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FM16 tactics screen discussion

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I wasn't amazed with tactic screen presented earlier this week. Yesterday I watched Miles video and I found it quite interesting. I understand and appreciate the concept, however something he said just wasn't right :) "We changed from shirts to boxes because we needed extra space for extra functionality". . I have come up with very quick mockup (2 hours in Photoshop/Illustrator), hopefully to demonstrate that you can still incorporate shirts within tactic screen. No offence, but these boxes are just awful, especially fading out black stripes...bleh. So to keep it short, in bullet points :)

  • I kept exact dimensions of your boxes
  • Replaced poor grapefruit slice with easy to understand, clear to read bar
  • Left side of the number - space reserved for icons (yellow cards, injury)
  • Bottom part of the box - I feel distinction between position and role should not be presented by hyphen. I came up with slightly lighter background - Easier on the eyes, clearer.
  • I tried not to mess with colours too much, although I think chosen colours for goalkeeper, defence, midfield, attack (bottom part of the box) are unfortunate, especially midfield and attack (dull grey and washed out purple)
  • I noticed pitch dimensions are out of proportions, so I placed proportional pitch in. Not the greatest image, I know. I just copy-pasted from Google search, serves the purpose.
  • I am not sure about divider between player name and position/role. It is green bar for all players except Nightingale and Barcham - sort of yellowish for these two. What does it represent exactly?

Obviously it is just a very quick mockup, not finished work by any means. Hope it helps somebody in SI creative department :) Looking forward to FM16!

fm16_tactics_screen_mockup.jpg

Now this is much better, good job.

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Well done vpaulus, And the kits on the tactics screen can be the actual kits that we see on the team overview screen.

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FM14 was best for me, because i love to have as much information as possible in one screen. FM15 tactic screen made it worse for me. I couldnt play it for more than like 10 hours total and moved back to fm14. Was hoping for fm16, after that screen i guess i will staa with fm14 for one more year

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I wasn't amazed with tactic screen presented earlier this week. Yesterday I watched Miles video and I found it quite interesting. I understand and appreciate the concept, however something he said just wasn't right :) "We changed from shirts to boxes because we needed extra space for extra functionality". . I have come up with very quick mockup (2 hours in Photoshop/Illustrator), hopefully to demonstrate that you can still incorporate shirts within tactic screen. No offence, but these boxes are just awful, especially fading out black stripes...bleh. So to keep it short, in bullet points :)

  • I kept exact dimensions of your boxes
  • Replaced poor grapefruit slice with easy to understand, clear to read bar
  • Left side of the number - space reserved for icons (yellow cards, injury)
  • Bottom part of the box - I feel distinction between position and role should not be presented by hyphen. I came up with slightly lighter background - Easier on the eyes, clearer.
  • I tried not to mess with colours too much, although I think chosen colours for goalkeeper, defence, midfield, attack (bottom part of the box) are unfortunate, especially midfield and attack (dull grey and washed out purple)
  • I noticed pitch dimensions are out of proportions, so I placed proportional pitch in. Not the greatest image, I know. I just copy-pasted from Google search, serves the purpose.
  • I am not sure about divider between player name and position/role. It is green bar for all players except Nightingale and Barcham - sort of yellowish for these two. What does it represent exactly?

Obviously it is just a very quick mockup, not finished work by any means. Hope it helps somebody in SI creative department :) Looking forward to FM16!

fm16_tactics_screen_mockup.jpg

awesome stuff, thanks for effort making this. Really like it, hope developers will listen.

*edit* are you by any chance that Panzer Corps guy from Slitherine forums?

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awesome stuff, thanks for effort making this. Really like it, hope developers will listen.

*edit* are you by any chance that Panzer Corps guy from Slitherine forums?

Sadi K. ‏@sadi_kule Sep 11

@milesSI @designByMully thanks for the video Miles - which I also requested -but still think that the same func can also be done with shirts

Miles Jacobson ‏@milesSI Sep 11

@sadi_kule @designByMully it can't. We tried it. Didn't work well at all. Hence the zoomed in shirts.

As said before, a concept drawing isn't the same as a working piece. It's not like they haven't actually tried...

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I don't like the look of it so much, but after Miles' short video I appreciate it a bit more. If I am honest, I never like too much change with the UI and there is always a learning curve with each new version. I expect (for myself and a lot of others) it will become comfortable and liked well enough after enough time is spent with it. Would I have used the boxes vs the shirts? Probably not, but it isn't the worst thing I've ever seen either.

