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Cleon

The Art of Possession Football

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Hi,

This entire thread has been really insightful for someone who has always struggled with the tactical side of FM. I've attempted to apply what I've learnt and understood to my current save, and so far whilst my possession has been pretty good, I have spotted a few issues that I'd like to get some advice on if possible.

A couple of things to be aware of before I get into the issues I think I've spotted:

  • I only found this thread at the end of my current pre-season, so 3 games I've played so far have all been competitive and the familiarity of the tactic is still pretty low;
  • Fulham, IRL, turned over the majority of its squad in the summer so there's still a long way to go before the squad has blended;
  • I appreciate that the idea of this thread is not to copy the tactic verbatim but to apply the ideas to your own tactic. However, being tactically inept, at least on FM, my tactic is based on the one from the original post by @Cleon

Now, onto the issues.

Players occupying the same space

I have noticed when watching the matches back that quite often my IF and F9, or my AP and RPM occupy the same space, and often almost sit on top of each other...

IF F9 Same Space 2.jpg

#20 is my IF, #16 is my F9.

AP RMP Same Space.jpg

#23 is my RMP, #10 my AP.

You can see the latter especially when viewing the heatmaps...

AP Heatmap.jpgRPM Heatmap.jpg

vs. Preston. Left is AP, right is RPM.

AP Heatmap 02.jpgRPM Heatmap 02.jpg

vs. Wycombe. Left is AP, right is RPM.

I've also noticed that on occasion, 2 or more players will run to occupy the same space...

Start.jpgEnd.jpg

Start of a move on the left, 3 seconds later on the right when 3 players have all run into the same space. 

Wasting chances

Now, something else that is evident (IMO) when watching these matches back is that against teams who park the bus we're pretty toothless and waste what chances we do create. For instance, here's an example of when my IF passed short to my F9 instead of taking one of the more appropriate options, and then my F9 taking a long shot rather than making either of the two passes that were still on... 

Should Pass 2.jpgShould Pass.jpg

The IF could play a through ball to the BBM who's unmarked, or cross out to the FB. Instead he passes it to the F9 who's already tightly marked. When the F9 received the ball, he too could play in either the BBM or RB but chooses to blast a long shot instead.

Here are a few more example of my F9, this time away at Preston, taking long shots and wasting the chance when there's at least 1, if not more, other players available to pass it too...

Wasted 01.jpgWasted 02.jpg

 

Wasted 03.jpgWasted 04.jpg

The wasting of chances only appears to affect us when we're playing teams who park the bus and sit deep. For instance, here are the tactics used by both Wycombe and Preston...

vs Wycombe.jpgvs Preston.jpg

Wycombe we beat 1-0, by a fluke goal that I'm positive was actually an attempted cross by the RB. Preston we drew 0-0.

For comparison, here's how Newcastle lined up against us...

vs Newcastle.jpg

Far more attacking, and who were favourites to win and who had a much better team. We outclassed and outplayed them, winning 2-0 with relatively high possession. It was much easier to open up Newcastle than either of the other two teams we've played, and as such we didn't resort to wasting chances with long shots.

If interested, you can find the PKMs for the three matches I've played so far here:

Fulham v Newcastle.pkm

Fulham v Wycombe.pkm

Preston v Fulham.pkm

Any help or advice on how to overcome either of these two issues would be greatly appreciated.

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I can't really tell from the images what roles and duties you have allocated, but an IF will cut inside and if you have another player in the same zone and on the same support duty they will  be close. You could choose to use the PIs to get them to stay wider and get them to do small things that make em avoid each other. Having said that I use both the 41221 and the 4231 in my current Youtube saves, and this only really happens when I intentionally want to overload one side of the pitch.

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@Rashidi Here are my roles and duties, along with team instructions...

Screen Shot 2017-01-27 at 17.31.37.jpgScreen Shot 2017-01-27 at 17.32.24.jpg

I've also just noticed that my RPM has positioning of 10, and my two APs have 8 and 7 respectively. Could this be a contributing factor?

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1 hour ago, SuperFulhamFC said:

@Rashidi Here are my roles and duties, along with team instructions...

Screen Shot 2017-01-27 at 17.31.37.jpgScreen Shot 2017-01-27 at 17.32.24.jpg

I've also just noticed that my RPM has positioning of 10, and my two APs have 8 and 7 respectively. Could this be a contributing factor?

