ball game style as you would for the different mentalities

I will include other versions of some of the tactics I use very soon - I just haven't had much time lately, but hopefully maybe later today I might be able to find time to put some more screenshots up...

Do you use OIs? What about your Assman's recommendations? I think I might use OIs too much and might mess up my squad's shape. Should we listen to the Assman?

I don't ever use OI's and never listen to the Assistant. In one match for fun I did press the 'make change' under the Assistant manager advice during a match just to see what settings were being changed - and things like 'work ball into box' got ticked then later following another advice it unticked that setting. OI's get changed also back and forth from being closed down or tight marked and the guy scored anyway... All quite comical... I simply stay away from all that because so far I haven't found it necessary.

[Ampalaea4]

I remember in your old thread you also had some tactics per style and coach... I loved this and I had all of them. In every style and formation, you had 4-6 tactics for all strategies.. Is there any possibility you will upload sets of tactics too? I know that you are against plug n play tactics, etc, but I liked the fact that I was using a specific coach style and was trying to build my team for that tactic

[right_winger]

Loversleaper - thanks for this topic, some things were really useful for me as well as for many others.

There are two things though that I probably need your help to understand properly.

Firstly, I am not sure whether I should think of myself as a Relegation Battler now due to poor results and being 15th, or still as a Tactician Manager due to being predicted to finish 8th which is right in the middle? After transfers my squad might be regarded as slightly weaker, but not much enough to "degrade" me I think.

Secondly, I can't work out which would be the most reliable data when I plan my mentality for next game:

1) Players' quality

2) Pre-season expectations

3) Current form/morale and league position

4) Match odds - would make sense only if they take all of the above into consideration and also injuries of first team players.

Here is an example. I am just about to play a home game against one of the title contenders in Swedish Premier Division. My predictions regarding the opponent's mentality might differ depending on which of those four points above I rely on:

1) they have clearly a stronger team - in each position their best player is better than mine, most by 0.5 or 1 star, one by 1.5 star. So they are likely to play Control or maybe Standard.

2) they were the favourites to win the league, we were predicted to finish 8th. Again looks to me that they will play Control.

3) last five games they had WLWLD, we had WLXWD (by the way what's the difference between X and D both meaning a draw?), they are 5th, we are 15th (of 16 teams). Hard to make a conclusion on this, could make them play Standard or maybe even Counter due to recent form, but might as well Control due to them being near the top and us fighting against relegation. Generally this is I think the least possible and most unreliable source.

4) match odds are... surprise surprise... 6/4 for us, 2/1 for a draw, 13/8 for them, with the news item predicting a close encounter with our home turf giving us the edge. So they might not be that brave in this away game and now go with Standard or even Counter, am I right?

So if I go with option 1 or 2 then I probably shouldn't go higher than Counter mentality, however if I go with option 4 then I might even try Control. Of course you could say just try one of these and switch during the game if you think it was a bad decision, but the problem then is that I might pick different starting eleven for different mentalities (eg more attacking CM or Winger for Control vs more defensive minded for Counter).

EDIT: Just noticed my opponents have three first team players (DC and two MC's) unavailable due to injury + suspensions which is probably part of the reason for the odds favouring my team slightly. Can anyone confirm it's how it works?

[kingjericho]

Best new thread of the day for me. Will try to revive my english style 4-4-2 with the help of this guide.

[Loversleaper]

@yasiek83

Since you seem to be favorite in match odds I think that your opponent (even in the given situation you have explained) would probably go for the Counter against your team. I would personally attempt to Control the game and go for the win. I have been toying around a little with the Control Strategy because although I did quite well in the Boston save above, I still felt that there was something that could make the strategy a little more effective which I will include in a few minutes in the 4-4-2 version that I will be posting and you can take a look.

So, going back to the Boston save (I have included the screen shot further up the page as well).

Control Strategy:

Goal Keepers rolling the ball out and Central Defenders Closing Down Less + Tight Marking

I feel these settings do slightly better resultwise and is a little more aggressive.

