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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2016 - 16.2.0 Official feedback thread

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In fairness, that's exactly how it works in real life too.

IF the cross goes all the way through to the far post yes. That however doesn't happen nearly as often as it does in FM, because in real life defenders can actually defend. In FM all they can do is stand around looking pretty, or whatever it is they're doing, but it sure as hell ain't defending. If you look at crossed goals in real life and compare it to FM, I'm pretty sure the ratio of headed goals from crosses vs volleys is completely different. In FM I barely see headers, while in real life I'm pretty sure headers are the majority. Maybe not by that much, but nowhere near as little as in FM. I got 7 corners and 30 crosses as assist. Headed goals? 11. So less than one third of my goals from crosses are actually headers and if I could actually narrow it down further I think that most of my corner goals were headers, so my headers from crosses are even lower. Furthermore I have 29 out of 80ish goals scored from inside the 6 yard box. Those are the kind of balls you'd expect to be prey of the goalie, but they're glued to their line half the time.

Whole thing gets even more amusing when you look at the assist location of the goals I receive. 37 out wide, 13 from the center and 1 from their half. Considering my formation those stats don't surprise me all that much, but I can definitely see where all the "1 cross, bunch of useless defenders, 1 goal" complaints are coming from. Kinda surprised about the rather low amount of assists from the center, as I see my team get torn apart at times as if I were playing Barca, but overal considering my crappy league I guess it's that most teams don't have the skill to play through the center.

It's nothing with crossing being too strong, it's just defenders being absolutely horrible.

Just some fun things I've seen over and over:

1: CB for some reason covering Winger out wide, with FB being inside. Well weird, but ok at least things seem to be covered. What happens when the ball is actually played out wide? CB starts running inside and FB comes to the outside... Then when the Winger gets the ball with miles of space the CB turns around and runs to close down the Winger, who just crosses it in as he has all the time in the world.

2: Long cross comes in. Defenders first stand in awe at how the guy can actually kick the ball like that, then they slowly (very, very slowly) start turning towards the goal and when they're finally facing the goal they start running towards it. Too bad the cross came in an hour ago, you're a bit late there chaps! error#404 walking.backwards module not found or something there...

3: Defenders actually being in a good position for once and then the cross goes just past them and.... they do nothing. Or the even better version, where the ball goes straight through them and they still fail to get a touch on it.

Long story short, defending overal looks absolutely horrible far too often and goalies could definitely be a lot more active in coming out for crosses.

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Match engine:

Still far too many goals from crosses.

True. Far post mainly.

Keeper mistake and/or a DC fluke resulting in an easy header or just a tap.

Quite frustating bug.

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IF the cross goes all the way through to the far post yes. That however doesn't happen nearly as often as it does in FM, because in real life defenders can actually defend. In FM all they can do is stand around looking pretty, or whatever it is they're doing, but it sure as hell ain't defending. If you look at crossed goals in real life and compare it to FM, I'm pretty sure the ratio of headed goals from crosses vs volleys is completely different. In FM I barely see headers, while in real life I'm pretty sure headers are the majority. Maybe not by that much, but nowhere near as little as in FM. I got 7 corners and 30 crosses as assist. Headed goals? 11. So less than one third of my goals from crosses are actually headers and if I could actually narrow it down further I think that most of my corner goals were headers, so my headers from crosses are even lower. Furthermore I have 29 out of 80ish goals scored from inside the 6 yard box. Those are the kind of balls you'd expect to be prey of the goalie, but they're glued to their line half the time.

Whole thing gets even more amusing when you look at the assist location of the goals I receive. 37 out wide, 13 from the center and 1 from their half. Considering my formation those stats don't surprise me all that much, but I can definitely see where all the "1 cross, bunch of useless defenders, 1 goal" complaints are coming from. Kinda surprised about the rather low amount of assists from the center, as I see my team get torn apart at times as if I were playing Barca, but overal considering my crappy league I guess it's that most teams don't have the skill to play through the center.

It's nothing with crossing being too strong, it's just defenders being absolutely horrible.