Positioning only affects defensive position. You have to look at "Off the Ball" and "Anticipation" stats.

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13 hours ago, jorgvandervloed said:

@etcetera

I can see the images just fine...:)

Really strange, I can't access any content from sisportscentre website (where the screens are uploaded to). Link just says "Sorry, the parameters you provided were not valid"

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On 3/7/2017 at 15:30, etcetera said:

Hi Cleon,

Any chance the screens from the OP can be reuploaded? 

Cheers

Same here...

 

can't see any of the images neither go on Cleon's website!

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On ‎14‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 09:31, jorgvandervloed said:

@etcetera @guidwyer

I know Cleon has taken the site down for now at least. Not sure if it will get back up...

Is there anything I can help you with as I can still see the images as of today:)

Yes!

Can you save and send me the pictures?

 

thanks

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57 minutes ago, jorgvandervloed said:

@guidwyer @herne79

What screens do you want exactly? Plus, they're not mine so not sure I'm allowed to use them...

I don't want any screens?  All are visible to me.

@guidwyer Don't post your email address on a public forum.  Use a PM if you need to mention that.

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On 12/4/2015 at 10:47, Cleon said:

It would only be a minimal visible change at best. But if it makes players closer together then that can be a bad thing as possession requires space and movement. You risk reducing that in a more fluid system. But like I mention in the article, think of the team shape settings as highlighted in the article and it's simpler and much easier to understand what it does.

I have to disagree with this as i play a possession style with Notts County playing with fluid sometimes very fluid team shape which makes the team more compact and provides more short passing options. I believe more structured shapes better suited to counter attacking. Looking at your screenshots for possession stats they're similar to mine. I guess structured and fluid is ok for possession, it seems. The TI's and mentality have the real say in determining how effective possession football is (but also quality of players and roles/duties).

Edited by cns180784

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20 hours ago, herne79 said:

I don't want any screens?  All are visible to me.

@guidwyer Don't post your email address on a public forum.  Use a PM if you need to mention that.

It was more if you could advise if i'm allowed to use the screens!

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So I have been reading through the thread and I am non the wiser. Wondering if anyone could help and think from a different perspective.

I am RBL, stuck in mid-table (11th) in the Bundesliga. A quick look at the table tells me one thing. I do not score enough goals (7th in the league).

  • I keep possession extremely well. (59.71% - Best in league by 5.04%) - Pass Completion is 82%, Averaging 538 completed passes per game.
  • We deal with the ball in the air (66% headers won - 1st in League)
  • Whilst we keep the ball well we still put in fair amount of crosses. (6th best success ratio & 5th total crosses in League)
  • 1st in Tackles won in the league, with 74% success rate.

So defensively we deal with the ball well in the air and at feet. We put in a lot of tackles considering most of the time we actually have possession. When we have the ball, our passing seems successful and we move it around well whilst maintaining a threat from crosses even though we play a possession game. (Perhaps I could considering avoiding crosses more to encourage us to bring the ball central?).

Finally Shots..

  • Shots on Target Ratio - 45% - 5th In league
  • Shots on Target - 149 - 2nd in League

We are in 2nd by quite a distance, so you would think we would be scoring a lot more considering our on target ratio isnt bad. My AML and St average 3 a game, with shots coming from elsewhere too. My advanced playmaker as made the most key passes in the league (36 in 20 games). Most of our goals seem to come early or late in the half, mostly assisted by through balls or crosses. What does surprise me a little bit is the lack of assists from outside the area (like below).

 

ey.png

what.png

 

So we seem to be getting the chances but I dont know why we arnt scoring more. Could it be the players arnt gifted enough. I have Ben Yedder and Timo Werner who I would say are decent.

Possession football on FM has always been a struggle for me.

Edited by MattLDempsey

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I apologise if something similar has been mentioned before, I would be here for hours if I went through all the replies and checked.

Are there any particularly desirable stats or PPMs for the defensive midfielder? Or any other tactical tweaks that make him more effective? As far as I'm aware, the pivot is the most important player in these kind of systems for recycling possession and building attacks, so what kind of player is most suitable?

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5 hours ago, fish18ish said:

I apologise if something similar has been mentioned before, I would be here for hours if I went through all the replies and checked.

Are there any particularly desirable stats or PPMs for the defensive midfielder? Or any other tactical tweaks that make him more effective? As far as I'm aware, the pivot is the most important player in these kind of systems for recycling possession and building attacks, so what kind of player is most suitable?