[Loversleaper]

Attack 4-4-2_Direct

Goal Keeper Rolls Ball out - Center Backs Close Down Less and Tight Mark - *Another optional instruction that I tend to use sometimes is give the Attacking Full Backs Dribble more and Crossing from Byline*

Control 4-4-2_Direct

Goal Keeper Rolls Ball out - Center Backs Close Down Less and Tight Mark

Standard 4-4-2_Direct

*Optional Goal Keepers Roll Ball out* - Center Backs Close Down Less + Tight Mark

Counter 4-4-2_Direct

Goal Keeper Distributes Quickly (maybe to the flanks/Full Backs) - Center Backs Close Down Less + Tight Mark

Defensive 4-4-2_Direct

Goal Keeper Takes Long Kicks

Defensive 4-4-2_DM_Direct

Goal Keeper Takes Long Kicks

I included two versions of Defensive Strategies just to show that sometimes I change Formations that emphasize on certain areas of the pitch that I want strengthen. I do this in the Attacking department as well sometimes with certain formations - I will get into this also down along the line when I will go also into more Flexible/Structured team shapes.

Remember that these tactics are Base Tactics and you can of course add other roles and become more Flexible/Structured - but here is where I start out and then add from there (or not)... Depending on what I want to do.

[right_winger]

@yasiek83

Since you seem to be favorite in match odds I think that your opponent (even in the given situation you have explained) would probably go for the Counter against your team. I would personally attempt to Control the game and go for the win.

I actually managed to play the match before seeing your response. I did go for the win by using Control sniffing my chance in the fact their squad was weakened. Added some tweaks against their best assist provider and three replacement players. We looked ok and won 2-0! They were still dangerous from time to time, especially after their formation changed from 442 to 442 Attacking when they were two goals down. I think it just proves the quality of their two forwards as their usual supply was cut off but they still created at least 2 CCC and some half chances too. It was after I initially switched to Counter so then I went up to Standard and this calmed things down.

To sum up for we are halfway through the season and for the first time I was happy with all: the decisions I made, the performance and obviously the result. Big credit to you as thanks to the advice in your posts I managed to work things out before and during the game. Although three of my players had 6.6 rating and got substituted still other three made it to the Team of the Week which nad not happened before this season.

Next game away the odds are exactly the same but this time not in my favour so I have a whole day to work out the plan before I play tonight. I hope my reinstated love of the game won't be slapped by a 4-0 defeat or something similar;)

[kingjericho]

I'll wait for your analysis of the 4-4-2 in post #69.

I want to try and have a working 4-4-2 based on your guide, and regarding roles and duties my projected 4-4-2 would be almost entirely equal, the only doubt was the DLP(D)/CM(D) and the AF(A)/P(A) .

I'm more curious about the TIs, though. Especially in the Attacking and Control sets, what is your reasoning for using Play Out Of Defense and Look For Overlap? Doesn't that contradict the direct style?

[Loversleaper]

Next game away the odds are exactly the same but this time not in my favour so I have a whole day to work out the plan before I play tonight. I hope my reinstated love of the game won't be slapped by a 4-0 defeat or something similar;)

In this situation I would try and Defend the game and hope for some quality breaks. Going for the win doesn't necessarily mean you are going to win and trying to Defend doesn't have to mean you can't attack and score the winner --- for me, it's about knowing when to Attack and when to Defend.

I posted two versions of Defensive Strategy just to show different ways you can do this with the 4-4-2. The one with the 2 DM's require of course the players that can fit into the system, so you have the alternative if you don't - but the 2 DM one is a little more defensively sound naturally...

I'll wait for your analysis of the 4-4-2 in post #69.

I want to try and have a working 4-4-2 based on your guide, and regarding roles and duties my projected 4-4-2 would be almost entirely equal, the only doubt was the DLP(D)/CM(D) and the AF(A)/P(A) .

I'm more curious about the TIs, though. Especially in the Attacking and Control sets, what is your reasoning for using Play Out Of Defense and Look For Overlap? Doesn't that contradict the direct style?

Play out of defense was an attempt to stop the players from hoofing the ball for one and the other reason is because in the situations where I use Control/Attack I usually am the better team. Being the better team should give the possibility of trying to be in more possession and I think that is one of the TI's that can help in that department. I was also thinking that play out of defense is something that the really good teams probably can do in the lower Strategies as well.

Look for overlap is an attempt to have more players forward to assist in breaking down more tight/defensive/high timewasting opponents. I haven't seen any contradictions because overlapping usually occurs in the last third of the pitch where, on the other hand, play out of defense occurs further down (preferably with the Roll Out instruction for the Goal Keeper).

The Player instructions will be identical to the 4-1-2-2-1 sets in the Boston save further up.

