Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
jujigatame

Reducing unintentional hoofball

Recommended Posts

I generally play on counter mentality with "play out of defense" set. I notice my defenders, particularly my fullbacks on attack duties, making crazy passes up the field at an alarming rate. I've heard that it's possible that setting shorter passing for some players can actually cause more hoofing because they can't find short enough options. I also heard that control mentality already sets shorter passing for defenders. So is it possible the control mentality + attack duty for fullbacks + play out of defense = more hoofball?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the "hoofball" you speak of is more of a few issues with the match engine in its current state than anything else.

If you're selecting "play out of defense" then all your defenders will be instructed to pass as short as possible (someone confirm this?)(I'm 90% certain)

So I don't see what more you could do unfortunately.

It's true that higher mentalities like attack/control = shorter passing for defenders. The hoofball issue is something that I've seen a lot, and if you look at the general feedback thread you'll find others with similar concern.

I'm pretty sure it's being worked on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think that the "hoofball" you speak of is more of a few issues with the match engine in its current state than anything else.

If you're selecting "play out of defense" then all your defenders will be instructed to pass as short as possible (someone confirm this?)(I'm 90% certain)

So I don't see what more you could do unfortunately.

It's true that higher mentalities like attack/control = shorter passing for defenders. The hoofball issue is something that I've seen a lot, and if you look at the general feedback thread you'll find others with similar concern.

I'm pretty sure it's being worked on.

I raised it, with flashy images as well, but some of the points were that it was normal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think that the "hoofball" you speak of is more of a few issues with the match engine in its current state than anything else.

If you're selecting "play out of defense" then all your defenders will be instructed to pass as short as possible (someone confirm this?)(I'm 90% certain)

So I don't see what more you could do unfortunately.

It's true that higher mentalities like attack/control = shorter passing for defenders. The hoofball issue is something that I've seen a lot, and if you look at the general feedback thread you'll find others with similar concern.

I'm pretty sure it's being worked on.

So you think my best option is to keep my instructions the way they are and hope a patch will fix it? That's a bit of a bummer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know it's a lame answer but it's a realistic one, I think.

I don't think defending will be where people want it to be until FM17 or FM18. Who knows.

If you look at the top requests for the next FM, as well as the bugs forum / public feedback it's clear that SI know what's going on. That being said, I think the ME is pretty darn good. It's frustrating at times, but overall I'm happy to have paid 30 dollars for FMTouch. It's been a lot of fun so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see it myself, maybe the odd time the opposition press my back line.

I think a lot of FM'ers have their player roles set up wrong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we stop generalising and start providing some context?

Perhaps there is indeed an issue with "hoofball", but before jumping on that particular bandwagon lets have a look at the tactical setup and how it plays out on pitch?

Maybe there is a ball playing defender who is going to make long range risky passes.

Maybe there is a target man and / or playmaker high up the pitch acting as ball magnets.

Maybe there is a disconnect between defence and midfield thus reducing the opportunity for short passing.

Maybe the defence and midfield are connected but the opposition is closing down space and thus reducing the chances for a short pass.

Maybe the Team Shape is adding unwanted creativity.

Maybe you are just watching key highlights - which are only really going to show your defence when under pressure from a decent opposition attack and so simply clearing their lines. Watching more of a match may(?) actually reveal quite a lot of short passing and playing out of defence.

There could be any number of tactical reasons, but without context we don't know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had this too. For a while I added retain possession but then that stopped any through balls which were one of my team's main attacking outlets.

I eventually "solved" this by switching from a 4-4-2 (ish) to a 4-1-4-1 (ish). Now that players had one extra passing option, they don't need to hoof it up as much.

Needless to say, if you've got a limited defender, a limited full back, or a target man, and see too much hoofing, get rid of them immediately. All of these roles greatly increase long balls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To where exactly would you like your full backs to short pass the ball? Given they lack a bit of closeby teammates, especially Clyne?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Exploit The Flanks increases crosses, and you are asking all players to Be More Expressive in a Fluid Team Shape.

