Universality - In Football Manager 2015 (Very Fluid)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

That's interesting. So effectively, your team presses in a 3-4-3 shape? Could you provide screenshots of your pressing shape?

You could say that, yes. The most common shape I get on the heat map is 2-3-2-3, as you'll see above.

Absolutely. I won't have the chance today but get some examples over the weekend.

[gooner4ever]

It is an ambiguous area at the moment. If it helps, the way I think about it is in terms of level, based on Mentality. You've got mentalities, as follows:

• Overload
  
• Attacking
  
• Control
  
• Standard
  
• Counter
  
• Defend
  
• Contain
  

As you move up to more aggressive mentalities, you increase the closing down setting. You can then use Team Instructions and Player Instructions to go into the next mentality / pressing banding.

In my tactic, I use standard mentality which sets my "base" level for closing down (and width, tempo, defensive line etc). I add a Team Instruction to Close Down More, so without the ball every player close down as if we are on Control. My Main pressing unit is the wingbacks and MCR/MCL who have the Player instruction to Close Down More, taking them up another notch to Attack. My front 3 have the PI close down much more, upping them another 2 notches to Overload. I set the DCs and MC(D) as a defensive triangle (MC(D) closes down much less).

You could think of it as:

• Overload +3 => TI + close down much more Player Instruction
  
• Attacking +2 => TI + close down more Player Instruction
  
• Control - +1 => Close down more, Team Instruction
  
• Standard - Base Mentality / Closing Down
  
• Counter
  
• Defend
  
• Contain
  

The end result is 3 bands of pressure:

1. AMR/AML/FC pressing on Overload
   
2. WBR/MCR/MCL/WBL aggressive pressing i.e Attacking.
   
3. DC/MC/DC creating a solid defensive triangle behind, on Control.
   

Couldn't say if this is 100% accurate but it helps me organize my defence and seems to work.

I also train defensive shape regularly as it is so important. Finally, pressing is the reason I switched from Diamond to 4-3-3 as preferred formation as it allows me to press the full backs. 4-3-3 seems optimal pressing shape, I cannot see a more effective configuration.

Thanks, it seems that we have a strong understanding in this ambiguous area.

By the way, your CM/D is closing down on Standard level. Your team level is Control but you added -2 pressing for him and his default role (CM/D) adds Close Down More to it, so I get -1 which equals Standard to me.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Thanks, it seems that we have a strong understanding in this ambiguous area.

By the way, your CM/D is closing down on Standard level. Your team level is Control but you added -2 pressing for him and his default role (CM/D) adds Close Down More to it, so I get -1 which equals Standard to me.

The strong disclaimer there is that that's just my hypothesis. It just helps me understand and organize the team. It's worked for me and that has experience covers multiple successful seasons, with different clubs.

The CM(D) is intentional. I want him holding that position as much as possible. Shielding the defence, controlling the game. Again, my experience that has been absolutely vital. During the Euros with Holland, Daley Blind was exceptional.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

OK so here's a sample of the pressing shape taken from my Euro 2016 Semi-Final against Czech Republic.

Ball with the Czech defence. My defensive line pushed right up. Front 3 pressing aggressively, leaving the other centre back as the only passing option.

Passing the ball to the other centrebacks activates the 2nd wave of pressure. Wingbacks advancing and Daley Blind joining the Strootman and van Ginkel to cover the central midfield.

Czech's bypass the midfield, passing to the left winger who is immediately shut down by the wingback and the midfield shift across.

Note the position of Blind, stopping any potential pass to the striker. Possession turned over, still well inside the Czech territory. Blind is now available for a simple pass and he then has multiple options as we attack again.

Result of this game: Holland 5 - Czech Republic 1

[Chrisis]

I've had great success so far implementing this tactic with my Rosenborg side in Norway. The only change I have made is put the CM/D in the DM-strata and telling him to 'close down less'. This has enabeled me to use one of my best players Ole Selnæs in his best position; DM. It is facinating watching the team just shred opposition to pieces. I have sometimes found myself one goal down in the beggining of matches but the team just grinds on and ends up winning 3-1, 4-1, 4-2, 5-1 etc.