The DM in Cleon's post is a DM on support dury. He is not a pivot. He moves forward into midfield regularly.

But if u want him to hold up, u can always use the Hold Position PI.

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4 hours ago, nightwalker22 said:

Is there any chance that the pictures will be re-uploaded?

I can see all pictures in my browser, which ones do you need?

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27 minutes ago, YasoKuul said:

I can see all pictures in my browser, which ones do you need?

For some reason I can't see any.

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A Question about roles.The CM duo (RPM-B2B).Is there any way to replace those roles and still play the same good.

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9 hours ago, adisbegic10 said:

A Question about roles.The CM duo (RPM-B2B).Is there any way to replace those roles and still play the same good.

Yes. 

Remember, this thread isn't about simply copying the tactic, it's about understanding the principles and applying those to your own save.  The key is ensuring the roles you pick balance with the rest of your system.

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Wanted a second opinion on this on, Idea is taht WP cuts inside and gets to left side to link up with WB(A), DLP(D) holds position for recycling, on right side FB(S) is told to sit narrower and cut inside, that's mine try to replicate IWB(S) movement without him having roam and more risky passes PI, BBM is told to Get further forward, idea is to use him as runner from deep, and DLF(S) is there to link up WP(S) BBM and W(A) especially for wingers sake so he isn't isolated, if it was a technical player I would've gone with F9 instead of DLF(S) but with this setup I think I have covered all terms, the width, the passing lanes, the connection between roles and overall balance, other PI's for players are for strikers to perform high block and for wingers to perform medium block duties.

 

I'd like to hear second opinion if some areas would be overcrowded by too many players in them and if BBM can be in truth used as deep runner, thanks in advance.

59e17cc95322a_KidderminsterHarriers_Overview.thumb.png.fc69eb4490d079a44e75a6cfb8b3ded9.png

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6 hours ago, Vadermage said:

Wanted a second opinion on this on, Idea is taht WP cuts inside and gets to left side to link up with WB(A), DLP(D) holds position for recycling, on right side FB(S) is told to sit narrower and cut inside, that's mine try to replicate IWB(S) movement without him having roam and more risky passes PI, BBM is told to Get further forward, idea is to use him as runner from deep, and DLF(S) is there to link up WP(S) BBM and W(A) especially for wingers sake so he isn't isolated, if it was a technical player I would've gone with F9 instead of DLF(S) but with this setup I think I have covered all terms, the width, the passing lanes, the connection between roles and overall balance, other PI's for players are for strikers to perform high block and for wingers to perform medium block duties.

 

I'd like to hear second opinion if some areas would be overcrowded by too many players in them and if BBM can be in truth used as deep runner, thanks in advance.

59e17cc95322a_KidderminsterHarriers_Overview.thumb.png.fc69eb4490d079a44e75a6cfb8b3ded9.png

I like this 442 and it's not that different from a few I've used and other people on here. One thing I would say though and that I mentioned in the article, is the 442 isn't that great for possession based tactics.

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1 hour ago, Cleon said:

One thing I would say though and that I mentioned in the article, is the 442 isn't that great for possession based tactics.

Just to echo this and fill in a bit more, in the 4-4-2 I use (and have written about) technically it's a 4-4-1-1 using the STCL + AMCR positions for my two "strikers".  Whilst it was never a key intention to create a possession based tactic, such a simple positional change made a significant difference to the amount of possession (I see 60%+).

Obviously tactical settings are a large part as well, but the move away from a "flat" 4-4-2 can make quite a difference if more possession is what you are after.

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1 hour ago, Cleon said:

I like this 442 and it's not that different from a few I've used and other people on here. One thing I would say though and that I mentioned in the article, is the 442 isn't that great for possession based tactics.

I'm aware that 442 isn't best for possession styles especially due to the fact that you lack midfield depth with only 2 players in there, but mine idea was to make passing options so that players join the middle to even that battle and to do so without loosing 442 strength which is wide play, by doing so I feel it makes a variety of options available for mine team when in possession while still providing decent cover when I'm in defense, final idea is to use STCR(DLF) to mark opposing midfielder so I can get 4411 style when I'm defending, and I don't want to use DF since his passing is really short but DLF gives greater variety to attack, that was the ideak DLF helps with def bottle necks and helps with midfield domination....

