treble_yell_:-) Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Look guys, it's up to you what you see when you are looking at ME games and the statistics in the long run, really. By overpowering, I mean that the strategy does not break down a very defensive AI based team. Now, you can get lucky from time to time, but to say that it is the way to play against that type of opponent is just untrue. You want to go out and cause more confusion then there already is in the gaming community, then go right ahead my friends. But I would strongly suggest against that advice to any gamer out there.If any of you can post a save that shows that you can succeed with that type of game play and do so without saving the game constantly, then go right ahead - at least you will be putting your money where your mouth is... If only there was a whole forum discussing tactics and how they relate to the ME.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loversleaper Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Might be the wording, but I think Loversleaper meant overpowering as then actually "dominating" possession. It's not only about dominating possession - it's also your conversion ratio of chances on goal... I am surprised that people don't see that the whole 1 on 1 issue, for example, works also in conjunction with the strategy reality... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I wish you would take your expertise to the tactics forum and educate yourself.There is even a huge Barcelona thread for you �� Yeah. I wasn't even going to mention that thread. Which nailed it to a tee, and not just over one version (started in 2011 iirc) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 If any of you can post a save that shows that you can succeed with that type of game play and do so without saving the game constantly, then go right ahead - at least you will be putting your money where your mouth is... How about my current career thread (Although FM15 based the theory is the same): http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/428745-FM15-quot-I-ve-Never-Played-for-a-Draw-in-my-Life-quot Formations have been tweaked over time but from what I remember I started with a basic 442, when I got promoted 4132 was my preferred choice and then that developed into a true wingbacks 3232. I more or less always start with standard mentality and then adjust in game using defend as the lowest and control as the highest. Its not just FM I don't think you get its real world football and how matches develop. Sometimes teams just can't break defences down, look at Man Utd the other week against PSV, they resorted to throwing long balls into Fellaini in the second half. Tactically you could say it was a poor/wrong choice but equally it could say that PSV forced them into that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loversleaper Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Sometimes teams just can't break defences down, look at Man Utd the other week against PSV, they resorted to throwing long balls into Fellaini in the second half. Tactically you could say it was a poor/wrong choice but equally it could say that PSV forced them into that. Let's say that you do 'generally' well against middle good and the better teams in the league --- but you seem to struggle against all the teams you should be playing off the park... This is actually trying to tell you something about your strategy game play. This is where the 'overpowering' element comes into play, strategies are not cosmetic. It could happen the other way around, you do well against all the poor teams but always lose to the bigger teams --- these are realities of the FM game if you do not understand the whole RISK/REWARD aspect been thrown around the forums (because the aspect is really there). But just because you understand the risk/reward aspect of the game - it is not going to automatically win the game. If you chose strategies/settings that reward your game play - then you should see that, in the long run, the reward is greater than the risks and you should be doing better than worse... Just wanted to add: that it is always possible to mis-judge the situation, pitch condition, pitch size, weather, opposition's strengths and other things so you make the wrong decision which can cost you the game --- it's all about learning because this game is not all about one match... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc1 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You're still not getting it. You aren't trying to overpower them in the first place. You're trying to create space and then exploiting that, without taking unnecessary risks. That is why you'd choose a less risky mentality.If you want to try and overpower them, there are ways to do that too. I have 2 tactics set up, one of which I tweak during a game if I want more width, mentality wise can vary from game to game and even change 3-4 times during a game, I watch what's happening and change things accordingly. Basically there is no right or wrong way to play, you play to get results against different teams and scenarios, too many people get all caught up with mentality when they don't realise it's only a single part of the whole picture. I've seen my 4-3-3 narrow formation finishing up 4-1-4-1 or even 3-5-2 at the end of a game and the mentality being total opposite from what I started the game just to get a win. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Let's say that you do 'generally' well against middle good and the better teams in the league --- but you seem to struggle against all the teams you should be playing off the park... This is actually trying to tell you something about your strategy game play. This is where the 'overpowering' element comes into play, strategies are not cosmetic. It could happen the other way around, you do well against all the poor teams but always lose to the bigger teams --- these are realities of the FM game if you do not understand the whole RISK/REWARD aspect been thrown around the forums (because the aspect is really there). But just because you understand the risk/reward aspect of the game - it is not going to automatically win the game. If you chose strategies/settings that reward your game play - then you should see that, in the long run, the reward is greater than the risks and you should be doing better than worse... Just wanted to add: that it is always possible to mis-judge the situation, pitch condition, pitch