Ablade

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New Position Training Does Not Work

95 posts in this topic

We've certainly established that position training is too limited.

I would of course be interested in any examples where you think that role/attribute training is not working as intended.

From my own data/observations I believe that role/attribute training is working correctly. Obviously attribute improvements will not be limited to just those related to that role, but there should be a certain bias.

The role suitability pie chart that you see in-game is based off of that player's role CA compared to overall CA. Role CA is calculated using attributes etc. If this pie chart is, in your experience, not accurately reflecting a player's abilities then that would be a separate bug, one for the guys over in UI - http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/522-User-Interface-Issues

Cheers,

Seb.

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Okay. I did some testing, you are correct, role/attributes do improve if you specifically train that role (if the player has fully learned the position of course). So yes, if you select (e.g.) Attacking Midfield Left and Inside Forward, those stats rise and the player role also slowly rises.

I think I know what was causing me some confusion, and I'm not sure if this is intended or not, but when players are set to "Playing Position", as far as I can tell, they do not progress stats at all (beyond the organic growth that young players go through). I'm assuming this is intended, because when you select "Playing Position" in the training menu none of the stats are highlighted? A bit bizarre if it was intended, as it effectively toggles training off!?

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I think I know what was causing me some confusion, and I'm not sure if this is intended or not, but when players are set to "Playing Position", as far as I can tell, they do not progress stats at all (beyond the organic growth that young players go through). I'm assuming this is intended, because when you select "Playing Position" in the training menu none of the stats are highlighted? A bit bizarre if it was intended, as it effectively toggles training off!?

I see it as a way of decreasing the player's workload while also being able to focus on one specific attribute. I.e. if the Team Workload is already high, placing him in a Playing Role training regiment in addition to a specific attribute would put the player(s) over the edge and cause too high a workload with the pursuing injury problems associated with it.

So, this is a way to keep training levels at an acceptable level, while still training a specific weakness, say in Pre-Season when fitness training is generally high.

Also, I don't think you turn training "off" for everything but the specific attribute. It just means the player won't put extra effort into the other attributes to increase them. So you're "telling your player" to bascially maintain his current attribute levels.

I could be misunderstanding it though and it is actually bugged, but other than the New Position Training mentioned at the beginning of the thread, I don't think it is.

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Just, just, just to make sure SI are aware - the same problem with training new position/role is happening in FM Touch.

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From what I see, the problem happened when we want to retrain player from an unfamiliar position. (But I'm sure the AI can do it)

But, what will happen if I retrain the player which already has familiarity level accomplish? Will it become natural or not?

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From what I see, the problem happened when we want to retrain player from an unfamiliar position. (But I'm sure the AI can do it)

But, what will happen if I retrain the player which already has familiarity level accomplish? Will it become natural or not?

Hey mightycow,

There's no difference here between what you and the AI can do. The code does not know whether it is the AI or a human providing the inputs.

Players can still improve their positional abilities, whether it be from Ineffectual or from Accomplished, it is just overly restrictive at present.

Cheers,

Seb.

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Hi All,

This is a crucial part of the game and therefore it is important that it is right. I just wanted to put my two pennies in with regards to a) my problems with retraining players for new positions past 'competent' and b) how I think it should work when fixed.

a) I think this has been established and is being looked at but I have been Havant & Waterlooville manager for six seasons and as is required of me as the manager of a small team, I need to retrain players to play in multiple positions. In 6 seasons I have not been able to train 1 player past competent, despite playing them in the required position for seasons on end and concurrently training them for the same position in training (forgoing the chance to train their stats for a certain role - very annoying). Players just get stuck on competent - all of them.

b) I agree with SI that the majority of training for a new position should be performed by playing in that position rather than in training. The nuances of a role and the instinct required to master it are things that can only be learned in competitive matches, not from a classroom or a training games. That said, the BASICS of a position can definitely be (and should be and probably are) taught in the classroom or in training games. The basic requirements/expectations of a player playing a certain position can be written on the back of a fag packet so I have a real issue with not being able to start training a player in a position unless he already has x amount of games playing that position. What is even more illogical about this is that a player goes away for summer, having trained at DC and played at DC for the past 5 seasons and when he turns up for pre-season I CAN'T TRAIN HIM IN THAT POSITION. I have to play him at DC for x games again before being able to continue to train him. And after 6 seasons he is still only competent...

