Senegal's Arsenal Thread 2015/16

[MichaelBrown]

Spurs is such a poor example and I'm surprised you have highlighted them. Spurs are the prime example of a well organised and drilled side that win matches because of a game plan and a functioning midfield.

City are an example of how a top striker isn't enough. Leicester are another side that have proven my point (Vardy's form has dipped significantly in 2016)

And besides, I'm not saying a top striker doesn't make a difference. I'm saying that Lukaku ISN'T a top striker.

You used this statement to justify the fact you don't need a prolific goal scorer, you need a well oiled machine. Most would say you need both, and tbh it just makes me feel you undervalue Kane's contributions.

Also, just to clarify, are you saying that Welbeck is the fourth best striker in the league? Or, the fourth who'd you want in your side?

[ajw10]

You used this statement to justify the fact you don't need a prolific goal scorer, you need a well oiled machine. Most would say you need both, and tbh it just makes me feel you undervalue Kane's contributions.

Also, just to clarify, are you saying that Welbeck is the fourth best striker in the league? Or, the fourth who'd you want in your side?

Well, no, I'm valuing Kane's contributions because he is part of this 'well oiled machine' his ability AND his goals help Spurs massively. Whereas if he just scored goals then Spurs wouldn't be as good of a side. My argument is that a striker that only scores goals isn't enough at the top level.

The fourth best for Arsenal. I don't think this league is full of good strikers though.

[MichaelBrown]

You wouldn't take Payet, for example?

This was the season for Arsenal to break their barren run and actually compete for the title. With Welbeck up front, you'd need to see the rest of the team get goals as Welbeck simply doesn't and isn't a prolific goalscorer.

Just out of curiosity, RVN wasn't good enough for the top level?

[ajw10]

Payet isn't a striker.

RvN was more than just a poacher and the game has moved on massively since the early 00's. Look at what United achieved when Fergie moved him on.

[Kawee]

I wouldn't mind a pure goal-scorer like Ian Wright lol. If our midfield will continue to not contribute with many goals, then our leading striker will have to be able to score goals, first and foremost.

When Cazorla was fit, him and Ozil led the league in chance creation. Our striker should be leading the league in the goal chart, since they'd have just as many if not more chances than others.

[ajw10]

A 'pure goal scorer' would do absolutely nothing for us. That type of striker is obsolete.

[MichaelBrown]

You just need a workhorse who scores 10 or 12 a season.

[Kawee]

A 'pure goal scorer' would do absolutely nothing for us. That type of striker is obsolete.

There are very few types of players that are truly obsolete. It comes down to how the team is assembled. Do you know how much pressure an Ian Wright applies on the opponents?

A pure goal-scorer actually can add dimensions to your team. Everyone likes to add variation to the build up. An inside forward, a winger, a playmaker, a marauding wingback, a box to box midfielder, etc. Yet a goalscorer who can score many different types of goals will automatically add new angles to our attacks, especially since we are already a team that can create chances. A great goal-scorer would allow our midfielders to create all kinds of chances, because they know he can score from many different types of services. We complain about having to choose between Walcott and Giroud, but imagine someone who score both types of their goals.

Obviously, these types of players exist less now because teams like to spread the goals around more. Usually three. Modern managers prefer a striker who can score certain type of goals, but also add to the buildup, rather than a versatile goal-scorer. It'd be great if 2 of our midfielders could get double figures, but they're not. It's not just the strikers. Our entire team has been wasteful with their finishing.

[Kawee]

You just need a workhorse who scores 10 or 12 a season.

Ramsey and Sanchez are suppose to be it aren't they? They're the hard working midfielders who get into goal-scoring chances. They're still hard working, but they're not scoring.

[MichaelBrown]

Ramsey and Sanchez are suppose to be it aren't they? They're the hard working midfielders who get into goal-scoring chances. They're still hard working, but they're not scoring.

My comment was a bit sarcastic because AJW seems to think Arsenal have good quality strikers.

