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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2016 - 16.2.0 Official feedback thread

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Here's a simple example...have you ever been to a Bazaar in Turkey and have you ever tried to barter with the vendor's there, you see a pair of Levi jeans and you ask the price, the stall holder will say £30...you look at him and say " nah! too much, I'll give you £12" he than says " OK make it £25 then " you say, " nope I'll give you £17 " You then end up meeting in the middle at £20.

Negotiating for players isn't any different unless you're trying to buy a player not transfer listed, then you'll pay a lot more.

But I bet the Turkish merchant would sell you the jeans at £29 if you gave him that offer, even if he expected you to parlay his price down to £20.

EDIT: Unless we're all a part of the Life of Brian, that is ;)

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If you want to discuss transfers and negotiations further, I suggest that you open a separate thread and leave this one for feedback.

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This is ridiculous. Super ridiculous.

My review in 16.2 patch:

1. I've tried more than six different formation. All of them producing yellow card.

No one in single match that my team never did not get a card. I think this is BUG.

2. In this patch, all goalkeeper become a superman. They hard to beat. Even when it one-on-one situation.

Unbelieveble. Maybe this is BUG too..

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I made you an offer earlier that if you uploaded your save I would show you how negotiation works but so far you haven't took me up on it.

Go wild - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/337560/lfc.rar

If you want to discuss transfers and negotiations further, I suggest that you open a separate thread and leave this one for feedback.

I made a separate thread originally but it was removed and my post was put here, so don't blame us :)

But I bet the Turkish merchant would sell you the jeans at £29 if you gave him that offer, even if he expected you to parlay his price down to £20.

EDIT: Unless we're all a part of the Life of Brian, that is ;)

Exactly. He wouldn't say, no, as you are rich the price is now £40. Yet somehow people believe that when AI do that it's perfectly logical.

And finally here's a video of me negotiating with your foolproof method of going low first etc

[video=youtube;LV2PbJsaGXw]

Same result so please stop talking nonsense about how it's possible to get transfer listed players even 1% cheaper than their selling price. It is not possible in my experience. Be it transfer listed by request or club wants to get rid, be it asking price lower than his value or vice versa etc.

Still the main point of my original post was that transfer centre UI needs a few additions.

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He's listed by request which means his club are reluctantly selling, having them try to squeeze a bigger fee is reasonable enough.

Now try with a player that a club has willing transfer listed.

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I made a separate thread originally but it was removed and my post was put here, so don't blame us :)

At first it was more feedback than anything else, but a discussion developed from that, so it would be better in a separate thread to continue that discussion.

Still the main point of my original post was that transfer centre UI needs a few additions.

This is probably better off as suggestions in the wishlist thread. :thup:

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He's listed by request which means his club are reluctantly selling, having them try to squeeze a bigger fee is reasonable enough.

Now try with a player that a club has willing transfer listed.

Same result with a regen from Real Madrid - value 10m, listed for 6m, same result with transfer Ozil (and no he's not at Arsenal so it's not the case of not selling to rivals) - value 1.3m, listed for 1.3m - won't accept 1.2m.

Maybe AI just hates me? :rolleyes: Many times I've seen a good player being bought for 10m rising to 25m, I decide to bid as well and even offers of 25m upfront are negotiated to 40m.

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If you've not done so already then you could start a thread in the bugs forum & provide save games with various examples where you feel the AI is not playing fair, saves have to be before you start transfer negotiations.

SI can then take a look at all the under the hood data to see what's happening. Shooting from the hip here, a possible cause could be that rivalries &/or your history with clubs or AI managers is playing a part.

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Same result with a regen from Real Madrid - value 10m, listed for 6m, same result with transfer Ozil (and no he's not at Arsenal so it's not the case of not selling to rivals) - value 1.3m, listed for 1.3m - won't accept 1.2m.

Maybe AI just hates me? :rolleyes: Many times I've seen a good player being bought for 10m rising to 25m, I decide to bid as well and even offers of 25m upfront are negotiated to 40m.

