How to get forwards geting behind The ball(defending)

[Amunt]

When i play a defensive 4-2-2-2 Wide(narrow) and want my forwards to fall back covering in midfield or pressning to make it easier for my mf to mark players, The forwards just stay upfront walking around like morons. Setting them to defensive forward does not help. Only tight marking The opponents CMs work butik thats just stupid. I could switch to 4-2-2-2 DM maybe.

Im playing a 4-2-2-2 narrow counter attacking football with The defense line at various positions. and i want my forwards to help as we play like a Unit. Im kinda trying to implement Diego Simeones playing style into the game with my Valencia. Ive completely fallen in love and become obsessed with his tactics. I actually did pretty well in the beta forcing the opponent to the wings and didnt concede much goals at all. But now when the game is out im making a new save that I will keep to until next game comes out.

Does anyone know if there is a way to do this, preferably not by using Defensive Forward role, I mean a Deep lying forward could still be able to stay behind the ball and cut off passing lanes IRL. I play with Valencia and Negredo is actually pretty good att defending, I Think Paco Alcacer is decent too in that role. But I want to use Negredo as a Targetman and Paco as a Poacher or Advanced forward. But when Im sitting Deep for example and defending in my own half, I want my forwards to be back there.

I dont know if this is a game issue or tactical settings issue, would love some input on this

[HUNT3R]

So you want your strikers to press opponents M-strata (central midfield) players?

[Blarry]

Why don't you want to resort to individual marking? It's usually an effective way to harass opposing key players, it frees your central midfielders to narrow up in front of your defense, leaves them with lots of space and only the central defenders to beat in case of a break and it forces opposition possession to their central defs, who are mostly incompetent when it comes to constructing moves.

You can always go strikerless in a 4-2-4-0, but that'd open up a whole new bunch of problems.

[Amunt]

So you want your strikers to press opponents M-strata (central midfield) players?

That depends on how much of a threat that central midfielder is. But usually, no. What I want is for my forwards to come back behind the ball to overwhelm the middle and force the opponent to play by the wings and thats when I start pressuring and being more aggressive. The key is im staying narrow to have a lot of players around the opponent with the ball in the middle.

I use opponent instructions a lot and it varies from match to match how I play, but I want to use the same philosophy, everyone needs to defend. And then hit the opponent fast on the counter.

Im just saying why does the strikers just stand upfront? Do I really need to move them down to a central midfielder or tight mark the opponent to make them come home and defend like this? Can anyone tell me if I can get my forwards to simply come back and defend in my own half without having to use them as midfielders? Also let say a short striker is marking a tall CM, that would be complete suicide on corners as that applies on that aswell I Think?

Look at this for an example http://theinsidechannel.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/atletico-defending-midfield.png

[Kcinnay]

I just posted this in the top three match engine wishlist thread:

2) Implement 'team pressing' apart from the individual pressing. At the moment, the closing down instructions for the team determine the closing down for the players. That isn't necessary. At the moment, it's impossible to press aggressively on your own half, to create a medium or a low block. You can only create a medium or low block by lowering the d-line, or by standing off, which isolates the striker(s) from the rest of the team, as lowering the d-line makes your team longer, less compact, while it should be possible to make the strikers a part of the 'low block'. The 'team closing down' should specify at what point in the field your team starts actively trying to recover the ball. If you specify that pressing should only start in your own half (low block), then you specify that that is the place where your 'highest player' should be positioned, your striker(s). It'd make it possible to position your strikers lower, without having the need of playing them out of position in an 'ugly' formation without strikers or attacking midfielders. Atletic Madrid often defends as something that in FM'd be called as a 4-4-2-0-0, with the strikers in a position where in other teams the CM's would be, but that doesn't make Martinez or Torres or made Costa or Mandzukic CM's. I hope I made myself clear.

[HUNT3R]

Look at this for an example http://theinsidechannel.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/atletico-defending-midfield.png

Do you see Atletico do this against anyone else except Barcelona?

[Amunt]

Do you see Atletico do this against anyone else except Barcelona?

Maybe not defending that Deep against weaker teams unless holding on to a 0-1 lead away, but their forwards does Always drop back behind the ball like this. That was the problem with players like Mandzukic, he did not like this style of play. Against Valencia, they Always defend in their own half and counter us. Of course they can press higher aswell, Atletico doesnt create much attacks but when they do get the ball up far up on the opponents half, they tend to activate a very aggressive style and pressure to try to score. The minute after they can be back defending in their own half.

