Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
dieguitoch

Condition during a game should be split in two different kind of "energies" !

Recommended Posts

Hi !

I think that players conditions during a game should be split in two "things". One should show their long-term energy and one their short-term. The long-term would be quite the same as the one that exists now but the short-term would reflect how a player reacts after a big effort. It should go down quickly but could also go up quite quickly depending on the quality of recuperation of the player. For example, when a player does 2 big 70 meters sprints in a minute it should go down nearly to zero because he should be quite exhausted for a moment. But after a while calming down the player would gain (a part of) his energy back.

When the long-term energy is higher the player would be able to have more short-term energy and recover it faster and when the short-term energy is nearly to zero it should burn the long-term one faster if he continues to try to do some big efforts anyway. I sometimes play a cycling manager game (PCM) that models those energy differences quite well.

With this implemented we would have to use high pressure or the highest tempos more carefully and we'll also have to slow down sometimes to allow our players to regain energy.

I hope that I explained my point of view clearly enough. All the best...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It works well in PCM because of the type of game it is.

Its not really that relevant to FM because you don't control the players.

If you wanted to be picky it could be modelled into FM but the benefit from having that sort of system would be very minimal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Cougar, although the point you make about high pressure/high tempo is a good one that I think FM fails to emulate real football on.

In example I play with a very fluid tactic with team instructions of 'Much higher tempo' and 'Higher closing down' with further personal instructions on most players to close down even more. After 90 minutes the other team is usually suffering more on condition than mine. I don't know exactly what goes into that formula, but playing like that should be much harder on the players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mentioned in another thread, FM need to reintroduce individual Fitness category. If you are returning from injury you are going to do both Stamina and Strength but currently FM only allows you one or the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those training options had nothing to do with condition recovery, they just focused training points on increasing attributes in the strength or stamina tree.

Even in the current training module setting general training to fitness does nothing for a player's physical condition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Those training options had nothing to do with condition recovery, they just focused training points on increasing attributes in the strength or stamina tree.

Even in the current training module setting general training to fitness does nothing for a player's physical condition.

Of course you recover a player from injury by giving on fitness training you combine the strength and stamina roles. If fitness training does nothing for a players condition then what does it do?

His fitness and stamina decrease with injury then you increase them with training along with the %. If not then it should.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Of course you recover a player from injury by giving on fitness training you combine the strength and stamina roles. If fitness training does nothing for a players condition then what does it do?

His fitness and stamina decrease with injury then you increase them with training along with the %. If not then it should.

That's not how training in FM works though, as I said fitness training in FM is about increasing the fitness attributes, physical condition is controlled by training intensity, playing time & rest management.

Edit: This is also why setting team training to fitness in pre-season is a terrible idea but one that still seems to prevail at SI. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Of course you recover a player from injury by giving on fitness training you combine the strength and stamina roles. If fitness training does nothing for a players condition then what does it do?

His fitness and stamina decrease with injury then you increase them with training along with the %. If not then it should.

As Barside has said selecting your training type is about altering the balance of how earned CA points are converted into attributes.

This can be seen on the training screens by highlighting the relevant category you can see which attributes are influenced. Training fitness allocates more points to the physical attributes and therefore less to the others.

EDIT

Also if a category is left long term it will also see a rebalancing of attributes where CA points will be taken away from the attributes not being trained as hard (Resulting in a visible drop) and put into the ones being focussed on. This is most noticable when a player is close to his PA limit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As Barside has said selecting your training type is about altering the balance of how earned CA points are converted into attributes.

This can be seen on the training screens by highlighting the relevant category you can see which attributes are influenced. Training fitness allocates more points to the physical attributes and therefore less to the others.

But you cannot allocate fitness training to a player individually you can only train a stat individually. You can train the whole squad on fitness training but when you need to isolate your injured players into separate fitness training to recover you cannot you can only choose Stamina or Strength. And even if you concentrated on those two individually you are going to improve the other IRL naturally. So why not allow a general individual fitness category for individuals?

Stamina and Strength attributes should drop with injury/age and then be allowed to recover/maintain via their own fitness training as this what fitness training concentrates on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But you cannot allocate fitness training to a player individually you can only train a stat individually. You can train the whole squad on fitness training but when you need to isolate your injured players into separate fitness training to recover you cannot you can only choose Stamina or Strength. And even if you concentrated on those two individually you are going to improve the other IRL naturally. So why not allow a general individual fitness category for individuals?

