The Art of Possession Football

[YasoKuul]

On 7.12.2015 at 12:24, herne79 said:

Thanks for taking the time to write this up Cleon.

I'd been doing some head scratching with my Valencia 4-2-3-1 tactic, and some of the points raised here sent me off in a different direction which really clarified things for me. I'm now leading the La Liga possession table (just a smidge below 60%) with a tight defence and lethal attack.

Just as a side note, I tried experimenting with the Stay on Feet shout, thinking that may help a little with possession (ie., if you are on your feet more you can be more active with passing options and finding space). However, if anything I found the opposite to be true. Rethinking this, and applying the "chess clock" logic, I think what actually happens is players basically back off a bit more waiting for a well timed tackle (which may never arise) rather than making a challenge. That gives the opposition more time on the ball, thus leaving their chess clock ticking for longer.

I usually prefer the deep 4231 (DM + MC/L/R), such as I play with my long term Espanyol save since Beta, however I wanted to challenge myself further with the MC + AMC/L/R version, which I feel is now pretty well balanced thanks to the principles laid out in the OP. For reference, below is how things look now, with only 4 TIs and a couple of PIs for outfield players being used. I may make the odd small change as things play out on pitch (the occasional change from winger to IF, fullbacks being made slightly more or less attacking, def line altered, that kind of thing) but nothing drastic, and I tend to leave things alone as much as I can.

Are you using Control and Very Structured like Cleon?

[thomas166]

I've tried to use some of Cleon's ideas in a 4-5-1, but didn't have enough players in one position and way too many in another, so I've tried to get it working in a 4-4-2 and have so far come up with this.

 

Admittedly, I've only played one friendly with it but at the moment my concern is with my AMR. I don't think IF is the role that is going to work best in this case but I'm not sure what would be a suitable replaement.

I think IF isn't working because the AP drifts quite far inside and with the F9 playing from deep, the IF is overcrowding the same space as those two.

AP wouldn't be a good idea I think, due to the DLP, AP on the left and the F9 all being playmaker roles, it would be too much creativity and similarly too the IF, overcrowding. ALso, the left back would have to go more attacking which then imbalances the defensive side of things.

I'm not sure Winger would work as that's primarily crosses which would be detrimental to the posession stats, although it would offer a vastly different supply option which would help when passing through the defence isn't working.

I don't know too much about the RMD role but in the description it mentions that defensive duties can often be neglected which I don't want.

I know even less about the WTM and the description isn't the most helpful so I can't make a judgement on that :/

 

Which role could work well with this setup, or is it another role that needs tweaking?

[Cleon]

6 hours ago, thomas166 said:

I've tried to use some of Cleon's ideas in a 4-5-1, but didn't have enough players in one position and way too many in another, so I've tried to get it working in a 4-4-2 and have so far come up with this.

 

Admittedly, I've only played one friendly with it but at the moment my concern is with my AMR. I don't think IF is the role that is going to work best in this case but I'm not sure what would be a suitable replaement.

I think IF isn't working because the AP drifts quite far inside and with the F9 playing from deep, the IF is overcrowding the same space as those two.

AP wouldn't be a good idea I think, due to the DLP, AP on the left and the F9 all being playmaker roles, it would be too much creativity and similarly too the IF, overcrowding. ALso, the left back would have to go more attacking which then imbalances the defensive side of things.

I'm not sure Winger would work as that's primarily crosses which would be detrimental to the posession stats, although it would offer a vastly different supply option which would help when passing through the defence isn't working.

I don't know too much about the RMD role but in the description it mentions that defensive duties can often be neglected which I don't want.

I know even less about the WTM and the description isn't the most helpful so I can't make a judgement on that :/

 

Which role could work well with this setup, or is it another role that needs tweaking?

I don't see how this shape can keep possession, how do you think it'll retain the ball and have good passing options to allow it?

[A.Pierfrancesco]

Looking at the tactic I see some problems. Cm-D and DLP-S are very static role. You do not have any movement in the middle of the pitch. Both of them will hold their position (the Cm-D even more than the DLP). The AF will not provide any support in the transition.  When the FB has the ball, what are his passing option? The DLP move towards him? What about support from the midfielder when a Winger has the ball?

[thomas166]

11 hours ago, Cleon said:

I don't see how this shape can keep possession, how do you think it'll retain the ball and have good passing options to allow it?

 

8 hours ago, A.Pierfrancesco said:

Looking at the tactic I see some problems. Cm-D and DLP-S are very static role. You do not have any movement in the middle of the pitch. Both of them will hold their position (the Cm-D even more than the DLP). The AF will not provide any support in the transition.  When the FB has the ball, what are his passing option? The DLP move towards him? What about support from the midfielder when a Winger has the ball?

Okay I may have overthought the midfielders covering the back four, leaving the attacking options more isolated. In terms of posession we've been dominating the first couple of friendlies, but have been rather wasteful with our chances so the AF may need to be changed.

I might also look at setting the DLP to Roam from Position to offer more support going forward.

I thought the combination of the CM-D, the F9 and the AF would work in a similar way to the BBM and the F9 in providing the transition between the midfield and the attack.

