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FM16 - First thoughts on the early disclosures.

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I have given you an example above but also what if you want to change between roles during a match or between games and they are only designated to train in one role?

Well, the player will have a certain number of roles he'll be comfortable in already, and you'd be training him on another one. Or are you looking for players who would be natural in every position and every role? Not very realistic.

Like I say, I think you're only looking for this to be added because it's currently not there, rather than thinking properly through what it would actually achieve. Until such times as players have complete freedom to design their own roles, then adding this becomes something hardly anyone would ever use.

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Well, the player will have a certain number of roles he'll be comfortable in already, and you'd be training him on another one. Or are you looking for players who would be natural in every position and every role? Not very realistic.

Like I say, I think you're only looking for this to be added because it's currently not there, rather than thinking properly through what it would actually achieve. Until such times as players have complete freedom to design their own roles, then adding this becomes something hardly anyone would ever use.

As much as you're getting on my nerves I'm going to stay calm, you seem to love antagonising people on here. I specifically want it to train a young players physical attributes

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Well, the player will have a certain number of roles he'll be comfortable in already, and you'd be training him on another one. Or are you looking for players who would be natural in every position and every role? Not very realistic.

And what does the player being comfortable in his roles have to do with training a set a specific attributes? You seem to be going off into a world of your own with roles when I'm not even talking about roles specifically but attributes. I might want a limited full backs crossing to be better for when he does get a nose bleed.

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I have given you an example above but also what if you want to change between roles during a match or between games and they are only designated to train in one role?
AI'm not even talking about roles specifically

I don't see the need to get personal, or indeed why you think you need to, 'stay calm', I'm merely questioning why this would ever be needed.

To use your above example, if you have a limited full back that you wan't to train in crossing, then you can do this already alongside training him in another role, so what more do you want him to do?

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But you can't play a player outwith any of the preset roles. so there seems little point in doing this. It just seems like it's looking for a feature to be added purely for the reason that it isn't there at the moment. I understand this continuous desire to have complete freedom in the game, but if there's no real tangible benefit, it renders the feature superfluous at best.

If you were able to fully customise your own roles - which is a whole different discussion - then yes, this would be a feature with some end benefit. As it is though, it's not really all that worthwhile an addition.

In my opinion, of course.

Just because it's not listed as a "key attribute" for the role in game, doesn't mean it's not important, or you may want a few differences for how you want the player to play the role.

EDIT: Maybe you want a Trequartista, but like the player to be pacy, despite that not being an important attribute for the role apparently. Maybe you want your player training all of pace, acceleration, passing and shooting, but not any other attributes. It's definitely an idea with merit.

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Just because it's not listed as a "key attribute" for the role in game, doesn't mean it's not important, or you may want a few differences for how you want the player to play the role.

Do you have any specifics for this? Personally I think the key attributes for the roles are well matched in what a player should concentrate on. Sure, there might be one or two other attributes you might like to bolster, but you have the ability to do this already.

Listen, I'm not saying it's a terrible idea, it's not. Given full freedom with a player's position and role, then it would be a natural feature to be requested. As the game is right now, as much as it might sound like a nice thing to have in theory, the benefits would be negligible at best.

That's all. Didn't want to start WW3 about it, just a counter opinion.

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I didn't think this was WW3, as much as discussing the idea...

I like my CM(a)'s to be able to head the ball, and have good vision too, that 's one offhand.

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I didn't think this was WW3, as much as discussing the idea...

I like my CM(a)'s to be able to head the ball, and have good vision too, that 's one offhand.

Not only that, but you might have a player that is deficient in a couple of areas that are hampering his usefulness- they might not be what the game thinks are critical attributes for the position or role, but I don't care what the game thinks.

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Not only that, but you might have a player that is deficient in a couple of areas that are hampering his usefulness- they might not be what the game thinks are critical attributes for the position or role, but I don't care what the game thinks.

Fair enough, but where does it stop? If you give a user carte blanche to train a player on however many attributes you want, surely everybody would tick every attribute - A quick and easy way to improve a player quickly without putting any thought into it.

Nah, as the game is currently set up, that part of it is fine as it is. I'm a big believer in leaving well alone things that work well in the game.

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Not only that, but you might have a player that is deficient in a couple of areas that are hampering his usefulness- they might not be what the game thinks are critical attributes for the position or role, but I don't care what the game thinks.

Exactly!

Fair enough, but where does it stop? If you give a user carte blanche to train a player on however many attributes you want, surely everybody would tick every attribute - A quick and easy way to improve a player quickly without putting any thought into it.