[ajw10]

We do have good quality strikers? We just don't have elite ones and as I've said on numerous occasions, they are pretty much impossible for us to get. It's fair easier for us to sort the rest of the squad out. (DM, wide playmaker, CB etc)

[Retro]

Ian Wright was more than just a pure goalscorer anyway. He had plenty of ability on the ball and provided an outlet during build up play. It's just his goalscoring attributes were so immensely good it's easy to forget that he could do anything else.

I cba to get involved with the argument about pure goalscorers and their place in modern football, but I certainly think we need players with better finishing than we have. Whether a pure goalscorer or not, the ability to take a reasonable proportion of the chances we create is something we desperately lack. It's not the only thing we lack but it's certainly one of them.

[Suggy33]

Be amazing if we can get Ibra for a couple of years. He's basically exactly the type of forward we need. Threat in the air but also very comfortable with ball at feet unlike Giroud.

[MichaelBrown]

We do have good quality strikers? We just don't have elite ones and as I've said on numerous occasions, they are pretty much impossible for us to get. It's fair easier for us to sort the rest of the squad out. (DM, wide playmaker, CB etc)

Who do you class as elite?

[Coulthard's Jaw]

We do have good quality strikers? We just don't have elite ones and as I've said on numerous occasions, they are pretty much impossible for us to get. It's fair easier for us to sort the rest of the squad out. (DM, wide playmaker, CB etc)

We don't though. And it's weird you think filling these other positions is any more straightforward than finding a better striker.

[Retro]

I still think Giroud gets a harder time than he deserves when his only crime is that he's not quite good enough to rely on as our main source of goals. He'd be fine if others were weighing in and taking opportunities as well, but when players like Ramsey seem to put clownshoes on every time they get anywhere near the goal, it doesn't help. Walcott misses so many opportunities and yet at other times he looks really clinical. Ozil is a great provider but doesn't score many and Sanchez is woefully off-form.

Obviously Henry was a world class striker but he also had Pires, Bergkamp, Ljungberg, Wiltord and others who took chances when they had them. We don't have that now.

[Kawee]

We do have good quality strikers? We just don't have elite ones and as I've said on numerous occasions, they are pretty much impossible for us to get. It's fair easier for us to sort the rest of the squad out. (DM, wide playmaker, CB etc)

Going forward in the immediate future, that might actually be the case. We don't splash money on elite strikers even when they're available anyway, so we might as well focus on areas that we do splash our money on.

I cba to get involved with the argument about pure goalscorers and their place in modern football, but I certainly think we need players with better finishing than we have. Whether a pure goalscorer or not, the ability to take a reasonable proportion of the chances we create is something we desperately lack. It's not the only thing we lack but it's certainly one of them.

No doubt about it. Poor finishing is our single biggest failure in the league this season.

This article spells it out nice:

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/15118/10189870/wasteful-arsenals-premier-league-title-hopes-hit-by-poor-finishing

"Of course, when you produce the number of openings Arsenal do - and no team has created more than their 85 clear-cut chances in the top flight so far this term - opportunities will be missed. "

Arsenal have missed 57 clear-cut chances this season - more than any other Premier League team

"Arsenal have missed 67.1 per cent of their big chances this season. Only relegation battlers Newcastle (65.7 per cent), Swansea and Norwich (both 63.9 per cent) come close to finishing so poorly."

So which Arsenal players are to blame?

Theo Walcott has scored four goals in 22 Premier League appearances this season. He's passed up 10 big chances and has converted just 23 per cent of his major openings this term.

Aaron Ramsey has the next-worst conversion rate of clear-cut chances, scoring just a quarter of his."Arsenal have missed 57 clear-cut chances this season - more than any other Premier League team"

Arsenal have drawn or lost 13 Premier League matches this season - in nine of them they've missed enough clear-cut chances to have won. Only against Swansea, Southampton, Chelsea and West Ham did they fail to create enough clear-cut openings to better the number of goals they let in at the other end."

Among the forward with the highest % of missed big chances, our Walcott, Giroud, and Sanchez are all in the top 8. So basically it goes Walcott > Ramsey > Giroud > Sanchez. All four have been awful at finishing.

