Ablade

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New Position Training Does Not Work

95 posts in this topic

Hi Guys,

I use a formation utilising inside forwards, which quite often means I have to train my players to play on the opposite side they are comfortable playing on (i.e. a left footer on the right wing).

So here's the problem: I set myself up to make personal training changes, then go to the player, and (using the example given before, the left footed player I want to move to the right) I go to development, position/role and select "Attacking Midfield Right" and "Inside Forward". I wait 18 months or so, I can see the correct (inside forward) stats rising over that time, but the player simply won't learn the position.

This isn't just one player, this is ALL Of my players. Using Sheffield United as an example, I want Che Adams and Jose Baxter to learn the play left wing, inside forward and I want Diego De Girolamo and Matty Done to learn right wing, inside forward. 18 months later, they are still exactly the same proficiency for those roles as when I started! Exactly (I loaded up a new game and checked!). In that time I've been promoted to the Championship, I have 16 "Coaching Staff" (not including under 21s, etc), and I am rated top in every training category in the league (so almost certainly not due to coaching I'd suggest?).

I've used Inside Forward as an example here, but I'm pretty sure I'm also seeing this in other positions (I don't recall a player ever learning a new position!). I understand the stats are quite important, but like I said, I'm seeing this in different save games, with many different players!:eek:

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Hi,

I've been trying to train a couple of players to play in new positions all year- but there's been no progress on any of the new position training (from accomplished to natural for example) over the course of the season.

For example trying to get Probst to convert to AMC over his natural ST position. I've trained him for that the entire season, but not a squeak has been increased according to Genie Scout.

Could this be fixed?

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Hey there,

There could be a couple of reasons for this.

1) You need to play a player in the position you are training him for him to see development past a certain point.

2) He may have reached the limit on what he is able to learn within the confines of his CA/role CA.

Hope that helps.

Seb.

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I'm having the same problem, I have a player who I've been training/playing at left back for 2 seasons and I've seen no improvement at all even though he has improved significantly during that period.

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Hey there,

There could be a couple of reasons for this.

1) You need to play a player in the position you are training him for him to see development past a certain point.

2) He may have reached the limit on what he is able to learn within the confines of his CA/role CA.

Hope that helps.

Seb.

In previous FMs that wasn't true though- I once had a regen who was only competent at centre mid become natural after 2 seasons, without ever playing him in central midfield until he became natural at it.

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I hate to side with a blade but I'm having the same issue. Is this being looked at as I've seen (and commented) on another thread regarding this but it seems to be slipping through the cracks

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Agree with OP. Having the IGE, it seems that when we train a player in another position, the value of the learning position rises from its starting point up to 12, but seems to stay at 12 after that, making the player unable to play at this other position since it must be at least 15...

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I find it a bit curious...

IMO, a player should learn to be a - at least - good at a position before beginning to play at this position in a match, that's why training exists... If a player learn a position by playing at this position in matchs, what is the need to train him to this position...

I'm not sure if I'm clear, so what about "If you want to learn how to mount a PC, you read books (Or ask a friend) before, you surely don't try to mount this or that and try until it works"...

Or there's something I don't understand... Sorry in this case...

And yes, in all previous FM, a player learned a new position until he was good enough to play at this position...

Edit : more info

I see with the IGE that a trained player has his new position rise from its original value up to 12, but stays at 12 after that... I never send a player in a position where he has less than 15...

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hello I also have same problem. even I use players in this position almost every match, there is no improvement about new position. This players are young and they have plenty of CA left to improve. Some of the are not even improving even 1 point(which are 12 or more) and some doesnt improve after 12. It is really annoying coz I play turkish league and with foreign player registiration rule i need to use turkish players in different positions

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Hey all,

This is an area that has been tweaked for this year's version.

Players need to play in a position to continue improving past a certain point. Players will also reach a maximum number of positions (and positional ability in those) dependent on their role CAs (this is relative to their CA, positions and applicable attributes).

I understand that the feedback on this in-game is not as clear as it could be, please accept my apologies here. We are looking into improving this for future versions.

Of course if you think that, with the above in mind, there is a player that should be learning a new position that isn't, please do upload the save and I will happily take a look. Details on uploading here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/441296

Cheers,

Seb.