Have put my own finishing on it by adding TI 'work ball into box' and 'play out of defence'. This way I actually get good interplay between my team and we do not just go route one.

Summary (for those who want to try it):

- Put DM/D into DM strata and added 'close down less'

- Added 'work ball into box' and 'play out of defense' TI's (along with the already activated 'close down more' and 'mutch higher defensive line'. This gives me just 4 TI's and it workes like a charm.

Thank you Özil! (not just for the great tactic, but for coming to Arsenal also)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

You're welcome. Glad to hear you're getting results!

[wwxxyyzz]

I'm having decent success with this tactic. At first I was drawing lots of matches but my team slowly got used to the tactic and I'm winning games. I changed the right hand CM(s) to a CM(a) to provide more attacking thrust, and gave him "roam from position". This resulted in a bit more unpredictability, and more goals from him and the striker

I'm playing as Everton, currently 4th after 16 games so doing pretty well. The tactic seems to reduce the opposition to mainly taking long shots, and so I haven't conceded many goals

All in all, very happy with the performances and I'm looking at other tweaks to make to improve even further

[1967]

Currently loving this approach! I've always been a fan of possession football but my teams often become more sideways and grind out a 1-0 with 60% possession rather than a total football style of team which creates chance after chance. This is the first time that I've ventured onto very fluid after often favouring a control and fluid or even control and rigid set up. Again, I love it. The movement, the balance! One little thing that I'm working on though is that I have a high amount of shots off target and was wondering if this was the case with anyone else? I can't immediately see the reasoning for it, work ball into box, lower tempo, they shouldn't be rushing into long shots. I'll check ppms but maybe I do need a little bit more movement.

[RobertoNUFC]

Quick update, I am having a lot of success using the same principles in a 4-3-3 formation so I thought I'd share..

I am managing Ajax and Holland, both famously well suited to 4-3-3.

Ajax

This system uses the same principles as the diamond I used with Arsenal.

1. Very Fluid shape
   
2. Standard mentality
   
3. Dominant midfield
   
4. Combination of pace & power in my attacking trident
   

Holland

The team attacks and defends as a unit. We typically dominate possession but we will also attack quickly, key to this is a very aggressive press. The wingbacks provide width. The inverted wingers are the main goalscoring threat, sitting narrow and taking advantage of the space the complete forward makes. The complete forward is essentially a False 9 with slightly more goal threat himself. The midfield is a simple 1-2 set up. A deeper 'quaterback' and two creative, box-to-box players. Standard back 4.

Notes on the Press

The main reason I prefer this shape to the diamond is that pressing is much more effective. I have also tweaked the system.

Instructions are as follows:

• Mentality = Standard
  
• Team Instruction = Much Higher Defensive Line, Close Down More
  
• Front 3 PIs: Close Down Much More
  
• DL, MCL, MCR, DR PIs: Close down more
  
• DMC PI: Close down much less
  
• Match day training = Defensive Shape
  

Rather than simply having the entire team Close Down Much More, I now have them just Close Down More. The reason for this is that I want more control, and to create 3 waves of pressure.

The combination of Team and Player instructions mean that the Front 3 closing down is increased 3 notches, as much as they would if I was on Overload mentality. They're 100%, all in. When they turn possession over it creates a real chance.

The main pressing unit is the combination of fullbacks and outside MCs - they press as if they're attacking.

The DCs press as if they're on control and the MC drops as deep as possible creating a defensive triangle. Essentially the MC is a centre back playing in midfield. Holds a very key position.

The result is the shape looks something like this:

The pressing allows me to be more aggressive with the ball as we are very good at getting it back when we lose it. Also the further up the field we are when we lose it the more dangerous the press becomes..

So far results are good. Two seasons; two League Titles, one Europa League and won Euro 2016 with Holland.

Great thread and love the look of this, especially the heatmap. What TI's did you use for Holland and Ajax and why? Going to use this as inspiration for a Spurs save.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Great - good luck! You've got the pressing TI/PIs in the post quoted. In my opinion they're the most important. I then add Be More Expressive and that's pretty much it. Occasionally I'll tweak tempo depending on how the game is going.