[right_winger]

In this situation I would try and Defend the game and hope for some quality breaks. Going for the win doesn't necessarily mean you are going to win and trying to Defend doesn't have to mean you can't attack and score the winner --- for me, it's about knowing when to Attack and when to Defend.

I posted two versions of Defensive Strategy just to show different ways you can do this with the 4-4-2. The one with the 2 DM's require of course the players that can fit into the system, so you have the alternative if you don't - but the 2 DM one is a little more defensively sound naturally...

This got me thinking now, as I thought I would do opposite to the previous game - expect them to play Control so go with Counter myself (I feel I have enough quality to hurt them). However you might be right as in that last game my opponent's Counter vs my Control didn't end well for them;)

[GeesusChrist]

Quick question, you are away from home, 4-7 on to win - I started with standard, then I went 2-0 down, what would you have done?

[Loversleaper]

Quick question, you are away from home, 4-7 on to win - I started with standard, then I went 2-0 down, what would you have done?

Is that a clear/sure-fire favorite where the opponent 'has to put up the barricades' or is it against slight underdogs? That is what I base more my decision on. Just remember, even choosing a good strategy for the game won't guarantee that you will win the match. Sometimes I think I do quite well with the strategy choice and match stats suggest that I should have won but still have to accept that I didn't get something out of it - but in the long run I tend to do better than worse, which is much more important.

If the description is that I am a huge away favorite - then I tend to go with Control and see if I can control the game a press the opponent more. If the description is close, then it's usually Standard but if it's a European or another type of Cup game (or I assume that the opponent could be stronger than odds suggest like when you meet world class teams) then Counter could do quite well also... Sometimes hard choices have to be made

The problem usually boils down to Closing Down in my opinion - close down too hard against an opponent that has the quality to avoid your pressure and run rings around your players, of course, causes problems just as well as not pressuring your opponent enough will give your opponent too much time to strike you where it hurts. That is why, for me, there is a learning process and I tend to notice how I do against certain opponents (match stats being the key).

[Finknottle]

Loversleaper, where would you place the current Liverpool team? Masterclass, Tactician or Relegation battler? For what it's worth my opinion is Tactician. Looking forward to setting up your 4-4-2 sets in the morning. It's good to see you back.

[Loversleaper]

Loversleaper, where would you place the current Liverpool team? Masterclass, Tactician or Relegation battler? For what it's worth my opinion is Tactician. Looking forward to setting up your 4-4-2 sets in the morning. It's good to see you back.

Liverpool are one of those teams that can go quickly through what I call a 'transition phase' - so, I would probably start out as a Tactician and have the Control, Standard and Defensive strategy as the main tactics. But around 15 games in, I would start to look at result form and if I am doing really well, then I would definitely have Attack and Counter to replace the Standard and Defensive strategy somewhere close by.

Personally, I would more likely go for the 4-4-1-1 formation and maybe use 4-2-3-1 in the more attacking strategies and maybe use more Mixed passing along with the strategies.

Good luck

[Finknottle]

Liverpool are one of those teams that can go quickly through what I call a 'transition phase' - so, I would probably start out as a Tactician and have the Control, Standard and Defensive strategy as the main tactics. But around 15 games in, I would start to look at result form and if I am doing really well, then I would definitely have Attack and Counter to replace the Standard and Defensive strategy somewhere close by.

Personally, I would more likely go for the 4-4-1-1 formation and maybe use 4-2-3-1 in the more attacking strategies and maybe use more Mixed passing along with the strategies.

Good luck

Loversleaper, where are the 4-4-1-1 and 4-2-3-1 tactics sets, please. I don't see them in this thread. Also, what is the procedure regarding the dreaded OI's, do as the Ass. Man. says, do them myself or leave them out altogether? Apologies if you have already addressed the OI question,. I was up until 03:30 this morning setting up the 4-4-2 and the 4-1-2-2-1 sets and then started to wade through the text. I may have missed the OI bit. Apologies.

After trying out the two sets with Liverpool, I am thinking that the 4-4-2 seem to work best, even though, with the unbalanced squad LFC have the 4-1-2-2-1 should be the better option. It is the formation that I have used when I made mine own tactics.

[right_winger]

Originally Posted by Loversleaper View Post

In this situation I would try and Defend the game and hope for some quality breaks. Going for the win doesn't necessarily mean you are going to win and trying to Defend doesn't have to mean you can't attack and score the winner --- for me, it's about knowing when to Attack and when to Defend.