Just some fun things I've seen over and over:

1: CB for some reason covering Winger out wide, with FB being inside. Well weird, but ok at least things seem to be covered. What happens when the ball is actually played out wide? CB starts running inside and FB comes to the outside... Then when the Winger gets the ball with miles of space the CB turns around and runs to close down the Winger, who just crosses it in as he has all the time in the world.

2: Long cross comes in. Defenders first stand in awe at how the guy can actually kick the ball like that, then they slowly (very, very slowly) start turning towards the goal and when they're finally facing the goal they start running towards it. Too bad the cross came in an hour ago, you're a bit late there chaps! error#404 walking.backwards module not found or something there...

3: Defenders actually being in a good position for once and then the cross goes just past them and.... they do nothing. Or the even better version, where the ball goes straight through them and they still fail to get a touch on it.

Long story short, defending overal looks absolutely horrible far too often and goalies could definitely be a lot more active in coming out for crosses.

Agree with a lot of this, I would add the below, having spent many many hours on FM16. I do also think these have been issues for a while (ME or animation).

1. Defenders playing long passes across their own area.

2. Goalkeepers throwing the ball in the air to defenders 5 yards away, which usually results in a header that goes nowhere

3. Most players constantly using their weaker foot

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There is a reason why so many people are complaining.

Actually its the opposite. There has to be a reason that so few people are complaining this year, way less than for the last 4 or 5 years. I think here are maybe 10 people complaining about crosses, some of them are just repeating it every day.:-) As others said, this is the best feedback for a FM for a long time. Nevertheless i also hope they improve the me with the final patch even more.

The end product (15.3) is definitely much better than 16.2 in that sense, no comparison imo.

I agree that the balance with regard to crosses may have been better in 15.3. But this game was horrible for so many reasons i can not even start, to name just two there were way too many shots and often too many goals. So the me in 16.2 is already way ahead of 15.3 and i think 90% of all people here would agree with that.:-)

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I've just noticed you can apply for other jobs without instantly facing the sack and, oddly, I'm not even sure if I like this development.

Also, why do my EPL u21s play weekly friendlies against non-league scottish teams during the season?

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I'm seriously starting to lose patience with the player interaction/promises. I tell a player I'll "start him in the next few matches" and suddenly he has a promise that he'll play in the first team for six months.

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This game is so infuriating, heres how 90% of my matches pan out. Dominate possession (65-70%) have numerous chances (20-25 not all ccc) and struggle to score, when I do score my opposition get 1 or chances and equalise (normally a counter attack or set piece). How come the ai are so decisive when counter attacking? How come the goalkeepers I face play like DeGea and Neuer? especially when I'm playing in the Scottish lower leagues when most stats are like 6's and 7's. This cant be tactical because I dominate every game and I have better players the most teams I face.

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This cant be tactical because I dominate every game and I have better players the most teams I face.

So as a stronger side, you dominate in terms of possession and shots, and yet are still open to occasional counters or set pieces? Why can't it be tactical? Do better players render tactics unimportant?

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This game is so infuriating, heres how 90% of my matches pan out. Dominate possession (65-70%) have numerous chances (20-25 not all ccc) and struggle to score, when I do score my opposition get 1 or chances and equalise (normally a counter attack or set piece). How come the ai are so decisive when counter attacking? How come the goalkeepers I face play like DeGea and Neuer? especially when I'm playing in the Scottish lower leagues when most stats are like 6's and 7's. This cant be tactical because I dominate every game and I have better players the most teams I face.

If you are regularly giving up good counter attacking chances then it is most certainly down to your approach. Good chances >>> lots of chances.

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It will be tactical, if you're after a more detailed discussion head over to the tactics & training forum.

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So as a stronger side, you dominate in terms of possession and shots, and yet are still open to occasional counters or set pieces? Why can't it be tactical? Do better players render tactics unimportant?

If you read my post its not occasional as you put its near enough every game. How can it not be infuriating seeing all the highlights of my team missing chance after chance, the opposition GK with with terrible stats pulling off worldys every game and then with 10 mins to go the ME finds them some way to equalise.