[A.Pierfrancesco]

3 hours ago, thomas166 said:

 

Okay I may have overthought the midfielders covering the back four, leaving the attacking options more isolated. In terms of posession we've been dominating the first couple of friendlies, but have been rather wasteful with our chances so the AF may need to be changed.

I might also look at setting the DLP to Roam from Position to offer more support going forward.

I thought the combination of the CM-D, the F9 and the AF would work in a similar way to the BBM and the F9 in providing the transition between the midfield and the attack.

You can not assign the "Roam from position" PI t the DPL, he has the "Hold Position" Pi by default. Try to switch him to a RPM, he will offer more help to others player and moreover he is a decent runner from deep, which is fundamental against team who defend deep. The BBM role is more similar to the CM-S role with the Roam from position PI. My advice is to look at the chance you have, especially at how the shots are created. You will see if you lack of support and if your transition is fluid.

[thomas166]

10 hours ago, A.Pierfrancesco said:

You can not assign the "Roam from position" PI t the DPL, he has the "Hold Position" Pi by default. Try to switch him to a RPM, he will offer more help to others player and moreover he is a decent runner from deep, which is fundamental against team who defend deep. The BBM role is more similar to the CM-S role with the Roam from position PI. My advice is to look at the chance you have, especially at how the shots are created. You will see if you lack of support and if your transition is fluid.

I'll give that a go then My concern with using the RPM was that he wouldn't offer the same defensive cover, but hopefully it'll all work out

[paddypower]

I love this thread Cleon. I was struggling in league 2 and decided I'd try this out even if the players aren't that great - I ended up making two small tweaks, both wingers are now IF(s) and the RPM is now an AP. It has worked wonders down here, I got automatic promotion and now in League 1 I'm in the playoff spots without any big signings really.

 

However I have just signed a coup imo but I'm struggling to fit him into the team. How would you adapt the tactic to suit a player who is older like this and has poor workrate? My other strikers are streaky so I was hoping this guy could give me the experience and consistency to get promoted again

 

[Cleon]

21 hours ago, paddypower said:

I love this thread Cleon. I was struggling in league 2 and decided I'd try this out even if the players aren't that great - I ended up making two small tweaks, both wingers are now IF(s) and the RPM is now an AP. It has worked wonders down here, I got automatic promotion and now in League 1 I'm in the playoff spots without any big signings really.

 

However I have just signed a coup imo but I'm struggling to fit him into the team. How would you adapt the tactic to suit a player who is older like this and has poor workrate? My other strikers are streaky so I was hoping this guy could give me the experience and consistency to get promoted again

 

I never adapt my formation for a player as I only sign/develop players who actually fit and compliment the style I've created. With a player like the above just play him the same as you do the others in his position and see how he interprets the role then work and tweak from that. That's the easiest way of doing things.

[thomas166]

On 14/12/2016 at 20:47, A.Pierfrancesco said:

You can not assign the "Roam from position" PI t the DPL, he has the "Hold Position" Pi by default. Try to switch him to a RPM, he will offer more help to others player and moreover he is a decent runner from deep, which is fundamental against team who defend deep. The BBM role is more similar to the CM-S role with the Roam from position PI. My advice is to look at the chance you have, especially at how the shots are created. You will see if you lack of support and if your transition is fluid.

I've gone through half a season using the suggested changes and have managed to do even worse haha I'm bottom of the pile, yet to win at all in the league, but champions league and cup results have been reasonably succesful (4 wins and 1 close defeat).

 

Posession is fine, getting a reasonable number of shots on target, a lot of goals conceded are either own goals through deflections (centre backs closing down too much) or just standard goals with no obvious mistake being made

[BozzGer]

Sorry, but after a while I think the championship wasn't won with this tactic. I try a similar approach with Sunderland, 2nd season bought players that should work in a possession game... Results? 3:0 battering against United in Community Shield, 0:4 at City, 0:2 without any chance against Leicester, 1:5 at Anfield etc. They just pass the ball around, don't create chances and the defense allows 25-30 Shots per game. 

[herne79]

7 hours ago, BozzGer said:

Sorry, but after a while I think the championship wasn't won with this tactic. I try a similar approach with Sunderland, 2nd season bought players that should work in a possession game... Results? 3:0 battering against United in Community Shield, 0:4 at City, 0:2 without any chance against Leicester, 1:5 at Anfield etc. They just pass the ball around, don't create chances and the defense allows 25-30 Shots per game. 

If all you have done is copied the system that Cleon posted, that's the reason why you aren't winning and have totally missed the point of the thread.

[BozzGer]

I didn't copy Cleons System. But I play with a possession approach. And this post tells me that it works with mediocre teams, but I get smashed every matchday.

[BozzGer]

Also I think it's pretty typical for this board that when someone criticises the work of some of the "holy experts" other moderators come and tell you that u don't understand the game, the thread and everything in the world.

The fact is, with his approach he tells me, "hey, you can play a possession approach with a mid-table squad. AND WIN THE LEAGUE". And when you try out to do exactly this, to play a possession approach it's pretty frustrating to get hammered every game. 