As for 'Why?' the pressing instructions are explained above. I see pressing as very important and creating an organized pressing structure is a real advantage. As a shape 4-3-3 lends itself to pressing perfectly.

Be more expressive is simple. I want to facilitate an environment where top quality players are able to play to the best of their ability. I want to be flexible and unpredictable.

[Daveo72]

One question, are you using the in game editor? your teams levels of fitness is always around the 100%. they are never that high unless you edit

[herne79]

One question, are you using the in game editor? your teams levels of fitness is always around the 100%. they are never that high unless you edit

With good squad management, a healthy training regimen, players that train well, and decent facilities & coaches, match fitness + condition can be maintained around the 100% without the editor pretty much all season long.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

With good squad management, a healthy training regimen, players that train well, and decent facilities & coaches, match fitness + condition can be maintained around the 100% without the editor pretty much all season long.

Particularly in Holland where you have a winter break and a relaxed schedule.

The first screenshot was taken prior to the Euro Cup final where the players had 10 days rest so perfect condition, starting to lose Match Practice. The second was prior to the Euro 2016 final, on the back end of a more competitive tournament hence the lower condition but perfect match condition.

[CybrSlydr]

Very interesting!

Have you tried a flat 3-4-3 with this yet? If not, I may give it a go.

3-4-3 seems appealing to this kind of idea simply on symmetry. Maybe a 4-2-4?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

It is interesting that you ask. I actually cannot get my head around the tactical theory behind playing a 3-4-3. Perhaps someone can explain?

My thought process is that comparing 4-3-3 with 3-4-3 there are two differences in shape:

1. One midfielder moves into defence.
   
2. Wingbacks move forward to wingers.
   

I understand that formations are neutral and it will depend on lots of factors but, personally, I am not sure either of those are benefits in the majority of cases.

I would (almost) always have an additional man in midfield, as opposed to centreback. Midfield is the most important area of the field. Midfielders are generally offer far more on the whole than centre backs.

Given that formation describes your defensive shape, moving your wingbacks forward to wingers leaves you horribly exposed on the flanks.

4-2-4 could be an option for those with exceptional players, but again I'd be reluctant to lose the midfielder.

Counter-arguments or further explanations are welcome. Given the trend towards back 3s I suspect I'm missing something.

As a general rule, I set my shape according to how I want my team to defend i.e press or counter. Then use mentalities to set the attacking shape.

[CybrSlydr]

Here's an article about the 3-4-3, though it appears they're talking about a different type than how the flat 3-4-3 is presented in game - in the article, it's 2 WBs and 2 AMs instead of M(L/R)s.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1589664-why-3-4-3-is-the-least-popular-formation-in-europes-top-leagues

The three-man midfield is common: It's found in a 4-2-3-1, a 4-3-3, a 3-5-2 and most other popular formations, so subjecting your side to that kind of mismatch sounds insane.

But that's only if you emphasise all your playmaking through the middle, and this is the critical factor in the 3-4-3 becoming a non-factor.

The formation bypasses the central midfield and focuses on the battle for the wings, opting to use one of the left or right forwards as playmakers rather than one of the traditional midfielders.

When I take my flat 3-4-3 in FM15 and make the L/R midfielders Wingbacks and take 2 of the 3 strikers and make them L/R Attacking Mids, the game calls it a 5-4-1 WB Wide.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I'm looking for some input on an observation which has lead to an idea - given the aggressive pressing and numbers in midfield, I have noticed that the MC(D) actually doesn't have much in the way of defensive responsibility, in fact the majority of their contribution is as an outlet for surrounding players, when in possession. I notice the occasional interception or tackle and a huge number of passes. I also observe that the MC(D) sits in a position with a huge number of passing options.

Is anyone else noticing the same thing?

This observation is leading me to consider playing a Pirlo / Xabi Alonso type player or even a classic No.10 in that position.

The pro would be a very strong technical player, right in the centre of the team with abundant passing options. The con is perhaps defensive stability.

[Jungztar]

I think you're right regarding the MC(d).... I think you could get away with choosing a strong technical (no 10) as long as he also has strong mental stats, such as Anticipation, Concentration and/or Positioning.... That would enable him to read the game and position himself correctly to intercept passes and start counters utilizing his technical skills.