Situations that seem strange, especially like your last example is just better off being reported in the bugs forum with a save game from before you make the offer.

If it's a bug, you'll have helped SI discover one or add another to the existing bug report. If not, you'll get a great insight into the AI reasoning.

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This is ridiculous. Super ridiculous.

My review in 16.2 patch:

1. I've tried more than six different formation. All of them producing yellow card.

No one in single match that my team never did not get a card. I think this is BUG.

2. In this patch, all goalkeeper become a superman. They hard to beat. Even when it one-on-one situation.

Unbelieveble. Maybe this is BUG too..

On number 2: keepers seem to be very good on this ME (not really sure if too good tbh) but it's offset by how terrible they are from crosses. A ball can be three yard out but they're terrified to leave their lines.

One-on-one finishing has been an issue in every FM ever imo - it's just never really been accurate. My striker with 14 finishing and composure missed five one-on-ones in a match last night! Top class players just don't score enough in those situations - but they can nail a first time volley from a deep cross when facing away from goal...

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But I bet the Turkish merchant would sell you the jeans at £29 if you gave him that offer, even if he expected you to parlay his price down to £20.

EDIT: Unless we're all a part of the Life of Brian, that is ;)

This was my point, when you have the upper hand in negotiations, you have to start low and meet somewhere in the middle, never start a few thousand less than the asking price.

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AI needs improving in the transfer market (among other places). It does not make any human sense to set an asking price of 25 pounds, receive an offer of 24 pounds and then, instead of saying either "fine, 24 it is" or "I want 24.5 or 25 exactly", you say "now I want 47". That is not "negotiating", that is madness. "Asking price" is the amount of money they say they want for the player, you can't just suddenly switch to a new asking price if someone comes with an offer that is (slightly) lower than your original asking price.

[edit] It also does not make human sense to say you are "disappointed" with an offer that is 2% lower than your asking price.

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Seems pretty straight forward. The AI would expect the user to come in lower than they are prepared to pay, so when he comes in at around the asking price, the AI thinks "sweet, I can get more here".

Did you try setting it as a non-negotiable offer for the asking price?

But that doesn't really make sense unless the seller isn't bothered about getting a sale. There are four prices in play from the seller's POV:

1) Player value

2) Minimum price they'll sell at

3) Negotiating price

4) Buyer's offer

If 4 < 2 < 3 then try to negotiate the buyer's offer up

If 4 > 2 < 3 then accept

If 4 > 3 then accept

At no point should the sellers initial negotiating price go upwards unless they are trying to put off the sale.

Anything else and the game code is behaving like the market seller in 'Life of Brian'

Oh. Twenty shekels.

Brian:Right.

Beard Seller:What?

Brian: (putting the money down) There you are...

Beard Seller:Wait a moment.

Brian:What?

Beard Seller:We're supposed to haggle.

Beard Seller:This bloke won't haggle.

etc.

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Is there anyway to get keeper to come for more crosses? Sick of seeing crosses, that seem reachable, run across the box for someone to tap in, when the keeper should be claiming them.

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Is there anyway to get keeper to come for more crosses? Sick of seeing crosses, that seem reachable, run across the box for someone to tap in, when the keeper should be claiming them.

Can you please provide examples in the ME bugs section, any help identifying keeper issues is always appreciated.

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Can you please provide examples in the ME bugs section, any help identifying keeper issues is always appreciated.

Oh I didn't realise it was a bug, makes perfect sense then.

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Ok, thanks for uploading your save.

Lets have some context first:

Its summer 2023 and you are managing Liverpool which you have been since the start of the save. You've won the EPL six times & come 2nd the other two years + won the Champion's Cup three times.

Liverpool are ranked 2nd in the world on reputation behind Real Madrid and ahead of Barcelona, Valencia & Man City while also having the highest estimated value of any club.