size, weather, opposition's strengths and other things so you make the wrong decision which can cost you the game --- it's all about learning because this game is not all about one match... If you are struggling against teams that play in a certain manner whether that be because of their shape, style or any other particular feature of their play its certainly a sign that your tactics aren't suited to that situation. Part of the problem is that many users seem to think they should be able to dictate play at all times when in fact often in the real world its the team without the ball that dictates the pattern of play while the team with the ball aim to adjust by using the space that is left by the without the ball defending team. If you are getting pressed the space is behind, if not its in front, if the defence is narrow the space is wide and if they have a spread formation its usually central. Its up to the attacking team to work out where the space is and use it to their advantage but some users fail to grasp why its up to them to do that. In terms of mentality I don't even like TMS describing it as a risk/reward system as football tactics just aren't that simple and FM's team mentality encompasses far more than just risk/reward. Your job as a manager is to identify which tactics will work in a given match both at the start & during as the situation on the field changes. Within FM that starts with the team mentality along with lots of others ME inputs. Unfortunately FM tactics have limitations but you should be choosing the mentality that you think will give your team the best chance of winning during the match you are playing and then adjusting it with TIs along with player roles & duties. You do need to know what type of default play each mentality setting will give you on the field but you don't need to know every single detail. I couldn't tell you what the default settings are for any mentality setting but from watching my games I have a general overall impression of how a team plays with each mentality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loversleaper Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You're still not getting it. You aren't trying to overpower them in the first place. You're trying to create space and then exploiting that, without taking unnecessary risks. That is why you'd choose a less risky mentality.If you want to try and overpower them, there are ways to do that too. You see, this is where you and I will have totally different out looks on how the AI plays. When the AI plays very defensively, they won't be giving up space. They will sit back (at least 5 players with 'hold position'), waste time heavily and pass the ball freely around the back because mentality-wise your team is not aggressive enough and they will eventually create something out of nothing... I have seen people reporting this time and time again (1 shot 1 goal type threads) and experimented with these types of scenarios long enough to be able to see the pattern and why others are experiencing these type of situations... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You see, this is where you and I will have totally different out looks on how the AI plays. When the AI plays very defensively, they won't be giving up space. They will sit back (at least 5 players with 'hold position'), waste time heavily and pass the ball freely around the back because mentality-wise your team is not aggressive enough and they will eventually create something out of nothing...I have seen people reporting this time and time again (1 shot 1 goal type threads) and experimented with these types of scenarios long enough to be able to see the pattern and why others are experiencing these type of situations... You're a year late with the 1 shot 1 goal games. The AI is better this year. I know how the AI works. I know how they set up in FM15 and in FM16. If you don't want Counter, then use Standard. Use specific man-marking. Do something. The answer for closing down issues isn't to go to Attacking/Overload. Your entire gameplan then changes, because players will then take risks in everything they do. Tackles, Dribbles, Passes, Shots etc. By overpowering, I mean that the strategy does not break down a very defensive AI based team. Now, you can get lucky from time to time, but to say that it is the way to play against that type of opponent is just untrue. Please. I beg you. Go tell Cleon that. I'll get the popcorn ready while he posts the links of the articles he's already written that proves this wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You see, this is where you and I will have totally different out looks on how the AI plays. When the AI plays very defensively, they won't be giving up space. They will sit back (at least 5 players with 'hold position'), waste time heavily and pass the ball freely around the back because mentality-wise your team is not aggressive enough and they will eventually create something out of nothing...I have seen people reporting this time and time again (1 shot 1 goal type threads) and experimented with these types of scenarios long enough to be able to see the pattern and why others are experiencing these type of situations... When teams do that the space is in front of the defence. IRL what you then see is teams keep possession in front of the opposition defence and move it from side to side trying to create space between the defenders. Alternatively what they do is try to pull the defence forward to the halfway line to leave space behind the defence. This is what your aim should be in FM and is best achieved with a lower mentality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Look guys, it's up to you what you see when you are looking at ME games and the statistics in the long run, really. By overpowering, I mean that the strategy does not break down a very defensive AI based team. Now, you can get lucky from time to time, but to say that it is the way to play against that type of opponent is just untrue. You want to go out and cause more confusion then there already is in the gaming community, then go right ahead my friends. But I would strongly suggest against that advice to any gamer out there.If any of you can post a save that shows that you can succeed with that type of game play and do so without saving the game constantly, then go right ahead - at least you will be putting your money where your mouth is... By the way, no one (at least, I'm not) is saying you can ONLY break down defensive teams