NB. Merging the two threads on this.

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I understand this, but IMO the player must be at least good at a position (Meaning 15) before making play at this position...

What I see would be correct IMO, with the values :

A player is trained to a certain position (So he is between 1 and 14 at this position).

- Training him makes him improve his position up to 15 (And not 12 as it seems to be the case for the moment). He can't improve by training after he reaches 15.

- A player can only improve from 15 to 18 or 20 only by playing in this role (Under 15, I consider him unable to play at this position). Continue the training while he plays in this position to be determined.

- A player can improve from 1 to 15 by playing too, but not as quick as with training.

In fact, I think the only problem here is the choice to have 12 as the limit where a player can't improve anymore with a position training. It should be 15, since 10 to 14 is average (Meaning for me : unable to play correctly at this position), and 15-19 is good (Meaning for me : able to play correctly at this position).

I should have been promoted if I knew that change in FM, you know ? How can I explain that to my chairman now ? (Take that last sentence as a ending post joke... :p :p :p)

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Hey Racatte,

Thanks for the considered thoughts :thup:

The differences between whether/when a player is considered "able to play" in a position is a subjective one.

Whether "Competent" is considered as good enough to play there, or "Accomplished" can be reached without ever playing a single match there, is a matter of opinion. We always try to balance these things realistically, but of course not everyone can agree.

Hopefully you can see the logic behind this system being in place. It is also important to remember the other factor; some players will simply have reached the limit on what new positions they can reasonably learn.

If you do have an example where you think it is either not working as intended or being treated very harshly however, I urge you to upload it. I am always happy to investigate such issues :)

Your post may be best in the Wishlist thread (found here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/306914-What-s-that-A-new-Wishlist-Thread-What-you-would-like-to-see-in-future-FM-versions), as it ventures into feature changes for future versions rather than a bug.

Cheers,

Seb.

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Hey Seb !

Thanks to you too... :)

I tried to explain my feelings as much as I can, since English is not my mothertongue (I'm French), and I'm far (far !) better reading English than speaking or writing it.

I really understand your point of view, and that made me think of another little problem here.

Btw, I clearly understand the possibility that a player can't obtain a position if his CA is near his PA. In everything I said, it is about a player who can obtain a new position without the "CA near PA" problem.

To be simple, this is directly about the 12 value... If I perfectly understand (I hope !), with only the training, a player can only improve up to 12, and no more. The problem is with the color code : 12 is in the middle of the yellow color range of 10 to 14...

The point is : how do we know (without the IGE) that a player as trained as much as he can, and that it's now time to progress now on the field... We see a yellow circle, but how do we know if he still can be trained, or if it's time to run on the field ?

I propose two solutions :

1) Change the color code (or the color range), to have the trained position change color exactly when the value of 12 is reached, so we can say "Hey, he can't train any better, now I must let him play some match to make him obtain this new position").

Like : 1 transparent, 2-5 : red, 6-9 : orange, 10-11 : dark yellow, 12-15 : yellow, 16-19 : bright green, 20 : green

This way, when we see the circle becoming yellow, we'll know it's time to play...

2) Add a new item, like "Your AssMan informs you that (player) has trained as much as he can in the new position, and now needs to play at this position to be competent", or something like that.

In fact, the first point would be nearly the same as before when 15 was the limit from yellow to green and at the same time would tell us that the player has obtained the position...

I'll try to reorganise my thoughts to post in the Wishlist thread, since it shouldn't be too hard to (at least) change the color range to highlight the 12 mark. Maybe not as easy as to add a new item like the second point on the other side... :p

I hope I didn't make to much mistakes in my little post... I tried not to think in French then translating in English, but to think directly in English... :p

Cheers,

Racatte.

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I have to say, if this is an intended change, I absolutely hate it, quite possibly over any change ever made in the history of FM/CM! I still don't think it is implemented as planned, and still suspect there may be a bug somewhere, my players DO play in those positions, one constantly, I'm now in 2017 and have still seen no movement (funnily enough, I've just replaced Done on the right wing, he's still first sub for that position but played there for 2 years, he's still in the yellow band for Role/Duty. I understand there is a cap (maybe I've hit it?), but I see almost the exact same thing on the other wing a young starting player (and other players who've moved on, because they simply were just not progressing).

