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mchbitil

Idea: real-life CL qualifying results and CL group draw for the first season.

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I think it would be great to play exact same CL groups as in real life in FM16.

I know that for many of you the first season is not that interesting, but for me the first season is everything (since it is so close to real life). So it would be great to have same schedule in the league and in CL as in real life.

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Yeah i think i read the same somewhere saying licensing is the problem,it's the same with international qualifying groups and results too

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Yep. Posts two and three are on the money. SI do all that they can to get everything as close to real life as they can, but licensing is an issue which hinders this in a number of areas.

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Should be an option to manually set the groups for the first season (in the editor) then. Let modders/editors get around the licensing issues

And when you start in England July 2015 how do you get around all the qualification that occurs? What if the wrong teams qualify? Can't really be done

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it's the same with international qualifying groups and results too

When did this happen? Because on FM13 the qualifying groups for the 2014 WC are certainly the real ones.

Anyway, since I am one of those weird people who like the game to be realistic but not a documentary of real life, I would absolutely hate this...

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When did this happen? Because on FM13 the qualifying groups for the 2014 WC are certainly the real ones.

Anyway, since I am one of those weird people who like the game to be realistic but not a documentary of real life, I would absolutely hate this...

Groups were real, but the results were randomly regenrated.

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When did this happen? Because on FM13 the qualifying groups for the 2014 WC are certainly the real ones.

the standings are real, but the results don't exist

I actually had the strange occurrence of Spain failing to qualify for WC14 on my FM14 save, so how would that work under this? (do Turkey [who qualified in their place] take their group spot?)

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I actually had the strange occurrence of Spain failing to qualify for WC14 on my FM14 save

Ah - well that would be because FM14 starts in 2013, so in the middle of a qualifying tournament. For odd-numbered versions of FM, the draw will have been made (mirroring the RL one), but the tournament hasn't started yet. ;)

So I assume what you describe could happen on FM16 as well...

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And when you start in England July 2015 how do you get around all the qualification that occurs? What if the wrong teams qualify? Can't really be done

Easy. Just have no qualifying matches at all

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I'll never understand licensing or rights or all that nonsense. I get that the brand of 'UEFA Champions League' and the imagery that goes with it is obviously IP that would command a fee, but the idea that they hold the exclusive rights to a random draw, it just seems silly. "We drew these names out of a barrel, so this combination of teams is ours and you can't use it!". I get that in a standard game it wouldn't really be practical as if you start in June/July, qualifiers still need to be played, but the fact that true to life groups can't be used as a scenario/challenge of sorts makes no sense to me whatsoever.

This whole thing does remind me of the terrible Champions League branded games for the PS1 back in the day. If memory serves correct, they were also Eidos published games. Eidos may have hit a winner with the CM games back in the day, and I guess they had Tombraider too, but aside from those, they published some pretty bloody awful games and lots of them.

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Easy. Just have no qualifying matches at all

if you're harking on about realism, then that part is hardly realistic

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I'll never understand licensing or rights or all that nonsense. I get that the brand of 'UEFA Champions League' and the imagery that goes with it is obviously IP that would command a fee, but the idea that they hold the exclusive rights to a random draw, it just seems silly. "We drew these names out of a barrel, so this combination of teams is ours and you can't use it!". I get that in a standard game it wouldn't really be practical as if you start in June/July, qualifiers still need to be played, but the fact that true to life groups can't be used as a scenario/challenge of sorts makes no sense to me whatsoever.

This whole thing does remind me of the terrible Champions League branded games for the PS1 back in the day. If memory serves correct, they were also Eidos published games. Eidos may have hit a winner with the CM games back in the day, and I guess they had Tombraider too, but aside from those, they published some pretty bloody awful games and lots of them.

welcome to capitalism where "names randomly drawn from a barrel" are protected by law. :D

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The draws are not protected otherwise SI could not use the real groups, the data from matches that have already been played & as a consequence the match results are protected by law therefore prior agreement must be obtained if that information is used in any media & of course that agreement will usually come at a cost.

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I don't see the point of it. If it was proper realism you would not be managing a Champions League side anyway.

I'd prefer the game to start right at the end of the 2014/15 season instead of at the beginning of the next season with all the finances spent by the previous manager.

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The draws are not protected otherwise SI could not use the real groups, the data from matches that have already been played & as a consequence the match results are protected by law therefore prior agreement must be obtained if that information is used in any media & of course that agreement will usually come at a cost.

i stand corrected than. have another question though. media are reporting on those results (newspapers particularly) are dependant on having them, including the reports on games. they don't pay anything to uefa for those righs while depending on them to earn money. how is that so different from FM and FM should pay the rights? one might say they are promoting the competition and uefa but that could be said for fm as well, or not?