So here's a skeleton view of how I believe it should work, with what I think it is a happy medium between the 'as is' and the equally unbalanced way some people want it to be where they think they should be able to train a player to accomplished just from training:

1 - retraining for a new position can be undertaken WITHOUT the player having played that position in ANY matches.

2 - a player can be trained to 'Awkward' (orange) just from training. No matches playing that position are required.

3 - further advancement to 'Accomplished' (dark green) can only be gotten through playing in that position. (At this point we should no longer have to train the player in the relevant position in training, allowing for specialisation into a certain role).

4 - Achievement of 'Natural' is not attainable for all players and can only be gotten in the following circumstances:

- from a player excelling in their new position (Thierry Henry from MR to SC)

- or the position being so close (conceptually not physically) to their natural position that it'd be silly for them not to be able to naturalise in it (eg WBL to DL or ML).

- Training starkly different positions (SC to DL or AMR to CB) should stay at Accomplished because they are mostly unrealistic in terms of naturalisation. (unless a player is truly exceptional at their new position (like seriously, the tits)).

- It should take time. Like at least a couple of seasons with many games played in that position for a player to naturalise.

5 - Once a player has naturalised he should never drop back to accomplished, even if he never plays that position again (but any other level should degenerate slowly if not played in the position)

The above strikes a balance and is realistic. You can't just train anyone for any position but through careful selection, persistence, commitment and patience, a player can be trained to accomplished. And with a little more of the aforementioned and a bit of luck, he might even naturalise.

The bottom line is, it shouldn't be easy but it should be possible.

Safe.

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Has one single person ever looked through the list of things wrong with FM and thought "I know what desperately needs changing; player position retraining" (before now)? It worked fine in previous versions. It was already implemented very well, worked well and was logical. Now it is none of those things.

Lots of things needed changing in this game. This absolutely wasn't one of them. Having seen it described above, even if it was implemented perfectly, would it really change the game to any significant degree for anyone over how it was previously implemented? The implementation described above is just different, not better in any way.

This very much feels like someone trying to enforce their will over something which was perfectly fine. Introducing a bug of this magnitude, and leaving it unpatched for so long, is a disgrace tbh.

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Hey Tannyrank,

Are you suggesting that you are unable to train a player in a position before he has played there? As that isn't/shouldn't be how it works at all.

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Has one single person ever looked through the list of things wrong with FM and thought "I know what desperately needs changing; player position retraining" (before now)? It worked fine in previous versions. It was already implemented very well, worked well and was logical. Now it is none of those things.

Lots of things needed changing in this game. This absolutely wasn't one of them. Having seen it described above, even if it was implemented perfectly, would it really change the game to any significant degree for anyone over how it was previously implemented? The implementation described above is just different, not better in any way.

This very much feels like someone trying to enforce their will over something which was perfectly fine. Introducing a bug of this magnitude, and leaving it unpatched for so long, is a disgrace tbh.

I don't believe this issue is much more than a bug Ablade. The reason you haven't received a fix yet is because the game hasn't received an update since it was discovered, my apologies you're having to wait.

Cheers,

Seb.

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Hey Tannyrank,

Are you suggesting that you are unable to train a player in a position before he has played there? As that isn't/shouldn't be how it works at all.

Hi Seb,

Yes that is exactly how it is for me. I thought it was intentional :lol:

So yes, I have to be playing the player in position for probably about 5 games before I can begin training that position. Otherwise when I select the new position it'll default immediately back to what ever the player is currently training.

If that's wrong then let me know and I'll upload a game.

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Has one single person ever looked through the list of things wrong with FM and thought "I know what desperately needs changing; player position retraining" (before now)? It worked fine in previous versions. It was already implemented very well, worked well and was logical. Now it is none of those things.