[HUNT3R]

6 minutes ago, BozzGer said:

Also I think it's pretty typical for this board that when someone criticises the work of some of the "holy experts" other moderators come and tell you that u don't understand the game, the thread and everything in the world.

The fact is, with his approach he tells me, "hey, you can play a possession approach with a mid-table squad. AND WIN THE LEAGUE". And when you try out to do exactly this, to play a possession approach it's pretty frustrating to get hammered every game. 

The lack of detail in your post would naturally lead anyone to question what you've done, which is what Herne did. All that's needed is for you to actually show what you did do, so that the discussion can move forward. Otherwise, it's guessing. The point of the thread was to convey ideas and show how these approaches work. It's possible you have issues in what you've created, but no one can tell at this point. So please post the setup if this is to progress.

[BozzGer]

 

That's the stats for our game at WBA and the tactics. A 2-2 looks not that bad but the goals were a header after a corner and a Penalty. Since I play with the possession approach I feel there was not one single goal created through the approach. I'm not happy with the Poacher in the tactic, but I think a False Nine is too deep when you have an AM behind it (?). Lozano has an attack duty because he is now the outstanding player in our squad and I want him to create something on his own sometimes. The main problem is we concede very dumb goals I think. Against City Lichtsteiner crossed for times into the back of our line and Agüero and Griezmann had easy goals. Nearly the same the goals against WBA. 

Before I created the 4-2-3-1 I played my favorite 4-1-2-2-1. But with it there were the batterings against City, United, Arsenal, Leicester etc. Looked like that:

[robbiepope]

I would really appreciate any advice.

I have jumped from fm 12 to 17 and I am struggling a little bit with my possesion tactic. I seem to enjoy lots of the ball but not much creativity it seems.. 

Am I doing something obvious wrong? I have a controlled, highly structured approach. I have attached a couple of pictures with the match stats one used as a typical example of how a match is panning out for me. Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Dr. Hook]

@robbiepope

There are a couple of glaring issues here. Yes, you'll see lots of the ball with that setup, but you only have one goal scorer. Two playmakers in midfield mean they are almost always looking pass, and the DF will get into the box, but later. You should probably look to have a midfield runner here, as you are using wingers and you need more than one body pushing into the box with the attack. Secondly, you are using retain possession as a shout. This creates a lot of passing laterally and backwards, but since it is geared for you to not lose the ball, you will stifle any forward creativity or passes into key areas. Add to that a structured approach, which reduces creative freedom across the board and you get what you are seeing.

As an alternative, you can try one of your wide men as an inside forward to help with that. At the very least, drop the "retain" shout (that ideally is used only to see out a match or hang on to a lead against a team which is inferior to you), and see how it gets on. If that doesn't do it, then try adding some creative freedom to your midfield. Finally, tinker with your roles and duties to get a more attacking oriented setup while still maintaining your possession.

[robbiepope]

32 minutes ago, Dr. Hook said:

@robbiepope

There are a couple of glaring issues here. Yes, you'll see lots of the ball with that setup, but you only have one goal scorer. Two playmakers in midfield mean they are almost always looking pass, and the DF will get into the box, but later. You should probably look to have a midfield runner here, as you are using wingers and you need more than one body pushing into the box with the attack. Secondly, you are using retain possession as a shout. This creates a lot of passing laterally and backwards, but since it is geared for you to not lose the ball, you will stifle any forward creativity or passes into key areas. Add to that a structured approach, which reduces creative freedom across the board and you get what you are seeing.

As an alternative, you can try one of your wide men as an inside forward to help with that. At the very least, drop the "retain" shout (that ideally is used only to see out a match or hang on to a lead against a team which is inferior to you), and see how it gets on. If that doesn't do it, then try adding some creative freedom to your midfield. Finally, tinker with your roles and duties to get a more attacking oriented setup while still maintaining your possession.

Thanks @Dr. Hook for taking to time to reply and for your helpful advice, I will certainly take it on board. The retain possession point now seems obvious!

[Dr. Hook]

20 minutes ago, robbiepope said:

Thanks @Dr. Hook for taking to time to reply and for your helpful advice, I will certainly take it on board. The retain possession point now seems obvious!

No problem- that's what we are here for  Let us know how you get on and how it all goes.

[BozzGer]

I finally gave up Sunderland, the morale was down because Yaya Toure wanted to play more, half of the team thought I was right to tell him I can't do anything for him, the other half was his opinion. Finally Swansea gave me a chance to better my image.

They want me to play a passing style so this approach fits perfectly. But the thing is they have one Winger that is good, but like 4 strikers on first team level. I set up a 4-1-3-2 but I'm not sure if this really works. Our first game was a 2-1 win against WBA but the winner game in minute 92 so nothing I'm too happy with. 

That's my system. I'm not sure how the midfield 3 work together if they are too narrow to play a good possession style. Also I worry about the Full Backs. I feel that you get killed by crosses into the back of the Centre Backs when the Wings are too open. It would be nice if someone could work out some things I can change to make the tactic better.

[Fosse]

6 hours ago, BozzGer said:

I finally gave up Sunderland, the morale was down because Yaya Toure wanted to play more, half of the team thought I was right to tell him I can't do anything for him, the other half was his opinion. Finally Swansea gave me a chance to better my image.