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I believe that newspapers & other media outlets do have to pay a fee to print the "official" results while a match report is in essence an opinion piece & my bar-room law degree would suggest that as such it is not covered under IP law.

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My understanding of the law (which admittedly is not extensive) would suggest that a match result is just an objective fact which nobody can claim intellectual property over. (For this reason, a chess game can be reproduced anywhere, but any analysis of it is the intellectual property of the analyst.)

(Are Wikipedia paying a fee for this page, or countless others like it?)

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The draws are not protected otherwise SI could not use the real groups, the data from matches that have already been played & as a consequence the match results are protected by law therefore prior agreement must be obtained if that information is used in any media & of course that agreement will usually come at a cost.

So now you contradict RTHerringBone who said that the draws and real groups are protected.

My suggestion was not to use the real match results or real matches data, this is not important. I suggested only to use real groups and real draws.

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I do not see a contradiction, the post above his was referring to how fake results are used when international qualifiers started in the previous season to that FM's release, the nations in the various groups is always correct.

The reason this is not done for Continental competitions is that the start date for most leagues in FM tend to be before or just after the first qualifying round of those competitions & the assumption is that close to 100% of FM'ers will want to play those fixtures. I'm sure there are West Ham & Southampton fans who are looking forward to putting right what went wring in Europa League qualifying & many other fans of club across Europe who failed to make the group stage of either club competition.

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My understanding of the law (which admittedly is not extensive) would suggest that a match result is just an objective fact which nobody can claim intellectual property over. (For this reason, a chess game can be reproduced anywhere, but any analysis of it is the intellectual property of the analyst.)

(Are Wikipedia paying a fee for this page, or countless others like it?)

I'm not a lawyer (or anything even close) either, but I agree with you 100%. Sports journalists don't pay royalties to be allowed to write about match results in their paper/blog/website etc. either.

Otherwise it would be like saying "you can't write in this history book that Winston Churchill died on 24 Jan 1965 because his date of death is the intellectual property of the Churchill estate". In other words, complete and utter nonsense.

(And yes, I am an historian... :D )

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I believe that newspapers & other media outlets do have to pay a fee to print the "official" results while a match report is in essence an opinion piece & my bar-room law degree would suggest that as such it is not covered under IP law.

i worked as a sports journalist and covered europa league/CL and i can tell newspapers pay nothing to print the results, tables... so there has to be something else there.

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Well there is the factor of it being a organising body with within, not much about how those groups are run & protect their interests makes sense.

Al I know is that SI do not have permission to use the real life results, tweeting Miles might be the only way to get a reason why licensing is the issue because even as a former employee of SI that level of detail is not something that was ever disclosed.

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I'm not aware of results being copyrighted however, fixtures certainly are. Last I heard to repost a fixture list from the Premier League (for example) it had jumped up to £5,000. :eek:

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I do not see a contradiction, the post above his was referring to how fake results are used when international qualifiers started in the previous season to that FM's release, the nations in the various groups is always correct.

The reason this is not done for Continental competitions is that the start date for most leagues in FM tend to be before or just after the first qualifying round of those competitions & the assumption is that close to 100% of FM'ers will want to play those fixtures. I'm sure there are West Ham & Southampton fans who are looking forward to putting right what went wring in Europa League qualifying & many other fans of club across Europe who failed to make the group stage of either club competition.

So now you contradict him again - he said that the real groups are not used because of licensing, full stop. You are saying it is for gameplay reasons.

If it is for gameplay, then nothing should change for most players - of course those Southampton fans should have their chance to fix qualifying. What I suggested is an option. Just a checkbox, similar to "Lock summer transfers" - "Lock real life continental groups". Off by default, but some people would turn it on.

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What is the point when the results will mostly all be different anyway? I've no idea why people get so hung up on such insignificant stuff.

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So now you contradict him again - he said that the real groups are not used because of licensing, full stop. You are saying it is for gameplay reasons.

If it is for gameplay, then nothing should change for most players - of course those Southampton fans should have their chance to fix qualifying. What I suggested is an option. Just a checkbox, similar to "Lock summer transfers" - "Lock real life continental groups". Off by default, but some people would turn it on.

I'm really not seeing where I'm contradicting anyone, unless of course you want to manipulate words in such a way as to create a contradiction.

1. The reason real Champions League match data is not used is down to SI not having a license to do so, this is also why the competition has a different name.

2. Even if the competition was licensed to be accurately represented in the game the fact that having the results of matches that depending on your start date haven't happened in the game universe hard coded so that in essence if you start in July a match that is scheduled for August has already taken place is unlikely to appeal to the majority of FM'ers & as such is not worth investing any valuable time or resources on it.

The fact that #2 is the business decision that would be taken does not contradict the fact that #1 is true.

As I said earlier if you want more information on why real results are not used you'll have to tweet Miles or the FM/SI accounts.

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