I did it with a 3-man midfield where he was surrounded by strong physical players and he just spent all day sniffing up passes and starting deadly counters.... OR he would be the lurking outside the box always open for a pass and just shredding the defense with nice passes.

I also believe that the right PPMs will enhence this further. come deep, dictate tempo, shift flanks, killer passes etc. I would probably avoid get forward and run with ball etc....

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I am thinking about trying Ozil there. It could be genius or insanity.

I actually ran a comparison with Pirlo and they're similar players. We'd need a major improvement in Positioning and Strength but that's not out of the question. Ozil is 1.83m tall and has great concentration, anticipation and decisions. Obviously he is outstanding on the ball, and in this role he would have passing options all around him.

Perhaps an experiment for the weekend..

[Jfhgaming]

I actually think what you are describing here, is what santi cazorla plays for arsenal irl. In the past he played the number ten, and was very good, but since özil have arrived it has been hard to find a spot for him, but it seems that wenger has found it. I personally believe that santi has been arsenals player of the season so far, which i think is because he is the deep pivot utilising both his great knowledge on the pitch and his exceptional technique to make the choice between starting the counter quickly or slow things down and work the ball forward slowly. I think özils goal against man u was a great example of this. Santi picks the ball up deep, and then takes a few touches, looks around and he finds an open sanchez, which plays a perfect pass into. I think arsenal would not have scored there, if it was less technical player sitting deep with coquelin getting the ball there.

[gooner4ever]

Ö-zil to the Arsenal, how is the Ozil as a MC/d experiment going for you? Did you have to make any changes to how you play? Since you don't seem to like playmakers in tactics, I wouldn't suggest trying to play him as a DLP/d to encourage these killer passes even further. It could be an option though in my opinion. I almost got myself into playing the 4-3-3 your way but then decided against this idea to try something else. Maybe later. But it's a jolly good thread you have here and a pure inspiration!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Thank you for the feedback. Appreciate it.

It's a work in progress. Started a new game to experiment properly. I lost my first friendly heavily which was a knock back despite Ozil not actually at any fault. Then in the second game Ozil recorded 100+ passes.

The transition is challenging. Ozil is to play MC, working on his weaker foot and heavily focusing on his Positioning. Ozil is currently moaning a lot about the intensity of his training, which is kind of fair.

I should imagine the transition to MC will be fairly quick so I should be able to reduce it in a few weeks.

[macca72]

I missed this thread when it was opened, but it's given me some inspiration to start a save up until FM16 comes out, If I can get working (with maybe a bit of help) I may carry the theory onto 16.

Cheers, great thread

[GavinLP1987]

Never been able to really pull off a decent "very fluid" structure and I think it's down to not fully understanding what player roles are and aren't effective. This is the first thread I've read where i've started to get my head around it and I'm having a lot of success with my Valencia side atm. Second behind a quite ridiculous Barcelona, but ten points ahead of Real Madrid.

In hindsight, the players you start with are very well equipped for the very fluid system. Only one player doesn't have respectable stats in teamwork, work rate and vision, which in my opinion are crucial to this system working. To back that up slightly, that player is Rodrigo and he's the one under performing player in my squad.

Just my thoughts, and this post doubles up as a thank you for sharing too. Great stuff.

[gooner4ever]

Really good thread this Ö-zil , some great stuff. I have been using a 4312 based on Rashidi's template but really struggle with consistency with it and find if my CF didn't score the team doesn't score. For an away game at the end of my second season at Man United I tried the below after reading through this thread and must say was pleasantly surprised with the performance and result!!!

Attacking/Very Fluid.

TI's - work ball into box, play out of defence, whipped crosses, prevent short from GK, stay on feet.

PI's - DLF S - move into channels, close down much more, tackle harder

-------W S ---close down much more, tackle harder

-------IF A----close down much more, tackle harder

-------BWM S-less risky passes

-------FB------less risky passes

-------GK-----distribute to full backs.

Started the Man United game on fluid but felt they were having too much of the game despite me being one up. Changed to very fluid and it just seemed better. Adebayor (on a 6 month contract as all my strikers were injured) bagged a hat trick and Obiang got the other.