Nah, as the game is currently set up, that part of it is fine as it is. I'm a big believer in leaving well alone things that work well in the game.

Too wide a spread in training like that would leave a very balanced player, but one who's not especially good at anything. Perhaps some people want a player like that?

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* Better youth developement, head of youth dev seems irrelevant. Maybe more purpose to him and more interaction, insight into future newgens (under 16s)

* Own academies abroad to develop and bring players through instead of partnerships with affiliates?

The above!!! Definitely! Two areas/things ive wanted to see improved for years!

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* Ass Man should use your tactics in friendlies

He does that already - if you remember to tell him to... ;)

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Fair enough, but where does it stop? If you give a user carte blanche to train a player on however many attributes you want, surely everybody would tick every attribute

The idea would be the less you pick the quicker they get better at them to a degree, or something along those lines.

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He does that already - if you remember to tell him to... ;)

It doesn't seem to work for me although I know it says it in the responsibilities section.

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Fair enough, but where does it stop? If you give a user carte blanche to train a player on however many attributes you want, surely everybody would tick every attribute - A quick and easy way to improve a player quickly without putting any thought into it.

I would say that isn't valid only because the more attributes you train, the less they improve as the time training is divided among all attributes you train. You could tick them all, and see next to zero benefit. You're right the training works well in the game, but I would like to be able to do 2-3 selected attributes at a time whereas now you can only do a single one outside of quickness which does two. I wouldn't want it added at the expense of something more important, but it would be nice.

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The idea would be the less you pick the quicker they get better at them to a degree, or something along those lines.

Didn't spot this before I replied, but that is how it works already- training time has a limit so the more picked the less time spent on each = slower, smaller gains.

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Not only that, but you might have a player that is deficient in a couple of areas that are hampering his usefulness- they might not be what the game thinks are critical attributes for the position or role, but I don't care what the game thinks.
Aren't most rl players deficient in one or more areas? Also wouldn't that just be taking the game back to something akin to the slider training system that was dropped because it wasn't considered realistic when compared with real life training?

Now assuming that such a system was introduced I'd want to see a trade-off that by setting a player to only work on a handful of areas they would start to lose effectiveness (attribute points) in other areas, if you do not continue to practice a skill you have learnt you will see a drop in that ability or simply not see any benefit from it as you're now focusing all your efforts in training & matches to improve other areas of your game. The impact of that trade-ff would vary or in some case be almost non-existent depending on mental attributes such as versatility, adaptability, professionalism & determination.

This would help remove what I consider to be one of the main flaws in the current player development model, unless a player hits their PA limit or gets injured I believe they will not lose attribute points acquired in training even if they do not work in that particular skill.

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I think the biggest attributes players are deficient in that make them useless are Aggression and Bravery; that is, the ones that have always been difficult to affect. Most players can be molded into something else useful. There are a few exceptions, but between tutoring (when the system isn't as unreliable as it has been for most of FM15), position training and targeted training there are a few tools to make odd pegs fit uniform holes. While I don't like the current player development style, I also don't dislike it enough to think it needs a radical overhaul at this time, beyond making tutoring a valuable use of time rather than a net negative. That one specific subsystem should be scrapped and replaced - I'd like a passive model where the mental attributes of younger players develop toward those of older players with weighting factors for reputation, position, squad status and other things.

Dr. Hook: the issue I think he's pointing out is that you can't focus on more than one thing at a time. You can either pick a tactical role or a single attribute (with a few exceptions like Quickness). I'd like to be able to work on, say, First Touch and Technique, or Marking and Concentration, or Corners and Free Kicks. Or even totally unrelated ones like Finishing and Tackling.

I'm slightly curious about the Prozone stuff but doubt it'll give me the features I actually want out of the Analysis tab: the ability to slice the various stats by time increments, including first and second half, and perhaps in 15 minute increments. That's really all I want. Let me see what the damned average positions are for the formation I switched to in the second half. Let me see my dude's passing stats after I moved him from AMC (APs) to MC (DLPs). The opposition brought on a new right midfielder at 60 minutes, let me look at 75 minutes to see what the difference has been in my fullback's forward runs. I would buy FM 2016 if that was in the game. That's really all it would take. I don't care even a little bit about the create-a-club or create-a-manager stuff, or the fantasy draft stuff. Just let me get accurate granular stats for the matches I'm watching.

