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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2016 Out Now - Official Feedback Thread

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So just to clarify, the mentality's are essentially a risk gauge from 1-6 and it would theoretically be possible to employ an extremely highly risky but very defensive tactic by combining overload and then defensive player roles, TI's, PI's, etc?

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If we're theorycrafting ( and i'm not even close to being an expert) them I think it's *possible* but if you change enough TI's /PI's then it's probably not am overload tactic anyway.

Lots of people pick a base mentality them add a ton of TI's that essentially change the mentality ( ie picking counter and changing pressing/ D line etc so it's actually more like standard)

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Had Malaga push there luck with me last night in my Stoke save.

Listed Charlie Adam as i was looking to raise a bit of cash to bring Sven Bender in. Adam is worth £5.5m and i offered to clubs. Malaga came in with a bid of...absolutely nothing. And i mean nothing. £0 up front. No players offered. No money in installments. Literally £0. Is this normal? Gave me a giggle at the time :lol:.

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Had Malaga push there luck with me last night in my Stoke save.

Listed Charlie Adam as i was looking to raise a bit of cash to bring Sven Bender in. Adam is worth £5.5m and i offered to clubs. Malaga came in with a bid of...absolutely nothing. And i mean nothing. £0 up front. No players offered. No money in installments. Literally £0. Is this normal? Gave me a giggle at the time :lol:.

Sounds fine to me. If you've listed him and then offered him to clubs, why not push your luck and try to get him for nothing? They don't know the reasons behind you offering him out

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So just to clarify, the mentality's are essentially a risk gauge from 1-6 and it would theoretically be possible to employ an extremely highly risky but very defensive tactic by combining overload and then defensive player roles, TI's, PI's, etc?

If your core idea of a defensive tactic is that everybody would just sit deep and keep position and never venture forward, so as to not expose their side, to a degree. If you have somebody sitting at the top, the ball will be played to him quickly though as more aggressive mentalities = more forward passes. There will be no probing, no back and forth, the ball is move quickly high up the pitch. As argued before, to that extent the names are actually completely accurate to some extent, rather than risk if that confuses, think "attacking intent". Think I've shared this before, but this is essentially a 4-1-4-1 with mostly defend dutys on a less aggressive mentality (counter or defend, can't remember), probably coupled with a shorter passing TI, also taken out all the roles that engage into dribblings (dribblings=aggressively forward runs with the ball) such as wingers in wide positions. It's basically a play keep-ball thing to see out the dying minutes of a match, with everybody staying deep due to their (mostly defend) dutys and the ball thus being staying deep too.

If you'd do this on "overload", the ball would be eventually played to the lone forward quickly, who'd been crowded out and dispossessed easily likely as he has no support due to the dutys, and there would be none, if any of the lateral and backward passing. It would be "defensive" in that sense that players would never move forward and be caught out of position when the team drops the ball, and on overload, the ball should be dropped oftenly due to the aggressively forward passing, be it short or direct.

The thing to remember about the "tactics" is that in parts this all dates back to the FM stone ages. Up until ca. FM 2009/2010ish you'd either need to have a dozen set-ups ready to save and load to change and chop your styles and attacking intend during a match, or a ton of time available as making a side more cautious/more gung-ho in a half-way coherent way meant adjusting a dozen sliders on a player each with each change in tactics. The "mentalitites/strategys" aren't exclusively about the old mentality instruction though, they took a couple of things, such as that passing options, tempo settings, etc. and combined it to have a bigger something available via a single click of the mouse. Mentalities used to be therefore called fully-fletched "strategies" until previously. I'm fairly sure even the concept authors such as wwfan didn't think that far and out of the box back then, I'm 100% certain they didn't have their generalist/specialist theorems yet fully developed, or considered that for more continental probing playing styles, the seemingly natural choice of going "control" might be a tad too forward pushing. The AI never has been that creative with the tools available to this day anyways (can't say much about 2016 due to lack of more detailed match viewing experience). What this is meant to say is that a) experiments and different individual interpretations are still supposed to be part of the deal. That b) this is still all just work in progress, one day things will likely more easily linked to encouraged playing styles, in terms of data research as well (AI manager traits), which would also benefit the AI hugely (up until now no AI team such as Bayern would consider going with anything but aggressive mentalities mostly). And that c) there can come a point where you over-obsess over smallish details, needlessly. Personally I've never dealt much in individual player instructions, and team instructions only in reasonable doses.

