When a player wants out...

[..Valhalla..]

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong place, but I'll keep it name-free just in case.

I have a defender who is desperate to play for Barcelona. It's near the end of the first window and he is unhappy because he wants to leave.

He's my captain and one of the best players at the club, I've offered him to clubs at far below his market value (and included Barcelona) but nobody is willing to make an offer, which isn't surprising in this game. So what am I supposed to do with him?

I warned him that I was going to strip him of the captaincy, which he actually accepted positively, but the entire squad turned against me.

He's not interested in discussing a new contract, his performances are all in the low 6's and it always says "looking disinterested" (or words to that effect) during the matches.

He's just an asshole really, and he's ruining my game. How do I resolve this nonsense?

[samdiatmh]

he's not ruining your game, you are

he may have caused a fuss because Barcelona show some form of interest

except a bid never came in, because they went for a new target

and you've written him out of your plans by forcing him out

and because he's the captain, he's probably more liked that the new manager (who clearly looks like he's on a power trip)

time over again, you should have told him "we'll let you leave if a bid comes in" of which you won't be standing in the way of his wishes, but also covering yourself in case the bid never arrives

[..Valhalla..]

he's not ruining your game, you are

he may have caused a fuss because Barcelona show some form of interest

except a bid never came in, because they went for a new target

and you've written him out of your plans by forcing him out

and because he's the captain, he's probably more liked that the new manager (who clearly looks like he's on a power trip)

time over again, you should have told him "we'll let you leave if a bid comes in" of which you won't be standing in the way of his wishes, but also covering yourself in case the bid never arrives

As soon as he raised the issue, I told him I'd let him leave if a bid comes in. I carried on playing him, and retained him as captain (because he's a key player).

He wants to join Barcelona because it's written in his career plans, it has nothing to do with their interest or me rejecting a bid (there has never been either bid or interest). He just wants to join them.

It's nothing to do with my actions whatsoever. Stripping him of the captaincy is the last thing I did before starting this thread, and I've yet to continue time in-game.

[Cougar2010]

There is no such thing as a "career plan".

You already said you would let him go if a bid was made, there was no reason to do anything else.

[..Valhalla..]

There is no such thing as a "career plan".

You already said you would let him go if a bid was made, there was no reason to do anything else.

Am I playing the same game as everyone? He approached me about joining Barcelona. I agreed I would sell if they bid. But they didn't. Pretty soon a "slt" icon appeared and now he's moping about because he wants to join Barcelona.

It actually says on his personal page:

Negatives

(minor issue) Wants to join Barcelona as part of his career plans.

[Cougar2010]

Am I playing the same game as everyone? He approached me about joining Barcelona. I agreed I would sell if they bid. But they didn't. Pretty soon a "slt" icon appeared and now he's moping about because he wants to join Barcelona.

It actually says on his personal page:

Negatives

(minor issue) Wants to join Barcelona as part of his career plans.

Not seen that one before.

Anyway its just words, nothing more. He wants to join Barcelona because they are a bigger team.

Again you said you would accept an offer when a bid was made, that was enough.

He won't sign a contract when he has the "SLT" tag so you either need to wait until it disappears (Anywhere from 3-6 months) and then offer him a contract or if his contract is running out offer him out and hope for the best cashing in before he leaves.

As for your comment about not being able to sell players you need to look at your game setup & get a better understanding of the transfer market.

[..Valhalla..]

Not seen that one before.

Anyway its just words, nothing more. He wants to join Barcelona because they are a bigger team.

Again you said you would accept an offer when a bid was made, that was enough.

He won't sign a contract when he has the "SLT" tag so you either need to wait until it disappears (Anywhere from 3-6 months) and then offer him a contract or if his contract is running out offer him out and hope for the best cashing in before he leaves.

As for your comment about not being able to sell players you need to look at your game setup & get a better understanding of the transfer market.

Oh will it go away? If that's the case then I'll wait it out. I don't mind waiting.

As for my "cheap shot" comment regarding selling players, you're probably right. I can (and do) regularly sell players, I just notice it when I don't manage to sell one.

[podunkboy]

I've had the "wants to go play at Real Madrid" or Barcelona on players, so I set their transfer fee really high, the Spanish club doesn't come in with an offer, and after the transfer window closes the player always says he's willing to stay put since Madrid no longer is interested in him. If they DO come in with an offer, I let him go - I'd rather collect a big transfer fee and buy a player or two who wants to play for me than keep a whiny little brat in the squad.