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How can I tactically get my striker to score one of his 10 chances a game or how can I tactically stop the AI from making poor GKs making wonder saves?

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If you read my post its not occasional as you put its near enough every game. How can it not be infuriating seeing all the highlights of my team missing chance after chance, the opposition GK with with terrible stats pulling off worldys every game and then with 10 mins to go the ME finds them some way to equalise.

As I said, if you are regularly giving them up, you need to change your approach. There is no such thing as "the ME finds a way", since it doesn't even differentiate between the inputs.

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Is this the match engine we have to deal with till the transfer update? or are there plans for another patch before?

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Is this the match engine we have to deal with till the transfer update? or are there plans for another patch before?

This will almost certainly be it until the Winter Transfer Window update, and that update won't necessarily see another ME update included.

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and that update won't necessarily see another ME update included.

excuse me!!! Is this your opinion/guess or have you had some official line?

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That is fact.... the winter update may not have and ME update included... it probably will, but not definitely.

The fact is, no-one knows for sure, and won't know until the update drops.

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excuse me!!! Is this your opinion/guess or have you had some official line?

No official line, but the bugs forum is very quiet in the ME section and that's the main area which would prompt SI to further investigate any issues that they aren't already working on. Apart from mentions of offside counts, woodwork hits, camera angles and some subjective stuff, very few issues have been raised, none of which are fundamental ME issues in my opinion.

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If you read my post its not occasional as you put its near enough every game. How can it not be infuriating seeing all the highlights of my team missing chance after chance, the opposition GK with with terrible stats pulling off worldys every game and then with 10 mins to go the ME finds them some way to equalise.

I think part of the problem is the representation of the game makes your chances look better than they should be - from your experience of watching real football, the build-up play has you thinking 'sitter' and then there's a save or miss animation that looks out of whack with the quality of the chance.

Over a season the results tend to be reasonable and reflect a club's level, but for individual matches you need to be aware that the opposition will throw everything at you in the last 15 mins if one goal will level or win the match and you have to be prepared for it; depending on the opposition that may be countering or parking the bus, but don't do nothing.

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No official line, but the bugs forum is very quiet in the ME section and that's the main area which would prompt SI to further investigate any issues that they aren't already working on. Apart from mentions of offside counts, woodwork hits, camera angles and some subjective stuff, very few issues have been raised, none of which are fundamental ME issues in my opinion.

A quiet bugs forum doesn't surprise me. I think, regardless of how they are being expressed, most of the issues being raised in this feedback thread around the ME are ones of balance and the overall feel of the resultant matches. I also think that the better counter attacking has thrown a lot of people - I know it did me!

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A quiet bugs forum doesn't surprise me. I think, regardless of how they are being expressed, most of the issues being raised in this feedback thread around the ME are ones of balance and the overall feel of the resultant matches. I also think that the better counter attacking has thrown a lot of people - I know it did me!

The efficiency of countering is certainly a factor. It's a good thing and means that the gung-ho methods of old are largely too risky to persevere with. Another big consideration of course is how people watch matches. If you're using a strong team and dominating in terms of shots, then abbreviated highlights modes will show lots of chances (converted and missed) for the dominant side, with comparatively fewer opportunities seemingly taken by the opposition. That's the thing people sometimes seem to struggle to accept.

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The trouble is, RTH, that the game gives you insufficient feedback on what is going on. I usually play as Arsenal and have (this year) completely failed to either be successful or create an attractive 'Arsenal type' style. I usually watch in comprehensive, but sometimes go to full match or extended. I have read every thread there is to be read in the tactics forum and tried many different approaches to tactics - none of which works. Clearly I don't know the reason for my failures, or I would sort it for myself, but why on earth is the assistant manager 'advice' so poor? I have never used 'plug and play' and am not interested in that, but the lack of feedback from the game is frustrating. Playing as Arsenal should mean decent results as long as you don't do something stupid, but how am I supposed to deal with game after game of outplaying my opponents in terms of shots on target and CCCs etc yet losing to the one or two shots of the opposition? How does watching the game give me any help? There is such a disconnect between the instructions I give my team and how they perform (or are shown to perform by the graphics) that it is impossible to know where to start.