You could argue that if you leave every duty on "auto" where it's available, and don't tweak via TIs, the descriptions are actually still accurate to a T. For "defensive" mentality it says that players would stay behind the ball in numbers, which is actually true if auto duties are activated (by default they are), as on "defensive" mentality that means a defend duty, and defense duties all have "hold position" activated to never venture forward (vice versa for the more aggressive mentalities, and support for the middle bracket). If you would go "overload" with auto dutys, all of those players are encouraged to rush forward from their default position on the tactics screen every time, ergo "overloading". For "defensive" the text description also says that it would primarily look to score on the counter, which then also applies, as in counter situations where a break is genuinely on, the "hold position" thingie is overrided to an extent, making players advance regardless. By default without tweaks it's also not possession based per se, as defenders are supposed to clear their lines when pushed (the UI makes this visible now, though it seems to be toned down a tad from previous releases). Still not recommended going with overly many defend dutys as that practically means zero movement, unless you want to, well see the video above.

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Well, for those interested - I have been testing out the Counter Strategy theory and let me point out a few things here. First of all, I did initially see that a simple set up counter did quite well in the start of the season (surprisingly well, actually) but here's the reality that I think a lot of people are not taking into account. When you get a good string of results then the AI teams tend to change their Mentalities/Strategies against your style of play - and will punish it if you don't know how to adapt. That has been the case for several generations now, so I was surprised that some actually think the ME has become different this time around - it simply hasn't.

Counter in the long run will not compliment a team like Barcelona and there are several reasons for this. I wish people would stop going around presenting these type of insights without thoroughly looking at the whole picture here. The Counter Mentalities still do not possess enough traits in the ME to actually overpower a very defensive AI. Adjusting the Defensive Line and Closing Down statistically made things a little better - but still couldn't break through, and if it did, it was sparse at best. The dynamic game-play of determining your attacking and defending reality is still intact in this ME, there are just other issues that need to be dealt with before anyone can truly say that they know how the ME works --- every passage I have read regarding how the ME is working is more or less a guess because one thing I am pretty sure about is that we haven't seen the last version of this ME yet...

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The counter strategy isn't a theory.

Counter has worked for various people in the long run with Barcelona and various other top teams.

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The Counter Mentalities still do not possess enough traits in the ME to actually overpower a very defensive AI.

You're still not getting it. You aren't trying to overpower them in the first place. You're trying to create space and then exploiting that, without taking unnecessary risks. That is why you'd choose a less risky mentality.

If you want to try and overpower them, there are ways to do that too.

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Loving the game so far. Apart from the overpowered crosses and one-on-ones, there's not much to complain about.

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Look guys, it's up to you what you see when you are looking at ME games and the statistics in the long run, really. By overpowering, I mean that the strategy does not break down a very defensive AI based team. Now, you can get lucky from time to time, but to say that it is the way to play against that type of opponent is just untrue. You want to go out and cause more confusion then there already is in the gaming community, then go right ahead my friends. But I would strongly suggest against that advice to any gamer out there.

If any of you can post a save that shows that you can succeed with that type of game play and do so without saving the game constantly, then go right ahead - at least you will be putting your money where your mouth is...

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Is there something with one on ones? I don't think anything regarding finishing will generally be hugely tweaked, as finishing actually looks fairly spot on. The top blokes get about 50%+ of their shots on target, and the gernal conversion of roughly 1 in 3 of those is also hit. Some are above, some are beyond, which is partly tactics, partly skill, but also, as this is funny ol' dog football a big part of random chance causing things to fluctuate.

cXaxx5c.jpg

It's all a bit hidden, as are a lot of the stats the game actually offers. By inserting such columns you can flick through the conversion numbers for each team ( I did), and also check then penalty conversion rates which have come under suspicion by some and more.

If you want to try and overpower them, there are ways to do that too.