with a Defend/Counter mentality. I'm not doing that right now. I'm using Standard in every game. If I see players are too cautious, I'll go to Control, but change a role and add a TI or 2 to add more stability to my now more attacking tactic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loversleaper Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I know how the AI works. I know how they set up in FM15 and in FM16. If you don't want Counter, then use Standard. Use specific man-marking. Do something. The answer for closing down issues isn't to go to Attacking/Overload. Your entire gameplan then changes, because players will then take risks in everything they do. Tackles, Dribbles, Passes, Shots ect. You know how the AI works and you are telling the community that to play against a very cautious/safe AI tactic that you have to play one yourself? The risk part you talk about can also open the 'reward' aspect. Apparently that aspect hasn't dawned on you yet... EDIT: just noticed your last post --- so you are changing something when the tactics seem to come up short... Okay, I get your point now, let's leave this conversation... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You know how the AI works and you are telling the community that to play against a very cautious/safe AI tactic that you have to play one yourself? The risk part you talk about also opens the 'reward' aspect. Apparently that aspect hasn't dawned on you yet... I'm not saying that. I'm saying this: More attacking mentality = more risks taken Less attacking mentality = less risks taken Barcelona do not take low percentage risks = Defend/Counter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You know how the AI works and you are telling the community that to play against a very cautious/safe AI tactic that you have to play one yourself? The risk part you talk about also opens the 'reward' aspect. Apparently that aspect hasn't dawned on you yet... You are still not getting it and now TMS has you focussed on risk/reward The way you break down a defensive team is by moving the defence and creating gaps. You need to select appropriate tactical choices for that to happen and one of the best ways is to take a patient overall approach (Mentality) and then add in some TIs/roles/duties to create more incisiveness in the areas you need it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loversleaper Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You are still not getting it and now TMS has you focussed on risk/reward The way you break down a defensive team is by moving the defence and creating gaps. You need to select appropriate tactical choices for that to happen and one of the best ways is to take a patient overall approach (Mentality) and then add in some TIs/roles/duties to create more incisiveness in the areas you need it. I am not getting it, that to break down a defensive team you should take a patient mentality as well? What I am not getting is the horrible advice you are giving the community... Look guys, prove it or let's just leave it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I am not getting it, that to break down a defensive team you should take a patient mentality as well? What I am not getting is the horrible advice you are giving the community...Look guys, prove it or let's just leave it... There's more than one way to do it. Here's your proof. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/444680-The-Art-of-Counter-Attacking?p=10604334&viewfull=1#post10604334 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loversleaper Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/444680-The-Art-of-Counter-Attacking?p=10604334&viewfull=1#post10604334 Okay, I will check out this and give an honest analysis. It would be cool if we could get svenc on board as well as I know that he has a very sharp eye for the patterns in the ME as well. I am big enough person to be able to admit when I am wrong, but every test I have made in regards to what you are saying does not fit the patterns in the ME over a longer periode of time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandersson Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I'm not saying that. I'm saying this:More attacking mentality = more risks taken Less attacking mentality = less risks taken Barcelona do not take low percentage risks = Defend/Counter. I get what you're saying, though imho Barcelona's tactic does take its share of risks. Their style of pressing is quite risky, players' level of fitness and specific training (often starting from youth set-up) make it work. Also, high tempo, accurate short passing with lightning speed one-twos just outside the box IS a risk; individual skills and again specific team training make all of this happen. So let's say they're 'calculated risks', but imho they are risks that not many other teams could afford to take. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I get what you're saying, though imho Barcelona's tactic does take its share of risks. Their style of pressing is quite risky, players' level of fitness and specific training (often starting from youth set-up) make it work. Also, high tempo, accurate short passing with lightning speed one-twos just outside the box IS a risk; individual skills and again specific team training make all of this happen. So let's say they're 'calculated risks', but imho they are risks that not many other teams could afford to take. On the pressing, yes, I've already conceded that. Ideally, you'd have an Attacking/Aggressive mentality (or the 5 second rule) for the defending part and Defend/Counter for everything else. If you watch Barcelona, you'll see they don't take risks. Whatever they do, it is calculated. Whether they pass short or long, high or low tempo ----- It is low-risk. That goes for runs forward, shots, crosses etc. Low risk = more defensive mentality. By the way, we can take it here, please: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/275877-The-Barcelona-Style-My-Interpretation/page7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I am not getting it, that to break down a defensive team you should take a patient mentality as well? What I am not getting is the horrible advice you are giving the community...Look guys, prove it or let's just leave it... Horrible advice I really don't know how you expect us to prove it to you tbh as whatever I or anyone else does you dismiss it. I don't claim to be any sort of expert and certainly not in the same