[Guest]

As Barcelona have not made a bid & assuming they did not decline to negotiate when you offered the player out due to the asking price being too high I would expect the player to have given up on the move once the window closed, based on what you've posted & think you acted too quickly in taking the captaincy off him, personally I wouldn't have done it unless the minor issue became a major issue as I might still want him to be captain if no move takes place & as you've found out the risk of annoying other players is always there.

[..Valhalla..]

Well, we learn something new every day with this game. I've started a new game - all but 2 players (youngsters) were annoyed at me for changing captains so soon, even though the captain wasn't dedicated to the club *sigh*

New game, same team. If it happens again I'll know what to do

[Guest]

FM is brilliant at making us learn from our mistakes.

[markantony]

Always pick the "I'll accept bids provided they match our valuation of you"

I've found that the clubs rarely come in for your player anyway. If they do, just negotiate the offer until they get bored and withdraw it.

[Sunstrikuuu]

That's also one of the best times to sell players. If they've asked for a move they won't get upset if you transfer-list them and offer to other clubs, which means you can often use a desire to play for Barcelona to move a player for a big fee to Zenit, Monaco or some other nouveau riche club. Just make sure you do it separately rather than ticking the transfer-list and set player to not needed button.

[markantony]

We should have the option to ask the player to waive his loyalty bonus on this.

[mrw072]

Always pick the "I'll accept bids provided they match our valuation of you"

I've found that the clubs rarely come in for your player anyway. If they do, just negotiate the offer until they get bored and withdraw it.

I usually do this too! And it does seem to work! But I've found that in some cases it backfires because the original team drop their interest and another team bid. When I rejected the second teams bid my player reacted as if it was the original club bidding. He was disappointed that I turned the bid down, even though I'd said that I'd accept a bid from the first club only. I think I ended up selling him shortly afterwards anyway, because I was worried he would disrupt the harmony of the squad. But it was frustrating!

[markantony]

I usually do this too! And it does seem to work! But I've found that in some cases it backfires because the original team drop their interest and another team bid. When I rejected the second teams bid my player reacted as if it was the original club bidding. He was disappointed that I turned the bid down, even though I'd said that I'd accept a bid from the first club only. I think I ended up selling him shortly afterwards anyway, because I was worried he would disrupt the harmony of the squad. But it was frustrating!

That is because the promise system doesn't work correctly. I had a guy want to join Inter. I rejected a bid from Liverpool and that made him react as if I'd broken a promise.

[Cougar2010]

I usually do this too! And it does seem to work! But I've found that in some cases it backfires because the original team drop their interest and another team bid. When I rejected the second teams bid my player reacted as if it was the original club bidding. He was disappointed that I turned the bid down, even though I'd said that I'd accept a bid from the first club only. I think I ended up selling him shortly afterwards anyway, because I was worried he would disrupt the harmony of the squad. But it was frustrating!

That is because the promise system doesn't work correctly. I had a guy want to join Inter. I rejected a bid from Liverpool and that made him react as if I'd broken a promise.

How is that not working correctly?

The player has already stated that he wants to leave and you've agreed to sell him if a specific club meets the value. Aside from the fact its a different club making the offer its clear that the player wants to leave and you should expect him to be disappointed if you turn the bid down.

Whilst it wouldn't show as a broken promise on the promise screen I don't see why you expect the player to be fine with it, the clues are there.

[Cougar2010]

We should have the option to ask the player to waive his loyalty bonus on this.

If a player requests a transfer he doesn't get his loyalty bonus.

[markantony]

How is that not working correctly?

The player has already stated that he wants to leave and you've agreed to sell him if a specific club meets the value. Aside from the fact its a different club making the offer its clear that the player wants to leave and you should expect him to be disappointed if you turn the bid down.

Whilst it wouldn't show as a broken promise on the promise screen I don't see why you expect the player to be fine with it, the clues are there.

Whatever. The payer specifically asked me to accept a bid from Inter. No such bid was made. I rejected a bid from a different team, playing in a different city, in a different league, in a different country.

If the game wants "accept a bid from Inter" to mean "accept a bid from any club about the same rep as Inter" that is what it should say.

If a player requests a transfer he doesn't get his loyalty bonus.

He isn't officially requesting a transfer.

If you agree to accept a bid from X club, it does not affect the players transfer status.

[HUNT3R]

Whatever. The payer specifically asked me to accept a bid from Inter. No such bid was made. I rejected a bid from a different team, playing in a different city, in a different league, in a different country.

If the game wants "accept a bid from Inter" to mean "accept a bid from any club about the same rep as Inter" that is what it should say.