Same result.

c412fcd4e7bd0d61a2678c536700bd4d.png

96bdb8c64f17173562c9c94e5fd3f4dd.png

c23123ff6b16b2937f43f036198ec66d.png

f70900e7507c497632af6406f6c20e1f.png

Those are examples from the first 45minutes. Clyne having the sick amount of 59% passingrate

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mentality is Control which has an inherently high-ish level of risk and tempo. Does Clyne have any PPMs?

I don't understand why Control would favour that sort of long ball though. I mean, fair enough take a risky pass but in both the Clyne examples it seems a bit much.

Reading that mentality description really bugs me, hehe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

eb87c39b9cc41058e93b5064968f19ae.png

And one opponent that's not farther than Lucas.

You have also to take into account how things work: if you set everything there is pointing to short passing, it will turn that their "looking for options" radius becomes much smaller than their "get nervy or panicked by closing opposition even if not looking that close" and so the result will be they are far more likely to hoof the ball than to stay calm and look a little farther. In those situations, you can get less hoofball and more short passing by instructing them to a less shorter passing. The result will be their look out radius will become big enough that now they'll see the close option.

In my experience, in a case like that, Lucas is not close enough for everything set to short passing and maintain possession to get the fullback to "see him". He'd need to be like 1/3 that distance. And in my experience, when I've seen things like that, increasing their passing range is the solution to get them to make those passes to the closer teammate that's not so close for the ME as we'd think. One of those cases in which the solution to a problem can be counter intuitive.

If you ask me, it's logical to expect and ask that Clyne there wouldn't be as stressed by that opponent to not see Lucas, who's around the same distance, I think just a little closer; but one of the instances where I did what I comment and it worked, was very similar to that. Opponent not that close, midfield partner barely farther, hoofing ball. Until I removed the shorter passing. It made me feel as if everything toward shorter passing makes the looking out for options radius too small. I don't know if that's right, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mentality is Control which has an inherently high-ish level of risk and tempo. Does Clyne have any PPMs?

I'm still wondering about the shortness of the passing settings. It's VERY short. Retain Possession + Shorter Passing + Play Out of Defence. Clyne also has also been asked to reduce passes into space.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eb87c39b9cc41058e93b5064968f19ae.png

And one opponent that's not farther than Lucas.

You have also to take into account how things work: if you set everything there is pointing to short passing, it will turn that their "looking for options" radius becomes much smaller than their "get nervy or panicked by closing opposition even if not looking that close" and so the result will be they are far more likely to hoof the ball than to stay calm and look a little farther. In those situations, you can get less hoofball and more short passing by instructing them to a less shorter passing. The result will be their look out radius will become big enough that now they'll see the close option.

In my experience, in a case like that, Lucas is not close enough for everything set to short passing and maintain possession to get the fullback to "see him". He'd need to be like 1/3 that distance. And in my experience, when I've seen things like that, increasing their passing range is the solution to get them to make those passes to the closer teammate that's not so close for the ME as we'd think. One of those cases in which the solution to a problem can be counter intuitive.

If you ask me, it's logical to expect and ask that Clyne there wouldn't be as stressed by that opponent to not see Lucas, who's around the same distance, I think just a little closer; but one of the instances where I did what I comment and it worked, was very similar to that. Opponent not that close, midfield partner barely farther, hoofing ball. Until I removed the shorter passing. It made me feel as if everything toward shorter passing makes the looking out for options radius too small. I don't know if that's right, though.

This sounds like a good answer to me. I think its a case of TI overkill. Maybe having shorter passing and retain possession and play out of defence makes sense in conjunction with Control, but when you are playing at a high tempo, which control is, then the player is looking for options quickly, and if it doesn't see any, then it lumps it. Probably a lower mentality and lower tempo would fix this problem.. plus playing narrower.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm still wondering about the shortness of the passing settings. It's VERY short. Retain Possession + Shorter Passing + Play Out of Defence. Clyne also has also been asked to reduce passes into space.