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The trouble is, RTH, that the game gives you insufficient feedback on what is going on.

Personally speaking I think the feedback is there and always has been, its just that users aren't recognising it.

You don't need to look at stats, heat maps or anything else. You just need to watch a decent amount of a match and understand what is happening on the pitch like watching a RL match. I use comprehensive highlights but its also possible on extended, less than that and your information is more limited but its a trade off. The more you watch the more information you have.

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How does watching my players fail to score time after time give me useful usable information? I know the difference between shots on target and not, I know the difference between long shots (because my player has no other option) and those from 10 yards out with only the goalie to beat, and I do, as I said, watch in comprehensive. We all know that you get games where things don't go right for you and you are unlucky - one of those days- but it happens too often for that. How are we supposed to know what is wrong? Why is it so difficult to provide Assistant Manager help?

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How does watching my players fail to score time after time give me useful usable information? I know the difference between shots on target and not, I know the difference between long shots (because my player has no other option) and those from 10 yards out with only the goalie to beat, and I do, as I said, watch in comprehensive. We all know that you get games where things don't go right for you and you are unlucky - one of those days- but it happens too often for that. How are we supposed to know what is wrong? Why is it so difficult to provide Assistant Manager help?

The only stats I ever use are the match stats widget to confirm what I'm seeing on the pitch. I manage by just watching the games and generally overachieve to some extent.

Maybe having coached IRL helps or means I view the game differently from others but just watching is enough to see what is happening.

How are you supposed to know what is wrong? I think this is the wrong way to look at it, its not a puzzle to be fixed or a black & white situation. You watch the match and make decisions which you hope benefit your team, which are the right ones? there is so much variety you really can't answer that as its individual to that one specific match in that particular moment.

You'll never get the level of help you are asking for from the in game AM as it doesn't have the capacity to think like a human brain.

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How does watching my players fail to score time after time give me useful usable information? I know the difference between shots on target and not, I know the difference between long shots (because my player has no other option) and those from 10 yards out with only the goalie to beat, and I do, as I said, watch in comprehensive. We all know that you get games where things don't go right for you and you are unlucky - one of those days- but it happens too often for that. How are we supposed to know what is wrong? Why is it so difficult to provide Assistant Manager help?

A shot on target =/= a good chance. That's where the difference is. Just this last week I had someone who believed his tactic was fine and couldn't spot any issues but he was still struggling. The amount of obvious things that was missed when I watched it was amazing. Shots with the weaker foot. Rushed shots. Blocked shots. Poor movement causing it. Etc. There's a lot to see if you look closely.

If it's so easy for you and me (presumably semi-intelligent people) to be unable to work out issues, it can't be easy for a computer program to analyse it. I'd say it's very hard, actually.

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Surely the computer does analyse it very well? Isn't that what the AI manager is doing when he sets up his (supposedly) inferior team to beat me?

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I have a new example of ridiculous decision making of my striker.

My MR/W/s is dribling forward, guy in the middle is AF/a.

[video=youtube_share;ERj2P2JMvZg]

Maybe worth a bug report?

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If you think it is a bug when considering the player in question and the circumstances etc, please do...

Isolated incidents like this don't fill me with confidence though..

The more that's reported the better imo.

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Worth logging as a potential bug for the ME team to investigate.

What might be important is the ability of the player, it looks like he makes a move towards the ball but is then left in no-mans land when his teammate takes up possession. If the advanced player has poor mental attributes it could explain his poor off the ball movement.

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I have already posted one video of similar behavior with my other striker. There are no PPMs involved and mental attributes of both players are 10s on average. Even though their ability isn't great I would still except them to take advantage of situation or at least not run towards their own goal in such great counter-attacking opportunity.

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I just had Redmond capped by Ireland after playing 2 friendlies for England. He scored in one of the England games.