Might be the wording, but I think Loversleaper meant overpowering as then actually "dominating" possession. Could be probably linked to the pressing issues higher up the pitch which kicks in when the AI team opts do dawdle on the ball deep. Counter mentality in and on itself is absolutely no problem regarding parking the bus teams, quite the contrary, as lesser aggressive mentality will stretch play and the opponent, rather than funneling it directly into the parking bus (going attack=forward passes exclusively). The main issue most have in that is typically the dutys, as you need sufficient movement to break those busses down, which has little to do with the mentalities. An alternative plan could be indeed overloading, naturally, say even bringign on a genuinelly dominating target man and exposing the deep lines that way, but it's a bit of a game of chance.

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Look guys, it's up to you what you see when you are looking at ME games and the statistics in the long run, really. By overpowering, I mean that the strategy does not break down a very defensive AI based team. Now, you can get lucky from time to time, but to say that it is the way to play against that type of opponent is just untrue. You want to go out and cause more confusion then there already is in the gaming community, then go right ahead my friends. But I would strongly suggest against that advice to any gamer out there.

If any of you can post a save that shows that you can succeed with that type of game play and do so without saving the game constantly, then go right ahead - at least you will be putting your money where your mouth is...

If only there was a whole forum discussing tactics and how they relate to the ME....

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Might be the wording, but I think Loversleaper meant overpowering as then actually "dominating" possession.

It's not only about dominating possession - it's also your conversion ratio of chances on goal... I am surprised that people don't see that the whole 1 on 1 issue, for example, works also in conjunction with the strategy reality...

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I wish you would take your expertise to the tactics forum and educate yourself.

There is even a huge Barcelona thread for you ��

Yeah. I wasn't even going to mention that thread. Which nailed it to a tee, and not just over one version (started in 2011 iirc)

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If any of you can post a save that shows that you can succeed with that type of game play and do so without saving the game constantly, then go right ahead - at least you will be putting your money where your mouth is...

How about my current career thread (Although FM15 based the theory is the same): http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/428745-FM15-quot-I-ve-Never-Played-for-a-Draw-in-my-Life-quot

Formations have been tweaked over time but from what I remember I started with a basic 442, when I got promoted 4132 was my preferred choice and then that developed into a true wingbacks 3232. I more or less always start with standard mentality and then adjust in game using defend as the lowest and control as the highest.

Its not just FM I don't think you get its real world football and how matches develop. Sometimes teams just can't break defences down, look at Man Utd the other week against PSV, they resorted to throwing long balls into Fellaini in the second half. Tactically you could say it was a poor/wrong choice but equally it could say that PSV forced them into that.

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Sometimes teams just can't break defences down, look at Man Utd the other week against PSV, they resorted to throwing long balls into Fellaini in the second half. Tactically you could say it was a poor/wrong choice but equally it could say that PSV forced them into that.

Let's say that you do 'generally' well against middle good and the better teams in the league --- but you seem to struggle against all the teams you should be playing off the park... This is actually trying to tell you something about your strategy game play. This is where the 'overpowering' element comes into play, strategies are not cosmetic. It could happen the other way around, you do well against all the poor teams but always lose to the bigger teams --- these are realities of the FM game if you do not understand the whole RISK/REWARD aspect been thrown around the forums (because the aspect is really there).

But just because you understand the risk/reward aspect of the game - it is not going to automatically win the game. If you chose strategies/settings that reward your game play - then you should see that, in the long run, the reward is greater than the risks and you should be doing better than worse...

Just wanted to add: that it is always possible to mis-judge the situation, pitch condition, pitch size, weather, opposition's strengths and other things so you make the wrong decision which can cost you the game --- it's all about learning because this game is not all about one match...

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You're still not getting it. You aren't trying to overpower them in the first place. You're trying to create space and then exploiting that, without taking unnecessary risks. That is why you'd choose a less risky mentality.

If you want to try and overpower them, there are ways to do that too.

:applause:

I have 2 tactics set up, one of which I tweak during a game if I want more width, mentality wise can vary from game to game and even change 3-4 times during a game, I watch what's happening and change things accordingly. Basically there is no right or wrong way to play, you play to get results against different teams and scenarios, too many people get all caught up with mentality when they don't realise it's only a single part of the whole picture. I've seen my 4-3-3 narrow formation finishing up 4-1-4-1 or even 3-5-2 at the end of a game and the mentality being total opposite from what I started the game just to get a win.