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I'm not a designer and have never claimed to be, but just to clarify from the mock-up vpaulus has put on here - what is the actual benefit from having the shirt within the square? Wouldn't the position of the shirt now misrepresent where the player is positioned on the pitch? Because the shirts now are all aligned to the left, the user could look at it and think given how it's always been (with the shirt representing where they were positioned) that they're being positioned incorrectly?

Essentially you've made more space to add the shirt which doesn't contain any further useful information on this screen? The user is already aware of what colour their shirt would be in the current in-game design - what benefit does having the shirt here have? Do people just think it makes that much more of a difference cosmetically? Not saying that vpaulus's design is better or worse than the current one in game, I'm just trying to gauge why people do seem to prefer it.

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I'm just trying to gauge why people do seem to prefer it.

For my part and I imagine I speak for a least a few others, it is purely aesthetic. The new screen looks blocky and clunky- as someone pointed out earlier "FM meets minecraft." The added functionality that Miles showed off is quite nice, and for me that makes up for some of the lack of aesthetic appeal.

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A couple of questions:

1) Has "fitness" been renamed "sharpness" or are they different concepts?

2) Will condition and fitness/sharpness only be available in the little circular icon or can we still view them as percentages?

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The translucent background behind the shirt on vpaulus' mockup is a nice touch & takes away the brick like look that the 16 screen appears to be going for or maybe that's ended up with. The video does suggest that the new layout will be less fiddly in terms of getting the pointer contract spot on to open up sub-menus so it's just a matter of whether the improved functionality more than makes up for what is lost in terms of a cleaner form.

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Four (4) pages complaining for icons nobody but SI Staff seen and used, over a single low resolution image.

I'm waiting for the day people will start complaining for the title of the game. Sadly, at the moment it doesn't seem that far.

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Four (4) pages complaining for icons nobody but SI Staff seen and used, over a single low resolution image.

I'm waiting for the day people will start complaining for the title of the game. Sadly, at the moment it doesn't seem that far.

I blame the internet.

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do fm 15 downloaded tactics work with fm 16

Not that this thread is the place for this question, but no, they won't if you mean importing them in. Maybe if you re-create them and they don't take advantage of a match engine exploit that no longer works.

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I don't like the look of it so much, but after Miles' short video I appreciate it a bit more. If I am honest, I never like too much change with the UI and there is always a learning curve with each new version. I expect (for myself and a lot of others) it will become comfortable and liked well enough after enough time is spent with it. Would I have used the boxes vs the shirts? Probably not, but it isn't the worst thing I've ever seen either.

I'm leaning on the other side. Not entirely fussed over the zoomed in shirts. How the interactions work (which will have to wait for a playable demo) will be the crux for me. Neither the best nor worst thing for me, but then I'm mostly interesting in the interactivity and information on the screen

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I appreciate Miles' commitment to make a video explaining the tactics screen, kudos to him for that.

However, I'm far from convinced. Most of the arguments used have been discussed before and they do not provide a conclusion.

The truth of things is, this screen is more and more clattered with info year after year, and it's becoming a big mess.

All the information we can see in the video was already present in FM14, but it was so much neater because you had dropdown menus to see specific columns. You know, we can click panels to see what we want, instead of having everything in the same place when it's not information that is directly related to one another.

The 'players overlapping', 'squares instead of shirts', 'donuts for match sharpness' arguments do not add anything new to our game, it was all there in FM14!

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Do people just think it makes that much more of a difference cosmetically?

YES!! Very much so!

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I like vpaulus screen much more than officially announced one too. It's far from perfect, but his 2 hours are MUCH better than what SI professional designers did for the past year.

And this fact scares me, tbh.

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I like vpaulus screen much more than officially announced one too. It's far from perfect, but his 2 hours are MUCH better than what SI professional designers did for the past year.

And this fact scares me, tbh.

One is a fully functioning piece. The other is a photoshop concept, thats also missing two pieces of information

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One is a fully functioning piece. The other is a photoshop concept, thats also missing two pieces of information

Whatever. It looks better.

Anyway, that's about 5-6 more hours for him, having all the needed data at hand, to make it fully functional piece. 2-3 more days to polish, at worst.

Maybe all those people who are criticising these silly bricks are wrong. Maybe silly bricks are amazing and easy to use. But first impressions for most people are "WTF is this?".

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Whatever. It looks better.

Anyway, that's about 5-6 more hours for him, having all the needed data at hand.

Maybe all those people who are criticising these silly bricks are wrong. Maybe silly bricks are amazing and easy to use. But first impressions for most people are "WTF is this?".

The whatever is kind of critical though. If it didn't work it would be pointless.