At this rate Matt Done will become accustomed to playing right-inside forward at roughly the same time he collects his first pension cheque :lol:

Surely this can't be as planned? Who on earth plays a player out of position for multiple (3, 4, 5, more?) years in some vague hope he doesn't hit a cap along the way? I'm not kidding when I say that, unless my player has hit the cap (which would be annoying, as I have no feedback of this, and he was able to change wing quite easily last year) it is looking like it would take him his entire career to move to the opposite wing! I look forward to him turning green for his testimonial!

I've been lucky enough to be playing as a team which is a strong favourite for promotion (yes, I open myself to ridicule; if only real life could echo in-game!) in the first season and an expectation to avoid relegation in the second season, so have been afforded the luxury of been able to take my time and try and train players (non of whom have progressed at all as far as I can see!). With different expectations on another team I could easily see this issue being the difference between success and the sack!

TBH, from now on I'm just going to approach position retraining as though it is broken (which it is, intended or not!). Which is a bit of a downer because reverse footed wing-players (with the correct stats) can be a pain to find at the best of times, it was always easier to find a poacher or a naturally footed player and retrain him (which I do think IS realistic, they are effectively operating as poachers bombing in from the wing, with a creative CF feeding them in - that's how it looks in play, and in the number of assists by the CF and goals by my wingers!).

Seb, if you haven't already done so, could you at least try retraining the position of some young players on your active game, so you can at least see yourself how this is (or isn't) working out for me and the other posters on this thread please?

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There's definitely an issue here. I have a CB who i have been training as a left back for the past 3 seasons (since he was 17), during that time he has been my 1st choice left back. I have been training him at "defender left - full back" which has shown absolutely no improvement in 3 seasons despite his stats massively improving. This season i have stopped training at left back and instead trained him under "playing position". He is now finally improving at left back. I think the issue seems to be they don't train in the correct position when you do it via roles.

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Hey again all.

Thanks for taking the time to post.

If you happen to have one, could you please take a moment to upload a save where you think there is an issue? We will certainly take a look into it.

Details on uploading to our FTP can be found here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/441296

Cheers,

Seb.

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I can if the historic stats are any good to you? I've literally given up trying to make this work. I now have my coaches set to run all training, never play a player out of position/try to learn a new position and only ever buy players who can already play in the position I want (which is very disappointing, noticing a player had great stats for a different position always made the game slightly more interesting for me).

So I'm not sure if my save is of any use to you now?

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Hey Ablade,

It's certainly worth a look, thanks.

The system hasn't changed to the extreme that you suggest, it is still very possible to re-model a player's positions. For example, I have re-trained a ST > DC and MC > DR. The situations where a player simply does not improve any further in a position will be due to him already having a lot of positions or attribute weighting.

My apologies if this is detracting from your enjoyment, rest assured it is something we are looking at to ensure it remains logical.

Cheers,

Seb.

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Training players in "playing position" works but means you can only train your first 11 in a new position and you have to play them "out of position" for x amount of time. Training them in a specific role (ie defender left - full back) will only train them to a level of 12 (according to genie scout, I cheat i know) no matter how good your player is (in my case world class/wonderkid) and how long you play them in the position for (3 full seasons in the prem). Changing the same player to "playing position" improved his left back attribute to 15 in 3 months so i know he wasn't capped for any reason.

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Hey berridgeswfc,

Thanks for the post.

I'd certainly be interested in taking a look at a save where this is the case. If you have it, please do upload.

I'd wonder however if this is not the "playing position" training that is doing the job but rather actually playing the player in said position. Obviously it's not possible to train a player in "playing position" without playing them there. Clearly there is an issue separating cause and effect here, but I suspect it may be the match time in that position that is helping improve the position.

Cheers,

Seb.

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Hi Seb, the player in question was playing at left back, he was first choice. Unless it takes 100+ games in a position before you get to see any improvement then i suspect it was me changing his training from "left back - full back" to "playing position" that made the difference.

I'll upload the file at some point, you'll see my left winger plays on the right but doesn't seem to be showing improvement past a certain level, i imaging if you change his training to "playing position" it'll suddenly improve.

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Hey Ablade,

It's certainly worth a look, thanks.