They want me to play a passing style so this approach fits perfectly. But the thing is they have one Winger that is good, but like 4 strikers on first team level. I set up a 4-1-3-2 but I'm not sure if this really works. Our first game was a 2-1 win against WBA but the winner game in minute 92 so nothing I'm too happy with. 

That's my system. I'm not sure how the midfield 3 work together if they are too narrow to play a good possession style. Also I worry about the Full Backs. I feel that you get killed by crosses into the back of the Centre Backs when the Wings are too open. It would be nice if someone could work out some things I can change to make the tactic better.

How many games have you played?

What issues are you having specifically?

[BozzGer]

56 minutes ago, Fosse said:

How many games have you played?

What issues are you having specifically?

 

I played this system for 4 matches until I lost confidence in it, bought a LM and play a 4-4-2 now. The 4 games were WBA (2-1), Everton (0-1), Blackburn (FA Cup, 1-0), and Stoke (0-3). They are two main problems. There is no penetration to danger their goal and after we lose the ball there is so much space on the wings. When the opponents full back overlaps there are 2-1 situations nearly every time. Nearly every goal we conceded was after open crosses. I saw someone rushing with FC United Of Manchester through the leagues with such a tactic without a second Winger. But I don't have an idea how to cover the wings better in such a system.

[zigaliro]

Is it also possible to make a good possession tactics WITH fluid shape? Because I have fluid shape(because of how good my team is, so i dont really want to reduce creative freedom. Im managing Barcelona), and we often struggle to keep possession. Its very random. Sometimes we end the half with around 60% possession, and then in the second half possession goes down... sometimes we end the game with around 55,  sometimes around 58, and then there are rare games where we only have around 52% possession. My average possession was 57% in the league last season. its really random, but mostly its bellow 60%. Would it be better to use structured shape instead of fluid? 

My TIs: Control, Lower tempo, play out of defence, shorter passing, close down more, retain possession

Its a 4-1-2-2-1(4-3-3)

             Sw(sup)

FB(atk) cb(def) cb(def) FB(atk)

              Dlp(def)

      Cm(atk)    ap(sup)

 If(sup)                          if(sup)

                    dlf(sup) (actually i changed to f9 recently, only played 1 game with f9)

       

Edited January 2, 2017 by zigaliro

[jorgvandervloed]

@zigaliro

Lets start off with that everything is possible in FM. So playing a possession tactic with a fluid shape is definitely an option. 

To make the comparison easy i will only talk about very structured and very fluid as they are the limits on the left and right end spectrum. They affect the creative freedom and how far your players are vertically away/close to each other. With very structured allowing less creative freedom and your team being vertically less compact (read: more space between the lines) and very fluid obviously the other way around. 

The reasons why Cleon chose very structured for his possession tactic were in my opinion:

• He wants his players to play simple football; by giving them less creative freedom they wont deviate from his instructions as much and do exactly as they are told. This way they follow instructions and keep things simple which helps with keeping possession. (Very Guardiola like)
• The team is vertically more stretched out; players are further apart which makes the pitch bigger for the opponent to cover. Therefore, they have more time on the ball because the opponents needs more time to cover the extra ground. 

I would go as far as saying that the creative freedom in this tactic isn't with the players deviating from given instructions, but the ''creative movement'' the tactic creates by adding ''roam from position'' in the very structured framework. Adding the playmakers for an extra spark in the final third. 

@Cleon I have a question as well; When you read about Pep Guardiola and more recently Thomas Tuchel from Dortmund. The term ''juego de posición'' comes back a lot, which translates in something like ''positional play''. They lure the opponent to one side of the field which leaves the players on the other side wide open in space. With the two playmakers on one side in this tactic, who will attract the ball more often, I can see this happening as well. Was this something you had in mind when you created this tactic? Or am I over-analyzing things now? (haven't played this tactic to be honest)

Hope I explained things above correctly, if not, my apologies in advance.  I know how keen you are on things being explained correctly and not spreading wrong information. 

[thomas166]

On 14/12/2016 at 20:47, A.Pierfrancesco said:

You can not assign the "Roam from position" PI t the DPL, he has the "Hold Position" Pi by default. Try to switch him to a RPM, he will offer more help to others player and moreover he is a decent runner from deep, which is fundamental against team who defend deep. The BBM role is more similar to the CM-S role with the Roam from position PI. My advice is to look at the chance you have, especially at how the shots are created. You will see if you lack of support and if your transition is fluid.

 

On 31/12/2016 at 00:37, thomas166 said:

I've gone through half a season using the suggested changes and have managed to do even worse haha I'm bottom of the pile, yet to win at all in the league, but champions league and cup results have been reasonably succesful (4 wins and 1 close defeat).