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Let's say that you do 'generally' well against middle good and the better teams in the league --- but you seem to struggle against all the teams you should be playing off the park... This is actually trying to tell you something about your strategy game play. This is where the 'overpowering' element comes into play, strategies are not cosmetic. It could happen the other way around, you do well against all the poor teams but always lose to the bigger teams --- these are realities of the FM game if you do not understand the whole RISK/REWARD aspect been thrown around the forums (because the aspect is really there).

But just because you understand the risk/reward aspect of the game - it is not going to automatically win the game. If you chose strategies/settings that reward your game play - then you should see that, in the long run, the reward is greater than the risks and you should be doing better than worse...

Just wanted to add: that it is always possible to mis-judge the situation, pitch condition, pitch size, weather, opposition's strengths and other things so you make the wrong decision which can cost you the game --- it's all about learning because this game is not all about one match...

If you are struggling against teams that play in a certain manner whether that be because of their shape, style or any other particular feature of their play its certainly a sign that your tactics aren't suited to that situation.

Part of the problem is that many users seem to think they should be able to dictate play at all times when in fact often in the real world its the team without the ball that dictates the pattern of play while the team with the ball aim to adjust by using the space that is left by the without the ball defending team. If you are getting pressed the space is behind, if not its in front, if the defence is narrow the space is wide and if they have a spread formation its usually central. Its up to the attacking team to work out where the space is and use it to their advantage but some users fail to grasp why its up to them to do that.

In terms of mentality I don't even like TMS describing it as a risk/reward system as football tactics just aren't that simple and FM's team mentality encompasses far more than just risk/reward. Your job as a manager is to identify which tactics will work in a given match both at the start & during as the situation on the field changes. Within FM that starts with the team mentality along with lots of others ME inputs. Unfortunately FM tactics have limitations but you should be choosing the mentality that you think will give your team the best chance of winning during the match you are playing and then adjusting it with TIs along with player roles & duties.

You do need to know what type of default play each mentality setting will give you on the field but you don't need to know every single detail. I couldn't tell you what the default settings are for any mentality setting but from watching my games I have a general overall impression of how a team plays with each mentality.

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You're still not getting it. You aren't trying to overpower them in the first place. You're trying to create space and then exploiting that, without taking unnecessary risks. That is why you'd choose a less risky mentality.

If you want to try and overpower them, there are ways to do that too.

You see, this is where you and I will have totally different out looks on how the AI plays. When the AI plays very defensively, they won't be giving up space. They will sit back (at least 5 players with 'hold position'), waste time heavily and pass the ball freely around the back because mentality-wise your team is not aggressive enough and they will eventually create something out of nothing...

I have seen people reporting this time and time again (1 shot 1 goal type threads) and experimented with these types of scenarios long enough to be able to see the pattern and why others are experiencing these type of situations...

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You see, this is where you and I will have totally different out looks on how the AI plays. When the AI plays very defensively, they won't be giving up space. They will sit back (at least 5 players with 'hold position'), waste time heavily and pass the ball freely around the back because mentality-wise your team is not aggressive enough and they will eventually create something out of nothing...

I have seen people reporting this time and time again (1 shot 1 goal type threads) and experimented with these types of scenarios long enough to be able to see the pattern and why others are experiencing these type of situations...

You're a year late with the 1 shot 1 goal games. The AI is better this year.

I know how the AI works. I know how they set up in FM15 and in FM16. If you don't want Counter, then use Standard. Use specific man-marking. Do something. The answer for closing down issues isn't to go to Attacking/Overload. Your entire gameplan then changes, because players will then take risks in everything they do. Tackles, Dribbles, Passes, Shots etc.

By overpowering, I mean that the strategy does not break down a very defensive AI based team. Now, you can get lucky from time to time, but to say that it is the way to play against that type of opponent is just untrue.

Please. I beg you. Go tell Cleon that. I'll get the popcorn ready while he posts the links of the articles he's already written that proves this wrong.

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You see, this is where you and I will have totally different out looks on how the AI plays. When the AI plays very defensively, they won't be giving up space. They will sit back (at least 5 players with 'hold position'), waste time heavily and pass the ball freely around the back because mentality-wise your team is not aggressive enough and they will eventually create something out of nothing...