You have just under £325m in the bank but you have long terms loans to repay of £362m which seem to be mainly from a loan to build a new stadium. You have a wage budget of £21m a month but are only spending £13.5m as it stands.

Transfer wise you have been very active in the market both buying & selling players. Some years breaking even, some years spending more (2019/20 you spent £100m more than you recouped) but in the last three years you have recouped £494m while spending just £114m which has contributed a lot to your bank balance.

You have 39 players in your first team squad with another 44 in your U21s & a further 52 in your U18s to make a total of 135 players at your club.

You have been/are clearly working the transfer market to produce a profit and its working to some extent given the last three years but its also contributed to Liverpool failing the EPL FFP twice in the last four years.

Lets move onto transfers.

In your previous example one of the players you tried to sign was Raf Daniels from Leeds. They are a stable mid table Premiership club who finished 9th last season. They don't seem to have any money issues and are described as “Rich”. Raf joined Leeds one year ago for £8.5m, has first team squad status and three years (+1 year opt ext) left on his contract. His wages are low compared to other first team players in the squad and he only made 17 apps last season. He is unhappy because you've already had a failed attempt at trying to sign him, Leeds clearly don't want to sell him & the scouts report estimates you would have to pay £34.5m to sign him.

There seems to have been some confusion over this transfer in previous posts and the full story wasn't clear. Its not a transfer that you would expect to be able to negotiate on because clearly Leeds don't want or need to sell and the reason for the player unhappiness is a failed bid by your club. The scout has done the negotiation work for you and given you the price Leeds are willing to accept.

Overall looking over some of the other players on the shortlist a pattern has emerged. Your issue seems to be that you cannot buy a player for less than the scout estimates. In these cases where the players have been scouted and an estimated cost given the scout has done the negotiating legwork for you and you are being shown the required amount. Should a scout be that accurate? probably not IMO but I'm also not seeing much of an issue. If anything SI seem to have simplified the price issue somewhat for the users who had trouble understanding negotiation in previous versions.

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2. In this patch, all goalkeeper become a superman. They hard to beat. Even when it one-on-one situation.

Unbelieveble. Maybe this is BUG too..

Agree with this, even in the Scottish 2nd and 3rd division I come up against Neuer an De Gea every game, yet the ai gets one counter attack a game and scores first time.

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And at that Cougar and FG etc... can we leave the transfer talk out of here now... you are most welcome to discuss it elsewhere in the appropriate forum and thread though..

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Can somebody explain this pls? The guy in central circle is AF/a. Why does he go back??????

[video=youtube_share;G0pnfM7g1gA]

Edit: im in RED shirts.

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Can somebody explain this pls? The guy in central circle is AF/a. Why does he go back??????

[video=youtube_share;G0pnfM7g1gA]

Edit: im in RED shirts.

I suspect something to do with his attributes/natural position/PPMs.

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Match engine:

Still far too many goals from crosses.

Full backs on attack duty are far too overpowered picking up man of the match in most games.

Basically wide play is not balanced well enough.

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I suspect something to do with his attributes/natural position/PPMs.

I wonder, because he has no ppms, he's natural STC, his attributes are pretty average (no big deviation there). I checked it again he has "roam from position" PI. Nevertheless I would never expect forward to go back during fast counter-attack.

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I'm not one for knee jerk reactions with the game but I'm close to firing my laptop out the window

Since16.2 not 1 tactic has worked at all for me

Tactic that won me the league in season 2 as Liverpool now can barely manage a goal never mind a win. How could the ME change so much?

It took me over a full season of tweaking to get a tactic going on FM16 and now it seems like it'll take about 30 attempted saves as I'll be sacked a number of times before anything actually works

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It's really frustrating how hard it is for players, even world class, to finishing and score goals. Also, a huge amount of the few goals scored come from crosses. On the other hand, it's seems easy to defend and get clean sheets a lot. This leads to the assumption, that there's really something off with both chance creating (i'd like my AP(a/s) in the AMC strata getting most of the assists for once..) and converting, both for the player and the AI.