category as the likes of Cleon/wwfan etc but I've coached youth teams IRL, always had an interest in football & tactics for as long as I can remember and manage to transfer my ideas into workable FM tactics. They aren't as perfect as I would like and I lack the ability to express some of my thoughts as easily or effectively as I would IRL but overall they are a good representation. I tend more to playing a patient possession based style with solid defence but am capable of changing to a different style if I feel its required. I've posted a lot of my careers on the forum over the years either in the careers forum or before that the LLM forum and some will still be there should you want to evaluate them. I never cheat, I never use exploits and I mostly overachieve to some degree with a large % achieved with lower mentalities. I could upload hundreds of screenshots to try & prove the point but without context screenshots & stats are relatively meaningless. Its also pointless continuing a discussion when you just consistently believe you are right and refuse to accept anyone elses POV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loversleaper Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I can already give a prediction on what is going to happen. At the start of every season (where there is no result pattern) and especially if you are a new manager (and especially if you have a lower reputation) managing a new team - you will experience an AI that will be a little higher in their strategy thinking. They will do this because they are counting on that you won't be very sound with your strategy thinking and will try to exploit that. Now, this will cause the AI to be a 'little more open' so that a human manager using a more cautious mentality strategy might get away with countering them in areas that they leave open. That's given - but the whole problem lies in the fact that the AI will change it's behavior towards your team depending on your result form. These are the patterns that I have been talking about. If you do not see that the AI changes it's patterns of play throughout the season (and it's kind of based on your result form) - then you are simply not paying attention. That is why my prediction is that at one point, the AI will be so defensive/compact/sound (due to my good result form) that cautious strategies will no longer be effective enough because you are not breaking through due to the mentalities not being aggressive/risky enough. If your team is strong enough to be risky enough, then the reward element should kick in. I am pretty sure that the strategy reality is not just cosmetic and that Attacking (in reality) just means "too risky to implement", because that would kind of render them useless which would be a very annoying reality for SI towers. If we were to believe that Counter is enough to get you through the game (even with the odd duty/setting here and there) to be able to defeat the AI - then how long do you think it will take before everyone is implementing Counter because that will give you the win? If this is the reality, then SI have made the Counter Strategy to hard too handle or that the ME is very weak that the gaming world can easily defeat the AI with basically one approach... If this were really the case, I am sure that this will not be good news, at all, for the programmers of the ME... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake Appeal Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Paradoxically, I use Counter (or even Defensive) to dominate possession and draw weaker teams out, and Attacking when I'm the underdog and want to roll the dice against opposition foolish enough to leave space behind. Once I get into a position of dominance in a save (i.e., once I'm winning the league consistently), my team will play with the "Counter" mentality more or less exclusively, unless a particular match presents a quirk to deal with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneRomney Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loversleaper Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Sitting deep in your own half and staying sturdy in defence. Then when winning the ball back and the opposition has over commit men forward, launching explosive counter attacks to take advantage of the space they’ve left behind. It really is this simple. I have read Cleon's very well written piece on the subject and there are a few things that stand out. First of all the quote above from his thread - this is how the description is out in the real world and apparently in FM as well. This type of game play in it's description doesn't really fit into how Barcelona play their football or any other team with an attacking mind-set, for one. Second, he describes the situation of playing against Newcastle being Sheffield U (league 1) in the cup. Now, if he were playing away from home - I would think that that would actually be a little too risky, because Counter (being more aggressive than Defensive) might press too hard against a much more superior opponent and that usually spells disaster (both in FM and the real world). But at home I think that Counter/Standard would seem around the area that you want to be in - given that match situation (that is what I would do as well). It's not a question of 'if the Counter strategy works or not' - it's more a question of WHEN you want to attempt that type of game plan. That is why, the strategy reality has it's purpose. It gives you a wide range of options to either fight against an AI or turn the tables and have them fight you instead - the question is if you know when you can risk and when you have to play more safe in FM terms, or in more simpler terms, when you should attack or defend (or a little bit of both). Although I am still on the Demo so I can't go too far into the future, there are still a few things you can take a look at. Do the strategies still work and can you achieve success with them? The answer is most definitely YES. Are there some irregularities within the ME? Also a yes. I can tell you what they are in my perspective. Right now, the Closing Down settings are actually not aggressive enough in the higher end strategies and that is why you can, initially, get away with playing more cautious - like illustrated in these screen shots: http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594774570/17546FADA556FCE253DB7D8B5BBE6790DCC095CE/ http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594774742/8E37F0A2D24EEC59EDC14F9F6A495DBD3DEDF14A/ http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594774865/C19A122118054843534872A5A768841D43A6EBAF/ http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594774995/A6A3AAB3F09E7452F42FA2A6CAF0D4FFBE7C6F20/ The thing that stands out here, is that I am tactically doing exactly what the AI will eventually do to me as soon as my result form is so great they have no other choice than to try to play as safe as possible in hopes of stopping my team. Here it's pretty clear that the AI is either playing too cautious (which would be weird as they are favorites in all these instances) or that the settings won't allow them to actually get far enough forward to establish an aggressive pressure and pin me back - that would explain my high possession stats by playing deep and defensively on my side of the opponent's front pressure. Can you play more risky/attacking and have success? http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594775328/434021388C0B75F0C68E98A259644ACD1B7A9500/ http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594775200/6388868E764E27CC024F4ED27A9F752A0FDB249F/ http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594775444/81F220D4145B825F9A9E02C148F3E190853294F7/ http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/577947832594775572/3FDD9967552CCA837A8B8D6FF07F4D0A23E74E99/ The thing is that, as Watford, I am still considered a weaker opposition so the AI teams are still moving forward and playing above Defensive strategy which my Control & Attack strategy is doing quite well against, as you can see. My main concern is that once you do start becoming huge favorites and the AI starts to move to Defensive & Contain strategies away from home, even the Attacking strategies have difficulties breaking them down as the Closing Down is not aggressive enough. Have I been in that situation yet? Yes, of course. Did I try Counter in those situations as described in threads? Yes of course. Did I match them up result-wise and statistically against the same results and statistics when playing Attacking strategies? Yes, of course I did. Which do yo think actually did better result-wise in the long run? You probably guessed it already... I know that Cleon has talked about writing a thread about Attacking football, and I am pretty sure that he will run into the same problems I and others have pointed out: Passing from deep in your own half and Closing Down is causing slight problems - even though you can still achieve the results... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshace Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You've been invited to post where this discussion should be.. please use it.. this isn't the place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshace Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You'll notice, that i've started deleting any posts referencing tactical issues that should be posted elsewhere.. Take the hint please.. i'm in the middle of a cup run with pompey and I hate to come out of it to sort this stuff out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Rob Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I'm just going to highlight something in regard to the Barcelona play on the counter argument. In the game (FM16) it introduces counter as a mentality with this description... "This mentality is best deployed for matches you are favourites to lose and in which your opponent is expected to put you under extended pressure." Now if you believe as some seem to that counter is a strategy for a dominant team such as Barcelona for example, okay. But the logic is awry when compared to the description and could therefore be easily construed as misleading, certainly to a new player it maybe. So whether right or wrong I don't understand why it's necessary to give Loversleaper something of a hard time? Either his assumptions/experience is correct or he has fallen into this mis-labelling trap. To an onlooker, it lends itself to the outcome of this argument being unsatisfactory either way. If Loversleaper is correct then a lot of advice been given on the forums is wrong. Or at those who are saying the game/ME is basically fine (bugs aside) and Loversleaper is incorrect, that's fine, but at face value it would appear counter-intuitive for many as the logic/labelling, call it what you will, is unhelpful and needs amending. And if that's the case, surely it is better to campaign SI than criticise him for his view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshace Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You're right, it is feedback, I skimmed assuming you were carrying on the discussion like the other posts deleted, apologies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siven Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Jordon Ibe, 20yrs old, 35k a week wonderkid. We win the league and he wants a new contract. So i start negotiations. He starts out wanting 125k a week. Now THAT is a massive increase, i managed to get him down to 83k, but that imo is still way too much for a 20yr old. Am i just to tight Or does it seem a bit too high? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshace Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Too tight i'd say.. he's the new wonderkid who is almost emulating Sterling.. what were his demands like at a similar age again? and don't forget it was an opening bid. If he's gone from 35k to 83k in one negotiation session, that's not bad going.. irl players negotiate over a season or two, well, important players anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RvN#17 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Contracts are always like that. My favorite is when I offer some let's say X player who's on a 10k p/w wage and he wants 80k p/w at my club and I cancel the deal, next week he goes to some other club for like 20k p/w. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshace Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 It's negotiation RvN ... it's their opening bid, you have to negotiate them down, might not work the first time or the next 3 times he demands a contract, but that's what it's about. Not just giving in and accepting the big step up they want, of course you might lose the player or he might get upset, but that's exactly how contract negotiation works in real life too.. the player will always want much more than they deserve.. obviously... or should I say, the players agent will. Try it next time.. might change the way you handle them. I remember in FM15 having to tell Ibra to sod off all season because he thought he deserves a 100k wage hike at the age of 34.. eventually after a lot of sulking and not getting games, I got him on the same amount of his previous contract. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siven Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Yeah, i always try to negotiate well on contracts. Just gave Skrtel a new one, he was on 70k a week, 25k app fee, 30k goal, 30k clean sheet. His new one is 80k a week, 14.5k app, 18.25k clean sheet and no goal bonus. I quite often am happy to give them a higher weekly wage if i can lower their bonuses a lot Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshace Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Yeah, i always try to negotiate well on contracts.Just gave Skrtel a new one, he was on 70k a week, 25k app fee, 30k goal, 30k clean sheet. His new one is 80k a week, 14.5k app, 18.25k clean sheet and no goal bonus. I quite often am happy to give them a higher weekly wage if i can lower their bonuses a lot I tend to play lower leagues so bonuses are killer.. I almost never let the agents fee or signing bonuses be anywhere near what they ask for (they actually don't mind, it's almost never a deal breaker), and I never let them have any percentage bonuses like sell on fee's or promotion wage % increases... they kill you. Sometimes I just think people want a single instant button to get things done in this game... work on it people .. play the long game Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnhughthom Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I generally try to lower the basic and bump the bonuses, if they are getting the bonuses it usually means they're playing well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Or at those who are saying the game/ME is basically fine (bugs aside) and Loversleaper is incorrect, that's fine, but at face value it would appear counter-intuitive for many as the logic/labelling, call it what you will, is unhelpful and needs amending. And if that's the case, surely it is better to campaign SI than criticise him for his view. For me the labelling is certainly counter-intuitive and has been for a number of years. I've mentioned it already in this discussion as well as several others over the last few years, other users have also made at least passing reference to to the labelling as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loversleaper Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 For me the labelling is certainly counter-intuitive and has been for a number of years. I've mentioned it already in this discussion as well as several others over the last few years, other users have also made at least passing reference to to the labelling as well. What do you and others find counter-intuitive? Please explain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlesbeams Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 So my young defender just played 90 minutes for Austria U21s and scored in an 8-0 win, despite still having 3-4 months remaining on his current injury, a broken leg. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paok_revolution Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Last year,2 updates had come alive until the 4/12.This year,with more issues at ME,we still waiting.Please release an update,as soon as possible Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Last year,2 updates had come alive until the 4/12.This year,with more issues at ME,we still waiting.Please release an update,as soon as possible Please stop asking! An update will be released when it is ready to be released. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc1 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Last year,2 updates had come alive until the 4/12.This year,with more issues at ME,we still waiting.Please release an update,as soon as possible Also last year we hand almost 45 pages compared to 15 this year, the ME is fairly good this year with very little to actually change, hence why no updates, I wouldn't be surprised if any updates are to be done it'll wait till the January data update. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake Appeal Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Last year,2 updates had come alive until the 4/12.This year,with more issues at ME,we still waiting.Please release an update,as soon as possible This year's ME has problems, but nothing like last year's, which was almost as bad as I have ever seen it at release. I actually see 0-0, 1-0, and 1-1 results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgar555 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Also last year we hand almost 45 pages compared to 15 this year, the ME is fairly good this year with very little to actually change, hence why no updates, I wouldn't be surprised if any updates are to be done it'll wait till the January data update. And about 10 of those pages are the inane tactical chat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleR Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Also last year we hand almost 45 pages compared to 15 this year, the ME is fairly good this year with very little to actually change, hence why no updates, I wouldn't be surprised if any updates are to be done it'll wait till the January data update. Then that should at least be communicated because I always prefer waiting for the first patch until I start my long term save. If the first patch is the january update, however, that would change my mind. I understand that this years game is much better on launch than it was in the last couple of years, which is obviously great. But communication wise I think SI could still improve. Even for a game like Fallout 4 (which is also a massive simulation just like FM with the accompanying bugs that such simulations cause), they at least communicated when they were going to patch. The fact they did release a patch in the first week is not the point (they have a much bigger team and finances etc.), but why is it so hard for SI to state: we will most likely release a patch in the week of december 7th. Is it purely because they never know when its ready? It is hard for me to believe that. Generally it is very interesting to see how people cope with the Football Manager bugs each year. All the other games the developers of the game get blasted if the game has a lot of bugs/massive bugs on release. For