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polist4ever_andrey

Problems with youth intake. Questions

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Hi guys, first of all, i'm sorry if i didnt posted where it must.

I have a problem with youth intake and i need your help to make me understand why this happens. I am Liverpool manager in 2021. I invested in staff and facilities and now i have the best facilities http://imgur.com/pVVU3i3, I have best coaches in the world for every section http://imgur.com/H4pLQLp, I have best youth coaches in the word http://imgur.com/3lljid6 and the results in every ****ing year (2015-2021) of youth intake is this: http://imgur.com/LOpQBT6 ... best potential player is decent Premier League or good Premier League ...

WHY ??? Other clubs receive greater potential players and have poor facilities in comparision with my clubs. Where i did wrong ??? Please help me because i dont understand why ?!?!?!

Thanks in advance to all of you who really will help me with advice

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A lot of the youth intake is down to luck. Facilities & staff maybe increase the chances you get good players they are no guarantee.

If you are getting players who have the potential to be "Good Premier League" players you are doing fairly well.

The PA stars you see are only estimated and only staff opinions, it can take six months-1 year to get a true reflection of the staffs' opinion and even then it can be wrong. If you are throwing players out/judging them on that one screen then you are making a mistake.

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@Cougar: I am not throwing players out until they have 19y

I just instaled fm genie scout just to research the problem and i found this: http://imgur.com/8EmeOI4

The players with "Liverpool" is the best players i received from youth intake (from 2015-2020) and the players with "-" is the best players i just received in 2021. You can see that even with top facilities and best possible coaches i didnt receive any world class player in all of those years. There must be an explanation here. I cannot believe that I'm the unluckiest guy. It is something out of luck I do wrong

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You have to ask yourself what world class players have Liverpool, Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea or Arsenal produced in real life the last 10 years?

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That's not too bad. A 160 PA + player from England is quite rare. At a guess there's maybe a couple pr year at an average?

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England's youth PA is around 130 I believe. So you have produced 'top' talent for that nation. 150-160 CA is usually more than enough to be a top tier player in the Premier League, 130+ is also fine.

Really though, a professional 120CA fully trained, with decent attributes player is going to blow away any 160+ player who has a poor attribute spread and personality. You really shouldn't get hung up on the CA/PA ratings, but focus on the attributes themselves.

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Over a 5-6 year period, your youth academy has unearthed 10-12 players with potential good enough to become, key, first team, rotation or backup players for the Premier League. I can't see your "problem" at all, I'm afraid. You have done good. There are plenty of PL teams with good cause to be quite jealous of that tally.

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realistically, there's 2 (or 3, but GKs are more risky) players that could appear regularly for you without an issue there (Anderson, J Smith and Brogger)

and all of those players should at least be competent of playing regular games for you when they fully develop (if you train them right)

if you debate the data issues, then you'll find that that a 150CA is a 'great player for the premier league' - Fabregas is around the 150-165 mark IIRC

a regular prem journeyman (I remember Rob Green of note) got given a CA of around the 135 mark (and he got called up for England at some points)

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The PA stars you see are only estimated and only staff opinions

And the stars are relative to the players in your squad already. If you already have top class players, then a 2.5* or 3* potential youth player is likely to become top class himself.

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Where is this magic youth intake with 2.5 or 3 star intake?

I get 15 half star players every year, for 6 years now. I let the staff handle contract extensions with them, but so far 95% or more end up retiring from football at the end of their spell with us.

It's weird though, the first few years wasn't so bad, 12 players on the England national team has status as grown in my club and England is now the best national team in the world, but the pool has completely dried up this past 5-6 years of this long term save, to make it even worse my scouts is not finding anything in the world I can buy.

Currently doing a reload of year 2025 youth generation, just to see if it's bad luck, but no, it simply only generates those 15ish half star players 1-5 can be 1, 1½ or one 2 star player, reload after reload and there is no 150 or 135 PA's.

My main problem is why my HoYD bring in those 15 players that isn't even good enough to waste money on training, since I've never sold a single one of these losers, complete waste of club finances.

In the real world it might be accurate that they get that many useless players, but since the game can't emulate the real world in that regard and we know these players is useless, why bother wasting CPU time on generating them?

If I could at least get 1 star players as minimum, so I at least could have some fun developing those and selling them to lower league clubs.

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Where is this magic youth intake with 2.5 or 3 star intake?

I get 15 half star players every year, for 6 years now. I let the staff handle contract extensions with them, but so far 95% or more end up retiring from football at the end of their spell with us.