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1 minute ago, herne79 said:

Just to echo this and fill in a bit more, in the 4-4-2 I use (and have written about) technically it's a 4-4-1-1 using the STCL + AMCR positions for my two "strikers".  Whilst it was never a key intention to create a possession based tactic, such a simple positional change made a significant difference to the amount of possession (I see 60%+).

Obviously tactical settings are a large part as well, but the move away from a "flat" 4-4-2 can make quite a difference if more possession is what you are after.

I'm aware of the insight you provided on positional switch and domination with slight tweak, I liked that topic, but idea here is to also have transitional options, and like really good options, I have players in each strata for transitional play an quick goal smashing provided it plays like I imagined...

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Thanks Cleon for this brilliant thread, I learned a lot from this and your other posts. I created a nice possession tactic in FM18 based on the given information.

I wanted to play attacking football but my club is only a mid-table team and so I decided to use Control. The choice of the team shape was a little bit more complicated as understand why you used Highly Structured but I wanted my players to have a little bit more creative freedom and therefore selected Structured. I only use the team instruction Retain Possession as it's a "must-have" for possession tactis and I had the impression that other instructions are counterproductive  for my team. More Closing Down for example destroyed the good defensive behaviour I had without instructing my players to close down more/much more. I also use only the PI Shoot Less Often for my players in DM and CM strata to avoid too many long shots.

Your setup of players and team instructions was a good start but I noticed some problems. My team played too slow and therefore was toothless in some games . I know that I've other players with other strength and weaknesses and experimented a lot with different roles/combinations. The lone support-forward missed support with mostly support roles around him and decided to use a DLFa to be my main goalscorer and help with build-up play instead of your idea to use a IFa. I also made my wide backs a little bit more attacking and my CMD a little bit more conservative. In addition I changed one CDd to BPDc - this helps against high pressing teams and against through-balls as a result of the high defensive line due to Control mentality. This is my actual (and I hope final) setup:

               G(d)

WB(s) CD(d) BPD(c) FB(a)

               DM(d)

          AP(s)   BBM(s)

AP(s)                         IF(s)

               DLF(a)

Edited by YasoKuul

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55 minutes ago, YasoKuul said:

I only use the team instruction Retain Possession as it's a "must-have" for possession tactis

It's not a "must have".

Try not to think in such absolute terms.  Tactical settings are rarely (if ever) "must haves".  Can Retain Possession be useful?  Yes.  Must you have it?  No.

Understand what Retain Possession does (or any other tactical setting for that matter) and then consider how it would benefit your chosen formation, roles, players and style of play. 

For example, you are using 2 Advanced Playmakers.  What do they do?  (Look at their default PIs).  Why have you chosen those roles?  How do those roles compliment your possession based system?  How does Retain Possession improve their play style?

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27 minutes ago, herne79 said:

For example, you are using 2 Advanced Playmakers.  What do they do?  (Look at their default PIs).  Why have you chosen those roles?  How do those roles compliment your possession based system?  How does Retain Possession improve their play style?

Thank you for this, herne.

I also put a question behind wether I would like to pass the ball with no risk on a lower tempo or pass the ball quick, with low risk - the difference I see between having possession fm-wise and playing a possession-based style, creating opportunities by passing the ball around.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb herne79:

It's not a "must have".

Try not to think in such absolute terms.  Tactical settings are rarely (if ever) "must haves".  Can Retain Possession be useful?  Yes.  Must you have it?  No.

Understand what Retain Possession does (or any other tactical setting for that matter) and then consider how it would benefit your chosen formation, roles, players and style of play. 

For example, you are using 2 Advanced Playmakers.  What do they do?  (Look at their default PIs).  Why have you chosen those roles?  How do those roles compliment your possession based system?  How does Retain Possession improve their play style?

Sorry for the missunderstanding, I used the quotation marks to illustrate that it's not a must-have but very useful for possession based tactics - my fault as english isn't my first language.

I know that the AP have the PI More Risky Passes -the BPD as well- and it seem a little bit  counterproductive but I noticed that it's very helpful to have some players with this instruction to be a little bit more unpredictable. 

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Cleon.

 

Just finished my first season (2015/2016) and took Swansea to 4th using this thread. Massive thank you for that!!!!

 

I made some slight tweaks to the basic tactic; The right back was moved to an attack duty and I experimented at the end of the season with moving Ayew to the AM (L) position as a raumdeuter. I limited the TIs to 'play out of defence' and 'lower tempo'.