The system hasn't changed to the extreme that you suggest, it is still very possible to re-model a player's positions. For example, I have re-trained a ST > DC and MC > DR. The situations where a player simply does not improve any further in a position will be due to him already having a lot of positions or attribute weighting.

My apologies if this is detracting from your enjoyment, rest assured it is something we are looking at to ensure it remains logical.

Cheers,

Seb.

The real issue for me lies when I want to retrain a player accomplished in AML into ML... For example, Ricky Alvarez or even Wilshere, if you are playing a 4411 formation instead of a 4231 and you're looking to retrain any of these 2 players, since they are natural in 2 positions and accomplished in 2 positions, it becomes impossible to retrain them appropriately to a ML or MR position which they are competent in. It's the only detraction i currently have...

That being said, if there was a way to have a player sacrifice his "knowledge" of AML in trade of ML, I'd have no issues with that, since it is hard to believe a player having 6 or 7 positions he is considered accomplished in.

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Please do upload the save when you have a moment berridgeswfc.

Cheers,

Seb.

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Uploaded, file's called "Ryan". If your looking for a player Marcel Pinheiro played left wing all season under "left midfielder - winger" training. He's got as far as "12" in that position. If you play a season with the same training he wont improve, if you change it to "playing position" he will.

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Training players in "playing position" works but means you can only train your first 11 in a new position and you have to play them "out of position" for x amount of time. Training them in a specific role (ie defender left - full back) will only train them to a level of 12 (according to genie scout, I cheat i know) no matter how good your player is (in my case world class/wonderkid) and how long you play them in the position for (3 full seasons in the prem). Changing the same player to "playing position" improved his left back attribute to 15 in 3 months so i know he wasn't capped for any reason.

Interesting, I wonder if it is training them in the specific role that locks the stat to 12? (even if you play them there), as this would certainly explain why I've seen no movement at all, and would fit the change Seb has told us has been implemented! (obviously locking the stat to 12 wasn't intended, but if there's a bit of rogue code in there saying something along the lines of "if training = new position, max <new position> stat = 12" it may have been overlooked when adding the code to increasing the stat when playing in that position?).

I'm going to load up my game and do some testing :)

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Hi Seb its good to know that you are trying to make the game realistic. but realistically we do see a lot of strikers being converted to wingers, left wingers to right wingers, and CAM to CM. Sadly in my game none of the players i have tried to train for a new positions have been successful. If its a bug then its cool but if it is intentional I think you guys need to rethink on the logic bcos it is damn annoying.

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Hey kumarrishianand,

The way it works currently is not entirely intentional. This is an issue we are currently reviewing for a future version.

Thanks for posting.

Seb.

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Uploaded, file's called "Ryan". If your looking for a player Marcel Pinheiro played left wing all season under "left midfielder - winger" training. He's got as far as "12" in that position. If you play a season with the same training he wont improve, if you change it to "playing position" he will.

Thanks berridgeswfc.

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Please put it back to the way it was <=2015 Seb. Change isn't always progress :)

Unfortunately it isn't always that simple, but don't worry we are looking into this.

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I'm having the same problem, I have a player who I've been training/playing at left back for 2 seasons and I've seen no improvement at all even though he has improved significantly during that period.

I'm 6 years with Spartak Moscow and I could not train a single player in any position in which they were not already natural. And by that I mean that they did not improve in the slightest. One of my regens have been training in the AML position for 6 years, and he is still only "competent" in it. He have been playing only in that position for 6 years since he was 16. Last year my coach advised me I was playing him out of position and suggested the training of new position, I accepted the advice only to see what I was doing wrong. The coach selected the same training he was getting for 5 years, AML, and still, I had no advance into that position. I'm pretty sure this is a technical error, since it's happening with high capped PA youngsters and through 6 years of gameplay. I will try to train the "playing position" as suggested but I urge you to look into those issues.

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I'm 6 years with Spartak Moscow and I could not train a single player in any position in which they were not already natural. And by that I mean that they did not improve in the slightest. One of my regens have been training in the AML position for 6 years, and he is still only "competent" in it. He have been playing only in that position for 6 years since he was 16. Last year my coach advised me I was playing him out of position and suggested the training of new position, I accepted the advice only to see what I was doing wrong. The coach selected the same training he was getting for 5 years, AML, and still, I had no advance into that position. I'm pretty sure this is a technical error, since it's happening with high capped PA youngsters and through 6 years of gameplay. I will try to train the "playing position" as suggested but I urge you to look into those issues.