 

Posession is fine, getting a reasonable number of shots on target, a lot of goals conceded are either own goals through deflections (centre backs closing down too much) or just standard goals with no obvious mistake being made

 

On 02/01/2017 at 01:58, Dr. Hook said:

@robbiepope

There are a couple of glaring issues here. Yes, you'll see lots of the ball with that setup, but you only have one goal scorer. Two playmakers in midfield mean they are almost always looking pass, and the DF will get into the box, but later. You should probably look to have a midfield runner here, as you are using wingers and you need more than one body pushing into the box with the attack. Secondly, you are using retain possession as a shout. This creates a lot of passing laterally and backwards, but since it is geared for you to not lose the ball, you will stifle any forward creativity or passes into key areas. Add to that a structured approach, which reduces creative freedom across the board and you get what you are seeing.

As an alternative, you can try one of your wide men as an inside forward to help with that. At the very least, drop the "retain" shout (that ideally is used only to see out a match or hang on to a lead against a team which is inferior to you), and see how it gets on. If that doesn't do it, then try adding some creative freedom to your midfield. Finally, tinker with your roles and duties to get a more attacking oriented setup while still maintaining your possession.

 

After weeks of tinkering and taking peoples advice on how to make this tactic work for my BMG side, I still don't feel like I'm getting anywhere, I've changed to the CM-SU with roam from postion and RPM in midfield as suggested above. I have a F9 and AF as my two strikers, aswell as an IF so there should be no shortage of goal scorers as DR Hook mentioned could be a problem in someone else's tactic. I also dropped the retain posession shout to allow more forward thinking passing. Is there anything else that could be holding the side back.

This is my current setup

 

 

These are the stats from my last two games. As I've said in previous posts, the posession side of things is fine, but we're wasting a lot of shots and not making many actual chances. The 2-1 victory we were shocking against a 3rd division side, and didn't deserve to win one bit. The 0-0 draw we played a bit better but we seem to be lacking something in the final third.

 

[m1sza]

Hello everyone,

could you advise me what player traits should I train my players/youngsters - so they are prepared already for possesion/control tactic?

Like for example DL (FB support) and DR (FB attack) could possibly have "likes to switch ball to other flank"??


If you're bored ---> 

 

Help appreciated a LOT!

[thomas166]

1 hour ago, m1sza said:

Hello everyone,

could you advise me what player traits should I train my players/youngsters - so they are prepared already for possesion/control tactic?

Like for example DL (FB support) and DR (FB attack) could possibly have "likes to switch ball to other flank"??


If you're bored ---> 

 

Help appreciated a LOT!

I've been giving the RPM the 'come deep to collect ball' PPM. As I play with two strikers I give the F9 the 'come deep to collect ball' and 'look for pass rather than shot'. I give a lot of players the 'plays short simple passes' PPM too though I'm not sure whether thats the best idea

[m1sza]

31 minutes ago, thomas166 said:

I've been giving the RPM the 'come deep to collect ball' PPM. As I play with two strikers I give the F9 the 'come deep to collect ball' and 'look for pass rather than shot'. I give a lot of players the 'plays short simple passes' PPM too though I'm not sure whether thats the best idea

okay ty

[herne79]

6 hours ago, m1sza said:

Hello everyone,

could you advise me what player traits should I train my players/youngsters - so they are prepared already for possesion/control tactic?

Like for example DL (FB support) and DR (FB attack) could possibly have "likes to switch ball to other flank"??


If you're bored ---> 

 

Help appreciated a LOT!

There is nothing that says you should give certain PPMs to certain players, it's entirely up to you and how you want your team to play.

What I would suggest is before giving anyone a PPM, consider why you want to give it to them - what is lacking from how you want to play that the PPM would give you and what attributes do your players need in order to use the PPMs effectively.

For example, you mention fullbacks possibly having likes to switch ball to other flank.  Do your fullbacks have the passing ability to use the PPM well?  Do your players who are expected to receive these cross field passes have good ball control skills to get the pass under control? 

Remember, PPMs are "skills" that you are asking those players to use a little more frequently than normal, so if you want a player to hit long cross field passes, or dictate the match tempo, or get forward often, or whatever, you need to make sure they have the right attributes in order to actually do these things.

[m1sza]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

There is nothing that says you should give certain PPMs to certain players, it's entirely up to you and how you want your team to play.

What I would suggest is before giving anyone a PPM, consider why you want to give it to them - what is lacking from how you want to play that the PPM would give you and what attributes do your players need in order to use the PPMs effectively.

For example, you mention fullbacks possibly having likes to switch ball to other flank.  Do your fullbacks have the passing ability to use the PPM well?  Do your players who are expected to receive these cross field passes have good ball control skills to get the pass under control? 

Remember, PPMs are "skills" that you are asking those players to use a little more frequently than normal, so if you want a player to hit long cross field passes, or dictate the match tempo, or get forward often, or whatever, you need to make sure they have the right attributes in order to actually do these things.

u opened my eyes... thanks a lot

[m1sza]

On 6. 12. 2015 at 12:45, Cleon said:

The advanced playmaker had the most goals, he scored 18 in 36 games. He also had 9 assists which was joint top with my rightback. Then the MC's, IF etc all had 7 assists.

After reading this I turned white and stopped to breath...