It worked fine and it had logic to it but in my opinion it was too easy and therefore unrealistic. However, that is a matter of opinion and I also share your frustrations with how it is in FM2016.

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Hi Seb,

Yes that is exactly how it is for me. I thought it was intentional :lol:

So yes, I have to be playing the player in position for probably about 5 games before I can begin training that position. Otherwise when I select the new position it'll default immediately back to what ever the player is currently training.

If that's wrong then let me know and I'll upload a game.

Could you please open up a new thread (in this section of the bugs' forum) for that one? In the interest of clarity it is best to keep each thread to one issue.

If you have a save and some steps to reproduce the issue that would be great.

I'll get back to you in the new thread.

Thank you kindly,

Seb.

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Could you please open up a new thread (in this section of the bugs' forum) for that one? In the interest of clarity it is best to keep each thread to one issue.

If you have a save and some steps to reproduce the issue that would be great.

I'll get back to you in the new thread.

Thank you kindly,

Seb.

Seb the new thread is called "Player position training problem"

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/451711-Player-position-training-problem?p=10712694#post10712694

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I don't believe this issue is much more than a bug Ablade. The reason you haven't received a fix yet is because the game hasn't received an update since it was discovered, my apologies you're having to wait.

Cheers,

Seb.

Sorry Seb. I don't mean to be impatient. The number of new bugs on each annual release combined with the massive waits between patch versions can be a bit frustrating sometimes.

I've played since the first version of CM on the Amiga. Each year I keep telling myself I'll wait 3 or 4 months after release to buy the next version (until it's been patched a couple of times), then every year, without fail, I run out and buy it enthusiastically on release day :lol:

Would a discussion on patch release frequency be welcomed (and if so, which forum would be the correct place to have the discussion)?

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Hey Ablade,

I understand your frustration and appreciate your patience. I can ensure you that we all want the same thing - the best game possible.

I'm afraid that this isn't the place, and I'm not the person, to answer your second question.

Cheers,

Seb.

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I wonder when next patch version to fix this problem is released. It's really frustrating that training new position to be natural simply doesn't work.

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I wonder when next patch version to fix this problem is released. It's really frustrating that training new position to be natural simply doesn't work.

Hey belovedmate,

As ever, it is "when it's ready to go".

A quick note, even after any fixes to this issue, it will not be a case of being able to train any player to be natural in any position. Players have a maximum level they can reach (sometimes of course this is natural), at which point they can improve no further in that position.

Cheers,

Seb.

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Hi. I have a player who is a natural left back (DL), however his natural player role is LFB (limited full bac&). Is there any way I can make the player be a natural full back instead? Because his stats are perfect for the full back role and suits my tactic. Thanks

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Hi. I have a player who is a natural left back (DL), however his natural player role is LFB (limited full bac&). Is there any way I can make the player be a natural full back instead? Because his stats are perfect for the full back role and suits my tactic. Thanks

Hey Kyle,

Role is based off of attributes, if you want him to be better at a certain role you would need to train the attributes related to it. Training him in that role would be a good start, then focus on specific attributes using "Additional Focus".

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This has been included in 16.3.

Cheers,

Seb.

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This has been included in 16.3.

Cheers,

Seb.

I came to ask if it was, as there's nothing in the patch notes, that I can see?. Just an omission? (in the patch notes, rather than the game, hopefully??)

If it is indeed fixed (I haven't tested yet), thanks to you all for your hard work! Especially you Seb :thup:

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Not everything was mentioned in the patch notes.

Great, that's what I hoped! Thanks dude.

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Thanks, Seb.

So, I need to choose winter database instead of default database to make sure that this problem is resolved?

Or, I can choose either winter or default db because the game is already get pactched?

Sorry, just little bit confused.

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Hey mightycow,

This should be save game compatible. So whether you start a new game (default DB or Winter DB) or continue a previous save started on 16.2 this should apply.

Cheers,

Seb.

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There's no difference here between what you and the AI can do. The code does not know whether it is the AI or a human providing the inputs.