I have seen people reporting this time and time again (1 shot 1 goal type threads) and experimented with these types of scenarios long enough to be able to see the pattern and why others are experiencing these type of situations...

When teams do that the space is in front of the defence.

IRL what you then see is teams keep possession in front of the opposition defence and move it from side to side trying to create space between the defenders. Alternatively what they do is try to pull the defence forward to the halfway line to leave space behind the defence.

This is what your aim should be in FM and is best achieved with a lower mentality.

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Look guys, it's up to you what you see when you are looking at ME games and the statistics in the long run, really. By overpowering, I mean that the strategy does not break down a very defensive AI based team. Now, you can get lucky from time to time, but to say that it is the way to play against that type of opponent is just untrue. You want to go out and cause more confusion then there already is in the gaming community, then go right ahead my friends. But I would strongly suggest against that advice to any gamer out there.

If any of you can post a save that shows that you can succeed with that type of game play and do so without saving the game constantly, then go right ahead - at least you will be putting your money where your mouth is...

By the way, no one (at least, I'm not) is saying you can ONLY break down defensive teams with a Defend/Counter mentality. I'm not doing that right now. I'm using Standard in every game. If I see players are too cautious, I'll go to Control, but change a role and add a TI or 2 to add more stability to my now more attacking tactic.

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I know how the AI works. I know how they set up in FM15 and in FM16. If you don't want Counter, then use Standard. Use specific man-marking. Do something. The answer for closing down issues isn't to go to Attacking/Overload. Your entire gameplan then changes, because players will then take risks in everything they do. Tackles, Dribbles, Passes, Shots ect.

You know how the AI works and you are telling the community that to play against a very cautious/safe AI tactic that you have to play one yourself? The risk part you talk about can also open the 'reward' aspect. Apparently that aspect hasn't dawned on you yet...

EDIT: just noticed your last post --- so you are changing something when the tactics seem to come up short... Okay, I get your point now, let's leave this conversation...

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You know how the AI works and you are telling the community that to play against a very cautious/safe AI tactic that you have to play one yourself? The risk part you talk about also opens the 'reward' aspect. Apparently that aspect hasn't dawned on you yet...

I'm not saying that. I'm saying this:

More attacking mentality = more risks taken

Less attacking mentality = less risks taken

Barcelona do not take low percentage risks = Defend/Counter.

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You know how the AI works and you are telling the community that to play against a very cautious/safe AI tactic that you have to play one yourself? The risk part you talk about also opens the 'reward' aspect. Apparently that aspect hasn't dawned on you yet...

You are still not getting it and now TMS has you focussed on risk/reward :(

The way you break down a defensive team is by moving the defence and creating gaps. You need to select appropriate tactical choices for that to happen and one of the best ways is to take a patient overall approach (Mentality) and then add in some TIs/roles/duties to create more incisiveness in the areas you need it.

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You are still not getting it and now TMS has you focussed on risk/reward :(

The way you break down a defensive team is by moving the defence and creating gaps. You need to select appropriate tactical choices for that to happen and one of the best ways is to take a patient overall approach (Mentality) and then add in some TIs/roles/duties to create more incisiveness in the areas you need it.

I am not getting it, that to break down a defensive team you should take a patient mentality as well? What I am not getting is the horrible advice you are giving the community...

Look guys, prove it or let's just leave it...

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I am not getting it, that to break down a defensive team you should take a patient mentality as well? What I am not getting is the horrible advice you are giving the community...

Look guys, prove it or let's just leave it...

There's more than one way to do it.

Here's your proof. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/444680-The-Art-of-Counter-Attacking?p=10604334&viewfull=1#post10604334

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Okay, I will check out this and give an honest analysis. It would be cool if we could get svenc on board as well as I know that he has a very sharp eye for the patterns in the ME as well.

I am big enough person to be able to admit when I am wrong, but every test I have made in regards to what you are saying does not fit the patterns in the ME over a longer periode of time.

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I'm not saying that. I'm saying this:

More attacking mentality = more risks taken

Less attacking mentality = less risks taken

Barcelona do not take low percentage risks = Defend/Counter.