I'm well aware this is permissible, but it leads to the unfortunate aesthetic situation where his "nationalities" tab shows his first international goal as 2017 and his first international cap as 2018 - so I think something needs to be done to better display the implications this quirk of the international selection rules, the current set-up seems to wipe his English caps but not his English goal.

His international morale also says he is delighted to pick up his first cap, which although technically true might read confusingly to some, I can't decide.

Far from important, just something that might need tidying up in future

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Surely the computer does analyse it very well? Isn't that what the AI manager is doing when he sets up his (supposedly) inferior team to beat me?

They set up generally. Nothing specifically against you or your tactic.

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Just played another match where the opponent scored 3 goals from crosses and won 3-0. Throughout the whole match it was a cross bombardment. They did nothing else. One of their wingbacks finished with 24! crosses all by himself. They had the ball for less than 40 minutes, so that means this guy crossed the ball more than once every two minutes they had the ball. This is insane amount of crosses. Some of the crosses also look completely unrealistic in the way how it was a first time cross, where the ball goes with rocket pace and super accurate, even though before it is crossed it comes towards the wing bouncing really high from a long ball. Everything happens in a second, the ball movement reaches an insane speed, it looks like a pinball machine rather than a soccer match.

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Are you reporting any of this as a bug bleventozturk? I'm really not sure what you would like people to do in this thread? You've given your feedback on it, if you genuinely think it's an issue... report it.

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i have deleted this game for now, i hope to god the febuary patch makes it better.

good players do nothing in htis game unless your tactics are spot on. you can have the best playmakers in the world, but if the opposition decides it will defend deep, they wont unlock the opposition defence. this game has gone too much on defence, meaning it is far too easy to defend. it makes for very boring matches, just watching balls being pinged about.

it is too systematic, if this isnt right, that will happen. if that isnt right this will happen. regardless of the players you have.

it has been very involving up until now, when i realise that nothing different is going to happen, and having to watch extended highlights just isnt for me.

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They set up generally. Nothing specifically against you or your tactic.

That's interesting. So what drives the AI manager to change formation or mentality during the course of the game? I always assumed that it was responding to my team and tactics, and how the match was going?

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ARGHHH

I had been playing fine for a few days but now my squad views are all over the place. No matter what one I set it to when I leave squad view and come back it is set to one of my custom ones, and always with the spacing randomised.

I reported it in BETA, but maybe the fact it comes and goes has stopped devs finding it.

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Are you reporting any of this as a bug bleventozturk? I'm really not sure what you would like people to do in this thread? You've given your feedback on it, if you genuinely think it's an issue... report it.

This is not a bug. It is a feedback on what I think is a fundamental weakness in the ME.

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ARGHHH

I had been playing fine for a few days but now my squad views are all over the place. No matter what one I set it to when I leave squad view and come back it is set to one of my custom ones, and always with the spacing randomised.

I reported it in BETA, but maybe the fact it comes and goes has stopped devs finding it.

Could well be - something that seems obvious to spot isn't always as easy to pin down in a development sense, and something that isn't immediately reproducable and works some of the time can be an absolute nightmare. Can't say I've noticed too many huge issues with layouts, apart from having to resize some to see some way off at the right. The spacing has glitched a couple of times, but it's pretty rare.

This is not a bug. It is a feedback on what I think is a fundamental weakness in the ME.

"Weaknesses" in the ME, whether they're fundamental or not, are still bugs. The optimal state of the ME is to mirror a real life game of football, so if there's a weakness at any point, it's a bug that I'm sure SI would love to hear about.

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This is not a bug. It is a feedback on what I think is a fundamental weakness in the ME.

Arguing semantics here. If you have specific examples of weaknesses, then put them in the right place.

Some of the crosses also look completely unrealistic in the way how it was a first time cross, where the ball goes with rocket pace and super accurate

You say it yourself you feel it's unrealistic, then surely from that game you would have plenty of examples, no?

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Arguing semantics here. If you have specific examples of weaknesses, then put them in the right place.

You say it yourself you feel it's unrealistic, then surely from that game you would have plenty of examples, no?