Players can still improve their positional abilities, whether it be from Ineffectual or from Accomplished, it is just overly restrictive at present.

just wanted to correct this, in fact the AI can train the players' positional familiarity. I loaned my player to another club with a clause to make him play in an accomplished position(CM) instead of his natural position(DM), and the player saw an increase in positional familiarity from 15 to 18, which made him a Natural at CM. for a long time this has been my only method to train new positions, which isn't always successful. glad that the issue is fixed!

also another question, when I train a player in a new position AND role, say, train a DL into an inverted wingback-left, is it now possible to become natural at that position with the "ROLE" training, or do I still have to use the "Playing position" training

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is it now possible to become natural at that position with the "ROLE" training, or do I still have to use the "Playing position" training

I've seen no movement at all in half a season using role training since the patch (not quite long enough to come to a definite conclusion, I know). It would be crazy to split the training in two in that manner when the two things are so closely linked in all other areas of the game (not least in how the position/role suitability is presented to the player). Surely they wouldn't be so stupid? Although, I see little other reason to have the "playing position" option, as it doesn't seem to increase any stats?

This change has been a disaster from start to finish. Poorly implemented, poorly thought out, broken on arrival, left completely unfixed for almost half the life-cycle of the game, confusing and never properly explained (because even SI don't have a clue how it's supposed to work???). The worst thing about it is that there was nothing wrong with it in the first place!

Very disappointing :(

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well i actually thought the old system needed some tweaks too, since it was a bit too easy to train anyone into natural at many positions. but their implementation was just a disaster unnecessarily. it's frustrating because to some people, they don't even care about players' positions and never notice the change at all, while to some people (like us) this is a crucial part of the game. also some guides/websites unknowingly "teach" you about how to train your players and how to fit them into your tactic etc, but it's not even unavailable in the game

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Let's keep this on track. If you are having an issue please do upload a save illustrating this issue.

To clarify:

- Training 'Role' will train the relative 'Position'.

- AI and human managers have the same tools available to them and should experience the same outputs given the same inputs.

- 'Playing position' acts as if the player were taking part in training as that position, eg. a generic striker (rather than eg. specifically a F9). It will train attributes accordingly. The main advantage to this is it is a lower workload.

- Despite the changes in 16.3 it is still possible for a player to see no improvement in a position. It should be relatively rare for a player to be able to gain a new natural position, especially quickly. Many players may reach a ceiling at, for example, 16. This depends on their attributes and suitability for the new position.

Cheers,

Seb.

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As always, thanks for both your reply and patience Seb. I do have a question though:

"Training 'Role' will train the relative 'Position'"

I'm glad of this, it clears a few things up. But to go back to the discussion above, if I can train a (i.e.) left winger to be a right inside forward by going Attacking Midfielder Right -> Inside Forward (which is what I think you are saying does work?), what is the point of the "Playing Position" training? When you select any role type training it highlights a number of attributes, and those attributes seem to rise because you've selected that training. When you select "playing position", no attributes are highlighted. So if "playing position" doesn't improve attributes, and it doesn't improve playing position any more/less than role training, why would anybody ever use it?

Worryingly, if you leave training to your coach/assistant, many players are assigned playing position training and it seems to be the default when you sign a new player. Which surely means any players being trained by staff, or players you've perhaps overlooked, get far less effective training??? (or absolutely no training if they are playing in their natural position!!!).

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As always, thanks for both your reply and patience Seb. I do have a question though:

"Training 'Role' will train the relative 'Position'"

I'm glad of this, it clears a few things up. But to go back to the discussion above, if I can train a (i.e.) left winger to be a right inside forward by going Attacking Midfielder Right -> Inside Forward (which is what I think you are saying does work?), what is the point of the "Playing Position" training? When you select any role type training it highlights a number of attributes, and those attributes seem to rise because you've selected that training. When you select "playing position", no attributes are highlighted. So if "playing position" doesn't improve attributes, and it doesn't improve playing position any more/less than role training, why would anybody ever use it?

Worryingly, if you leave training to your coach/assistant, many players are assigned playing position training and it seems to be the default when you sign a new player. Which surely means any players being trained by staff, or players you've perhaps overlooked, get far less effective training??? (or absolutely no training if they are playing in their natural position!!!).