I get what you're saying, though imho Barcelona's tactic does take its share of risks. Their style of pressing is quite risky, players' level of fitness and specific training (often starting from youth set-up) make it work. Also, high tempo, accurate short passing with lightning speed one-twos just outside the box IS a risk; individual skills and again specific team training make all of this happen. So let's say they're 'calculated risks', but imho they are risks that not many other teams could afford to take.

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I get what you're saying, though imho Barcelona's tactic does take its share of risks. Their style of pressing is quite risky, players' level of fitness and specific training (often starting from youth set-up) make it work. Also, high tempo, accurate short passing with lightning speed one-twos just outside the box IS a risk; individual skills and again specific team training make all of this happen. So let's say they're 'calculated risks', but imho they are risks that not many other teams could afford to take.

On the pressing, yes, I've already conceded that. Ideally, you'd have an Attacking/Aggressive mentality (or the 5 second rule) for the defending part and Defend/Counter for everything else.

If you watch Barcelona, you'll see they don't take risks. Whatever they do, it is calculated. Whether they pass short or long, high or low tempo ----- It is low-risk. That goes for runs forward, shots, crosses etc.

Low risk = more defensive mentality.

By the way, we can take it here, please: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/275877-The-Barcelona-Style-My-Interpretation/page7

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I am not getting it, that to break down a defensive team you should take a patient mentality as well? What I am not getting is the horrible advice you are giving the community...

Look guys, prove it or let's just leave it...

Horrible advice :D

I really don't know how you expect us to prove it to you tbh as whatever I or anyone else does you dismiss it.

I don't claim to be any sort of expert and certainly not in the same category as the likes of Cleon/wwfan etc but I've coached youth teams IRL, always had an interest in football & tactics for as long as I can remember and manage to transfer my ideas into workable FM tactics. They aren't as perfect as I would like and I lack the ability to express some of my thoughts as easily or effectively as I would IRL but overall they are a good representation.

I tend more to playing a patient possession based style with solid defence but am capable of changing to a different style if I feel its required. I've posted a lot of my careers on the forum over the years either in the careers forum or before that the LLM forum and some will still be there should you want to evaluate them. I never cheat, I never use exploits and I mostly overachieve to some degree with a large % achieved with lower mentalities.

I could upload hundreds of screenshots to try & prove the point but without context screenshots & stats are relatively meaningless.

Its also pointless continuing a discussion when you just consistently believe you are right and refuse to accept anyone elses POV.

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I can already give a prediction on what is going to happen. At the start of every season (where there is no result pattern) and especially if you are a new manager (and especially if you have a lower reputation) managing a new team - you will experience an AI that will be a little higher in their strategy thinking. They will do this because they are counting on that you won't be very sound with your strategy thinking and will try to exploit that.

Now, this will cause the AI to be a 'little more open' so that a human manager using a more cautious mentality strategy might get away with countering them in areas that they leave open. That's given - but the whole problem lies in the fact that the AI will change it's behavior towards your team depending on your result form. These are the patterns that I have been talking about. If you do not see that the AI changes it's patterns of play throughout the season (and it's kind of based on your result form) - then you are simply not paying attention.

That is why my prediction is that at one point, the AI will be so defensive/compact/sound (due to my good result form) that cautious strategies will no longer be effective enough because you are not breaking through due to the mentalities not being aggressive/risky enough. If your team is strong enough to be risky enough, then the reward element should kick in.

I am pretty sure that the strategy reality is not just cosmetic and that Attacking (in reality) just means "too risky to implement", because that would kind of render them useless which would be a very annoying reality for SI towers. If we were to believe that Counter is enough to get you through the game (even with the odd duty/setting here and there) to be able to defeat the AI - then how long do you think it will take before everyone is implementing Counter because that will give you the win?

If this is the reality, then SI have made the Counter Strategy to hard too handle or that the ME is very weak that the gaming world can easily defeat the AI with basically one approach...

If this were really the case, I am sure that this will not be good news, at all, for the programmers of the ME...

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Paradoxically, I use Counter (or even Defensive) to dominate possession and draw weaker teams out, and Attacking when I'm the underdog and want to roll the dice against opposition foolish enough to leave space behind.

Once I get into a position of dominance in a save (i.e., once I'm winning the league consistently), my team will play with the "Counter" mentality more or less exclusively, unless a particular match presents a quirk to deal with.