Stamina and Strength attributes should drop with injury/age and then be allowed to recover/maintain via their own fitness training as this what fitness training concentrates on.

I agree that an individual fitness category for a player would be a welcome addition however it still wouldn't work in the way that you appear to think it would. It has never been the case that focusing player training on fitness aided in injury/condition recovery, I'm assuming that it is a myth that has come about due to an incorrect in-game tool-tip &/or incorrect advice given in FM guides.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But you cannot allocate fitness training to a player individually you can only train a stat individually. You can train the whole squad on fitness training but when you need to isolate your injured players into separate fitness training to recover you cannot you can only choose Stamina or Strength. And even if you concentrated on those two individually you are going to improve the other IRL naturally. So why not allow a general individual fitness category for individuals?

Stamina and Strength attributes should drop with injury/age and then be allowed to recover/maintain via their own fitness training as this what fitness training concentrates on.

FM isn't RL.

Training is mostly automated while the manager has enough control to mould a player without it becoming a chore or an exploit.

You train your squad focussing your squad training on areas if you wish. You can then train individually focussing on one attribute, role or position. You also have the rest option if players are tired and you want them to recover faster.

You never train fitness like you would do IRL.

Over the years FM has had many different types of training from ones where you had to allocate different plans for each part of the day (Too much work) to those that were exploitable.

What we have now gives a fairly good overall balance IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with Cougar, although the point you make about high pressure/high tempo is a good one that I think FM fails to emulate real football on.

In example I play with a very fluid tactic with team instructions of 'Much higher tempo' and 'Higher closing down' with further personal instructions on most players to close down even more. After 90 minutes the other team is usually suffering more on condition than mine. I don't know exactly what goes into that formula, but playing like that should be much harder on the players.

That's exactly my point !... I don't care if the game is very realistic or not but, in this case, I think that it would really add something to the gameplay. Something like the way EA's Fifa series handles players conditions during the game could force us to be more subtle tactically.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Edit: This is also why setting team training to fitness in pre-season is a terrible idea but one that still seems to prevail at SI. :(

Can you specify more details on why is this a terrible idea? I'm pretty sure that most guides around recommend this, and I always do very heavy fitness training in preseason, and it's working fine for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can you specify more details on why is this a terrible idea? I'm pretty sure that most guides around recommend this, and I always do very heavy fitness training in preseason, and it's working fine for me.

Because fitness training only trains physical attributes and not actual fitness, whether condition or match fitness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HUNT3R is spot on & I did cover those reasons earlier in this thread. I'm not sure why so many guides recommend setting team training to fitness in pre-season, it does suggest that they are either c/p exercises or the authors have not fully tested what they are recommending.

AFAIK having players focus of fitness attribute training while they lack conditioning & match fitness increases the probability of them picking up stress injuries during training.

This might be a key contributing factor in why I cannot recall the last time I suffered from a proper injury crisis or persistent injury problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
HUNT3R is spot on & I did cover those reasons earlier in this thread. I'm not sure why so many guides recommend setting team training to fitness in pre-season, it does suggest that they are either c/p exercises or the authors have not fully tested what they are recommending.

AFAIK having players focus of fitness attribute training while they lack conditioning & match fitness increases the probability of them picking up stress injuries during training.

This might be a key contributing factor in why I cannot recall the last time I suffered from a proper injury crisis or persistent injury problems.

Easy, they see "fitness" and go "uh huh it means this" without actually confirming it.

Most of these guides have been poor until they started poaching articles off this forum (or at least getting them sent from the authors.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While what you have suggested may well be a more accurate fitness model than the game currently uses, I fail to see how it would provide any benefit or additional opportunities to us as managers.

What can you do with the information that your player is momentarily out of breath?

Are you going to substitute a player because he needs to take a few seconds to catch his breath? Are you going to try and give new team instructions every time a player has made a long sprint?

What exactly could you do with that extra information?

For me there are three simple questions that needs to be asked which determines whether something might be a good addition to the game:

1) Does it give me any more options as a manager?

2) Does it enable me to make decisions that will improve my teams performance?