I posted two versions of Defensive Strategy just to show different ways you can do this with the 4-4-2. The one with the 2 DM's require of course the players that can fit into the system, so you have the alternative if you don't - but the 2 DM one is a little more defensively sound naturally...

This got me thinking now, as I thought I would do opposite to the previous game - expect them to play Control so go with Counter myself (I feel I have enough quality to hurt them). However you might be right as in that last game my opponent's Counter vs my Control didn't end well for them

Went with your advice (Defend) and won 4-1 , the score settled before half time. Although in the next game I was clear favourite at home against a team that lost their previous five games and unfortunately it ended 0-0. At times they weren't sitting as deep as I would expect them to and when they did I struggled to break them and create chances. Now another tough game away so we are going with Defend again and try to exploit their weaknesses somehow.

[RedJonnyBoy]

Hi,

Looking at using following fornation/roles would they work?

2 full backs, both on support

2 CB both on defend

2 CM's one on box to box and one on ball winning (defend)

1 winger on support

1 Ramdeuter

1 CAM on treq

1 Defensive Forward on support

I'm fearing that the ramdeuter, treq and defensive forward will get in each others way.

[Ampalaea4]

I started a new save and I am using the 4-4-2 Direct tactics with Nottingham Forest. So far I played 2 games, 1 in the Championship Away with Brighton (Played Counter strategy and won 2-3) and in the Capital Cup I played with Portsmouth from League 2 and I also started with Counter strategy, because the odds was 1.80 to win..I guess this is slight favorites, so I started as counter. I score first, but then I concede 2 goals and the game is 2-1 at 70. I switch to attacking and score 2-2..then switched to Control and I scored again and won 2-3!

I don't know, maybe I had to start with control right from the start and dont give too much space to the opposition...Btw, I love the direct football much more that short passing tiki taka...what is the most important general attributes for this style of play? I guess with direct play, players must be fast to move in space and also strong to receive high balls?

EDIT: Third match with Rotherham at Home and won 4-1! I started with Control and when I was winning 3-1 at 60 I switched to counter and scored a 4th goal. So far so good..

[Loversleaper]

Went with your advice (Defend) and won 4-1 , the score settled before half time. Although in the next game I was clear favourite at home against a team that lost their previous five games and unfortunately it ended 0-0. At times they weren't sitting as deep as I would expect them to and when they did I struggled to break them and create chances. Now another tough game away so we are going with Defend again and try to exploit their weaknesses somehow.

This is the main problem I am having with this current build of the ME (re: FM16.2.0) and that is there comes a point where the Closing Down settings, even though maxed out, simply fails to put the opponents (that are playing incredibly defensive/tight/high timewasting) under enough pressure. A big hint that the Closing Down is not currently working as it should is that the Instruction of 'Prevent short GK distribution' simply has no impact what so ever. I have looked at plenty of games to see that is not happening.

So, I am pretty sure that this issue must be in the works up in SI towers, because little ol' me won't be the only one noticing these things. I know that others on the forums have suggested that you can play more cautious (like Counter) and pull the opposition up the pitch and then you can counter them - but unfortunately it doesn't work like that in my experience. The AI doesn't 'think' like that - it sits back behind your 'Line of Pressure' and passes the ball around without any worry, causing your team to lose incredible amounts of possession. Closing Down higher helps more in the possession department and you can still win the games so it doesn't effect that much in terms of achieving success - it's just that it is difficult in this situation to get those type of Barcelona-like high possession stats against these really defensive/tight/high timewasting opponents and you might run into games where it feels like you have a hard time actually breaking them down and getting the result...

I am pretty confident that it will come with a future build.

[Loversleaper]

Hi,

Looking at using following fornation/roles would they work?

2 full backs, both on support

2 CB both on defend

2 CM's one on box to box and one on ball winning (defend)

1 winger on support

1 Ramdeuter

1 CAM on treq

1 Defensive Forward on support

I'm fearing that the ramdeuter, treq and defensive forward will get in each others way.