It's weird though, the first few years wasn't so bad, 12 players on the England national team has status as grown in my club and England is now the best national team in the world, but the pool has completely dried up this past 5-6 years of this long term save, to make it even worse my scouts is not finding anything in the world I can buy.

Currently doing a reload of year 2025 youth generation, just to see if it's bad luck, but no, it simply only generates those 15ish half star players 1-5 can be 1, 1½ or one 2 star player, reload after reload and there is no 150 or 135 PA's.

My main problem is why my HoYD bring in those 15 players that isn't even good enough to waste money on training, since I've never sold a single one of these losers, complete waste of club finances.

In the real world it might be accurate that they get that many useless players, but since the game can't emulate the real world in that regard and we know these players is useless, why bother wasting CPU time on generating them?

If I could at least get 1 star players as minimum, so I at least could have some fun developing those and selling them to lower league clubs.

If you're concentrating on star ratings immediately, you're wasting your time. Your staff won't be 100% accurate for players that young, just arriving from the academy. Unless you're seeing the actual PA number?

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I recently got a half star player from the youth academy (Save now deleted or i'd screenshot) his stats suggested better ability/potential. I tutored him and worked on his weakness and after 4 seasons he was a 3.5 star player (Due to people leaving etc) and he became a world class international

Don't judge them too soon

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If you're concentrating on star ratings immediately, you're wasting your time. Your staff won't be 100% accurate for players that young, just arriving from the academy. Unless you're seeing the actual PA number?

Repeating what I wrote first in my post: I get 15 half star players every year, for 6 years now. I let the staff handle contract extensions with them, but so far 95% or more end up retiring from football at the end of their spell with us.

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Repeating what I wrote first in my post: I get 15 half star players every year, for 6 years now. I let the staff handle contract extensions with them, but so far 95% or more end up retiring from football at the end of their spell with us.

How long is a spell?

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I recently got a half star player from the youth academy (Save now deleted or i'd screenshot) his stats suggested better ability/potential. I tutored him and worked on his weakness and after 4 seasons he was a 3.5 star player (Due to people leaving etc) and he became a world class international

Don't judge them too soon

I know that feeling

I released a ~160PA youth intake because he wasn't rated that well (back in FM11 now)

and then took a peak at the PA and wanted him back

he wouldn't discus terms, because I terminated his trial, and then ended up joining Spurs

now everyone gets at least a one year contract so I can look at them, then they only get retained if they show something (assistant reports)

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It looks like you're expecting too much, and not looking at what you are getting. Surely some have good stats, and are able to be mouled into good players.

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if i remember to (at its not that often) i'll save the game just before the youth intake date and keep reloading that savegame until i get one regen with 4 stars. it can take several hours before ones comes in (i'll do it while also watching tv etc, i dont just sit there in front of FM ;) ).

I do this because like polist4ever_andrey i have the best possible facilities and coaching staff, and i deserve at least one word class player for the millions & millions I invest each year.

I havent noticed a player in my youth squad suddenly grow out of nowhere so i dont really agree with whats been suggested above. I think it may have happened once or twice to me in fm14 or fm13, where a player i released for being poor ends up as a top international.

I have world class players in every position in the first team squad and that doesnt really effect the quality or position of the regens. simple fact is that its all just luck IMO.

another thing i notice is that +90% of the 4* regens i see are AM's, who also happen to be under 6 foot. I've yet to see a decent striker in all my fm15 savegames come through my youth team.

one thing that does help is to have foreign owners. At forest we have Kuwaiti owners and i get Kuwaiti regens each year. along with the usual feeder club affiliations you can ask the board for.

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i have the best possible facilities and coaching staff, and i deserve at least one word class player for the millions & millions I invest each year.

No you don't. You really don't.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with you reloading to get good regens as everyone can play the game the way they want. But to say that your youth setup should guarantee you a world class player every year is just wrong.

Of course having a great setup increases the chances that your club will catch the biggest talents out there, but even Barcelona or Arsenal don't have a world class player coming through their own ranks every year IRL...

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No you don't. You really don't.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with you reloading to get good regens as everyone can play the game the way they want. But to say that your youth setup should guarantee you a world class player every year is just wrong.

Of course having a great setup increases the chances that your club will catch the biggest talents out there, but even Barcelona or Arsenal don't have a world class player coming through their own ranks every year IRL...

I guess I overrated world class, i really mean 1st team worthy

but,how do you know about Arsenal? a 14/15/16 year old isn't going to make the news as a world class prospect IRL Wenger and his staff might think they do and when they reach 18/19... thats when they may get a first team shot.