3) Will it make the game more enjoyable?

Your idea fails on all 3 questions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am shocked that my 2 week preseason very high fitness regime has been a waste of time.

How counter intuitive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am shocked that my 2 week preseason very high fitness regime has been a waste of time.

How counter intuitive.

This is why we need proper documentation, an actually useful manual, an explanation of game concepts :(

FM is a video game which appears to have a lot of popular knowledge or common sense (related to football). Like, "everybody" knows what direct passing is, what fitness training is, you get the idea.

But it is still a video game with a particular set of mechanics which means there is just one way of interpreting that "common sense".

And if you fail to guess that one single correct particular interpretation it is detrimental to the game.

You aim for fitness training in the preseason, which is an entirely logical assumption in a game about football coaching, right? But what you are apparently actually doing is wasting three weeks of ingame training (because it takes months to kick in - or does it?), and endangering your players (because they are not match fit and at a higher risk of injury - or again, are they?). Same thing goes for other aspects of the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
While what you have suggested may well be a more accurate fitness model than the game currently uses, I fail to see how it would provide any benefit or additional opportunities to us as managers.

What can you do with the information that your player is momentarily out of breath?

Are you going to substitute a player because he needs to take a few seconds to catch his breath? Are you going to try and give new team instructions every time a player has made a long sprint?

What exactly could you do with that extra information?

For me there are three simple questions that needs to be asked which determines whether something might be a good addition to the game:

1) Does it give me any more options as a manager?

2) Does it enable me to make decisions that will improve my teams performance?

3) Will it make the game more enjoyable?

Your idea fails on all 3 questions.

Where the idea does have merit is in how it relates to injuries. Right now player health is represented by a single percentage, which is affected by physical conditioning pre-match, player attributes, the actions of a player during a match, 'invisible' kicks and niggles and 'visible' knocks and minor injuries. The game doesn't differentiate, which is why you get the 'Player X has a minor injury but should be able to shake it off' and the 'Player X looks exhausted and should be substituted' AsMan feedback at the same time. The game knows the number is too low, and it knows that the player has an orange injury or a kick, but it doesn't know that the two are related, and neither does the manager. If we're going to represent it as two numbers, I'd like to separate player tiredness from physical health, perhaps by showing us changes in both Stamina and in Condition, and switching the injury malus over to Condition. Then when your player twists an ankle, his Stamina remains steady at 80% but his Condition drops to 65%. That gives you more information enable optimal decisions, it gives you more options for playing risky or conservative, and by giving you a little more control over injuries it does make the game more enjoyable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's not how training in FM works though, as I said fitness training in FM is about increasing the fitness attributes, physical condition is controlled by training intensity, playing time & rest management.

Edit: This is also why setting team training to fitness in pre-season is a terrible idea but one that still seems to prevail at SI. :(

To clarify this point once and for all (hopefully) - Match Fitness (which has been renamed 'Match Sharpness' for FM16 to avoid confusion) is as such: the only way to actually increase "match sharpness" is to play matches, that's how it has always been. Using the "fitness" focus will help reduce the drop in match sharpness between matches, making it easier to increase it via the matches obviously. The "fitness" focus also does have a knock-on effect on the "condition" as well, but that is fairly minor.

Fitness covers the training areas linked to strength and quickness. The attributes affected are: jumping, natural fitness, stamina, strength, work rate, acceleration, agility, balance and pace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To clarify this point once and for all (hopefully) - Match Fitness (which has been renamed 'Match Sharpness' for FM16 to avoid confusion) is as such: the only way to actually increase "match sharpness" is to play matches, that's how it has always been. Using the "fitness" focus will help reduce the drop in match sharpness between matches, making it easier to increase it via the matches obviously. The "fitness" focus also does have a knock-on effect on the "condition" as well, but that is fairly minor.

Fitness covers the training areas linked to strength and quickness. The attributes affected are: jumping, natural fitness, stamina, strength, work rate, acceleration, agility, balance and pace.

Another idea might be to rename the "Fitness Training" to "Physical Training" or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Another idea might be to rename the "Fitness Training" to "Physical Training" or something.

Would make sense, but work rate is listed under 'Mental' on the attributes page so again there's potential for confusion. Agree it's probably clearer mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Would also just help to have all that information in game. I had no idea fitness training improved work rate.