Only averaged 53% possession throughout the season but I managed 60+ in 5 of the league matches.

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I've been using the possession philosophy proposed by Cleon in this thread and I must say, I am thoroughly enjoying the results. At home we are dominant, away from home however I am struggling. I've tried adapting the roles to be a little more defence minded and tried to change from control > defence/counter but I'm not getting a lot of joy. Any tips?
 

home.thumb.png.8c9629c85303474935ba25fd940d267c.png
Home Form is great

 

away.thumb.png.5035a55c8ece582b7ff5f0c16d01be88.png
Away - not so great

 

By the way, I just had the most heart-attack inducing game ever on FM using the possession tactic with Palace in their second  Europa League game. Amazing result, but I had to lie down in a dark room afterwards!

 

full-time.png

Edited by hotchilidamo

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So, I've been a long time Pep's fan, I've a dream of being a coach myself in the future, but I don't think that's anything to do with this, so I will pass to the problem:

After managed to get Fleetwood to the championship, in the mid of the season I would get Fleet to the Premier, I did accept a job at Valencia. Finished in 10th position and next season I managed to get a 2nd place, after that season I got 2nd place again and after that I won the La Liga. I increased the number of goals scored a lot from season to season, but one thing I noticed too is that I have less possession than I had in the past seasons. 

 

I know I can't expect to have big possession every game and FM doesn't count possession like real life nor the ME can recreate certain situations like real life, but sometimes I feel like I have the ball much more time than the opposition and I still see possession between 55-57%. So, what I did? I didnt care for the stat that much and won the La Liga.

 

I've been playing in this formation, counter-attack and high tempo: 

SK(s)

WB(s) - CD(d) - CD(d) - CWB(a)/WB(a)

DLP(d)

DLP(s) - AP(a)

IF(a/s) - IF(s)

F9(s)

 

This season, I did read this thread and made some changes like turning the left IF to AP(s), Ap(a) to RPM, DLP(s) and DLP(d) to CM(s) and DMC(s) respectively. I did not turn the DLP(s) to BBM because I didn't like that much that Alená, who goes deep to get the ball, was going all out to the front and I don't feel that should be his job. I want him to play like Xavi, but DLP(s) is too static to give others a pass line. I did love RPM, but I don't know what I win to articulate him with a AP in the left. sometimes I see the two in the same position very deep and I would like him to get a little forward than that, but I don't like that the AP(a) doens't have a role in the defensive transition either.

 

d785976cdc6277c948e2251bb2cd6daf.png

 

I really think that his position (17) should be between the number 15 and number 19, but he rarely get in that position so I will see a long ball to the left wingerback that will win the back of the other team's defensive line. I know that maybe I win space for the leftback with this, but like you see the opposition doesnt care at all for my AP and I lose a unit in the last third that could create good chances.

 

Also, I chose these TIs:

31a458461967f02cc7f7ea7d0a33919d.png

Sorry for the screenshot being in portuguese, but I think everyone can still understand what are the options ticked. 

Also, sorry for any gramatic fail, I understand a lot better english than how to write.

Edited by Razor940

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On 28/08/2018 at 17:43, Razor940 said:

I've been playing in this formation, counter-attack and high tempo

How do you expect to have high(er) possession when playing with high tempo?

 

11 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

Is a Segundo Volante something one could fit into possession football?

I don't see any reason why not.

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First of all, my congratulations for the topic.

As a beginner in the world of FM tactics on my own, what I would like to know was if this type of possession is of the type "we want to win and dominate the game" or if it is the "if we have the ball we do not lose the game" ?

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3 hours ago, PequenoGenio said:

First of all, my congratulations for the topic.

As a beginner in the world of FM tactics on my own, what I would like to know was if this type of possession is of the type "we want to win and dominate the game" or if it is the "if we have the ball we do not lose the game" ?

Neither. I believe he was going for "possession with purpose" or "possession with attacking intent". I'm sure @Cleon will correct me if I'm wrong. :)

He wanted to show it was possible to make a possession tactic on higher mentality. And in this case he also showed (surprised a lot of people) that it can be done with Highly Structured shape whereas a lot of us use more fluid shapes.

Bottom line is that there is no perfect mentality or perfect shape to make the best possession tactic. It's about balancing all of it out and creating whatever it is that you visualize in your head. You just have to learn and understand what each tool does to the overall picture.