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often players do train two or more attributes that might be more or less connected. i.e. finishing/long shots are trained together with dribbling/agility/off the ball/first touch... i believe there is room for improvement for sure, but it is for SI to decide in what way.

current system more or less resembles the above (although less specific) with role training so if SI doesn't decide to go deeper into training it does it's job. adding combination of two or three attributes training might sound interesting but they are extensively trained at younger age and quite unrealistic in what we get to manage in Fm.

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I'm slightly curious about the Prozone stuff but doubt it'll give me the features I actually want out of the Analysis tab: the ability to slice the various stats by time increments, including first and second half, and perhaps in 15 minute increments. That's really all I want. Let me see what the damned average positions are for the formation I switched to in the second half. Let me see my dude's passing stats after I moved him from AMC (APs) to MC (DLPs). The opposition brought on a new right midfielder at 60 minutes, let me look at 75 minutes to see what the difference has been in my fullback's forward runs. I would buy FM 2016 if that was in the game. That's really all it would take. I don't care even a little bit about the create-a-club or create-a-manager stuff, or the fantasy draft stuff. Just let me get accurate granular stats for the matches I'm watching.

100% this.

I'm forever amazed that gimmicky stuff like 'create a manager' is seen as some great new feature, when the above would be a truly fantastic addition to the game.

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100% this.

I'm forever amazed that gimmicky stuff like 'create a manager' is seen as some great new feature, when the above would be a truly fantastic addition to the game.

isn't that what we are getting with prozone????

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isn't that what we are getting with prozone????

Hopefully. If you scroll down to the Prozone images in the link below, there appears to be a time sliding scale under the pitch to control the time period you look at. Plus it will be in FMC (now FM Touch) for the first time :cool:

http://www.footballmanager.com/football-manager-2016-key-features

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isn't that what we are getting with prozone????

I stand corrected if that is indeed the case. Hopefully you are correct.

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Hopefully. If you scroll down to the Prozone images in the link below, there appears to be a time sliding scale under the pitch to control the time period you look at. Plus it will be in FMC (now FM Touch) for the first time :cool:

http://www.footballmanager.com/football-manager-2016-key-features

I see the time line now in that image. I'm hoping both ends of it are moveable, so that you can highlight a specific time period within a match. The fact this is also going to be available in FMC now as well is fantastic news.

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Hope that the ''unlockable achievements'' such as ''having every Job application accepted if you have managed 10 clubs'' is a choice if you want it included in your saves or not.

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Hope that the ''unlockable achievements'' such as ''having every Job application accepted if you have managed 10 clubs'' is a choice if you want it included in your saves or not.

i+d bet it is and i am quite sure you'd need to pay to make that choice :D

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Hope that the ''unlockable achievements'' such as ''having every Job application accepted if you have managed 10 clubs'' is a choice if you want it included in your saves or not.

I've unlocked loads of stuff in FMC and never used any of it. You unlock stuff as you go along but have to physically click the button to utilise it.

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Fair enough, but where does it stop? If you give a user carte blanche to train a player on however many attributes you want, surely everybody would tick every attribute - A quick and easy way to improve a player quickly without putting any thought into it.

Nah, as the game is currently set up, that part of it is fine as it is. I'm a big believer in leaving well alone things that work well in the game.

it kinda used to be in old FMs, I remember Tugs training being a popular download (the training was broken down into the same categories as the coaching is)

I'd actually like to see both, the idea of training in a position if you wanted to (say as a Treq) or your own personal training if you feel that you need them more rounded

so early on in their career, I'd train them as a poacher (at least they'd make the team with 18 pace and 15 shooting - if nothing else other than to provide a clinical option if they come on with 5 mins to go)

and then round them out later on when they become a first team regular (with my own training) - making him more suited to my lone-striker system, or rounding out his team play (maybe I want him as a Ronaldo-esque winger)

would I want it to go back though?

honestly no - people had NO idea what to do with training, so commonly downloaded one (like Tugs)

at least the new version actually makes it easier for newbies, just train them in the role that they play in and off you go (rather than needing some insane game knowledge to even do that)

as for the matter at hand though, the initial selling point was that the player stays back to work on it (work on free kicks from 20 yards out) rather than the actual drills that you go through in training

of course, being able to select multiple attributes would mean that the person would be staying back to midnight (or something weird) which would [in theory] hamper their condition for the following day/game

remember that they are actually people, rather than the robots that they seem to be

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The one feature I would love them to add would be current pictures for managers, coaches, physios, and players. This needs to happen. I understand it might be a licensing issue, but there really is no reason this shouldn't be in the game or hasn't been for the past years. It really bothers me that SI do not take the time to sort this out. The game price has come up and I think with that we deserve to see the players faces without having to get them put in ourselves. Also proper emblems of teams and competition names is a must from here on out.