I am going to throw an idea up in the air that I tinkered with at one point. Right now I am starting out with base tactics so users have a building point and then they have the options to add from there. But here is what I suggest in terms of two types of inside forwards and how to make them not run into other players areas of play:

Here you can see that I have a RMD on the right and an Inside Forward on the left. Since the RMD has the instruction of 'sit narrower' - I also included that instruction to the Inside Forward as well. This was kind of my idea behind a more German style of football (disciplined team work style) - my 'version' of a Jupp Heynckes tactic during his Bayern Munich spell. I haven't tested enough to include the other strategies that follow that formation just yet - but will do in sometime in the future.

I was thinking of having a Germanic style of football with the explanations that I daringly made in post #12 in the thread at one point in time - which should also include a 4-1-3-2 formation.

But first things first, I have to learn how to crawl before I run as well...

*Just wanted to add that the False9 can easily do well in this formation - but it depends of course on what players you have.

[Finknottle]

Loversleaper, my post #78. I am assuming that there is no 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1 tactic as you haven't responded. Also that there are not any OI's either. Sorry for repeating my questions.

[RedJonnyBoy]

I am going to throw an idea up in the air that I tinkered with at one point. Right now I am starting out with base tactics so users have a building point and then they have the options to add from there. But here is what I suggest in terms of two types of inside forwards and how to make them not run into other players areas of play:

Here you can see that I have a RMD on the right and an Inside Forward on the left. Since the RMD has the instruction of 'sit narrower' - I also included that instruction to the Inside Forward as well. This was kind of my idea behind a more German style of football (disciplined team work style) - my 'version' of a Jupp Heynckes tactic during his Bayern Munich spell. I haven't tested enough to include the other strategies that follow that formation just yet - but will do in sometime in the future.

I was thinking of having a Germanic style of football with the explanations that I daringly made in post #12 in the thread at one point in time - which should also include a 4-1-3-2 formation.

But first things first, I have to learn how to crawl before I run as well...

*Just wanted to add that the False9 can easily do well in this formation - but it depends of course on what players you have.

Like the idea. I've just started a save in 2. Bundesliga so something like that could work perfectly. Only thing is all my strikers prefer to play as defensive forward, so either I sell a couple or I play them in an unpreferered role.

[Loversleaper]

Loversleaper, my post #78. I am assuming that there is no 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1 tactic as you haven't responded. Also that there are not any OI's either. Sorry for repeating my questions.

Was just getting around to it

Not yet, but I think it would be relatively easy to accomplish by slightly tweaking the 4-4-2 into the 4-4-1-1. Then in the Control and Attacking strategies move the wingers forward into the AMR/L positions and keep the formations in the Fluid and Very Fluid team shape department. In the Defensive Strategy maybe try a 4-4-1-1 with two DM's just for fun...

[Loversleaper]

Like the idea. I've just started a save in 2. Bundesliga so something like that could work perfectly. Only thing is all my strikers prefer to play as defensive forward, so either I sell a couple or I play them in an unpreferered role.

You can retrain some of the players that have good attributes into other roles if necessary. If you do chose to try to use the tactic/formation I think it is best, since there is no Play Maker, that the Central Midfielder has the instruction of 'Tries Risky Passes' to thread balls through to the RMD, Inside Forward and the Striker...

Good luck and if you find something along the way, please feel free to share - I will probably not have time in the near future because I have other things on my plate at the moment :-/

[RedJonnyBoy]

You can retrain some of the players that have good attributes into other roles if necessary. If you do chose to try to use the tactic/formation I think it is best, since there is no Play Maker, that the Central Midfielder has the instruction of 'Tries Risky Passes' to thread balls through to the RMD, Inside Forward and the Striker...

Good luck and if you find something along the way, please feel free to share - I will probably not have time in the near future because I have other things on my plate at the moment :-/

I certainly will. Thanks for the tips.

[Loversleaper]

I started a new save and I am using the 4-4-2 Direct tactics with Nottingham Forest. So far I played 2 games, 1 in the Championship Away with Brighton (Played Counter strategy and won 2-3) and in the Capital Cup I played with Portsmouth from League 2 and I also started with Counter strategy, because the odds was 1.80 to win..I guess this is slight favorites, so I started as counter. I score first, but then I concede 2 goals and the game is 2-1 at 70. I switch to attacking and score 2-2..then switched to Control and I scored again and won 2-3!

I don't know, maybe I had to start with control right from the start and dont give too much space to the opposition...Btw, I love the direct football much more that short passing tiki taka...what is the most important general attributes for this style of play? I guess with direct play, players must be fast to move in space and also strong to receive high balls?