I played for weaker team in first czech league "Zbrojovka Brno" (possesion focus) AND I HAD INCREDIBLE SUCCESS... 3rd in league!!! (1st Sparta Praha and 2nd Viktoria Plzen, it was kinda obvious these two would dominate...) 

overall I enjoyed watching it so the great result was extra for me (my focus was to stay in league, get some confidence from owner of club and slowly but surely upgrade players for each role - EURO CUP NEXT SEASON??? I DIDNT SEE THAT COMING LOL)

BUT TO THE POINT => MY AP were insanely invisible to me (truth is they arent APs  but i hadnt any better choice) - could you highlight some stats for AP? I will try to get some freetransfer...
stats of the two I used => http://imgur.com/Iyct8EI and http://imgur.com/xugM8iH

!!!now I know I'm not playing for even average/decent team in my league!!! and i am not able whatsoever to even reach or offer a contract to suitable players!!! (I was supposed to be around relegation spot 13. on the end of season)
I know I havent/hadnt suitable players for this tactic so I tried to improve it as much as possible (+3 free transfers at the start of season, DL (hadnt one player who had the light green on DL), DR and F9 - who was great SUPERB but then he injured for 8-9 months so his momentum ended... QQ

sad thing about this is that I am still rookie FM player with 148 hours FM17 overall (148 hrs in 2 weeks LOL I AM A BIT ADDICTED) so my lack of experience resulted making a 3milion debt on the end of season so I will have to start a new game ^^ (atleast with more exp)

 

Last words: I tried as u say to not only copy your tactic and I tried to to understand it but since I know only thing that i know almost nothing about football (i know only  the top of iceberg ^^), I ended up to use it and hope for best ^^... well I'm on my way to the read rest of the comment pages  cy@

[m1sza]

also forgot to mention I was getting hammered by bottom table teams in league when I was like on 1st 2nd posiiton?? is there something i want to do versus these teams?

[robbiepope]

On 02/01/2017 at 02:54, Dr. Hook said:

No problem- that's what we are here for  Let us know how you get on and how it all goes.

Hi @Dr. Hook I tried a few of your suggestions and there was an initial small improvement but I have since moved to Colchester where I am getting quite badly beaten! I seem to be scoring a little more but I struggle to dominate games. Currently on a 6 game losing streak! Any more advice will be appreciated, sorry in advance for poor quality images. Trying to make a possession based 442 work. Thanks.

[A.Pierfrancesco]

I think you do not have the right support from the central Duo. The DLP-D will stay rather near the central of the pitch in attacking situation and it will not provide the right support. The AP-S will stay in the middle but I do not think he will provide any Forwards runs in order to unlock the defense. The DF will stay deep so he will provide a link between the midfield and the attack but I do not think he will provide support. On the other hand the AF will be isolated. Try to understand the Passing network in order to see the link between players and watch the shots in order to understand if you lack support. 

[robbiepope]

6 hours ago, A.Pierfrancesco said:

I think you do not have the right support from the central Duo. The DLP-D will stay rather near the central of the pitch in attacking situation and it will not provide the right support. The AP-S will stay in the middle but I do not think he will provide any Forwards runs in order to unlock the defense. The DF will stay deep so he will provide a link between the midfield and the attack but I do not think he will provide support. On the other hand the AF will be isolated. Try to understand the Passing network in order to see the link between players and watch the shots in order to understand if you lack support. 

Thanks for this, will do. Time to study a few games and not rely on just stats. 

[TheDefensiveOne]

I'm trying to create a counter attacking tactic, but I'm going to use possession based TIs, player roles etc. According the art of counter attacking threat, all TIs etc are ignored when a counter attack is on. So I'm wondering if this is a good idea. Thought I'd mention it here, and see if anyone has had some success with something similar.

[Dr. Hook]

6 hours ago, robbiepope said:

Thanks for this, will do. Time to study a few games and not rely on just stats. 

Sorry to be so late getting back at you here- I think you got really good advice there. With a two man midfield as playmakers, you are really only getting an attack through your wide men and AF- if your AF gets marked out, your Midfield duo will look out wide for forward balls. I'd say you need a midfield runner. The DF can be a great role if you have a midfielder he can link with high up enough on the pitch to create some movement. Try a CM on attack duty or support with "gets further forward" activated nest to your DLP, and see how it changes your midfield activity. Basically you want to create more attacking options for yourself other than wide balls to the wings.

[Dr. Hook]

4 hours ago, TheDefensiveOne said:

I'm trying to create a counter attacking tactic, but I'm going to use possession based TIs, player roles etc. According the art of counter attacking threat, all TIs etc are ignored when a counter attack is on. So I'm wondering if this is a good idea. Thought I'd mention it here, and see if anyone has had some success with something similar.

Yes it can work- counters are not triggered super often, and when they are, you do want the team bombing forward to try and score. That is the point of the counter attack, right? Otherwise, if you don't want that to happen, you are looking at creating a deep, possession team that patiently works the ball upfield. To minimize counter attacking triggers in that case, you need to have a couple players that are not getting behind the ball.

[A.Pierfrancesco]

8 hours ago, Dr. Hook said:

Sorry to be so late getting back at you here- I think you got really good advice there. With a two man midfield as playmakers, you are really only getting an attack through your wide men and AF- if your AF gets marked out, your Midfield duo will look out wide for forward balls. I'd say you need a midfield runner. The DF can be a great role if you have a midfielder he can link with high up enough on the pitch to create some movement. Try a CM on attack duty or support with "gets further forward" activated nest to your DLP, and see how it changes your midfield activity. Basically you want to create more attacking options for yourself other than wide balls to the wings.