a game like fallout (previous example) its less because people understand the nature of the game and simluation, but the critique is still there. They, however, respond with a bug fix in week 1. While here most people defend SI for not doing anything just because it is less buggy than the previous year. Sure its very playable but things like work permit problems, processing problems, regens with Mohawks make me stop going for at least a long term save (and tbh playing the game at all). Another important question is obviously why year on year on SI is not able to make a mostly bugless game. Is it the complex nature of the game? Is it the yearly release schedule? Is it the size of the team? Is the added number of releases (mobile, touch, full game, in game editor, eastside hockey etc). That is what intrigues me a lot. Just to make sure, yes I love SI, I love the games, I even love the game with all its flaws and bugs (which mostly get ironed out during the year), but why is it so hard to just make a statement so that people at least know what is going on. I am getting sick of checking in each day hoping to see a patch so that I can finally start my true enjoyment with the game. Seeing bugs that are stated to be "under review" does not make it any better, what does it even mean, what is the timespan for it. At least tell us if we are going to have to wait until the winter transfer update. Just.. anything.. come on SI.. you have put such en emphasis on communication, interaction and 'feelings' in the last couple of years, why forget it outside of the game in the real world? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake Appeal Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 (they have a much bigger team and finances etc.) Actually, they don't. Bethesda have a little over 100 employees, not all of whom worked on Fallout 4. I believe SI is "just shy" of 100. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Then that should at least be communicated because I always prefer waiting for the first patch until I start my long term save. If the first patch is the january update, however, that would change my mind. I understand that this years game is much better on launch than it was in the last couple of years, which is obviously great. But communication wise I think SI could still improve. Even for a game like Fallout 4 (which is also a massive simulation just like FM with the accompanying bugs that such simulations cause), they at least communicated when they were going to patch. The fact they did release a patch in the first week is not the point (they have a much bigger team and finances etc.), but why is it so hard for SI to state: we will most likely release a patch in the week of december 7th. Is it purely because they never know when its ready? It is hard for me to believe that.Generally it is very interesting to see how people cope with the Football Manager bugs each year. All the other games the developers of the game get blasted if the game has a lot of bugs/massive bugs on release. For a game like fallout (previous example) its less because people understand the nature of the game and simluation, but the critique is still there. They, however, respond with a bug fix in week 1. While here most people defend SI for not doing anything just because it is less buggy than the previous year. Sure its very playable but things like work permit problems, processing problems, regens with Mohawks make me stop going for at least a long term save (and tbh playing the game at all). Another important question is obviously why year on year on SI is not able to make a mostly bugless game. Is it the complex nature of the game? Is it the yearly release schedule? Is it the size of the team? Is the added number of releases (mobile, touch, full game, in game editor, eastside hockey etc). That is what intrigues me a lot. Just to make sure, yes I love SI, I love the games, I even love the game with all its flaws and bugs (which mostly get ironed out during the year), but why is it so hard to just make a statement so that people at least know what is going on. I am getting sick of checking in each day hoping to see a patch so that I can finally start my true enjoyment with the game. Seeing bugs that are stated to be "under review" does not make it any better, what does it even mean, what is the timespan for it. At least tell us if we are going to have to wait until the winter transfer update. Just.. anything.. come on SI.. you have put such en emphasis on communication, interaction and 'feelings' in the last couple of years, why forget it outside of the game in the real world? Just play the game? What does it matter? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fancy Gaffot Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Anyone else seeing TONS of games where goals are scored in quick succession? Like 10, 12, 16 minutes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Seb Wassell Posted December 4, 2015 SI Staff Share Posted December 4, 2015 So my young defender just played 90 minutes for Austria U21s and scored in an 8-0 win, despite still having 3-4 months remaining on his current injury, a broken leg. Hey there Charlesbeams, Could you please post here: http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/524-Other-Gameplay-Issues If you still happen to have it, could you also please upload a save from before that match? Details on uploading here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/441296 Thank you kindly, Seb. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forameuss Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Then that should at least be communicated because I always prefer waiting for the first patch until I start my long term save. If the first patch is the january update, however, that would change my mind. I understand that this years game is much better on launch than it was in the last couple of years, which is obviously great. But communication wise I think SI could still improve. Even for a game like Fallout 4 (which is also a massive simulation just like FM with the accompanying bugs that such simulations cause), they at least communicated when they were going to patch. The fact they did release a patch in the first week is not the point (they have a much bigger team and finances etc.), but why is it so hard for SI to state: we will most likely release a patch in the week of december 7th. Is it purely because they never know when its ready? It is hard for me to believe