It's possibly a number of things, as you and others have commented: apparently restrictive passing range settings in a Mentality which invites a degree of risk and quick decision making. If I were Acquafresca, I'd consider removing a passing modifier TI, play a match and see if there's improvement. Then another if there isn't, etc. etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do play with a target man (Kane) but the amount of hopeless balls that get lumped in his direction is exasperating. Pass completion rates seem low and i think this is down to decision making rather than passing accuracy itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I do play with a target man (Kane) but the amount of hopeless balls that get lumped in his direction is exasperating. Pass completion rates seem low and i think this is down to decision making rather than passing accuracy itself.

When players run out of passing options, they will lump it to him, so best to make sure they have options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've experienced similar issues with fullbacks. I have a suspicion that having a huge, powerful ST like Benteke might be having some odd effect on pass selection even when you don't use the target man role. I'd recommend logging any examples you come across on the bugs forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm still wondering about the shortness of the passing settings. It's VERY short. Retain Possession + Shorter Passing + Play Out of Defence. Clyne also has also been asked to reduce passes into space.

For me, this happens even on blank slate tactics. I.e. Counter + no instructions.

My suspicion is it is to do with the role aggressiveness? The common people hoofing it for me tends to be wide players (on attack). Clyne is on automatic so would be on attack in that example right? Because I do see my CB's doing very well in terms of keeping the ball with lateral passes even under pressure, more so than the wide players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have played mixed passing for as long as i can remember, as i like the players to decide what type of passes to make. And it has worked great for me in past versions.

But in this version in almost forced to play short passing to reduce the number of long balls. I thing mainly its because it auto turns off the "pump ball into box" instruction.

In relation to this......i REALLY wish we could disable (turn red) instructions like we can enable them, like the "pump ball into box" instruction.

Also like GK Distribution, i would like my keepers to have the option of passing/throwing to the Cb, FB or flanks, but not to kick it long over opposition defence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Surely playing a control mentality and retain possession selected while using a fluid team shape contradicts itself? The fluid setting will limit the options of keeping possession as players such as full backs will be pushing up and reducing the space and options, theoretically making the playing area considerably smaller. If you're after an attacking possession based style (Barcelona...) then switch the mentality to attacking and raise the tempo, if it is a controlling possession based style you are after (Man Utd...) try changing your team shape to structured and maybe drop the tempo slightly and reduce the closing down (Maybe set attacking players to close down more individually).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have played mixed passing for as long as i can remember, as i like the players to decide what type of passes to make. And it has worked great for me in past versions.

But in this version in almost forced to play short passing to reduce the number of long balls. I thing mainly its because it auto turns off the "pump ball into box" instruction.

In relation to this......i REALLY wish we could disable (turn red) instructions like we can enable them, like the "pump ball into box" instruction.

Also like GK Distribution, i would like my keepers to have the option of passing/throwing to the Cb, FB or flanks, but not to kick it long over opposition defence.

It doesn't turn off "Pump Ball Into Box," it just prevents you from enabling it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also like GK Distribution, i would like my keepers to have the option of passing/throwing to the Cb, FB or flanks, but not to kick it long over opposition defence.

Can you not set the GK to an individual instruct to roll out to the full backs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can you not set the GK to an individual instruct to roll out to the full backs?

Yes, but i want to give him the option to roll it out, throw the ball or short kick to the centre backs, full back or flanks, but never to kick it long over the opp defense.

It just a case of me wanting more control than the game allows. Which to me is dissapointing.

Im also still in a slider mindset, thinking red=rarely, grey=mixed and green = often, which isnt the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, but i want to give him the option to roll it out, throw the ball or short kick to the centre backs, full back or flanks, but never to kick it long over the opp defense.

It just a case of me wanting more control than the game allows. Which to me is dissapointing.

Im also still in a slider mindset, thinking red=rarely, grey=mixed and green = often, which isnt the case.

Ah! So what you want to do is distribute it to ANYONE but a long kick down the middle?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ah! So what you want to do is distribute it to ANYONE but a long kick down the middle?