Hey keysersozenosk,

As mentioned above, this issue is already being looked into with a future update in mind.

Cheers,

Seb.

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looks like future update didn't help!

Nothing involving this issue was included in 16.2 unfortunately.

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Thanks for looking at this and looking forward to the update.

Question (to anyone): Is the workaround to place a player in individual training "Position -> Role", then, ahem, cheat and check when his positional value is 12, and then change to "Playing Position"?

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or you can train the role until it's competent and then switch to position training. anyway, i hope this is fixed soon, it ruins my game and i got so frustrated that i edited my players positional fluency who spend over a season learning a position to natural... and i will certainly be editing this for my youths straight away, since it's not possible now to train any youth to accomplished in a new position now. and editing is something i never did, and it ruins the game for me, so i hope it will be addressed in the next update. btw it's frustrating how many bugs reported in previous versions are still in the new fm. they should be fixed with updates to previous versions, yet they are not even fixed for new release.... i'd suggest, instead of changing the ui every release, focusing on cleaning up the game...

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Okay thanks for all the information, it's something we'll look to tweak in a future update.

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Thanks for looking at this and looking forward to the update.

Question (to anyone): Is the workaround to place a player in individual training "Position -> Role", then, ahem, cheat and check when his positional value is 12, and then change to "Playing Position"?

thanks for the link Katana ,but it wasn't very helpful ,

i have a lot of players that are stuck to 12 indeed ,

so,what we can do now ? wait for 16.3 ?

i think i ll start FMT :)

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thanks for the link Katana ,but it wasn't very helpful ,

i have a lot of players that are stuck to 12 indeed ,

so,what we can do now ? wait for 16.3 ?

From further up the thread: "Uploaded, file's called "Ryan". If your looking for a player Marcel Pinheiro played left wing all season under "left midfielder - winger" training. He's got as far as "12" in that position. If you play a season with the same training he wont improve, if you change it to "playing position" he will."

So the "solution" is to change the "Position Training" to "Playing Position" when the player reaches 12 in the position. That should make the player keep improving.

Sorry you didn't find it helpful ;)

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I had this issue in the end I decided to buy the in-game editor and give the players a little push! But it would be nice if players became naturals without the need to do this.

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I had this issue in the end I decided to buy the in-game editor and give the players a little push! But it would be nice if players became naturals without the need to do this.

Hi kcbl,

did you do this by just nudging them past 12, ie. setting the position at 13, or did you have to nudge them a bit further?

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From further up the thread: "Uploaded, file's called "Ryan". If your looking for a player Marcel Pinheiro played left wing all season under "left midfielder - winger" training. He's got as far as "12" in that position. If you play a season with the same training he wont improve, if you change it to "playing position" he will."

So the "solution" is to change the "Position Training" to "Playing Position" when the player reaches 12 in the position. That should make the player keep improving.

Sorry you didn't find it helpful ;)

this solution hasn't worked for me either. I changed them to "playing position" and waited nearly 2 months but non of my players improved to 13.

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this solution hasn't worked for me either. I changed them to "playing position" and waited nearly 2 months but non of my players improved to 13.

Then I guess the solution is to "nudge" them a little with the Editor if you have that. Atleast until the next patch comes out...which I hope will be soon ;)

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Any word on when this might be fixed guys? I know you said it is in progress, but there's been a couple of updates since starting this thread. I do hope this is a priority, and not something left on the back-burner.

You probably don't need me to tell you how important role/positional suitability is in the game engine. This bug doesn't just affect "big" positional changes, like teaching a player to play on the opposite wing, it affects almost every player in the game. Looking through my tactic/squad, more than half the players in my team are slightly below 10 bars in role suitability, and I'm aware of this bug and try to plan my transfers accordingly! All of them are just very slightly "incorrect" positionally, e.g. a limited full back playing as a full back, or a player on support instead of attack. In previous years, a player would make slow but steady progress and eventually become fully accomplished, now, they just stay at 8 or 9 bars. It is incredibly frustrating.