that. Why is it hard for you to believe that? It's the truth. Saying anything else shows a remarkable misunderstanding of how development works. If they told everyone a date, it's almost a certainty that one of two things would happen - the date would slip (disaster for SI) or they would release just to hit a date, and be left with more bugs (bigger disaster for SI). Seriously, why is it so hard to understand that? More time means a better product, and if you show me someone who'd rather get a patch on a fixed date that will be markedly inferior to one produced when SI want it to be, then I'll show you a liar. Generally it is very interesting to see how people cope with the Football Manager bugs each year. All the other games the developers of the game get blasted if the game has a lot of bugs/massive bugs on release. For a game like fallout (previous example) its less because people understand the nature of the game and simluation, but the critique is still there. They, however, respond with a bug fix in week 1. While here most people defend SI for not doing anything just because it is less buggy than the previous year. Sure its very playable but things like work permit problems, processing problems, regens with Mohawks make me stop going for at least a long term save (and tbh playing the game at all). People "cope" mostly because they're sensible rounded people that either don't notice the bugs - because I'm convinced that people who don't visit here will not notice the less glaring ones - or just accept that they're there, and that they'll be fixed in due time. And saying that having regens with mohawks is stopping you playing a long term save...come on. Another important question is obviously why year on year on SI is not able to make a mostly bugless game. Is it the complex nature of the game? Is it the yearly release schedule? Is it the size of the team? Is the added number of releases (mobile, touch, full game, in game editor, eastside hockey etc). That is what intrigues me a lot. Because games development. Seriously. Just to make sure, yes I love SI, I love the games, I even love the game with all its flaws and bugs (which mostly get ironed out during the year), but why is it so hard to just make a statement so that people at least know what is going on. I am getting sick of checking in each day hoping to see a patch so that I can finally start my true enjoyment with the game. Seeing bugs that are stated to be "under review" does not make it any better, what does it even mean, what is the timespan for it. At least tell us if we are going to have to wait until the winter transfer update. Just.. anything.. come on SI.. you have put such en emphasis on communication, interaction and 'feelings' in the last couple of years, why forget it outside of the game in the real world? Goes back to the initial point. There is going to be no date, because there is no date. Until it's ready. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleR Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Why is it hard for you to believe that? It's the truth. Saying anything else shows a remarkable misunderstanding of how development works. If they told everyone a date, it's almost a certainty that one of two things would happen - the date would slip (disaster for SI) or they would release just to hit a date, and be left with more bugs (bigger disaster for SI). Seriously, why is it so hard to understand that? More time means a better product, and if you show me someone who'd rather get a patch on a fixed date that will be markedly inferior to one produced when SI want it to be, then I'll show you a liar. People "cope" mostly because they're sensible rounded people that either don't notice the bugs - because I'm convinced that people who don't visit here will not notice the less glaring ones - or just accept that they're there, and that they'll be fixed in due time. And saying that having regens with mohawks is stopping you playing a long term save...come on. Because games development. Seriously. Goes back to the initial point. There is going to be no date, because there is no date. Until it's ready. I dont want to start a whole 1 vs 1 discussion because this is not the place for it. I will respond on you this 1 time and then I will leave it. First of all is it that bad if a predicted date would change? Sorry the patch is out a bit later (at least we know its coming soon). I would not think so. Would it be bad if they released just the bug fixed they have ready on the date and maybe work with smaller patches? Again.. No I dont think so. You are only thinking in negatives when you can also think in positives. More time means a better product, but how you reach the "more time" does not really matter; it can be in smaller increments or it can be in one big bulky patch. It can also be announced and then shifted to another date when its not ready if you need the "more time". Btw the past has shown multiple times that "more time" does not always mean a better product. So yes call me a liar I would prefer 'inferior' smaller patches then the bigger ones; like every other game does. The part about sensibility is purely personal. Yes I want a long term save to be perfect and for me regens and training them, and getting to 'know' them is one of the biggest aspects of the game. If they look weird/similair etc. Yes for me that is stopping me from playing a long term save and everyone might have other reasons to do that. For example there is also a bug in the Dutch leagues which f's up the scheduling so that you suddenly have all the matches on friday instead of saturday, sonday. Someone from SI has said this can only be fixed if you start a new game. What other problems will be there that can only be fixed when you start a new game, and how much will it influence your save game in the long run. Regarding your "because games development", its hard to take such a statement serious so I am not going to respond to that. I am sure you know as little as game development as I do. I do know that other developers handle updates, patches and communication much better than: you will see when its ready". And regarding your last point, I understand that there is not going to be a date and that is what is bothering me.. no date, no indication no communication. And for me that is an issue because it is stopping me from enjoying the full and 'correct' FM experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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