That is the only feature I feel has got to be put in.

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The one feature I would love them to add would be current pictures for managers, coaches, physios, and players. This needs to happen. I understand it might be a licensing issue, but there really is no reason this shouldn't be in the game or hasn't been for the past years. It really bothers me that SI do not take the time to sort this out. The game price has come up and I think with that we deserve to see the players faces without having to get them put in ourselves. Also proper emblems of teams and competition names is a must from here on out.

That is the only feature I feel has got to be put in.

You've already answered this question yourself. It's a licencing issue, nothing else. And in terms of the Premier League in England, forget about it changing anytime soon, as EA have watertight rights to the licencing of that league. It actually surprises me that SI are allowed to use the real player names, something I'm sure Konami would love to be able to do.

I don't think SI lose too much sleep over it however, as they know independent modders will release edited data files so that people can have all the correct team names in one download.

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So does that mean that faces are not allowed to be added? I feel that isn't a licensing issue. Maybe portraying the team names and certain competitions, but surely they can put in the faces. It's not just the premier league it's many leagues from around the world.

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I think what FM players wanted to hear was :

(1) Much improved and realistic match engine (it was NOTmentioned ONCE in the preview)

(2) In depth Training strategies and plahyers development (No more FIXED potential ability) player should be able to have more flexible potential

(3) improve interactions with players and relationships (makes it more realistic)

(4) Player 3D graphic that optimised to lower graphics

(5) Improve and realistic regens!?

(6) Maybe introduce soundtrack or sounds of commentators in the game (red card, goal, yellow, corner)

(7) Introduce player sponsorship? (like Adidas, Nike)

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So does that mean that faces are not allowed to be added? I feel that isn't a licensing issue. Maybe portraying the team names and certain competitions, but surely they can put in the faces. It's not just the premier league it's many leagues from around the world.
A person#s image has to be licensed when being used in a commercial product.

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You've already answered this question yourself. It's a licencing issue, nothing else. And in terms of the Premier League in England, forget about it changing anytime soon, as EA have watertight rights to the licencing of that league. It actually surprises me that SI are allowed to use the real player names, something I'm sure Konami would love to be able to do.

I don't think SI lose too much sleep over it however, as they know independent modders will release edited data files so that people can have all the correct team names in one download.

Pretty sure SI will pay for the right to use them in some way, something that Konami probably don't. Or maybe SI are allowed to pay to use due to them not being a direct competitor in the way that PES is.

People should just think themselves lucky that the game can be modded so extensively to get around the licensing issues.

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I agree with forameuss.

Specially the Editor allow us to make massive changes to the database. Some I seen here more then a thousand changes or more in single file or in several files. PES allows changes, but they are limited and FIFA, well the creation center well it doesn't exist for new Gen consoles. So in that regard I thank you SI, to keep mod community going. :)

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What surprises me is that every year they bring us more and more interactions. I can't believe there is so many people loving these interactions. I have no choice but move to FMC.

I'm waiting for the day we have to cope with wives/gf's blaming us for not letting play their boy in the first squad (and I really hope I haven't given you a suggestion here :D).

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I'm looking forward to the Create a Club but that's about it...

I've not read the entire thread but please tell me all the screens are from the "Classic" or "Touch" version.... as if they aren't then I'm sticking with FM15 for a while as I'm not paying for something that looks horrid. I'm hoping the skinning team can do something and make it look pretty.

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I think what FM players wanted to hear was :

(1) Much improved and realistic match engine (it was NOTmentioned ONCE in the preview)

(2) In depth Training strategies and plahyers development (No more FIXED potential ability) player should be able to have more flexible potential

(3) improve interactions with players and relationships (makes it more realistic)

(4) Player 3D graphic that optimised to lower graphics

(5) Improve and realistic regens!?

(6) Maybe introduce soundtrack or sounds of commentators in the game (red card, goal, yellow, corner)

(7) Introduce player sponsorship? (like Adidas, Nike)

I didn't want to hear these.

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I think what FM players wanted to hear was :

(1) Much improved and realistic match engine (it was NOTmentioned ONCE in the preview)

(2) In depth Training strategies and plahyers development (No more FIXED potential ability) player should be able to have more flexible potential

(3) improve interactions with players and relationships (makes it more realistic)

(4) Player 3D graphic that optimised to lower graphics

(5) Improve and realistic regens!?