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I suspect something to do with his attributes/natural position/PPMs.

Come on now, let's be frank, no soccer player IRL would EVER do that in that situation. It is either a bug, or it means the PPM's can sometimes completely illogically have an influence on how a player behaves in a certain situation, and it shouldn't be so. Definitely something to be fixed.

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I wonder, because he has no ppms, he's natural STC, his attributes are pretty average (no big deviation there). I checked it again he has "roam from position" PI. Nevertheless I would never expect forward to go back during fast counter-attack.

Buggy movement i suspect, he makes the right intial move to drop inside to split the centre backs, but should then carry on running a diagonal line. Even if it was meant to be poor decision making, it's unrealistic looking poor decision making.

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Come on now, let's be frank, no soccer player IRL would EVER do that in that situation. It is either a bug, or it means the PPM's can sometimes completely illogically have an influence on how a player behaves in a certain situation, and it shouldn't be so. Definitely something to be fixed.

Absolutely, I don't think there is an explanation for that sort of behaviour. What I also sometimes see is, when there is a throw in, the receiving player will suddenly turn his back to the ball while the ball is in mid-flight, and it will hit him in his back or on the back of his head. Breaks immersion but also looks very silly :D

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Same here on the annoying finishing and the performances of keepers. With one on ones you are ok if players are at an angle but if your striker is say by the penalty spot he will always fire straight at the keeper and it has been like that for years. A nice easy side foot into the corner is rare as players just blast it straight down the keepers throat.

Stats in my last game were - Shots 18. On target 13. CCC 6. Goals 2. Shots saved. 11 Shots blocked 1.

You would think I should have scored more than two!!!!

Even the analysis doesn't work out right. 13 shots on target but 11 saved and 1 blocked = 12?? If you take into account goals as being SOT that = 14 so even more confused as none hit woodwork so even those can't be taken as on target so one out on the analysis either way.

Plus with 11 shots saved you would think their keeper would have got more than a 6.8!!

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My initial thoughts about the new ME were fairly good. However, as usual, the more I play, the more I discover the flaws.

But only two of those flaws makes the game borderline unplayable for me:

1) How key passes are determined and how it effects the ratings, especially those of the wingbacks. Any time a wingback moves close to the byline and makes a cutback pass to a midfielder entering the penalty box, it is registered as a key pass, which results in inflated wingback ratings.

2) The dreaded crosses! They are just way too accurate. The ball is pulled towards the attacking side's players like a magnet. Every single cross looks (and is) very dangerous. Moreover, the attacking side's players' reaction time is always quicker than the defenders, which makes crosses even more dangerous.

Anything else, I can live with. I am keeping my fingers crossed that SI will do a good job for the third and final patch, which they do as usual, and until then I am going back to my save in FM15 in my free time, which has its own issues with too many goals and near 100% penalty conversion rate, but otherwise providing a much better gaming experience with its stable ME.

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Just had a wing back running completely out of position to cover a central midfielder who was already covered, leaving his flank exposed. I'm not sure, but it sounds similar to the issue with wide players prepatch?

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2) The dreaded crosses! They are just way too accurate.

Actually, they aren't. If you check the analysis after the game, you'll see just how wrong that is. My team attempted 19 crosses in my last game, and connected with precisely none of them. We were well beaten by Liverpool in the game, but they themselves only completed five out of the 32 they attempted.

When you watch the highlights, you'll clearly see all the good crosses, as a blocked or intercepted cross won't show on a highlight unless it leads to a chance indirectly. Therefore a lot of people are tricked into thinking crosses are way more accurate than they actually are.

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Come on now, let's be frank, no soccer player IRL would EVER do that in that situation. It is either a bug, or it means the PPM's can sometimes completely illogically have an influence on how a player behaves in a certain situation, and it shouldn't be so. Definitely something to be fixed.