- 'Playing position' acts as if the player were taking part in training as that position, eg. a generic striker (rather than eg. specifically a F9). It will train attributes accordingly. The main advantage to this is it is a lower workload.

It is effectively the equivalent of the old "None" option under 'Focus' from FM15.

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Hi Seb,

I'm sorry but i don't think this is the case. i can understand where Kyle is coming from as i have a player who has all attributes to be a "Deep Lying Forward" but he is only 7/10 on the RDS in the tactics screen. He has been trained on Deep Lying forward role for 3 years and although his stats in that area have improved, his RDS still only says competent..

surely if they have the relevant attracts along with the correct training over a long period, they should be getting better in that role suitability?

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I have to agree with Ablade.

There are various problems with the actual set without even going into the results. Sometimes things that aren't broken do not need fixing.

I have been playing for 3 seasons with Inter Milan since the bug fix and i play a flat 442. i sign Andrija Zivkovic after the 1st season. he is only accomplished RM so i have been re-training him @ RM Winger for 2 seasons and he is still only accomplished and his RDS is still only 6/10..

whats the point of putting the RDS on there is there is no way of improving it??

I know you can't always create the best game every year and there are always going to be teething problems but this game has been a step backwards from the beginning and has been left unfixed for far too long,

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- 'Playing position' acts as if the player were taking part in training as that position, eg. a generic striker (rather than eg. specifically a F9). It will train attributes accordingly. The main advantage to this is it is a lower workload.

It is effectively the equivalent of the old "None" option under 'Focus' from FM15.

does a striker training generic playing position still have different attributes effected compared to a defender training playing position? or is it 100% just focuses on team training?

oh and why is the online manuel for FM15 it confusd me when it started talking about setting levels for individual focus training?

Thanks

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Let's keep this on track. If you are having an issue please do upload a save illustrating this issue.

To clarify:

- Training 'Role' will train the relative 'Position'.

- AI and human managers have the same tools available to them and should experience the same outputs given the same inputs.

- 'Playing position' acts as if the player were taking part in training as that position, eg. a generic striker (rather than eg. specifically a F9). It will train attributes accordingly. The main advantage to this is it is a lower workload.

- Despite the changes in 16.3 it is still possible for a player to see no improvement in a position. It should be relatively rare for a player to be able to gain a new natural position, especially quickly. Many players may reach a ceiling at, for example, 16. This depends on their attributes and suitability for the new position.

Cheers,

Seb.

So to my reading of this essentially means that my 18 year old attacking midfield I'm retraining to play as a central midfielder is likely never going to be natural in the position. Is that realistic? Surely young players should be more easily retrained (particularly when they're under 18).

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So to my reading of this essentially means that my 18 year old attacking midfield I'm retraining to play as a central midfielder is likely never going to be natural in the position. Is that realistic? Surely young players should be more easily retrained (particularly when they're under 18).

This certainly does not mean that your 18 year old AMC will never become a natural MC.

As a natural AMC he is likely to possess many of the attributes of a natural MC, meaning his maximum reachable rating at MC will probably be high. He is also young, which means there is plenty of time to further improve his attributes as you see fit.

Age does not directly affect what the maximum reachable rating for a position is, it does however impact the speed at which a player is capable of picking up a new position (along with many other factors).

Cheers,

Seb.

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Hi Seb,

I'm sorry but i don't think this is the case. i can understand where Kyle is coming from as i have a player who has all attributes to be a "Deep Lying Forward" but he is only 7/10 on the RDS in the tactics screen. He has been trained on Deep Lying forward role for 3 years and although his stats in that area have improved, his RDS still only says competent..

surely if they have the relevant attracts along with the correct training over a long period, they should be getting better in that role suitability?

Hey gattuso11,

As far as the rating out of 10 for each role is concerned it is simply a UI representation of attribute weightings relative to position relative to the squad.

Training directly affects attribute development. These attributes are then used, along with position, to present a graphical representation of a players under-the-hood role score for the selected position.