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Sitting deep in your own half and staying sturdy in defence. Then when winning the ball back and the opposition has over commit men forward, launching explosive counter attacks to take advantage of the space they’ve left behind. It really is this simple.

I have read Cleon's very well written piece on the subject and there are a few things that stand out. First of all the quote above from his thread - this is how the description is out in the real world and apparently in FM as well. This type of game play in it's description doesn't really fit into how Barcelona play their football or any other team with an attacking mind-set, for one.

Second, he describes the situation of playing against Newcastle being Sheffield U (league 1) in the cup. Now, if he were playing away from home - I would think that that would actually be a little too risky, because Counter (being more aggressive than Defensive) might press too hard against a much more superior opponent and that usually spells disaster (both in FM and the real world). But at home I think that Counter/Standard would seem around the area that you want to be in - given that match situation (that is what I would do as well).

It's not a question of 'if the Counter strategy works or not' - it's more a question of WHEN you want to attempt that type of game plan. That is why, the strategy reality has it's purpose. It gives you a wide range of options to either fight against an AI or turn the tables and have them fight you instead - the question is if you know when you can risk and when you have to play more safe in FM terms, or in more simpler terms, when you should attack or defend (or a little bit of both).

Although I am still on the Demo so I can't go too far into the future, there are still a few things you can take a look at. Do the strategies still work and can you achieve success with them? The answer is most definitely YES. Are there some irregularities within the ME? Also a yes.

I can tell you what they are in my perspective. Right now, the Closing Down settings are actually not aggressive enough in the higher end strategies and that is why you can, initially, get away with playing more cautious - like illustrated in these screen shots:

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594774570/17546FADA556FCE253DB7D8B5BBE6790DCC095CE/

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594774742/8E37F0A2D24EEC59EDC14F9F6A495DBD3DEDF14A/

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594774865/C19A122118054843534872A5A768841D43A6EBAF/

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594774995/A6A3AAB3F09E7452F42FA2A6CAF0D4FFBE7C6F20/

The thing that stands out here, is that I am tactically doing exactly what the AI will eventually do to me as soon as my result form is so great they have no other choice than to try to play as safe as possible in hopes of stopping my team. Here it's pretty clear that the AI is either playing too cautious (which would be weird as they are favorites in all these instances) or that the settings won't allow them to actually get far enough forward to establish an aggressive pressure and pin me back - that would explain my high possession stats by playing deep and defensively on my side of the opponent's front pressure.

Can you play more risky/attacking and have success?

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594775328/434021388C0B75F0C68E98A259644ACD1B7A9500/

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594775200/6388868E764E27CC024F4ED27A9F752A0FDB249F/

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594775444/81F220D4145B825F9A9E02C148F3E190853294F7/

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594775572/3FDD9967552CCA837A8B8D6FF07F4D0A23E74E99/

The thing is that, as Watford, I am still considered a weaker opposition so the AI teams are still moving forward and playing above Defensive strategy which my Control & Attack strategy is doing quite well against, as you can see. My main concern is that once you do start becoming huge favorites and the AI starts to move to Defensive & Contain strategies away from home, even the Attacking strategies have difficulties breaking them down as the Closing Down is not aggressive enough. Have I been in that situation yet? Yes, of course. Did I try Counter in those situations as described in threads? Yes of course. Did I match them up result-wise and statistically against the same results and statistics when playing Attacking strategies? Yes, of course I did. Which do yo think actually did better result-wise in the long run? You probably guessed it already...

I know that Cleon has talked about writing a thread about Attacking football, and I am pretty sure that he will run into the same problems I and others have pointed out: Passing from deep in your own half and Closing Down is causing slight problems - even though you can still achieve the results...

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You'll notice, that i've started deleting any posts referencing tactical issues that should be posted elsewhere..

Take the hint please.. i'm in the middle of a cup run with pompey and I hate to come out of it to sort this stuff out :thup:

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I'm just going to highlight something in regard to the Barcelona play on the counter argument.

In the game (FM16) it introduces counter as a mentality with this description...

"This mentality is best deployed for matches you are favourites to lose and in which your opponent is expected to put you under extended pressure."