In the following game a Europa League Cup Final we beat Marseille 2-1 with Adebayor with another and Song grabbing one. What's great is that I can't remember too many goals scored from midfielders inside the box with my 4312.

Still feel it needs more thrust going forward so toying with the idea of either having the winger on attack duty or maybe adding a PI of "get further forward" on one of the BWM's. Probably the right sided one as there is a FB on support.

Hoped someone may look at this and see any glaring weaknesses or possible improvements?

Just a few things that caught my eye. Your current tactic is in many ways different to the OP's one.

Since the original tactical framework proposed above encourages the use of Standard mentality instead of Attacking, you need to be aware of the 'other things' that change too when changing a mentality. For example, Attacking mentality + close down much more is more than you would have on Overload. Your defenders are also closing down way more, so the team shape is not as good.

I think that Ö-zil to the Arsenal's original intention (and his reason behind choosing Standard/Very Fluid) was to have a well-balanced starting point which makes all players responsible for both attack and defence, without a bias. What also contributed to his phenomenal success, is how he had chosen a formation that is strong in the middle. I once tried this system with a 4-2-3-1 Wide, and failed. Having found a balanced starting tactic and formation, he then began tweaking it to his needs. Essentially, to encourage higher pressing, he raised the defensive line and created 'three waves of pressing' with different closing down levels.

So, if your base mentality is Attacking then this is way more risky (your centre backs also have this mentality) in the Attacking/Very Fluid system. And what is more, Play Out Of Defence isn't really needed any more as your Attacking mentality already instructs your defenders to play short passing. This could be too much.

To sum up, I think that your biggest challenge now is finding the right balance through trial and error. It's probably easier to achieve if you were using Standard and modifying it to your needs.

[Johnleegriffin]

Really like this thread. 

Just want to ask if this tactic works on fm17 and if you could do a thread for the way Liverpool play at the moment. I have tried to implement this way of playing on my Liverpool save but i keep getting hit on the counter attack. 

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 minutes ago, Johnleegriffin said:

Really like this thread. 

Just want to ask if this tactic works on fm17 and if you could do a thread for the way Liverpool play at the moment. I have tried to implement this way of playing on my Liverpool save but i keep getting hit on the counter attack. 

 

 

Thank you.

Yes, this will certainly work. It was actually the basis of both of these threads last year and I see no real changes:

1. Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond
2. Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2

I've used this style of play in just about any shape you can think of. Started with a diamond (4-3-1-2), 4-3-3, 3-4-3, 4-4-1-1 and 4-1-4-1 to mention a few.

Re: Liverpool, I need to watch them more. Keep an eye on the Liverpool thread in the Players forum. Had a basic discussion about it but I still need to make up my mind.

[Johnleegriffin]

thanks, going to try 4-3-3 Wide with Arrigo Sacchi's style

[iamneallyons]

Just picking up this as per our discussion earlier O-Zil, this is a nice read and it also adds a bit of depth to your cruyff/arrigo threads now to for me personally so i can see where your coming from with them etc, its pretty much just a step forward/advance from this into them.

[kingjericho]

What are the TIs of the 4-3-3?

[AndersAas]

On 8/24/2015 at 03:16, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Team instructions

 

Now your team instructions will vary quite considerably depending on how you want to play. There is nothing wrong with continuing as standard, but you may also want to implement some of your own philosophy. I personally have two preset combinations saved:

Press & Control

High Block: Much Higher Defensive Line, Closing Down, Tackle Harder, Press Defenders etc.

Control: Shorter Passing, Pass Ball out of Defence, Slower Tempo, Work Ball into Box

Sit & Counter

Low Block: Lower Defensive Line, Lower Closing Down, Stand off

Counter: More Direct, Much higher Tempo, Pass ball out of defence, sometimes

NOTE: Width and ball distribution both depend on a) my formation, b) opposition formation.

Hi Özil,

I´m a big fan of your work.

Just a little question on the content quoted above;
Do you also change the mentality to either "Control" or "Counter" respectively when applying the other Tis, or is this all based on staying on "Standard"?

Cheers, and keep up your excellent work!