Watch any real football match and you'll see players make poor "illogical" movements on a semi regular basis for any number of reasons. Could be fitness, tiredness, mentally not picking up on a move early enough, misreading a pass, not understanding what a teammate will do etc etc.

If it gets uploaded SI can see why the movement was made and then decide if it was a bug or not.

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Watch any real football match and you'll see players make poor "illogical" movements on a semi regular basis for any number of reasons. Could be fitness, tiredness, mentally not picking up on a move early enough, misreading a pass, not understanding what a teammate will do etc etc.

If it gets uploaded SI can see why the movement was made and then decide if it was a bug or not.

Sorry, but no. There is nothing you can show me that happened in real life that resembles anything like we see in that video. You are just trying awfully hard to make any sense out of things that you see in ME that are terribly wrong. No use in doing so, really.

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Actually, they aren't. If you check the analysis after the game, you'll see just how wrong that is. My team attempted 19 crosses in my last game, and connected with precisely none of them. We were well beaten by Liverpool in the game, but they themselves only completed five out of the 32 they attempted.

When you watch the highlights, you'll clearly see all the good crosses, as a blocked or intercepted cross won't show on a highlight unless it leads to a chance indirectly. Therefore a lot of people are tricked into thinking crosses are way more accurate than they actually are.

You are right. Didn't think of that before. But still something is just not right. Maybe the accurate few crosses are too accurate, and combined with my other observation in those highlights (attacking side players reacting quicker) this results in an unreal conversion rate. Last night I played a pre-season friendly where I lost 4-3, and all four goals were from 4 successful crosses from opponent. Sure this can happen in real life maybe 1 in 100 match, but it is more or less the norm in this ME.

One thing is for sure, this is something we have never had in any ME before FM16. There is a reason why so many people are complaining. It definitely needs some adjustment, which I believe SI will address in 3rd patch.

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One thing is for sure, this is something we have never had in any ME before FM16.

Seriously? Have you already forgotten the pages and pages complaining about this in one of the early builds of FM15?

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Seriously? Have you already forgotten the pages and pages complaining about this in one of the early builds of FM15?

I remember something about the fullbacks leaving too much space for the wingers to attack, but don't remember the crosses being so effective. The end product (15.3) is definitely much better than 16.2 in that sense, no comparison imo.

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I remember something about the fullbacks leaving too much space for the wingers to attack, but don't remember the crosses being so effective. The end product (15.3) is definitely much better than 16.2 in that sense, no comparison imo.

Also, I didn't have time to do much testing after FM13 myself, due to my daughters being born :) Just started testing again recently on my own.

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I remember something about the fullbacks leaving too much space for the wingers to attack, but don't remember the crosses being so effective. The end product (15.3) is definitely much better than 16.2 in that sense, no comparison imo.

One of the biggest complaints in FM15 was overpowered crosses, almost every post in the feedback thread moaned about it. They toned it down in the final update, but it was never as bad as people made out. Despite that, I don't feel this ME is anywhere near as bad in that regard. Could it do with tweaking? Possibly, but it's not something I've really noticed, particularly since the last update's fix on fullback positioning.

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Same here on the annoying finishing and the performances of keepers. With one on ones you are ok if players are at an angle but if your striker is say by the penalty spot he will always fire straight at the keeper and it has been like that for years. A nice easy side foot into the corner is rare as players just blast it straight down the keepers throat.

Stats in my last game were - Shots 18. On target 13. CCC 6. Goals 2. Shots saved. 11 Shots blocked 1.

You would think I should have scored more than two!!!!

Even the analysis doesn't work out right. 13 shots on target but 11 saved and 1 blocked = 12?? If you take into account goals as being SOT that = 14 so even more confused as none hit woodwork so even those can't be taken as on target so one out on the analysis either way.

Plus with 11 shots saved you would think their keeper would have got more than a 6.8!!