Now if you believe as some seem to that counter is a strategy for a dominant team such as Barcelona for example, okay. But the logic is awry when compared to the description and could therefore be easily construed as misleading, certainly to a new player it maybe.

So whether right or wrong I don't understand why it's necessary to give Loversleaper something of a hard time? Either his assumptions/experience is correct or he has fallen into this mis-labelling trap.

To an onlooker, it lends itself to the outcome of this argument being unsatisfactory either way.

If Loversleaper is correct then a lot of advice been given on the forums is wrong.

Or at those who are saying the game/ME is basically fine (bugs aside) and Loversleaper is incorrect, that's fine, but at face value it would appear counter-intuitive for many as the logic/labelling, call it what you will, is unhelpful and needs amending. And if that's the case, surely it is better to campaign SI than criticise him for his view.

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You're right, it is feedback, I skimmed assuming you were carrying on the discussion like the other posts deleted, apologies.

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Jordon Ibe, 20yrs old, 35k a week wonderkid.

We win the league and he wants a new contract.

So i start negotiations. He starts out wanting 125k a week. Now THAT is a massive increase, i managed to get him down to 83k, but that imo is still way too much for a 20yr old.

Am i just to tight :) Or does it seem a bit too high?

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Too tight i'd say.. he's the new wonderkid who is almost emulating Sterling.. what were his demands like at a similar age again? and don't forget it was an opening bid.

If he's gone from 35k to 83k in one negotiation session, that's not bad going.. irl players negotiate over a season or two, well, important players anyway.

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Contracts are always like that. My favorite is when I offer some let's say X player who's on a 10k p/w wage and he wants 80k p/w at my club and I cancel the deal, next week he goes to some other club for like 20k p/w.

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It's negotiation RvN ... it's their opening bid, you have to negotiate them down, might not work the first time or the next 3 times he demands a contract, but that's what it's about. Not just giving in and accepting the big step up they want, of course you might lose the player or he might get upset, but that's exactly how contract negotiation works in real life too.. the player will always want much more than they deserve.. obviously... or should I say, the players agent will.

Try it next time.. might change the way you handle them.

I remember in FM15 having to tell Ibra to sod off all season because he thought he deserves a 100k wage hike at the age of 34.. eventually after a lot of sulking and not getting games, I got him on the same amount of his previous contract.

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Yeah, i always try to negotiate well on contracts.

Just gave Skrtel a new one, he was on 70k a week, 25k app fee, 30k goal, 30k clean sheet. His new one is 80k a week, 14.5k app, 18.25k clean sheet and no goal bonus. I quite often am happy to give them a higher weekly wage if i can lower their bonuses a lot :)

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Yeah, i always try to negotiate well on contracts.

Just gave Skrtel a new one, he was on 70k a week, 25k app fee, 30k goal, 30k clean sheet. His new one is 80k a week, 14.5k app, 18.25k clean sheet and no goal bonus. I quite often am happy to give them a higher weekly wage if i can lower their bonuses a lot :)

I tend to play lower leagues so bonuses are killer.. I almost never let the agents fee or signing bonuses be anywhere near what they ask for (they actually don't mind, it's almost never a deal breaker), and I never let them have any percentage bonuses like sell on fee's or promotion wage % increases... they kill you.

Sometimes I just think people want a single instant button to get things done in this game... work on it people .. play the long game :D

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I generally try to lower the basic and bump the bonuses, if they are getting the bonuses it usually means they're playing well.

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Or at those who are saying the game/ME is basically fine (bugs aside) and Loversleaper is incorrect, that's fine, but at face value it would appear counter-intuitive for many as the logic/labelling, call it what you will, is unhelpful and needs amending. And if that's the case, surely it is better to campaign SI than criticise him for his view.

For me the labelling is certainly counter-intuitive and has been for a number of years. I've mentioned it already in this discussion as well as several others over the last few years, other users have also made at least passing reference to to the labelling as well.

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For me the labelling is certainly counter-intuitive and has been for a number of years. I've mentioned it already in this discussion as well as several others over the last few years, other users have also made at least passing reference to to the labelling as well.

What do you and others find counter-intuitive?

Please explain

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So my young defender just played 90 minutes for Austria U21s and scored in an 8-0 win, despite still having 3-4 months remaining on his current injury, a broken leg.

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