Yeah, thats a better way of putting it :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah, thats a better way of putting it :)

What have you tried? Do you have any Playmaker or Target Man Roles up front? What is your Mentality? What is your Team Shape? What Role / Duty does the keeper have?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What have you tried? Do you have any Playmaker or Target Man Roles up front? What is your Mentality? What is your Team Shape? What Role / Duty does the keeper have?

AFter lots of games i have setlled on no playmakers or targetmen (never liked using them other than for the roles instructions), Fluid, Standard, short passing , GK is sweeper keeper support.

I've settled on distribute to full backs, and dont get many long balls anymore. I just want more control that what the game allows :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eb87c39b9cc41058e93b5064968f19ae.png

And one opponent that's not farther than Lucas.

You have also to take into account how things work: if you set everything there is pointing to short passing, it will turn that their "looking for options" radius becomes much smaller than their "get nervy or panicked by closing opposition even if not looking that close" and so the result will be they are far more likely to hoof the ball than to stay calm and look a little farther. In those situations, you can get less hoofball and more short passing by instructing them to a less shorter passing. The result will be their look out radius will become big enough that now they'll see the close option.

In my experience, in a case like that, Lucas is not close enough for everything set to short passing and maintain possession to get the fullback to "see him". He'd need to be like 1/3 that distance. And in my experience, when I've seen things like that, increasing their passing range is the solution to get them to make those passes to the closer teammate that's not so close for the ME as we'd think. One of those cases in which the solution to a problem can be counter intuitive.

If you ask me, it's logical to expect and ask that Clyne there wouldn't be as stressed by that opponent to not see Lucas, who's around the same distance, I think just a little closer; but one of the instances where I did what I comment and it worked, was very similar to that. Opponent not that close, midfield partner barely farther, hoofing ball. Until I removed the shorter passing. It made me feel as if everything toward shorter passing makes the looking out for options radius too small. I don't know if that's right, though.

I really like your post and want to thank you. But on the way you explain it, you can change everything and everything could lead into everything.

It's possibly a number of things, as you and others have commented: apparently restrictive passing range settings in a Mentality which invites a degree of risk and quick decision making. If I were Acquafresca, I'd consider removing a passing modifier TI, play a match and see if there's improvement. Then another if there isn't, etc. etc.

Ok but doesnt that take the logic away from this tactic. If i do it like you, than im just searching for something that works. That cant be the logic behind managing a team in RL. Ofc, this is something else, but it really sounds weird.

Surely playing a control mentality and retain possession selected while using a fluid team shape contradicts itself? The fluid setting will limit the options of keeping possession as players such as full backs will be pushing up and reducing the space and options, theoretically making the playing area considerably smaller. If you're after an attacking possession based style (Barcelona...) then switch the mentality to attacking and raise the tempo, if it is a controlling possession based style you are after (Man Utd...) try changing your team shape to structured and maybe drop the tempo slightly and reduce the closing down (Maybe set attacking players to close down more individually).

But the last thing you say: doesnt that lead into 2 or more blocks and that leads into losing the balance? I want to keep the guys close to each other, so i can dominate the possession and let players like Coutinho and Firmino creat chances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ok but doesnt that take the logic away from this tactic.
Not necessarily. Just try RTH's suggestion? If that 'fixes' the hoofball issue, it's quite clearly an issue with your passing range. So then either increase the passing range or get the players closer together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Managing a team in real life is all about searching for something that works, implementing it, helping the players understand and utilize this instruction. So I'm not sure what you think managers do if it's not searching for something that works?

RTHerringbone's advice is solid. If you're not willing to see what does and does not work by a process of elimination then what do you want to do?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're selectively cutting images where a pass has gone astray? There's no context; the first seems to be a cross field pass - was there a runner in space? Second looks like a simple square pass - what's wrong with that? Third looks like a pass down the line to the man in space......

What does a selection of screenshots achieve? Not much. You either need to upload a .pkm for people to review, or this thread is going nowhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I somewhere hoped you'll understand that all those passes where to Benteke. Not to Beneke but somewhere nearby.

I selectively cut the images.. For what? Why should i do that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a suggestion but if you are watching only in highlights then you might not be seeing the vast majority of times when your defenders do actually play out from the back?