He isn't officially requesting a transfer.

If you agree to accept a bid from X club, it does not affect the players transfer status.

The player will tell you that he KNOWS he said Inter, but that he doesn't care now, he just wants to leave.

[markantony]

The player will tell you that he KNOWS he said Inter, but that he doesn't care now, he just wants to leave.

Which has nothing to do with the initial promise. The user has no way of knowing this will constitute a broken promise.

[HUNT3R]

Which has nothing to do with the initial promise.

Players can be and are at times unreasonable.

[markantony]

Players can be and are at times unreasonable.

Okay....

So whats to stop the game giving you a nod that the transfer would be acceptable?

[HUNT3R]

Okay....

So whats to stop the game giving you a nod that the transfer would be acceptable?

There is no 'game'. There's you and the player. He is telling you that he doesn't care that it's specifically Inter now, it can be anyone.

[Sunstrikuuu]

There's always a game. The mechanics are inseparable from the experience.

Especially when you then have to justify in job interviews why you have a rep for breaking promises, and there's no option to deny you made the promise in the first place.

[HUNT3R]

There's always a game. The mechanics are inseparable from the experience.

Especially when you then have to justify in job interviews why you have a rep for breaking promises, and there's no option to deny you made the promise in the first place.

That wasn't the point. 'The game' can't give you a nod that you should accept or reject a transfer. You could maybe have the assistant voice an opinion on how the player would possibly react, but that'll be a feature request.

If it's recorded as a broken promise, then report it so it can be fixed. By now though, if that's the case, it should have been looked at for FM16.

[Sunstrikuuu]

But "the game" could very easily tell you whether a transfer - or a team selection, or whatever - is related to any ongoing promises. It already does, sort of, with a single message from your assistant. And it could very easily be set up so that, in the upper corner, where it shows minimum release clauses and such, it says "Player X has been promised that he'll be sold".

That, I think, is what he's talking about with the word 'acceptable'. It's not whether the transfer is acceptable to the player, but whether the proposed transfer will interact with the promise. And that's where the mechanics of the game come in. Because the complaint isn't that the player wants to leave, it's that the promise system doesn't make a distinction between different clubs.

[HUNT3R]

What does that have to do with the player being unreasonable? To rephrase, how does that tie into the player being unreasonable?

[Sunstrikuuu]

It doesn't have anything to do with it, because no one cares about that but you. It's not about the player being unreasonable, it's about the promise system being poorly worded.

[HUNT3R]

"I'm disappointed you rejected the bid from Liverpool. I know I originally said Inter but I don't care now. I just want to leave. "

That is pretty clear.

[markantony]

There is no 'game'. There's you and the player. He is telling you that he doesn't care that it's specifically Inter now, it can be anyone.

By "the game" I am obviously referencing Football Manager...

[markantony]

"I'm disappointed you rejected the bid from Liverpool. I know I originally said Inter but I don't care now. I just want to leave. "

That is pretty clear.

Which comes AFTER.

[Sunstrikuuu]

That's also a red herring, because that's not the wording I'm talking about.

The wording in the promise systems is "...will accept a bid from Inter". And the condition is "...will accept a bid". The two things are not the same. And that's the problem. I'm fine with the player being upset. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that it counts as a promise being broken. Just like ti doesn't make sense that the promise system treats "I'll accept a bid that meets your value" and "I'll accept a bid as soon as we have a replacement" as completely interchangeable. Just as it doesn't make sense that the system treats "I'll accept a bid that meets your value" as "I'll accept any bid".

[markantony]

But "the game" could very easily tell you whether a transfer - or a team selection, or whatever - is related to any ongoing promises. It already does, sort of, with a single message from your assistant. And it could very easily be set up so that, in the upper corner, where it shows minimum release clauses and such, it says "Player X has been promised that he'll be sold".

That, I think, is what he's talking about with the word 'acceptable'. It's not whether the transfer is acceptable to the player, but whether the proposed transfer will interact with the promise. And that's where the mechanics of the game come in. Because the complaint isn't that the player wants to leave, it's that the promise system doesn't make a distinction between different clubs.

^This perfectly. I don't care that the player now "just wants to leave" the promise I made wasn't "to sell him" it was to sell him to a specific club. Unless the game actually tells you, it shouldn't count against you.

[markantony]

That's also a red herring, because that's not the wording I'm talking about.