As a Forest fan I see them produce a premiership quality player every few years as do other championship clubs, but playing FM i dont get the same quality of youth players in the game as a whole. the longer you play a FM savegame you see the quality of the national teams drop like a stone once the real players retire and they are filled with regens.

What i would like if for all the regens to have their PA stats hidden for a season or 2. the whole visibility of a PA rating is flawed IMO anyway, I much preferred to play FM/Champ Man when you didnt see it, as its not as if you can 100% see it IRL is it?

going back to FM though as its a programmed game you should benefit from having the top rated youth system. After 15 seasons i would expect to come across a 'Man Utd class of 92' or a Barcelona, Ajax golden generation.. I only get one or 2 quality regens and thats if i reload that savegame again and again. in FM14 it was just about possible to scout the world for regens and sign a load of teenagers, but I havent been able to do that in FM15. I hope that FM16 will change the regen balance as each FM/CM can be wildly different

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PA is always hidden, unless you are using the in-game editor. Don't confuse the star ratings with CA / PA.

I also think you are expecting too much from your youth system if you think you should get at least one star player or "1st team worthy" player every season. I can't think of a single club where that happens - not even Barcelona.

Do they get a lot of good players coming through? Yes. Every single year? No. Are Man Utd full of budding stars / first team players, each one year younger than the next? Arsenal? Bayern? Ajax?

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I guess I overrated world class, i really mean 1st team worthy

Fair enough. ;)

but,how do you know about Arsenal?

I don't, of course, but if they do produce that many quality players then why doesn't their team consist only of their own youth products?

What i would like if for all the regens to have their PA stats hidden for a season or 2. the whole visibility of a PA rating is flawed IMO anyway, I much preferred to play FM/Champ Man when you didnt see it, as its not as if you can 100% see it IRL is it?

Like herne79 said, unless you're using one of the cheating tools out there PA is always hidden for all players, including your own.

going back to FM though as its a programmed game you should benefit from having the top rated youth system.

You do. You are much more likely to produce quality players at Barcelona or Ajax than you are at Blackpool or Aldershot. What you are asking for simply isn't realistic.

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I was also a little disappointed with my youth intake in my last save, so I pulled some data for two years of youth intakes for EPL teams into a spreadsheet. I've made it public here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jib73uhBOmYufpbZwl3-kSDFIURvrl-5ErUjoWeplhQ/edit?usp=sharing

The short version is that very few teams get good regens. In the two years that I looked at, there were only two regens over 160, and fourteen over 150. Chelsea has by far the best intakes: half of the 150+ regens went to Chelsea. Interestingly, they are the only EPL team with a 5* reputation, which perhaps guarantees them the bulk of the good regens from London?

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I was also a little disappointed with my youth intake in my last save, so I pulled some data for two years of youth intakes for EPL teams into a spreadsheet. I've made it public here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jib73uhBOmYufpbZwl3-kSDFIURvrl-5ErUjoWeplhQ/edit?usp=sharing

The short version is that very few teams get good regens. In the two years that I looked at, there were only two regens over 160, and fourteen over 150. Chelsea has by far the best intakes: half of the 150+ regens went to Chelsea. Interestingly, they are the only EPL team with a 5* reputation, which perhaps guarantees them the bulk of the good regens from London?

I see 29 players there capable of being a regular in the premiership for side in the lower half

9 of them that could be leading prem players

and 1 of which could be a golden ball nominee

notes: under AI management, not the user as they can customise it to their liking

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i can accept what you are all saying back, but if the game allows you to further extend the youth recruitment beyond the level that the clubs are already at IRL then the game should reward you for that and not just leave it heavily to chance still.

its not as if i produce 2 or 3 players that are championship quality instead each year (with my top rated youth setup), which the top teams do already IRL. i just get a bunch of kids that dont even make it as a pro full stop. then if i'm lucky I may get one or two good players if I persevere with reloading my savegame

IRL Chelsea, Arsenal etc will send out several players on loan to championship clubs. granted very few will make it into their parent clubs' XI but they are still good enough for the 2nd tier and to command a decent transfer fee.

If i have the best youth setup in the game (which i have had for several seasons) i have only produced 6 current premiership players (not all still at my club). AND thats only when I have reloaded my savegame. only 1 has sneaked though first time of asking.

I should be at least matching the youth intake of real life top clubs, its as if the improvements are just cosmetic and the game is still rating me at the same level from when i started playing, as a mid table championship club.