EDIT: Third match with Rotherham at Home and won 4-1! I started with Control and when I was winning 3-1 at 60 I switched to counter and scored a 4th goal. So far so good..

Away against Portsmouth (who are two leagues further down), I would have gone with Control the whole match. But I find it interesting that you are tinkering with tactics and it's working out - you are trying logical solutions and it seems to be paying off.

Regarding the passing: I am not enjoying short passing right now at all because funnily enough, direct looks more like short and short looks more like hoofing the ball around. I have managed to succeed with shorter passing and it was tied down to playing more narrow winger-less formations - like the 4-3-2-1 formation.

[right_winger]

This is the main problem I am having with this current build of the ME (re: FM16.2.0) and that is there comes a point where the Closing Down settings, even though maxed out, simply fails to put the opponents (that are playing incredibly defensive/tight/high timewasting) under enough pressure. A big hint that the Closing Down is not currently working as it should is that the Instruction of 'Prevent short GK distribution' simply has not impact what so ever. I have looked at plenty of games to see that is not happening.

So, I am pretty sure that this issue must be in the works up in SI towers, because little ol' me won't be the only one noticing these things. I know that others on the forums have suggested that you can play more cautious (like Counter) and pull the opposition up the pitch and then you can counter them - but unfortunately it doesn't work like that in my experience. The AI doesn't 'think' like that - it sits back behind your Pressing Down Line and passes the ball around without any worry causing your team to lose incredible loss in possession. Closing Down higher helps more in the possession department and you can still win the games so it doesn't effect that much in terms of achieving success - it's just that it is difficult in this situation to get those type of Barcelona-like high possession stats against these really defensive/tight/high timewasting opponents and you might run into games where it feels like you have a hard time actually getting the result...

I am pretty confident that it will come with a future build.

Your theory makes sense as from around 70th minute my opponents were basically playing tiki-taka around the middle of the pitch and my players were only watching, even though I maxed out the closing down and I was on Control or Attack mentality. However things got slightly better after I moved one of my ST to AMC position so he was near their DMC (I still think my guy as Def. Forward (D) should have been at least trying to press the DMC but no). They started to play more long balls, most of them fruitless.

[macca72]

I am going to throw an idea up in the air that I tinkered with at one point. Right now I am starting out with base tactics so users have a building point and then they have the options to add from there. But here is what I suggest in terms of two types of inside forwards and how to make them not run into other players areas of play:

Here you can see that I have a RMD on the right and an Inside Forward on the left. Since the RMD has the instruction of 'sit narrower' - I also included that instruction to the Inside Forward as well. This was kind of my idea behind a more German style of football (disciplined team work style) - my 'version' of a Jupp Heynckes tactic during his Bayern Munich spell. I haven't tested enough to include the other strategies that follow that formation just yet - but will do in sometime in the future.

I was thinking of having a Germanic style of football with the explanations that I daringly made in post #12 in the thread at one point in time - which should also include a 4-1-3-2 formation.

But first things first, I have to learn how to crawl before I run as well...

*Just wanted to add that the False9 can easily do well in this formation - but it depends of course on what players you have.

This is a formation / style I have wanted to make work for a long time. I may start a new save to try this out.

[Loversleaper]

I just played a test match as a slight favorite, and Newcastle being a more Tactician type team, I naturally went with Control as shown in the screenshot above. I would call this style of football as being more result orientated, a sort of 'lethal touch' type of football where team comes before beauty. To further that style of Germanic football, I think that the Match Preparation of 'Attacking Set-Piece' with good set-piece routines would make the game a little more fun in a way (which I didn't do here and set pieces are on default).

Standard, Control and Attack you can easily use the formation and roles - but when it comes to Counter and Defensive you might have to rethink some of the roles & positioning. Like moving the AML/R down to the ML/R positions and you might have to ditch the Regista role to make the tactic more defensively sound.

*By the way, I used Perez as a False9 and in the second half (60 minutes) I went with Pape as a Complete Forward and both seemed to work quite well.

[Finknottle]

Thanks Loversleaper I'll try and nave a go with what you say but I'm no tactics guru. That's why I always give up trying to make my own after about one season or so. Just one more thing, please, OI's. Yea or nay. It would be nice if you have the time and inclination to put up a set of 4-2-3-1 wide tactics. Forgive my cheekiness!