The wording in the promise systems is "...will accept a bid from Inter". And the condition is "...will accept a bid". The two things are not the same. And that's the problem. I'm fine with the player being upset. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that it counts as a promise being broken. Just like ti doesn't make sense that the promise system treats "I'll accept a bid that meets your value" and "I'll accept a bid as soon as we have a replacement" as completely interchangeable. Just as it doesn't make sense that the system treats "I'll accept a bid that meets your value" as "I'll accept any bid".

It is the same with contracts. The promise to "offer a new contract" translates to "I promise to give you a contract you find acceptable"

[Sunstrikuuu]

It is the same with contracts. The promise to "offer a new contract" translates to "I promise to give you a contract you find acceptable"

Also the promise to give more first-team football is a promise to give more first-team football in the league. The promise system is riddled with this sort of hidden tripwire.

[HUNT3R]

Again, if you find scenarios in Fm16 that do not make sense, please report them.

The complaint where the player gets upset at an offer from Liverpool when you promised Inter, shouldn't (IMO) result in a broken promise. Not every player will have that reaction though, so it depends a lot on their personality in the first place. If the player is unreasonable, it shouldn't result in you getting 'penalised' for breaking a promise when you haven't.

The contract thing is annoying, but from a practical viewpoint, it may not be that easy to rectify unless the wording is changed to clearly state that the player needs to agree to the contract for the promise to succeed. If it was just offering a contract, nothing is stopping you from offering a contract for £1 / week and then that's your promise of offering a contract fulfilled. What would constitute a fair offer will have varying answers depending on the context, so that's why I said that it's not a straight forward, easy fix.

[samdiatmh]

The contract thing is annoying, but from a practical viewpoint, it may not be that easy to rectify unless the wording is changed to clearly state that the player needs to agree to the contract for the promise to succeed. If it was just offering a contract, nothing is stopping you from offering a contract for £1 / week and then that's your promise of offering a contract fulfilled. What would constitute a fair offer will have varying answers depending on the context, so that's why I said that it's not a straight forward, easy fix.

but when that scenario comes by with a 'my client wants a new contract due to good performances' or 'my client wants a new contract due to the rejected advances of BigClubX', then I think it's pretty obvious that he wants a pay increase (good performance = pay increase, or he wants something in line with what BigClubX would offer him)

I know that it's not specifically said, but it's kind of implied given how that promise comes about

they don't walk into your office asking for a new contract for no apparent reason

edit: that's offtopic though

and I will state that I made an incorrect assumption with the OP - I thought he was on a bit of a power trip, rather than complaining about the player interaction

[markantony]

Again, if you find scenarios in Fm16 that do not make sense, please report them.

The complaint where the player gets upset at an offer from Liverpool when you promised Inter, shouldn't (IMO) result in a broken promise. Not every player will have that reaction though, so it depends a lot on their personality in the first place. If the player is unreasonable, it shouldn't result in you getting 'penalised' for breaking a promise when you haven't.

The contract thing is annoying, but from a practical viewpoint, it may not be that easy to rectify unless the wording is changed to clearly state that the player needs to agree to the contract for the promise to succeed. If it was just offering a contract, nothing is stopping you from offering a contract for £1 / week and then that's your promise of offering a contract fulfilled. What would constitute a fair offer will have varying answers depending on the context, so that's why I said that it's not a straight forward, easy fix.

How about you have to offer 105, 15% 20% more etc. If the player rejects this, fine, but a 15% pay rise is legitimate.

And again,

[markantony]

but when that scenario comes by with a 'my client wants a new contract due to good performances' or 'my client wants a new contract due to the rejected advances of BigClubX', then I think it's pretty obvious that he wants a pay increase (good performance = pay increase, or he wants something in line with what BigClubX would offer him)

I know that it's not specifically said, but it's kind of implied given how that promise comes about

they don't walk into your office asking for a new contract for no apparent reason

edit: that's offtopic though

and I will state that I made an incorrect assumption with the OP - I thought he was on a bit of a power trip, rather than complaining about the player interaction

Not really. See this is a reccurring theme, "the clues are there" This is a PC game, not Murder She Wrote.

[HUNT3R]

How about you have to offer 105, 15% 20% more etc. If the player rejects this, fine, but a 15% pay rise is legitimate.

And again,

Because there's no context.

[Cougar2010]

Not really. See this is a reccurring theme, "the clues are there" This is a PC game, not Murder She Wrote.

This is the one thing that frustrates older gamers.

Younger users seem to want everything handed to them on a plate and need to be spoonfed about what to say & do.