I'd love to be able to copy the Southampton model that we are seeing IRL and be able to push though youth talent each year

also has anyone else noticed it they get more AM's than any other position?

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Reloading or not, producing 6 current premiership players from Forest's youth set up starting point is a good return.

If you have now had the best youth set up in the game for several seasons, you must be quite far into the future? How is your club and staff reputation? How do you compare to other high rep clubs, all of whom will still be attracting top youth talent?

One other thing, how are you judging whether your youth intake are any good or not? You mentioned their PA earlier, but you can't see PA (unless you use the in game editor) - are you just looking at the star ratings?

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I'm judging by the star rating and the look of their stats - i havent bothered with a real game editor or FM scout.

i know the stars arent a great indicator but they are good enough. I always hire admin (DoV, Head of Youth etc...) staff with +18 for judging potential attributes. if you spend hours (like sad old me) reloading the savegame to reproduce the regens you will see that 5* players do exist and i'm normally happy to see a 3&1/2* or 4* come in. sometimes it occurs first time other times it can be on the +30th attempt. I've never had a player higher than 4* at my club. Bayern get a 5* wonderkid every 3 years or so (they are my unofficial feeder team ;) )

basically my management style is geared around youth dev as i've always wanted to be as self sufficient as possible. Once the real players are staring to retire and i'm signing regens, they may as well be my regens. And now i'm england manager i first try to just poach all the best young english players when i do sign players

I'm 12 years into this current savegame. 4 times champions league winners, 6 premier league... so my club status is up there

from day one the chairman agree to invest in youth dev, so thats been upgraded whenever possible/necessary as its in my contract/club philosophies. I did have them downgraded due to technological advances which lowered my ranking but that was soon upgraded again. plus a new stadium - The Brian Clough Arena

i have youth recruitment affiliations in several countries (off the top of my head in Brazil, France, Ireland, Asia...)

the youth coaches and head of youth dev are continental or world class with all but a handful with the top coaching badges.

Leonardo is my DoV

Chelsea, Arsenal & Man U seem to churn out the majority of young English talent, as you'd expect, but my facilities, staff & status etc have left them standing for several seasons now, yet I don't see this reflected in the regens.

I know all this is old news with FM16 on its way, but its something that never seems to get fixed. I've played FM/CM since the first edition in '93, so i know all about the previous regen bugs and balancing issues. back in one of my Roma savegames in FM13 that was the last time i came close to being pretty self sufficient.

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Do you look at the scout / coach reports? They should tell you a bit more and give you more of an idea :).

Below is one of my latest regens, he is "only" 3 star PA (top right). Apart from pace and tackling, his stats are so so and with his size if you fart near him he'll fall over, but if you check the report it says "Potential to be a star Premier League left-back". I kept him.

2w32qtd.png

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Sounds like he wants to be able to take best regens from all of England and recruit the best regens the game has to offer...

If your team is super then your regens aren't going to be judge super because the stars are given out based on the quality on the team.

Like in the pick above, it says he has potential to be a star premier player at only 3 stars but I bet that same player would have more stars if his surrounding teammates sucked.

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I don't see a lot wrong with the guy in 28

attributes:

tackling/ first touch/ passing/ acceleration/ pace are all already good enough to give him a few games (might be risky playing as Arsenal, but maybe a cup game or two - especially with the lack of quality DLs you have other than your top 2)

scout report:

scouts already like his potential,

plus there are no major concerns over him (ALL 15 yos are inconsistent)

and his jumping is a little suspect (although you'd expect that for a growing 15yo that's 160cm) - he'll probably peak at around 175-185cm, and that'll be competent for jumping reach

might be worth fine-tuning a few of his backup attributes (crossing) but should see some good growth over the next couple of years, to hopefully be a first teamer by the time he's 18-20

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Bear in mind that in real life many of the so called home grown players were acquired just as their older multi-million-saga counterparts, by scouting and buying. Use the public knowledge of the regen dates and scout every fresh youth intake in the world (yes, every single one). This way you never miss a true star player, and even if they don´t want to join you at the time of their entering the frame, you can still save them for later.

And if you by chance convince an english youngster with 16 years of age barely a month after joining their "breed"-club and raise him to a world-class international, who would say he is not a product of your academy?

Also, I have many players with 2 stars who mostly sit on the bench and still make tremendous impact, just because they are with the club their entire professional career, whereas if I am forced to buy a rotation/backup player for a position with the same star rating, they simply fail - no matter how many years you give them. 

So my advice would be, not to discard these players, they are the most loyal and consistent ones, and these are the most important attributes for a backup player.