I've had similar experiences many times and I've started thinking morale has a HUGE effect on finishing. I couldn't score for my life for several games, then had a team meeting to boost morale and suddenly put 4 past Real Madrid.

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I've had similar experiences many times and I've started thinking morale has a HUGE effect on finishing. I couldn't score for my life for several games, then had a team meeting to boost morale and suddenly put 4 past Real Madrid.

It really doesn't have the impact you think.

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Youngsters wage requests are stupid as mentioned throughout the forums. Sort it out please.

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You are right. Didn't think of that before. But still something is just not right. Maybe the accurate few crosses are too accurate, and combined with my other observation in those highlights (attacking side players reacting quicker) this results in an unreal conversion rate. Last night I played a pre-season friendly where I lost 4-3, and all four goals were from 4 successful crosses from opponent. Sure this can happen in real life maybe 1 in 100 match, but it is more or less the norm in this ME.

One thing is for sure, this is something we have never had in any ME before FM16. There is a reason why so many people are complaining. It definitely needs some adjustment, which I believe SI will address in 3rd patch.

I think the defenders reacting slowly is a pervasive problem in this ME. You see it with long balls and through balls as well (and even just dribbling runs sometimes) but in those cases it doesn't create an automatic goal because the keeper is in good position and the defenders can catch up. But when defenders react too slowly to a cross, the receiver basically has a point blank shot on an open goal. Regardless of how good your keeper is, the chances of him making a save are slim.

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]But when defenders react too slowly to a cross, the receiver basically has a point blank shot on an open goal. Regardless of how good your keeper is, the chances of him making a save are slim.

In fairness, that's exactly how it works in real life too.

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It really doesn't have the impact you think.

Then I'm at a loss. I'm scoring a pathetic 1.2 goals per game in the league, and suddenly I put 4 past the top club in the world, with a depleted squad no less. This happens to come after a team meeting that raises morale, plus I have high bonuses for continental play. So it's really hard for me to believe it's not motivation/morale related. If it's not, then I guess it's just stupid dumb luck? I'm starting to think a great deal of the way we analyze our FM experiences is just us being fooled by randomness.

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In fairness, that's exactly how it works in real life too.

Right, but if defenders are reacting too slowly across the board and keepers are extremely efficient, that's why it would result in more crossing goals than goals from other sources like long balls over the top and through balls.

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Could be motivation in the sense that players have a 'important match' attribute too, which means against the big sides they will give extra, equally against smaller sides... they won't?

Essentially, there are any number of factors for things happening in game... pretty hard to pinpoint what it is.

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Then I'm at a loss. I'm scoring a pathetic 1.2 goals per game in the league, and suddenly I put 4 past the top club in the world, with a depleted squad no less. This happens to come after a team meeting that raises morale, plus I have high bonuses for continental play. So it's really hard for me to believe it's not motivation/morale related. If it's not, then I guess it's just stupid dumb luck? I'm starting to think a great deal of the way we analyze our FM experiences is just us being fooled by randomness.

The one thing people always forget when they're trying to analyse a game is that there's another team on the pitch. They'll have their own off days, their own tactical own goals, their own issues with morale, etc etc. It's not all just about what you've done, there's another manager in the opposition dugout.

Over and above that though, motivation and morale are vital elements to a football side's progress. One look at the fortunes of Leicester and Chelsea so far this season illustrates that perfectly.

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Right, but if defenders are reacting too slowly across the board and keepers are extremely efficient, that's why it would result in more crossing goals than goals from other sources like long balls over the top and through balls.

The vast majority of my goals are from through balls or passes. Crosses are a very distant third.

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Well it's obvious at this point that I was, in fact, being fooled by randomness (or something else).

My very next game after the brilliant Real Madrid performance was another boilerplate 1-0 home win against a mediocre team, where I managed 10/13 shots on target but only 1 goal. I cannot wrap my head around why my finishing is so routinely terrible. It's really killing my enjoyment.

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