(6) Maybe introduce soundtrack or sounds of commentators in the game (red card, goal, yellow, corner)

(7) Introduce player sponsorship? (like Adidas, Nike)

To be fair this sounds like a list of things you want as opposed to speaking for all FM players.

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* Better youth developement, head of youth dev seems irrelevant. Maybe more purpose to him and more interaction, insight into future newgens (under 16s)

* Own academies abroad to develop and bring players through instead of partnerships with affiliates?

This.... This is what I'd love to see.

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To be fair this sounds like a list of things you want as opposed to speaking for all FM players.

To be double-fair, match engine improvements, improved interactions and relationships and improved regens (stop with the central defenders who're 5'5" with 2 Aggression and 3 Bravery!) are perennial requests. And a lot of people want more graphics upgrades; I don't, but some do. Training and player development also is something that a significant number of people would like to see overhauled; again, not everyone but certainly quite a few. Player sponsorships and commentators... Yeah, I don't have any idea. I had never given either one a single thought.

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To be double-fair, match engine improvements, improved interactions and relationships and improved regens (stop with the central defenders who're 5'5" with 2 Aggression and 3 Bravery!) are perennial requests. And a lot of people want more graphics upgrades; I don't, but some do. Training and player development also is something that a significant number of people would like to see overhauled; again, not everyone but certainly quite a few. Player sponsorships and commentators... Yeah, I don't have any idea. I had never given either one a single thought.

To be honest I don't recall anyone logging issues in regards to unrealistic newgens being generated for FM15 on the bugs forum aside from an issue regarding some DM's not having those mental stats. But newgen creation and progression is something we look at every version.

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Reasonable! On my end I've been rather satisfied with the newgen creation in FM15, but it is a part of the game that's brought up as needing some sort of tweak every season. I've seen a couple of the 5'5" low mentals central defenders, but that's generally been at low levels within the French amateur system. I can't really recall actually generating more than one or two players with high PA that I've rejected out-of-hand due to abnormally low Agg or Br or inappropriate size for the position.

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To be honest I don't recall anyone logging issues in regards to unrealistic newgens being generated for FM15 on the bugs forum aside from an issue regarding some DM's not having those mental stats. But newgen creation and progression is something we look at every version.

Well.. If I was someone who reported issue since FM12 to FM14 and had no "satisfactory" result in the end - I would not report it for FM15. I don't blame anyone, but sometimes I think that "PR/Marketing departments" think only about "excitement", but not about "tiredness" and "lost hopes". First one is great to bring new buyers, second one is great to lose old ones. First one generate lots feedback and mostly inspired, second one - low feedback and mostly grumbling. I don't know numbers, but hope that at least inspired newcomers generate more cash than lost patrons.

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Looking forward to whether there was an upgrade to AI tactics. But stuff like that has never been made a fuss about in any video presentation, as that is the detail the hardcore audience bothers with and only the long-term would understand. In other words, looking forward to the next wave of frustration threads where those that don't give a hoot about what the AI does and just skimp through games not noticing when half their team doesn't defend due to their instructioins (post intitial release of FM 2015). Or them going berserk when their a billion central forwards "borderline" exploit tactics suddenly become inefficient because the AI now adapts when facing such unusual formations. :-P

If you spent a lot of time around SI you'd know why complacency will never be an issue hence my presumption that even if a realistic competitor were to appear there wouldn't be (or need to be) a change in their ethos.

Lately I've been wondering whether the very idea of people becoming complacent if they aren't pushed (or possibly forced out of business) by competing against another may say a lot of our (current) view on humankind. And reflects on the world as it currently is a whole. Same for the thought that everybody was out to rip you off and then some. Someone more drastic than me would call that stance of thought borderline inhuman outright. Not sure I'd go that far, but the very idea that people would do nothing if not pushed to their max and being pitted against a dozen competitors is saddening. Yes, everybody is "stripped off their hard-earnd 30 or so bucks year in year out" (honestly!), yaddayaddahum. If people didnt' like something, they wouldn't buy it. If you don't, don't do it either. That "selectionist" process has already come and gone as far as management games is concerned anyway. Some games and companies have gone out of business, or their series were axed. Jobs were lost, financial security of individuals put in jeopardy. That's market reality. That's the world we live in. But the reamining one(s) gather the rest of the good folk and have them working together rather than them butting heads. Not the worst of thoughts. Nothing to do with complacency either in my book.

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