Oh my, I just realized, this is a 2 year old thread. Is still anyone playing this version apart from me obviously?

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As Nobby_McDonald said regens stars affected from the squad players you have now..They aren't bad regens your squad now is very good..Actually i dont take care too much about my regens stars i see their stats and if those are good thats enough for me,you could try have "shorter" squad and then you will have youth intake with more "stars" ...:brock:

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Another thing to keep in mind is regens' potential can go up considerably after you've had them for a while. Just this year I'm halfway through the first season and a couple of the youth in my squad who were 1.5 -2 star potential are 3-3.5 star potential now. I guess sometimes a player makes huge progress in training and then their potential goes up. So keep an eye on it you might be surprised by the changes. 

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For the ones who are looking only at the ratings at the intake day, then please take a look at a post i wrote for FM17 not long ago:

To give a short recap:

I was managing a rather poor Swiss side and had a youngster come through with 2(3) stars potential in the intake, but I kept him because I was doing a youth challenge and he had a good personality and determination. Some years later he was one of the best players in my squad and was capped for Albania at the age of 19. Now, he might not become a super talented player for a Premiership club, but I was very close to not signing him.

A couple of versions ago, I think it was FM16 or FM15, I didn't sign a player and had no idea he was picked up by another club before I got a lot of millions of pounds because Real Madrid had bought him for £60M and my club got some percent because we were his first club! I looked back an he had a PA of 1 star. A single one. That's why I always sign players with good personality and I take a good look at every player and make my own assessment of them.

Why do this sometimes happen? Because your coaches and their rating is not necessarily 100% correct, even if they have perfect stats they won't give you a correct assessment of every player at once. It can take up to a year before the coach have a good perception of the player. Besides, a player don't need a PA of over 190 to be an amazing player. A good balanced player of CA 150 might play a whole lot better than a poorly stat'ed player of CA 170. It depends on how is skills are placed and if the tactics suit him. A big lumpy slow striker will never be good at running behind the defense, even though his CA might be extremely high.

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21 minutes ago, puffascruffowitz said:

Another thing to keep in mind is regens' potential can go up considerably after you've had them for a while. Just this year I'm halfway through the first season and a couple of the youth in my squad who were 1.5 -2 star potential are 3-3.5 star potential now. I guess sometimes a player makes huge progress in training and then their potential goes up. So keep an eye on it you might be surprised by the changes. 

Its not that they make progress in training its just that your staff have a better understanding of them.

As you've noticed in the first year after joining this can change significantly.

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Every year (of buying the game) I usually end up with 1 world class player after building my youth facilities up. I play 20 seasons or so. 

 

FM17 I have just got my first potential world class player, a right back, typically just as FM18 is starting. FM15 I got a 5 star striker in the first generation of regens.

It's luck, just like in real life. But I think there are other factors.

No matter how much I build my club, league or countries reputation, there are certain clubs who will always get better and more regens. Currently that seems to be Arsenal, Spurs, Man City and Man Utd.

Which reflects real life, no doubt, but you should be able to build your club to the same level.

It would be nice to see a bit more detail in junior coacing, like building a "La Maison" style academy, or hiring lots of youth scouts or coaches, or at least something to enhance your chances of getting players before they are generated as a regen.

In real life these clubs are hoovering up all the 8-14 year old talent which is why they get better players, we should be able to get in on that.

Regens are a HUGE part of the game for the long term savers like me, we could do with a bit more detail.

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nothing is wrong with youth intake. just did a test save,    after first intake the save had 9 players at 180 pa and 3 of the nine were in the EPL. Man u, Chelsea and Leicester . there are 40 at 170 and above scattered around the save. 

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31 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

Its not that they make progress in training its just that your staff have a better understanding of them.

As you've noticed in the first year after joining this can change significantly.

Ok that makes sense. I notice the players that had their potential change were growing very quickly just from training so I figured that was it. 

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Dunno about PA, but I'd wager that people should read up on the youth development topics done over the years.

 

At a club like Manchester united, you can easily end up with 5-6 first teamers within two seasons, especially if you tutor them and get them training any weaknesses straight off the bat. I regularly pull the kids 18-20 into backup slots, sometimes I've shifted out players the quality of Mata (etc) just to make room for the kids because a second one has popped up in that position and can now be a backup. Star ratings mean nothing, check the attributes, start the development, a lot of them will surprise you. Reloading immediately to get a 'good star rating' to me is pointless, you've killed off entire youth intakes on arrival just for a magic star rating instead of developing those youths into world beaters. That's the travesty here in my opinion. ;_;

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