[Loversleaper]

To go back to the 4-2-1-3 DM tactic with Newcastle where I explained that it might be a good idea to change a little to become more sound here is what I would do basically and keep the Flexible Team Shape:

Generally I am keeping the player settings pretty much like all the other tactics shown so far in the thread so, in the Defensive Strategy I have the Goal Keepers taking Long Kicks + Tight Marking and of course the two Support Wingers with added 'Get Further Forward' instructions. The Regista role players can usually play the Deep Lying Playmaker as well and the Central Midfielder usually adapts easily to the Box to Box midfielder role - then you should be able to use the same players basically for all the different strategies and keep the Flexible Team Shape at the same time.

I opted not to use the Complete Forward because since I am using the Box to Box midfielder because then that would make the Tactic have two players with Roam from Position. Personally I don't think this is a good idea if I want to play Defensively compact because if I did (have two players roaming) it might leave too much space at times that the opposition can exploit. Also the Box to Box midfielder could get further up the pitch at times to support the Lone Striker - which in this case I used Perez as a False9 and substitute Pape in the second half (60 min) I changed his role from F9 to a Defensive Forward, so both look like okay options.

Small sample I know, but match stats show that it looks pretty decent - and Newcastle needing quite a lot of work to get players in I think I did quite well:

[Finknottle]

Loversleaper, thanks for your last two formations. Also, I'm looking forward to seeing the finished 4-2-3-1 and the 4-1-3-2 sets. The former because in my humble opinion, it is the best option that Liverpool have because of their imbalanced squad. Probably the reason why Brendam and Jurgen have needed to keep altering the formation. The latter because in the mid to late fifties our team coach was an Argentinian name Suarez. He taught us how to play the formation long before it ever was used in the UK. I've loved it ever since and would love to try it out with LFC. I do keep messing about when I have the time but my FM tactical knowledge is not too good, hence the reason why I keep playing with third party systems and then changing to try to get one of mine own going. I've yet to really succeed with that.

[loisvale]

Really enjoying this thread and applying the strategy through my career save. I am having a lot of enjoyment playing around with roles and team instructions with a good deal of success.

I hope you will be adding further to this thread as it would be of great interest to me and I'm sure many others. I would be really interested to see how your tactics would evolve with stronger teams and better players as an example.

Well done.

[Loversleaper]

I haven't had a lot of time to play long stretches of the game to be able to post anything - but been playing around with a few ideas: an Arsene Wenger 4-2-3-1 set that looks quite promising and a Conte 5-3-2/3-5-2 set that needs a little trying out. Will try to get around and post a few more tactic sets over the weekend. I would also like to complete the 4-2-1-3 Jupp Heynkes I started above as well and finish the 4-1-3-2 set I started a while back - so much I want to do and so little time atm...

[loisvale]

Excellent. Looking forward to seeing your ideas on all of that.

[sergiofilipevale]

Hello

I started a save with AC Milan which used tactics 41221 placed here where chosen attack, control the counter attack ended the first epoch in fourth place. do you think I hurt the team approach. should have chosen other mentalities?

[the mister]

Hi LL. You're a familar name from my previous FM life, several years ago. Having looked around a few tactical threads I find myself back at yours.

Could you please clarify this for me, I think I'm having a blonde moment -

3 Man Flat Midfield with a Defensive Midfielder position: Here I can have a different outlook. The Defensive Mid I will use these Roles perferably - Defensive Midfielder or Half Back (I generally use the Half Back as he works very good in this midfield set-up) on Defend Duty. On the left center I think the Roaming Play Maker (add Risky Passes) works good along with a centrally positioned Center Midfielder on Attack Duty in the Standard/Control/Attack/Overload Strategies or a Central Midfielder on Support Duty in the Counter/Defensive/Contain Strategies - but I add Forward Runs here. On the right-center have a Center Midfielder on the Team Mentality. Again, you can play around with the Roles - but keep the Duty aspect intact if you can.

I'm not sure of the duties on the MCl and the MCr in the strategy frameworks.

I've read all your opening posts, now I'm off to read the rest of the discussion :-) Thank you for taking the time and effort to share all this and providing the support in your thread.

EDIT: having read all the discussion and checked out the screenshots (which I should really have done first anyway!) the MCl always has a support duty, whereas above you say 'on attack duty in the Standard/Control/Attack/Overload Strategies'? Sorry if I'm getting confused.