Cheers,

Seb.

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I have to agree with Ablade.

There are various problems with the actual set without even going into the results. Sometimes things that aren't broken do not need fixing.

I have been playing for 3 seasons with Inter Milan since the bug fix and i play a flat 442. i sign Andrija Zivkovic after the 1st season. he is only accomplished RM so i have been re-training him @ RM Winger for 2 seasons and he is still only accomplished and his RDS is still only 6/10..

whats the point of putting the RDS on there is there is no way of improving it??

I know you can't always create the best game every year and there are always going to be teething problems but this game has been a step backwards from the beginning and has been left unfixed for far too long,

If you reckon you have a bug please do upload the example.

However this simply sounds like Zivkovic cannot improve any further at MR, which considering he has a large amount of positions to his name already does not seem unreasonable to me.

The reason a player's positional ability needs to be capped at some point is to prevent exploits. It should not however limit the reasonable training of players. Accomplished is only one step down from Natural and means he is exceptionally capable of performing in that position.

Following 16.3 I believe this area is now working as intended. Any further bugs please do let me know along with uploading the example and I'll be glad to take a look.

Cheers,

Seb.

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does a striker training generic playing position still have different attributes effected compared to a defender training playing position? or is it 100% just focuses on team training?

oh and why is the online manuel for FM15 it confusd me when it started talking about setting levels for individual focus training?

Thanks

Hey sjewitt,

Yes a striker training in his playing position will have the attributes for each striking role trained, a centre back will have the attributes for each centre back role trained. The centre back won't be training finishing. However there will not be as much focus (workload) on this as there would be on specific role (/attribute) training, as such results will be slower and more general but will leave more time for other training (or rest).

Cheers,

Seb.

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This certainly does not mean that your 18 year old AMC will never become a natural MC.

As a natural AMC he is likely to possess many of the attributes of a natural MC, meaning his maximum reachable rating at MC will probably be high. He is also young, which means there is plenty of time to further improve his attributes as you see fit.

Age does not directly affect what the maximum reachable rating for a position is, it does however impact the speed at which a player is capable of picking up a new position (along with many other factors).

Cheers,

Seb.

Thanks for the response.

As it turns out he became "natural" according to my Head of Youth developed the match following this post...

...anyhow... I was just a bit worried after reading how it was worded there. Seems to work quite well since the last patch, sadly I haven't had much of a chance to play this year.

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Thanks for the response.

As it turns out he became "natural" according to my Head of Youth developed the match following this post...

...anyhow... I was just a bit worried after reading how it was worded there. Seems to work quite well since the last patch, sadly I haven't had much of a chance to play this year.

Pleased to hear it Some Guy. As ever, let me know if you have any further issues :)

Cheers,

Seb.

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Please solve this issue in the next FM because it is complete ridiculous and unreal...

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Please solve this issue in the next FM because it is complete ridiculous and unreal...

Hi Bad-Religion,

I'm not sure what you are referring to here? This issue was resolved in 16.3. Are you having further issues?

Cheers,

Seb.

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hi guys,

i just wanted to share my experiences retaining positions

i am currently playing Russian league taking  Krylia Sovetov Samara. i have bought a few cheapo and good russian players but the issue is alot of them need some kind of position re-training to fit my team 442 formation

below are the players i bought

Dmitry Stotsky AMR - 1st full season to train him to be fully a MR(20) - SUCCESS!!!

Maksim Grigoryev  AML - 1.5 seasons training him to be a Targetman(16) but so far no success.....

Roman Yemelyanov DMC - i bought him in 2nd season,  spend only 0.5 seasons training him to be a DC(18) - SUCCESS!!!

Arseny Logashov DR - 1st full season to train him to a DL(18) - SUCCESS!!!

For Maksim Grigoryev - i notice by accident when i focus training him on his STRENGTH from 12 to 14. suddenly he become a much better Targetman under Tatics screen. from unconvincing to competent. even though his positional rating as Targetman is still only 16....

so actually some playing attributes example Strenght in my case does affect Position status

Thanks

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