Yes. But it will take too long to upload it, report minutes of unrealistic crosses, etc. My free beta testing days are over, sorry. Posting a feedback here takes 2-3 minutes. Reporting a bug with details take 30min. I don't have time for it. SI will tweak it or not, whatever they do, it is up to them. You ask for feedback here, well, this is my feedback :) No harm done, right?

Just played my final match until another patch: I was leading 2-0 from two crosses. My opponent wasn't trying any crosses this time, they were forcing it through the middle and were creating nothing. Then they switched tactics and the crossing bombardment started. They scored from two crosses met by their men in back post with all my men just watching, game ended 2-2. The defenses are horrible, pretty much transparent. In slow motion it looks even worse. This is an unfinished product imo, like it typically is before the third patch in every version last few years. I am confident the third patch will be better but I think 16.2 is worse than 15.2. Let's wait and see.

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Yes. But it will take too long to upload it, report minutes of unrealistic crosses, etc. My free beta testing days are over, sorry. Posting a feedback here takes 2-3 minutes. Reporting a bug with details take 30min. I don't have time for it. SI will tweak it or not, whatever they do, it is up to them. You ask for feedback here, well, this is my feedback :) No harm done, right?

Just played my final match until another patch: I was leading 2-0 from two crosses. My opponent wasn't trying any crosses this time, they were forcing it through the middle and were creating nothing. Then they switched tactics and the crossing bombardment started. They scored from two crosses met by their men in back post with all my men just watching, game ended 2-2. The defenses are horrible, pretty much transparent. In slow motion it looks even worse. This is an unfinished product imo, like it typically is before the third patch in every version last few years. I am confident the third patch will be better but I think 16.2 is worse than 15.2. Let's wait and see.

Sorry but that's nonsense. In the time taken to reply to this you could have got one PKM going with the time codes. You don't want to upload that's fine, but lets not pretend it's massively time consuming. You've left your feedback, but don't want to provide anything more useful. That's the top and bottom of it.

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There's definitely something in the amount of goals coming from crosses, mainly converted at the back post (from what I've seen in 7 seasons on the new patch). Feels too regular and undefendable at times.

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bleventozturk, if you can't post without referring to people as fanboys, then don't post at all. That's the second time you've done that in recent times (see house rules)

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There's definitely something in the amount of goals coming from crosses, mainly converted at the back post (from what I've seen in 7 seasons on the new patch). Feels too regular and undefendable at times.

I'd argue it's less crosses and more the passing choices vs through the middle. anecdotal on my part so far, but seems sides are prone by default to move the ball wide rather than through the middle.

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I'm not sure if this has been brought up but...Surely 'prevent GK short distribution' should override any individual player role or formation? I play with a control mentality and a higher line. I play with a shadow striker and deep lying forward. I'm sure with these instructions my players should at least be within 5-10 yards of the back four but they just sit deep and let them play out anyway....why is it not registering as an instruction?

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I just had Redmond capped by Ireland after playing 2 friendlies for England. He scored in one of the England games.

I'm well aware this is permissible, but it leads to the unfortunate aesthetic situation where his "nationalities" tab shows his first international goal as 2017 and his first international cap as 2018 - so I think something needs to be done to better display the implications this quirk of the international selection rules, the current set-up seems to wipe his English caps but not his English goal.

His international morale also says he is delighted to pick up his first cap, which although technically true might read confusingly to some, I can't decide.

Far from important, just something that might need tidying up in future

Similarly sillily - if you call an uncapped player into a national squad you get told in the squad announcement it is a "debut call-up". If you don't play them and call them up again it is still called a debut callup in the news item.

I get why this is happening but that doesn't stop it being incorrect usage of the term.

sortitoutsi

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That's interesting. So what drives the AI manager to change formation or mentality during the course of the game? I always assumed that it was responding to my team and tactics, and how the match was going?

As I said, they don't analyse your tactic. It's general changes. They're 1-0 down at 60 mind, like you and I, they will attack more. They'll make decisions based on the score and time etc, but nothing specific to counter your tactic.

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