An AP-A in the CM slot with "gets further forward" will provide any forwards run? 

I think I've not fully understood this PI. The AP-A will be higher in the pitch or it will be essentially in the same position as without the PI but makes more forward run?

 

And moreover, what about a combination of a Ap-A (with gets further forward PI) and a RPM? 

[Dr. Hook]

6 hours ago, A.Pierfrancesco said:

An AP-A in the CM slot with "gets further forward" will provide any forwards run? 

I think I've not fully understood this PI. The AP-A will be higher in the pitch or it will be essentially in the same position as without the PI but makes more forward run?

 

And moreover, what about a combination of a Ap-A (with gets further forward PI) and a RPM? 

Not as you want, as a playmaker role, he will still be tuned to pass first- but, you can get a few goals out of an AP, I always do, if they are pushed forward to the edge of the area. Just don't expect to see them make many runs deep into the area even with the PI active. Essentially, the PI tells the player to take up a position higher up the pitch in the transition than normal. That would be your forward runs, so to speak. If you've noticed, once you've started camping a bit in final third, your midfield players on S and A duties will be on the edge of area anyway.  So using the PI is a good way to get them forward earlier and faster as you are working the ball ahead. This can get them into good scoring positions and with a support duty, they can be arriving forward a bit later which can helpful.

With the AP-A, RPM, you are still dealing with the playmaker dynamic, so they are still going to look pass first. If that's fine, an AP(A) with Gets further forward can work well getting forward earlier and a bit further that he would otherwise which could open space for you.

[A.Pierfrancesco]

Thanks,  

I was trying to implement a possession based tactic with the following roles.

SK-D

WBR WB-A  (in the WB slots with "stay wider" PI in order to stretch the pitch and provide width)

Central Defender (Defend)

Central Defender (Defend)

WBL WB-A  (in the WB slots with "stay wider" PI in order to stretch the pitch and provide width)

DM Half-Back

MCR Roaming Playmaker

MCL Advanced Playmaker Attack (with PI "get further forwards")

AMR/AML Inside-Forward Support ( with PI "sit narrower" and one of the two with "gets further forwards", the first in order to take control of the half spaces and the second in order to drag defenders out of position with a diagonal run in the opposite area)

ST False-9

 

TI's used

 

Control mentality

Very Fluid Shape (I want my team to be compact between the lines and reduce space to use a shorter passing style)

Lower Tempo 

Shorter Passing

Close Down Much More

Prevent short GK distribution

Play out of defense

Dribble Less

Roaming from Position

Slightly Higher Defensive Line

Work Ball into Box

 

With Lower tempo I want my player not to rush with their play and give the opportunity to the WB to gets time to move higher up.

With shorter passing I want my player to replicate a Tiki-Taka style and avoid stupid long balls. Anyway if we need a long ball, for example in a counter attacking situation, the two CM with "more risky passes" will attempt that long range pass.

Close Down Much more and Prevent short GK distribution are used to give the opposition less time on the ball and less time to think and to pess the GK and force him to a long ball.

Play out of defense instruction it ensures that the players will pass their way out of defensive third with short passes, this is dangerous against a team who presses high. For this I need players with good mental stats in for the Central Defenders, moreover they will be helped by the  half back who will drop between the two CBs and stretch the two, also the RPM will come deep in order to offer another passing option. With the two CBs splitting and stretching the pitch, the two WBs will be higher in the pitch.

I'm still not sure on WBIB, i thick it to reduce the amount of crosses and the number of long shots.

I'm playing with Ajax, we are not playing bad, in fact we are scoring a good amount of goals (I think two per match) and not allowing much in defense. My doubt is that most of the assists come from crosses of my WB, while I prefer more goals coming from a through ball, maybe by leaving more space in the "golden zone" with my attacking trio trying some diagonal runs.

About Possession, even without Retain Possession we have 63+% of possession with 700+ passes attempted per game and an accuracy of 85+%. My two central Playmakers have the highest number of attempted passes.

Watching the game I think the link up is quite good, my False-9 is not isolated, and even if he receive the balls higher in the pitch with no support he turns his back to the goals and waits for support from the IFs of the Playmakers, the two WBs offer good width, but attempt too many crosses per match, sometimes they even try more than 15 crosses per match with a low accuracy.  

 

 

[pedrosantos]

Personaly, I think a higher risk mentality with a lower tempo is the opposite of possession (rather prefer call it "positional play"), its much more about lowering the risk and moving the ball around more faster, precisely to create unbalances into the opposition.

[zigaliro]

23 hours ago, pedrosantos said:

Personaly, I think a higher risk mentality with a lower tempo is the opposite of possession (rather prefer call it "positional play"), its much more about lowering the risk and moving the ball around more faster, precisely to create unbalances into the opposition.

What mentality would then be good for possession?