The way things are now, leads to a manager either signing players who are natural at that position (severely reducing the number of options of player for any position) or altering your tactics each game, and even during the game, to suit the player who you want to accommodate (to use an example, if I'm playing with attacking overlapping wingbacks, it isn't realistic to stick a player on as a defending limited full back just so he fulfills his artificially imposed role requirement?). It also makes experimenting with tactics almost impossible without transfers, as you tend to have a set of players who fit into your positional needs (and of course, they'll never learn to play outside of those roles).

Almost every single FM2016 player (except the few who do alter their squads to accommodate their players' best role) has a squad containing players who are permanently nerfed (by being slightly out of position/role) by this bug. Tactically speaking, this is a game-breaking bug, and to take to it's logical conclusion, this issue translates into results, which makes it an even more serious game-breaking bug!

Please, please look to fix this ASAP!

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I'm having the same problem, I have a player who I've been training/playing at left back for 2 seasons and I've seen no improvement at all even though he has improved significantly during that period.

Im having the same problem. I have a game with Inter and have been playing Perisic as a poacher up front for 2.5 years. The whole time his individual training has been set to forward>poacher but his RDS is still only 4 segments and role ability is still only .5 stars. his overall rating at forward has still not progressed past competent.

it has gone back to the version of years ago unfortunately as i now have to sell all players that do not fit into my system and purchased ones that do..

needs sorting ASAP as i may go back to playing 2015..

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FMRTE or the in-game editor. I was wondering why after 3 years with Arsenal I was not able to retrain even one single winger to be a striker. Or fullbacks to play on both flanks.

If I am right, the old system made a player forget another acomplished position if he was retrained on a new one, and his versatility was not big enough. That was working fine. Now if you need to retrain a player in a similar position, I wonder how realistic it is to take 10 years. Because for example, you only retrain a winger to striker if he has good finishing skills, etc.

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Hey all,

Just wanted to respond to some of the posts above.

Firstly, this is an issue I can assure you that we are well aware of and working on for a future update. It is not being forgotten about.

Secondly, I think there may be a little confusion between Role and Position here. Positional ability of course affects role suitability but, providing they can play the position, attributes have the greater impact. Footedness also impacts on a wide player's role scoring.

In your example above, Ablade, it sounds as if that player can already play the position of Fullback, therefore it is his attributes that are resulting in his role suitability. You would need to train the attributes specific to Wingback in order to improve his role suitability. Further training at fullback isn't going to make a difference between two roles that occupy the same position.

Cheers,

Seb.

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Thanks for the reply Seb, but unless I'm very much mistaken, it is positional/role training that isn't working? (at all, for roles OR position). A few years into the game (I think I'm up to 2021 or 2022), I've never seen a player improve position OR role. And judging by the comments above, that seems to be the case for everyone? (I'd just assumed you knew this).

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I think you're misunderstanding the difference between Position and Role. Position being the literal position on the pitch, Role the job the player does within that position.

Role training simply trains a player in the attributes highlighted for that role. Therefore, if the player improves in those attributes he improves in that role.

The player's effectiveness in each role in the selected position is judged by the Assistant Manager and displayed under "Role and Duty" on the player's Overview > Profile page. These are based off of how well the player scores for that specific role, with attributes, footedness etc. making up this score. He will score the maximum for his best role in his best position according to role CA.

Hope that helps,

Seb.

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Seb, I'm curious, do you allocate individual training to staff? We are talking about the same thing, and I absolutely understand what you are saying. I'm linking the two because in the individual training screen you can select position/role training, so for example I can train a player to be a left winger, or a left inside forward, or a <whatever position><whatever role in that position>.

I think we've established that position isn't improving? (I hope!), but I'm also questioning whether the role you select actually improves the stats suited to that role. I'm just not seeing players increasing in role suitability, and when stats do increase, I tend to find many improve at the same time (certainly not just those stats being being focused on in the role setting). Looking around my squad currently at those who have improved stats, I can see very little correlation between the stats that have increased and the position/role training they've been assigned. TBH, I'm not 100% on this second point (I am absolutely sure positioning is not changing, far less confident about stats increasing based on the role selected). I'll do some more testing and get back to you!

It seems to be a popular thread, maybe others have noticed this?

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