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People need to wait until they actually play the demo/game before making their over zealous opinions.

The amount of factually incorrect information that people have sprouted on here that other people are infected with is hilarious. Let SI work away, I'm sure FM16 like FM15 will be another great instalment of the series.

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Whatever. It looks better.

Anyway, that's about 5-6 more hours for him, having all the needed data at hand, to make it fully functional piece. 2-3 more days to polish, at worst.

Maybe all those people who are criticising these silly bricks are wrong. Maybe silly bricks are amazing and easy to use. But first impressions for most people are "WTF is this?".

Seriously what the hell is wrong with all the people saying it looks better? How do you not understanding that IT WOULDN'T WORK WELL IF YOU PUT IT IN THE GAME?? Miles has been quoted saying this above, **** me!

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People are free to say it looks better as that is the direct comparison, nobody should be saying that vpaulus' mockup will work better because none of use have had a chance to use the new system & there might never be a working version of the mockup alternative.

Now that's been said please calm down & in the future do not swear. :thup:

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People need to wait until they actually play the demo/game before making their over zealous opinions.

People are making their "over zealous opinions" based on what they have shown. It would reduce criticism if SI deigned to make a presentation in high resolution and decent quality. But in this case, we saw low-res silly bricks in cheap tablet style. I'd say, outcome is quite expected.

The whatever is kind of critical though. If it didn't work it would be pointless.

I doubt that it's so hard and time-consuming to make good concept to work. Especially for those who do so for the past 15 years.

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People are making their "over zealous opinions" based on what they have shown. It would reduce criticism if SI deigned to make a presentation in high resolution and decent quality. But in this case, we saw low-res silly bricks in cheap tablet style. I'd say, outcome is quite expected.

I doubt that it's so hard and time-consuming to make good concept to work. Especially for those who do so for the past 15 years.

Sadi K. ‏@sadi_kule Sep 11

@milesSI @designByMully thanks for the video Miles - which I also requested -but still think that the same func can also be done with shirts

Miles Jacobson ‏@milesSI Sep 11

@sadi_kule @designByMully it can't. We tried it. Didn't work well at all. Hence the zoomed in shirts.

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People are free to say it looks better as that is the direct comparison, nobody should be saying that vpaulus' mockup will work better because none of use have had a chance to use the new system & there might never be a working version of the mockup alternative.

Now that's been said please calm down & in the future do not swear. :thup:

I'm not wound up, it's just baffling! People saying vpaulus has done more than SI in 2 hours and "whatever, it looks better". I just cant believe the ignorance/stubbornness and "I know better" attitude of some people.

Could never be a mod :D

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Sadi K. ‏@sadi_kule Sep 11

@milesSI @designByMully thanks for the video Miles - which I also requested -but still think that the same func can also be done with shirts

Miles Jacobson ‏@milesSI Sep 11

@sadi_kule @designByMully it can't. We tried it. Didn't work well at all. Hence the zoomed in shirts.

I saw this. He thinks that aesthetic can be sacrificed in favor of functionality. It's okay.

But in his 6 min video I (and many more people) did not see any real breakthrough in functionality which could justify those terrible bricks.

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I'm not wound up, it's just baffling! People saying vpaulus has done more than SI in 2 hours and "whatever, it looks better". I just cant believe the ignorance/stubbornness and "I know better" attitude of some people.

Could never be a mod :D

It did read as being a little angry at people but we'll let that go as tone never translates well in here, I do see what you're getting at though.

I have no doubt that there is a desktop folder at SI full of brilliant mockups that just didn't quiet work when put into practice, anyone who says that vpaulus' alternative is definitely better is fooling themselves. I think it looks better but that's it, I've said elsewhere that form & function go hand in hand but that they both end up compromising each other & that I trust SI will have the function nailed down as that is more important, to me at least.

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Yeah, caps and swearing - apologies!

Anyway, function over aesthetics for me any day. If it works well, you'll not notice the aesthetic drop after like 2 hours of playing, if that.

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I'm not a designer and have never claimed to be, but just to clarify from the mock-up vpaulus has put on here - what is the actual benefit from having the shirt within the square? Wouldn't the position of the shirt now misrepresent where the player is positioned on the pitch? Because the shirts now are all aligned to the left, the user could look at it and think given how it's always been (with the shirt representing where they were positioned) that they're being positioned incorrectly?

Essentially you've made more space to add the shirt which doesn't contain any further useful information on this screen? The user is already aware of what colour their shirt would be in the current in-game design - what benefit does having the shirt here have? Do people just think it makes that much more of a difference cosmetically? Not saying that vpaulus's design is better or worse than the current one in game, I'm just trying to gauge why people do seem to prefer it.