The training screen highlights the attributes for each category.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd go the opposite way and merge Match fitness (sharpness) and Condition in a single attribute...

Is a distinction really necessary anyway? I mean, when you hear a RL player is "fit, but isn't ready to play the full 90 minutes" it means he's actually NOT fit enough... While in FM that'd be higher condition, but lower fitness (ie. lacking match fitness or something similar).

Can it be the other way around though? Like you're match fit but in poor physical shape? To me they go hand-in-hand, with not enough difference to justify two separate attributes in FM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd go the opposite way and merge Match fitness (sharpness) and Condition in a single attribute...

Is a distinction really necessary anyway? I mean, when you hear a RL player is "fit, but isn't ready to play the full 90 minutes" it means he's actually NOT fit enough... While in FM that'd be higher condition, but lower fitness (ie. lacking match fitness or something similar).

Can it be the other way around though? Like you're match fit but in poor physical shape? To me they go hand-in-hand, with not enough difference to justify two separate attributes in FM.

You can be at the peak of your fitness, able to run the whole ninety but because you've been out of the game a while your instincts, your reactions, your muscle memory, your expectations, the things you do without thinking are off kilter. Not sharp, because you can't actually bring those aspects up to full sharpness/fitness until you're playing games. While you can run up and down all day and get that fit, the intangible needs games. There's a boxing term that's applicable: Ring Rust. And of course it can be reversed. You can be unable to go the whole ninety but are as sharp as ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd go the opposite way and merge Match fitness (sharpness) and Condition in a single attribute...

Is a distinction really necessary anyway? I mean, when you hear a RL player is "fit, but isn't ready to play the full 90 minutes" it means he's actually NOT fit enough... While in FM that'd be higher condition, but lower fitness (ie. lacking match fitness or something similar).

Can it be the other way around though? Like you're match fit but in poor physical shape? To me they go hand-in-hand, with not enough difference to justify two separate attributes in FM.

remeber Eudardo from Arsenal? he was quite promising scoring some goals until Taylor broke his leg. he came back next season match fit but he didn't have his sharpness. i'd argue he still doesn+t have it. was never the same player after that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a persistent rumor that doing fitness training pre-season, would allow players better on pitch stamina for the season.

It's really easy to figure out that 1 + 1 = 2, but it's distressing that those people that can figure that out, doesn't have the "insight" to realize that for most of us what we have is x + y = z and we end up guessing what each value is. When we guess, we are going to get it wrong sometime, but for a game designed to make it a guessing game, until some moderator get inside knowledge from SI and share it with us and tell us we are morons for not guessing right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There was a persistent rumor that doing fitness training pre-season, would allow players better on pitch stamina for the season.

It's really easy to figure out that 1 + 1 = 2, but it's distressing that those people that can figure that out, doesn't have the "insight" to realize that for most of us what we have is x + y = z and we end up guessing what each value is. When we guess, we are going to get it wrong sometime, but for a game designed to make it a guessing game, until some moderator get inside knowledge from SI and share it with us and tell us we are morons for not guessing right.

But its not a guessing game, thats the point.

FM clearly highlights on the training screen what fitness training does and has done for many versions.

Sure I can understand some people just looking at the name "Fitness Training" and getting it wrong, 2+2=5 so to speak. What I can't understand is how its gone so far as to be included in guides when its so obviously wrong by just looking at the information that FM provides in game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But its not a guessing game, thats the point.

FM clearly highlights on the training screen what fitness training does and has done for many versions.

Sure I can understand some people just looking at the name "Fitness Training" and getting it wrong, 2+2=5 so to speak. What I can't understand is how its gone so far as to be included in guides when its so obviously wrong by just looking at the information that FM provides in game.

The 'misinformation' is something we're looking to try and address a bit better with our support this version.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am shocked that my 2 week preseason very high fitness regime has been a waste of time.

How counter intuitive.

I usually go for longer than 2 weeks. This probably explains why I always have slow starts to my seasons. Then always finish strongly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I usually go for longer than 2 weeks. This probably explains why I always have slow starts to my seasons. Then always finish strongly.

I think you need to read the thread a bit closer, especially the replies about what "Fitness training" does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...