Cleon lists all the instructions that are helpful and then explains the reasons why he has chosen what he has.

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7 hours ago, yonko said:

Neither. I believe he was going for "possession with purpose" or "possession with attacking intent". I'm sure @Cleon will correct me if I'm wrong. :)

He wanted to show it was possible to make a possession tactic on higher mentality. And in this case he also showed (surprised a lot of people) that it can be done with Highly Structured shape whereas a lot of us use more fluid shapes.

Bottom line is that there is no perfect mentality or perfect shape to make the best possession tactic. It's about balancing all of it out and creating whatever it is that you visualize in your head. You just have to learn and understand what each tool does to the overall picture.

Cleon lists all the instructions that are helpful and then explains the reasons why he has chosen what he has.

Spot on :brock:

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My only doubt it's how to turn this "big" amount of possession in goals?

I want to have the ball, but also wanted score goals...

 

not sure if i'm explained this in the right way...

 

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33 minutes ago, PequenoGenio said:

My only doubt it's how to turn this "big" amount of possession in goals?

I want to have the ball, but also wanted score goals...

 

not sure if i'm explained this in the right way...

 

I explained how I did it in the posts at the start of the thread. I scored goals and had possession but the possession wasn't pointless passing, it was very attack minded. Possession is pointless if you aren't using it to be a threat, you can't really win games.

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On 12/09/2018 at 17:58, Experienced Defender said:

How do you expect to have high(er) possession when playing with high tempo?

 

I don't see any reason why not.

Because higher tempo means the players will pass the ball faster? And maybe because Pep said that and that's what his teams do on the pitch? 

 

"I will like to play in a high high speed. To change the rhythm you must play at a huge speed, because It’s only when you play with a huge speed that you can change the rhythm. You have to try to stay aggressive without the ball and with the ball we try to play quickly but in the right moment to make a change in rhythm."

 

I know that faster pace on the ball means more errors too, but also means that your player won't have a passive possession and will pass the ball fast so they break the opposition,

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Higher tempo is more demanding on players' decisions, and actually I disagree that playing faster = breaking the opposition.  What you are describing means the right pass and the right run at the right time.  When players have more time to survey the situation the likelihood of that happening can go up.  If you are trying to break the opposition in a regular fashion, then you have to play some higher risk passes, which means turnover of possession.  Do you think Pep at Fulham would have the same kind of success with their players playing the same style he plays with City?  Obviously his philosophy works, but he has the right players to make it work as well.  There are different ways to have high possession numbers, AND still be a goal threat.

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I'm at the level of nerd/sad that I've actually been thinking about some of the discussion in this thread while at work today, also thinking about @Jebedaias's thread where he mentioned trying to defend against crosses.  @Razor940 I actually just played a game that I thought I would share with you where I used low tempo and achieved good possession.  I've also settled on a base tactic and then created a possession version of that tactic using the principles from Cleon's OP material and tried to make it work in my current system just on the fundamentals of the style alone.  I wanted to see if there are things I can improve or maybe that I don't pick up on that other people notice.

So here's some figures from the game.  I played 4-3-3 (4-1-2-2-1) and Lille played a counter 4-4-2.  

766909439_Lilleshots.thumb.jpg.9aabc7cd2e0cc6b0ea5b269cf61664b9.jpg169887051_LeHavreshots.thumb.jpg.532f9e135855708da6799a1dab7ec22a.jpg

1497514437_matchstats.thumb.jpg.a46400725da2fd3128fc899779c68c99.jpg

I managed 62% possession which isn't crazy, but pretty good also.  Razor mentioned playing fast to unlock defenses.  Well I've been thinking about this really because the last time I made an adjustment to my tactic I simply lowered the tempo one notch to "lower", and suddenly my team is playing nicer football.  It was such a noticeable shift that it gave me more ideas about a style of play.  Players took a bit longer on the ball, but when they did pass it seemed like the ratio of dangerous to standard passes went up significantly.  So after noticing that, I set all three of my midfielders on more risky passes, and set the DLP on more direct.  So the style is keeping possession, but always looking for a dangerous ball out to the wings or played through into the box.  So the thing I wanted to show here was the combination of 62% possession with 2 CCC (even though this stat in the game is still fairly off, imo), nearly 50% shots on target, 90% pass completion compared to 77%, and the fact that they had zero shots on target.  Given that they are playing a counter 4-4-2, they clearly didn't succeed in getting shots off from inside the box resulting from crosses.  So like I mentioned to Jeb what I do is actually really simple and just keep them from having time on the ball.  Front three close down much more, tackle harder, mark tighter, and the mezzala just closes down more.  Fullbacks close down more, mark tighter.   The season is still really early, but here's my defensive record so far.