Finally, some constructive feedback here :)

  • Having shirt in is just pure aesthetics. In my opinion looks better than presented brick with fading out stripes.
  • Position of the shirt - fair enough it might be misleading at first. People will have to learn that whole unit represent player's position, not only the shirt
  • Units (player boxes) are exactly the same size like ones presented in the video. All reviled so far information/possible interactions are kept within the area.
  • And yes, I tried to make the difference cosmetically

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*edit* are you by any chance that Panzer Corps guy from Slitherine forums?

No, I am not, sorry :)

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The other is a photoshop concept, thats also missing two pieces of information

Does it now? Which ones exactly?

fm16_tactics_screen_thumb_2.jpg

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I never claimed I did a better job, I tried to present an alternative for SI to consider. I have to say, I am quite surprised by moderators furious response. Bashing all arguments, editing posts, deleting content. Only Neil Brock raised some good points, the rest is just like: "You silly sod, wait and see...". Fully functional interface became a pivoting point, while all I did was capturing one frame of the video. Of course I have no idea how fully functioning interface will work, nobody has at the moment. Therefore all I did might be useless garbage at the end. However, how you treat people trying to have a decent discussion is something you bosses might be considering when you ask for a raise :)

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Does it now? Which ones exactly?

fm16_tactics_screen_thumb_2.jpg

The match fitness and condition indicators, I assume.

I don't think anyone will disagree with the fact that yours looks better.

Functionality is an issue though.

- The shirts being offset is one.

- The bar you have for role suitability, while looking nicer, will be much more difficult for tablet/laptop users without a mouse to hover over and get a description of what the pie/bar means.

- It's not quite clear what needs clicking on to bring up the list of roles to select. Is it the shirt? The whole thing, including the transparent 'box' with the number maybe?

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I never claimed I did a better job, I tried to present an alternative for SI to consider. I have to say, I am quite surprised by moderators furious response. Bashing all arguments, editing posts, deleting content. Only Neil Brock raised some good points, the rest is just like: "You silly sod, wait and see...". Fully functional interface became a pivoting point, while all I did was capturing one frame of the video. Of course I have no idea how fully functioning interface will work, nobody has at the moment. Therefore all I did might be useless garbage at the end. However, how you treat people trying to have a decent discussion is something you bosses might be considering when you ask for a raise :)

I think you're misinterpreting the tone. None of the responses are 'furious'. They simply disagree with others. I don't see any edited posts and the only ones that were deleted were ones that was completely non-constructive.

One thing I did like about your representation was that the name was more distinguished, as if it's a different, clickable item (which it is) and both visually and functionally, that seems better to me.

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The match fitness and condition indicators, I assume.

I don't think anyone will disagree with the fact that yours looks better.

Functionality is an issue though.

- The shirts being offset is one.

- The bar you have for role suitability, while looking nicer, will be much more difficult for tablet/laptop users without a mouse to hover over and get a description of what the pie/bar means.

- It's not quite clear what needs clicking on to bring up the list of roles to select. Is it the shirt? The whole thing, including the transparent 'box' with the number maybe?

Thanks, good points here:

  • yes shirt being offset might be misleading but as I mentioned, once users will learn that whole box represent player positions, it shouldn't be a problem anymore. However, yep, it might need some adjustments.
  • At the moment both bar and pie are 10 point indicators, showing only one attribute. Are you saying users will be able to tap on the pie on tablets? In this case yes, bar size should be increased/revamped.
  • This is really open to discussion, depends on further interactions planned (bar, number). If these are not points of interaction, I would say whole thing.

One more thing - if SI is planning to make every single item in the box interactive it just might become difficult to navigate between such a little pieces. I might be totally wrong. HD resolution screens would help at this point :)

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Thanks, good points here:

  • yes shirt being offset might be misleading but as I mentioned, once users will learn that whole box represent player positions, it shouldn't be a problem anymore. However, yep, it might need some adjustments.
  • At the moment both bar and pie are 10 point indicators, showing only one attribute. Are you saying users will be able to tap on the pie on tablets? In this case yes, bar size should be increased/revamped.
  • This is really open to discussion, depends on further interactions planned (bar, number). If these are not points of interaction, I would say whole thing.

It doesn't sound like you've watched the video posted then?

This will answer the questions you posed about interaction with the 'boxes'.

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It doesn't sound like you've watched the video posted then?

This will answer the questions you posed about interaction with the 'boxes'.