[HUNT3R]

Maybe not defending that Deep against weaker teams unless holding on to a 0-1 lead away, but their forwards does Always drop back behind the ball like this.

That was the problem with players like Mandzukic, he did not like this style of play. Against Valencia, they Always defend in their own half and counter us.

So from what you've said, you're going to have to use a very defensive mentality or you need to drop your strikers to AM at least.

[Kcinnay]

So from what you've said, you're going to have to use a very defensive mentality or you need to drop your strikers to AM at least.

But strikers aren't attacking midfielders. I agree that if you want to replicate that movement (which isn't that rare, lots of teams play with their strikers behind the ball, only not that deep), you need to use that - or some weird man marking - as a solution but the actual match engine, but it's limiting. It should be possible to get a targetman or even an advanced forward behind the ball. Dynamic stratas could be something, to make it able to position the striker roles in the AM strata or even lower.

[HUNT3R]

But strikers aren't attacking midfielders.

Exactly.

If you want them to drop back unnaturally deep (keeping in mind that the formation screen is the defensive shape) then pull them back.

[Kcinnay]

Exactly.

If you want them to drop back unnaturally deep (keeping in mind that the formation screen is the defensive shape) then pull them back.

You could have read and commented on the following sentences. I used the first sentence to decline your 'solution', not to confirm them, as I state in my post. Pulling words out of context isn't constructive.

You can't play a targetman in what FM defines as the AM-strata, but you should be able to. Calling getting strikers behind the ball 'unnaturally' is just not fair. It's unnatural in FM situations, not in real life situations. Lots of teams use tight lines, keep their strikers close to their midfielders in defensive situations.

[HUNT3R]

You could have read and commented on the following sentences. I used the first sentence to decline your 'solution', not to confirm them, as I state in my post. Pulling words out of context isn't constructive.

You can't play a targetman in what FM defines as the AM-strata, but you should be able to. Calling getting strikers behind the ball 'unnaturally' is just not fair. It's unnatural in FM situations, not in real life situations. Lots of teams use tight lines, keep their strikers close to their midfielders in defensive situations.

I did read all of it, even if I didn't quote it. There's no reason you cannot do what the OP wants, with AM players and not strikers. Your point about the target man is something for the wishlist.

[OBONGO]

Yeah but then they are not forwards anymore, which is what the op wanted, are they...

[RTHerringbone]

This is going well

Just use (as has already been suggested) specific man marking. It works, and is a very effective way of doing all sorts of things to your defensive shape in comparison to how it appears as a formation.

[HUNT3R]

Yeah but then they are not forwards anymore, which is what the op wanted, are they...

It was suggested in the OP that he didn't want to use specific man marking. The only other way is what I suggested he could do. Strikers who are asked to drop into midfield and defend, in midfield, are by FM standards - midfielders. You'll just be using a strikerless system. Nothing wrong with that. I just won a game trying a default tactic but asking natural strikers to act as AMs.

[Amunt]

I just posted this in the top three match engine wishlist thread:

That was exacly my Point. Great post. Hope SI work with this. For now I'll keep my forwards up front and pull them down when I have a lead. I got inner forwards at the flanks(Bakkali, Vela) that hopefully can create chances. I can Always Dream for Marco Reus if I ask my board.

[Amunt]

So, has this been implemented in the game yet or do I still need to man mark central midfielders with my forwards?

[Dr. Hook]

So, has this been implemented in the game yet or do I still need to man mark central midfielders with my forwards?

No, they are not going to drop into your central midfield as a matter of regular play. One thing you can try outside of man marking specific players, if you haven't, is to try defensive forwards on support duty. They will drop fairly deep for you on defense, though maybe not quite so much as you are looking for. That is the only other option aside from the man marking.

[s1111]

Support strikers used to drop back quite deep without the ball before a patch on FM15, but now they just hang around on the halfway line with attack duty strikers, regardless of what team mentality used. There's an invisible wall about 5 yards over the halfway line they will almost never cross to challenge an opponent or collect the ball. Makes playing 442 quite hard because you end up with both strikers 30 yards from the rest of the team. When you play with two strikers you probably couldn't guess which one is on attack or on support. Should be changed back to how it was before.