The point is this is a game, not a book or a film or a TV show and the difference between them is in a game you make choices & decisions which have consequences some good & some bad. You learn by making those choices & evaluating the consequences.

[markantony]

This is the one thing that frustrates older gamers.

Younger users seem to want everything handed to them on a plate and need to be spoonfed about what to say & do.

The point is this is a game, not a book or a film or a TV show and the difference between them is in a game you make choices & decisions which have consequences some good & some bad. You learn by making those choices & evaluating the consequences.

Don't try to patronise me please. The first instance of this game I bought was CM 93.

I don't need things "spoon feeding" I simply want the consequence to make sense. If I say "I promise we will begin transfer negotiations at the end of the season" then that is what I am promising, I am not promising to give you an acceptable payrise. I have no issue with the player remaining unhappy if he doesn't get the contract he wants, but this should be a seperate thing not related to the initial promise.

[markantony]

Because there's no context.

No context? Player A on 40k wants a new contract. I promise to offer one. I offer him 46K. Promise kept.

Player rejects 46k and is unhappy that the contract offer wasn't good enough. Separate problem.

[HUNT3R]

No context? Player A on 40k wants a new contract. I promise to offer one. I offer him 46K. Promise kept.

Player rejects 46k and is unhappy that the contract offer wasn't good enough. Separate problem.

Your proposed solution is broken, because there's absolutely no context attached to it. It satisfies ONE situation, your player A. What about player B in a different situation? Player C? D?

Why a blanket 15%? What if it's a 19 year old who's on £5-10k, made the step up, starting games regularly and doing well, asking for a new deal? Is 15% enough? No!

[Cougar2010]

Don't try to patronise me please. The first instance of this game I bought was CM 93.

So you should know as well as I do then.

I don't need things "spoon feeding" I simply want the consequence to make sense. If I say "I promise we will begin transfer negotiations at the end of the season" then that is what I am promising, I am not promising to give you an acceptable payrise. I have no issue with the player remaining unhappy if he doesn't get the contract he wants, but this should be a seperate thing not related to the initial promise.

But thats what your posts are implying, your comment above for example "This is a PC game, not Murder She Wrote".

I'll happily accept that the promises aren't working perfectly in FM15 but most of them are. If there is one in FM16 that doesn't work as intended then you report it so SI can evaluate it, it could be simply that the wording wants adjusting or that there is a genuine bug with it.

If we take your example above I don't believe that rejecting an offer from a different club caused a broken promise. If it did I'm fairly sure it would have been reported many times over the last year by many users but if you have evidence then upload it and show SI so we all benefit from the bug being fixed.

[Cougar2010]

No context? Player A on 40k wants a new contract. I promise to offer one. I offer him 46K. Promise kept.

Player rejects 46k and is unhappy that the contract offer wasn't good enough. Separate problem.

Now thats one promise where I agree with you.

Either the wording needs altering or my preference would be for the whole promise to be re-coded.

[markantony]

Your proposed solution is broken, because there's absolutely no context attached to it. It satisfies ONE situation, your player A. What about player B in a different situation? Player C? D?

Why a blanket 15%? What if it's a 19 year old who's on £5-10k, made the step up, starting games regularly and doing well, asking for a new deal? Is 15% enough? No!

All of which could be worked out on a scale.

But I addressed that anyway in the second line.

The only point of a minimum increase would be to stop the player offering an extra £2 a week.

But whether a player accepts your offer is utterly irrelevant to the promise made.

[markantony]

So you should know as well as I do then.

But thats what your posts are implying, your comment above for example "This is a PC game, not Murder She Wrote".

I'll happily accept that the promises aren't working perfectly in FM15 but most of them are. If there is one in FM16 that doesn't work as intended then you report it so SI can evaluate it, it could be simply that the wording wants adjusting or that there is a genuine bug with it.

If we take your example above I don't believe that rejecting an offer from a different club caused a broken promise. If it did I'm fairly sure it would have been reported many times over the last year by many users but if you have evidence then upload it and show SI so we all benefit from the bug being fixed.

I think you are making an unfair generalisation.

And my posts are implying no such thing. A promise to begin negotiations is just that. A promise to accept an offer from a club is just that.

[Sunstrikuuu]

This is the one thing that frustrates older gamers.

Younger users seem to want everything handed to them on a plate and need to be spoonfed about what to say & do.

The point is this is a game, not a book or a film or a TV show and the difference between them is in a game you make choices & decisions which have consequences some good & some bad. You learn by making those choices & evaluating the consequences.

Complaining about 'younger gamers' is the last resort of scoundrels.