Oh, but it did :) Still only one thing that comes to mind: Pie chart. When mouseoverd, it shows one attribute: Suitably for the role, which leads to another question: What is the function of the divider (thin color bar) between Player Name and Position/Role? As somebody mentioned above, is suppose to represent Suitability.

fm16_tactics_screen_thumb_3.jpg

Now this is something I call constructive discussion, at the end I might end with me loving the boxes :) Bit of the warning though - if this happens, I will comeback with another mockup, where the boxes will be treated better way graphically :) Again, thanks for substantive dialogue.

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I never claimed I did a better job, I tried to present an alternative for SI to consider. I have to say, I am quite surprised by moderators furious response. Bashing all arguments, editing posts, deleting content. Only Neil Brock raised some good points, the rest is just like: "You silly sod, wait and see...". Fully functional interface became a pivoting point, while all I did was capturing one frame of the video. Of course I have no idea how fully functioning interface will work, nobody has at the moment. Therefore all I did might be useless garbage at the end. However, how you treat people trying to have a decent discussion is something you bosses might be considering when you ask for a raise :)
*cough* I prefer your design & have said so.

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Oh, but it did :) Still only one thing that comes to mind: Pie chart. When mouseoverd, it shows one attribute: Suitably for the role, which leads to another question: What is the function of the divider (thin color bar) between Player Name and Position/Role? As somebody mentioned above, is suppose to represent Suitability.

The colour bar represents position suitability, so whether he is awkward/ineffectual/accomplished/natural/etc at CM/AML/etc. and the pie chart is role suitability within that position.

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it seems it will stay same - since someone asked gaffer Miles Jacobson & he says current one improves "usability": https://twitter.com/OllieDS/status/640923701958066176

I always liked Miles, but doesn't he realise how condescending his comments are?

SI always used to welcome feedback in the past. Yes, they may say "don't judge a book by its cover" and other things of that nature, and obviously they're not going to throw their UI colleagues under the bus but there's no need to get rude about it

[edit]

His posted video is much more like the Miles I remember, will have to see about the UI change but I think it will be fine

[/edit]

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I just don't get all this functionality comments. It's like older tactics screen UI weren't functioning :D

I don't know, but I had all that I need in FM15's tactic screen. I understand that you want to simplify the UI for newer users, but it just saves 2 clicks basically.

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There might be new functionality that once you use it you ask how you ever got by without it & reducing mouse actions or key strokes is always a worthwhile exercise.

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There might be, of course, we have to see it first. But I would hardly call using less mouse actions an exercise :D (I got the point, just kidding)

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It looks like the boxes resize when you put a lot of players in an area like 3 central midfielders. I wonder how vpaulus' mock up would work there as the shirt would have to shrink to fit and that might cause another issue with judging where abouts the player will physically be on the pitch.

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Also, vpaulus, it's easy for us to find fault in what you did, but it's still a good effort. You could give me a whole month and I wouldn't be able to come up with anything as good. :D

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I never claimed I did a better job, I tried to present an alternative for SI to consider. I have to say, I am quite surprised by moderators furious response. Bashing all arguments, editing posts, deleting content. Only Neil Brock raised some good points, the rest is just like: "You silly sod, wait and see...". Fully functional interface became a pivoting point, while all I did was capturing one frame of the video. Of course I have no idea how fully functioning interface will work, nobody has at the moment. Therefore all I did might be useless garbage at the end. However, how you treat people trying to have a decent discussion is something you bosses might be considering when you ask for a raise :)

Hey mate,

You deserve a praise without any doubt by providing an alternative design for a good intention. And yes, it looks a lot better than what SI provided. This is not only my idea; this is also what some other people at different platforms (Twitter, other forums) say. So thanks again, as I said earlier - I believe if I buy the game, the first thing for me would be finding a custom skin that reverts tactics screens to shirts. And custom skins will be very popular this year!

Regarding touchscreen compatibility, I think most user interfaces need to be designed completely different for touchscreens - therefore we thought the provided screenshot was for FMT. As we all know, design principles and the way user interacts with computer is completely different for tablets compared to PCs. So the one vpaulus provided is a brilliant design for desktop & can be easily adapted to touchscreens. So imo it does not make sense providing same user interface for both platforms.

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I bet that shirts will be back on FM17 and have no doubt about it. The question is, whether is it worth to stand by your decision for this version specifically, despite the discontent of community? I mean, we all know how this will end... It wasn't the best decision and it will be reverted sooner or later. No offence to SI, but c'mon... Shirts are one of the FM's "trademarks". Loosing them is like FM is loosing part of it's identity.

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