1793878118_defensiverecord.thumb.jpg.566d78bd04d8b2f8f14804d8dda57086.jpg

While I'm very happy with the defensive record, I have to say it dramatically improved as a result of reading back through this thread.  I decided to focus more on defense this season in that I'm looking to win games 1-0, but specifically when I go up by a goal I have been trying to then just keep the ball and be happy to kill the game off that way.  Usually though we end up with more by the end when the other team has to go for it.  Here are the league possession stats, and also my two tactics (base tactic and possession version).  I'm happy with the style of play and overall happy with the possession stats, but they aren't remarkable.  I think I just need to keep improving the players in each position and things are probably fine, but like I said it's a lot of stuff taken from this thread that makes up the defensive possession tactic.

245343127_posstats.thumb.jpg.304ffa63d892b0876d09274194737cb7.jpg

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Edited by Analog

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15 hours ago, Razor940 said:

Because higher tempo means the players will pass the ball faster? And maybe because Pep said that and that's what his teams do on the pitch? 

 

"I will like to play in a high high speed. To change the rhythm you must play at a huge speed, because It’s only when you play with a huge speed that you can change the rhythm. You have to try to stay aggressive without the ball and with the ball we try to play quickly but in the right moment to make a change in rhythm."

 

I know that faster pace on the ball means more errors too, but also means that your player won't have a passive possession and will pass the ball fast so they break the opposition,

 Ok, a higher tempo doesn't mean you cannot have more possession of the ball than the OP, but when using a higher tempo you are certainly likely to have less possession overall than with a lower (or normal) tempo. If you manage a top team like City, then you can play with a higher tempo with more success than with a weaker team. However, if you want to have relatively high levels of possession while playing with HT, then you should combine it with shorter passing. And, as @Analog rightly pointed out, playing faster is not = breaking the opposition.

Finally, the higher the tempo you are using, the more stamina, technical proficiency and tactical (mental) intelligence your players need to have.

 

6 hours ago, Analog said:

 

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Thank you both, I'll try slower tempo combined with Standard. I will hit the thread after make a couple games.

Anw, I think my side at Valencia is pretty pretty good tho. Players like Alená, Zivkovic, Lo Celso, Tousart and Lo Faso are what I would expect from a team that wants to play with this philosophy.

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1 hour ago, Razor940 said:

I'll try slower tempo combined with Standard

I think you could comfortably go with normal tempo with Valencia, but of course, it's up to you to decide. And tempo is just one of many aspects of tactics, so you need to set all instructions (including players' roles and duties) in a way that will provide good balance and will not contradict each other.

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12 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I think you could comfortably go with normal tempo with Valencia, but of course, it's up to you to decide. And tempo is just one of many aspects of tactics, so you need to set all instructions (including players' roles and duties) in a way that will provide good balance and will not contradict each other.

I know, but one thing I'm having hard time is with TI vs PI. Since I play FM (since 2008) I always read that PIs are not necessary if the instructions are already ticked in the team panel. Also, I read years ago that PIs can have a bad effect on players, because they will have too much to do.

 

Other things that I'm having dificulties is the opposition instructions.

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3 minutes ago, Razor940 said:

I always read that PIs are not necessary if the instructions are already ticked in the team panel. Also, I read years ago that PIs can have a bad effect on players, because they will have too much to do.

PIs are not necessary, so you don't need to use them always and/or for all players, just selectively. Setting the right roles and duties is more important than PIs. As with PIs, you also don't need to use all the available TIs. And you can always make some tweaks during a match when you notice that something in your tactic is wrong. I always watch whole games and analyze carefully, so I can react as soon as I see that things are going differently from what I want.

 

9 minutes ago, Razor940 said:

Other things that I'm having dificulties is the opposition instructions.

Many FM players struggle with OIs. I tend to use them selectively, but I don't use the same OIs each time. It depends on my tactic and formation in a specific match,  on who is the OP and which formation they use and the types of OP players whom I need to target with OIs. And you should always take into account your own players' PIs, especially defensive ones, when you apply OIs. I always try to visualize various situations on the pitch when thinking about OIs.

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