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Vegeta01

4231 help/why did I lose this game

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Managing United as a throwaway save for the Beta. I felt a loss was due having won every game until this 1-0 loss to Stoke, although the manner of the goal annoyed me more than the actual loss itself.

My back four was set as the ball was played out to the right winger, he was closed down by my left back who he then beat and played a cross into my box. At this point their lone striker is man marked by one of my cb's as the other one sits deeper to cover. The cross bounces at the front side of the six yard looking as though it will be an easy ball to claim for my keeper when he appears to dive under it as my cb's stop dead and allow the striker to control the ball unchallenged and tap it into an empty net.

I could see my system wasn't working in this particular game and was trying to decide if it was more of a tactical or motivational problem. Looking back I think I should have switched to a more defensive system and looked to control possession but I lost my head after the goal and made too many changes trying to get back into the game.

I was suffering from quite a few injuries and this game was in between Champions League group games so I played a weakened team, I made one change to my tactic pregame in changing the role and duty of Wilson to Advanced Forward - Attack to better suit his abilities.

Things just went wrong in this game, De Gea choosing to kick it straight to their defenders everytime he got the ball despite having a back four who were all completely unmarked. Players dwelling on the ball when there was a number of easy options available, passes going nowhere near their intended target. Everything that happened in this game was frustrating and contributed to my irrational handling of the tactical changes I made.

Tactic

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=548783468

Instructions

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=548783414

Match

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0_YJ-QA55ITZWZET3pZMXBnWmM/view?usp=sharing

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Main issue of course is that you didn't create any chances at all and just had a single shot on goal, but obviously it goes deeper than that.

My first thought is that your 4 attacking players are basically moving in to the same area in possession, although using an AF does change that a bit. But they are all very central, and Stoke where sitting deep and had an advantage in there. I assume this tactic has worked for you seeing as you are 2nd in the league, so maybe it was just one of those games.

You had very few penetrating passes in the game and passing accuracy was a bit low with some players, suggesting to me that they had few good passing options.

I noticed that Schneiderlin (dlp) and Valencia(FB-s) had a lot of intercepted passes. Young (If-s) too, but those were mostly free kicks, although there were some instances where he was attempting to hit impossible passes to the striker, as they were a bit far apart and outmanned.

The reason for many of those intercepted passes is that when Valencia was on the ball and closed down by their winger, there where rarely any players around him open for a pass. Your right winger was bombing forward and your playmaker was marked by a combination of their CM, AM and striker. When you playmaker was on the ball he was being closed down quickly too, and often had no forward passing options, due to the forwards players all running into a cluttered center.

So basically there was too much space between your midfield and attack and no player able to link the two. Stoke always had a man or two extra in the center, and since they were sitting deep and compact, the forward passes were easily intercepted. Add to that you didn't really use the width of the pitch it seems, only attempting 9 crosses, and when either of your fullbaks came forward they were usually alone vs two players.

For games like this I would say there is a number of things you can try

Try to get at least one more man in midfield, mirroring their system I think would have worked well. Dropping the wingers down to make a 4411 would have ensured your fullbacks and wingers would have worked together and your midfielders always having someone open to pass to.

I would also suggest you make one of your wide players a winger and have the fullback on that side support him, and have your other full backs come further forward on the overlap, but ideally supported by a playmaker on that side, and use a playmaker instead of a SS.

That's my 2 cents and a bit more. I'm by no means an expert. I simply just used the prozone tool and looked at the passes.

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You ask why did you lose maybe you should ask why did they win if you get me.

Could we see a picture of Stoke formation it will give a clearer picture of things as your only talking about how you play and not what the opponents are doing.

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I've got the game open so I can reply for the OP, I guess.

Stoke were playing 4411

One winger attacking and one on support

Both fullbacks on defensive duties

AM on support

Striker on attack, but to me it looks like they changed him to support after the goal.

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Did you change De Gea players instruction to pass it short ???

With your formation i would attack it with my right winger a left footer cutting in my striker as a AF and i would have the man in the hole moved slightly right to overload your left centre back when Blind has gone forward.

I would have thought there right midfielder was Attack and they tried to counter and there overload option would have been Blind side.

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Thanks for the input.

Eple, your analysis does make sense for the interceptions but I did also see what i felt were a lot of aimless passes instead of using the easy option.

Clarets, Yes, I did change his instructions. He was supposed to be giving it to my full backs but I'd noticed he kept hoofing it long, I'm not sure why it wasn't active from the start of the game.

I've made a few changes.

RB has been set to WB-S, the CM roles have been swapped and the BBM has been changed to a CM-S, AML is now a W-S and the SS has changed into a T-A.

TI's has seen Tempo, Defensive Line and Closing down drop down a notch with look for the overlap added.

PI's has seen GK get distribute to fullbacks(should have been on already but was missing when I checked), CD's have pass shorter, AMR has stay wider and AML has roaming.

I'm hoping the T-A will either be in or creating space while the AML draws the full back infield leaving room for the CWB-A to attack, on the other side I expect the AMR to still cut in on occasion but also to offer an outlet while having the option of a lay off to the RB.

Lets see how this develops.

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I've evolved the tactic and it has become more solid, but I'm still struggling with defensive teams. I expect teams to be defensive against me and have adopted a lower mentality/tempo with the intention of trying to and create a few good chances, but it isn't going as planned. I'm not creating enough CCC's and this is leading to too many of my shots being off target.

formation

AWiRLyw.png

TI's

oGtUjJg.png

PI's

D2fClb8.png

mQlO7HT.png

CD's have pass it shorter and GK has distribute to FB's

It's start of season two and while results have been good that has been more a product of the players overcoming my tactical inadequacies

PKM's

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0_YJ-QA55ITUlhOQmEzUGl4ZGc/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0_YJ-QA55ITVUQ4TVMxTV9KczQ/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0_YJ-QA55ITSEc4Sk50cTA3QVE/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0_YJ-QA55ITSHdmSjRXR1dxMTQ/view?usp=sharing

I also sometimes have problems when my players are having a bad game, how should I try to counteract this?

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Yikes... Bit offensive isn't it?

The thing is, the teams playing against you are defensive, they'll have bodies standing exactly where you're throwing everyone. I'd pull everyone back into the midfield strata, because a runner from deep is likely to cause more trouble than a player that is already in the 'pocket' being contained. Unless, of course, you can make that front line move about with enough fluidity to cause havoc/.

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It's a pretty standard 4-2-3-1, the AM/ST placement makes it look worse than it is.

If you find that you're having many shots off target, you might just try to Work Ball Into Box. That should result in fewer but better shots.

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The plan is to eventually morph it into a 4411 but my current squad is more suited to a 4231/41221. I have the wingers training for ML/MR and will move them back if I have a healthy lead but as they're awkward at the minute I want to wait a few months before it becomes my starting formation. I've tried using 4411 but I've found it tends to be a bit toothless against teams that aren't likely to attack me.

I use work ball into box if I'm taking too many long shots, but I've had them result in a few wins from games where I wouldn't have otherwise found a way through so I don't use it as a continuous instruction.

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