[herne79]

On ‎22‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 09:42, pedrosantos said:

Personaly, I think a higher risk mentality with a lower tempo is the opposite of possession (rather prefer call it "positional play"), its much more about lowering the risk and moving the ball around more faster, precisely to create unbalances into the opposition.

 

1 hour ago, zigaliro said:

What mentality would then be good for possession?

Read the very first paragraph of the opening post on page 1.

[A.Pierfrancesco]

On 1/19/2017 at 17:41, A.Pierfrancesco said:

Thanks,  

I was trying to implement a possession based tactic with the following roles.

SK-D

WBR WB-A  (in the WB slots with "stay wider" PI in order to stretch the pitch and provide width)

Central Defender (Defend)

Central Defender (Defend)

WBL WB-A  (in the WB slots with "stay wider" PI in order to stretch the pitch and provide width)

DM Half-Back

MCR Roaming Playmaker

MCL Advanced Playmaker Attack (with PI "get further forwards")

AMR/AML Inside-Forward Support ( with PI "sit narrower" and one of the two with "gets further forwards", the first in order to take control of the half spaces and the second in order to drag defenders out of position with a diagonal run in the opposite area)

ST False-9

 

TI's used

 

Control mentality

Very Fluid Shape (I want my team to be compact between the lines and reduce space to use a shorter passing style)

Lower Tempo 

Shorter Passing

Close Down Much More

Prevent short GK distribution

Play out of defense

Dribble Less

Roaming from Position

Slightly Higher Defensive Line

Work Ball into Box

 

With Lower tempo I want my player not to rush with their play and give the opportunity to the WB to gets time to move higher up.

With shorter passing I want my player to replicate a Tiki-Taka style and avoid stupid long balls. Anyway if we need a long ball, for example in a counter attacking situation, the two CM with "more risky passes" will attempt that long range pass.

Close Down Much more and Prevent short GK distribution are used to give the opposition less time on the ball and less time to think and to pess the GK and force him to a long ball.

Play out of defense instruction it ensures that the players will pass their way out of defensive third with short passes, this is dangerous against a team who presses high. For this I need players with good mental stats in for the Central Defenders, moreover they will be helped by the  half back who will drop between the two CBs and stretch the two, also the RPM will come deep in order to offer another passing option. With the two CBs splitting and stretching the pitch, the two WBs will be higher in the pitch.

I'm still not sure on WBIB, i thick it to reduce the amount of crosses and the number of long shots.

I'm playing with Ajax, we are not playing bad, in fact we are scoring a good amount of goals (I think two per match) and not allowing much in defense. My doubt is that most of the assists come from crosses of my WB, while I prefer more goals coming from a through ball, maybe by leaving more space in the "golden zone" with my attacking trio trying some diagonal runs.

About Possession, even without Retain Possession we have 63+% of possession with 700+ passes attempted per game and an accuracy of 85+%. My two central Playmakers have the highest number of attempted passes.

Watching the game I think the link up is quite good, my False-9 is not isolated, and even if he receive the balls higher in the pitch with no support he turns his back to the goals and waits for support from the IFs of the Playmakers, the two WBs offer good width, but attempt too many crosses per match, sometimes they even try more than 15 crosses per match with a low accuracy.  

 

 

@herne79 do you have any suggestion?

Edited January 23, 2017 by A.Pierfrancesco

[jorgvandervloed]

@A.Pierfrancesco

At first glance, taking this topic in consideration, you're making the pitch too small and your players won't have enough space to move in. Besides that, I would say that using so many team-instructions it would be possession for the sake of it instead of really being dangerous with the ball. 

• Very fluid shape; team is vertically very compact
• You push up the defensive line to be even more compact
  • Probably the reason why your WB's are so dominant; they are the only ones that have space to move in and are available for a pass
• Lower tempo, shorter passing, work ball in the box, no dribbling, and play out of defence to keep possession might be a bit overkill  

[herne79]

20 minutes ago, A.Pierfrancesco said:

do you have any suggestion?

A suggestion for what?  You say you want a possession based tactic, and you have 63% possession with 700+ passes and 85% pass accuracy.  Sounds pretty good to me.

If you are looking to cut down on the amount of goals from crosses, I'd suggest you 1) check your statistics to confirm you actually do have an issue and 2) if you do, start a new thread as it's not really on topic.

Thanks.

[summatsupeer]

25 minutes ago, A.Pierfrancesco said:

@herne79 do you have any suggestion?

As Ajax I would expect good statistics due to the quality compared to the rest of the league so what do you want to improve?

If you want the Wingbacks to cross less and take less risks then I would make them WB-S.

[Solo171013]

Amazing thread. Have been away from Fm for a few years. Been getting used to a lot of new tactic changes and roles. The ideas here now seem so obvious and simple as to why didn't i think of that.

Playing as Liverpool. The tactic framework fits perfectly. Have 2 versions. The original and a mirror version.

Have Coutinho so need the AP on left. Ties in great with Moreno and Henderson. Depending on rotation can use either side.

It's been a revelation watching. Great play. Possession and a 4 nil drubbing of Everton. 

Different players make it tick differently. Lucas as the dm keeps it steady. Henderson pushes us on.

Thank you @Cleon and all. This thread got me thinking and has been a great help.