Perhaps you could post some Prozone stats of your defenders passing to see what percentage of them are genuinely hoofball.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I somewhere hoped you'll understand that all those passes where to Benteke. Not to Beneke but somewhere nearby.

I selectively cut the images.. For what? Why should i do that?

What RTH means is the pictures are meaningless to us on their own. There is no context - all we can see is your player with the ball and plenty of passing options. We have no idea what happens, let alone if there are any "hoofballs".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it possible this has something to do with high tempo? Like the players don't have the time to see all the options?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eb87c39b9cc41058e93b5064968f19ae.png

And one opponent that's not farther than Lucas.

You have also to take into account how things work: if you set everything there is pointing to short passing, it will turn that their "looking for options" radius becomes much smaller than their "get nervy or panicked by closing opposition even if not looking that close" and so the result will be they are far more likely to hoof the ball than to stay calm and look a little farther. In those situations, you can get less hoofball and more short passing by instructing them to a less shorter passing. The result will be their look out radius will become big enough that now they'll see the close option.

Your comments here look more like an engineering description of a system than a description of typical human footballer behavior. I think that's why it makes complete sense to me. I've read quote a few of the sticky posts in the tactics forum and, quite frankly, they are useless to me. They seem to be written as though the match engine and real football are one and the same thing. Even with the best will in the world, and an unlimited budget (and no offence intended) that wont ever be true.

So are there any resources in the tactics forum written along the lines of the quoted section above i.e. more "engineery" than "tactical"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all, my apologies for not returning sooner for answers and comments to those answering. I usually am about FM-Base and I come here mostly for bug reports or skins and a small look over the general, so I forgot I had commented here.

I really like your post and want to thank you. But on the way you explain it, you can change everything and everything could lead into everything.

Yeah, I understand you. When I got that idea to solve my issue and saw it work that's more or less what I thought. But it's not really so. It's like so many things in reality, a matter of circumstances and reading them. Yes, a pass shorter instruction may end resulting in long balls, but that's when certain other circusmtances join together. But otherwise it will make for shorter passes. It may happen with other things. And I think it's a wonderful thing this can happen, it doesn't mean in the end that anything can cause anything, it will be this will do that given these other related circusmtances (and I think this is a strong point for what Cleon81 always says about not changing more than one instruction to see how each change works); but what I think it actually is, is a sign that the engine has reached a level of complexity that gives it a bigger depth as a simulation that it could have without this happening. If hoofballs and too long passing couldn't happen as a result of asking too shorter passing I don't think the engine would get a great deal of depth and neither would it really work as a simulation (I don't really know how far it does work as simulation). It also makes me think the freedom of what we may do tactically is much greater than we would think by merely looking at what and how many instructions we have at our disposal.

Your comments here look more like an engineering description of a system than a description of typical human footballer behavior...

Yeah, I was from the point of view of how I see it being programmed. I think it's the only way to make that point. Once, over FM-Base, I tried to give that advice, but without the engineery explanation and then I got laughed at. I think because I didn't express in from programmer PoV, the knowing of it as a computer game made the other part dismiss the footballing terms and reject it from the not thought through idea of if it's a computer then shorter has always to mean shorter and longer mean longer, so removing shorter passing = ridiculous advice for shorter passing.

That makes me wonder if some or many of those points that are so recurrent and polemic are never ending because everyone is (including me when I get into them) talking about them in footballing terms with no reference to how things may be working "inside the computer". Unfortunately, I've never found anything like that.

The problem with that, I think, is that those who know how FM is implemented can't talk about it (the code isn't open, after all, so at least it would be hard to speak without inadvertently letting out more than they should) and those who can talk are us fans who don't actually know how it's implemented and just are guessing at how are the most logical ways things work.

And here a final piece of advice for all readers: if there's something or a problem you can't find understanding to or a solution, try thinking how would you program it, knowing it's not easy and it would probably have different ways to be done and the reality may differ greatly from what you think. Even if you get a clear idea of "this is the easier and simplest way to do it" it may not be so. But it's possible it ends giving you a good idea for a solution or answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...