[Ayub95]

I wonder how Francis Jeffers or Julio Baptista would do in this team as they are "poachers"

[Retro]

Who said anything about poachers?

A poacher is a player who pops up at the right place at the right time and scores from a few yards out. We've never successfully employed one of those under Wenger and never will. We have had great finishers though.

[MichaelBrown]

Ayub with one of the worst arguments I've ever seen.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I still think Giroud gets a harder time than he deserves when his only crime is that he's not quite good enough to rely on as our main source of goals. He'd be fine if others were weighing in and taking opportunities as well, but when players like Ramsey seem to put clownshoes on every time they get anywhere near the goal, it doesn't help. Walcott misses so many opportunities and yet at other times he looks really clinical. Ozil is a great provider but doesn't score many and Sanchez is woefully off-form.

Obviously Henry was a world class striker but he also had Pires, Bergkamp, Ljungberg, Wiltord and others who took chances when they had them. We don't have that now.

Yeah exactly. But we are where we are, as I said a bit earlier, I don't think it's realistic or desirable to overhaul the starting 11 to fill it with better goalscorers, in the short term at least, so the easiest way to solve this issue is to get better strikers in.

[ajw10]

Going forward in the immediate future, that might actually be the case. We don't splash money on elite strikers even when they're available anyway, so we might as well focus on areas that we do splash our money on.

Sorry, what?

[ajw10]

Who do you class as elite?

I've already listed those strikers on this very page.

[Retro]

Yeah exactly. But we are where we are' date=' as I said a bit earlier, I don't think it's realistic or desirable to overhaul the starting 11 to fill it with better goalscorers, in the short term at least, so the easiest way to solve this issue is to get better strikers in.[/quote']

I'd like to think we could improve on what we have certainly. But, I'm the first to admit that I don't watch enough football involving other teams, especially continental or international to know who these players might be.

I do think it would be a mistake to only look at the striker situation though because Wenger's philosophy of buying one player in the summer and thinking it suddenly propels us into contention hasn't worked no matter how good that player is.

I do think we have problems in a number of areas and the one that bugs me the most is the lack of backbone in the players and (as Sanchez hinted at) the apparent lack of determination and desire to win. Obviously they want to win, but sometimes that desire to really fight for a win just isn't there. People can suggest the manager needs to motivate them but if a player doesn't have that determination as a trait there isn't much anyone can do imo. But I digress (again).

[Kawee]

I still think Giroud gets a harder time than he deserves when his only crime is that he's not quite good enough to rely on as our main source of goals. He'd be fine if others were weighing in and taking opportunities as well, but when players like Ramsey seem to put clownshoes on every time they get anywhere near the goal, it doesn't help. Walcott misses so many opportunities and yet at other times he looks really clinical. Ozil is a great provider but doesn't score many and Sanchez is woefully off-form.

Obviously Henry was a world class striker but he also had Pires, Bergkamp, Ljungberg, Wiltord and others who took chances when they had them. We don't have that now.

Giroud is just a poor man's Drogba isn't he? When Drogba first arrived and Chelsea won 2 league titles, he scored 10 and 12 league goals respectively.

To get away with that amount of goals from your striker, you need others to chip in with goals, and a rock solid defense (the latter more like a general requirement for champions.) Like you said, we don't have that. Giroud is not a great goalscorer, but what does it say that he's still our top goal-scorer? It's not just the midfielders, like Lampard. When a striker is off form, the squad player needs to be able to replace them. Drogba only scored 10 league goals, but so did Gudjohnson (sp?) and later Crespo.

Another example is Mandzukic who ever scored 20 league goals during his two years with Bayern. His backups, Gomez in 2013 picked up 11, and Pizarro in 2014 picked up 10. And then of course there were the likes of Muller, Ribery, Robben, and Gotze.

[Kawee]

Sorry, what?

Did you miss the part where we didn't splash our money on Suarez or Higuain in 2013 because it would have been too risky or they're not worth the money, or whatever?

[Kawee]

I'd like to think we could improve on what we have certainly. But, I'm the first to admit that I don't watch enough football involving other teams, especially continental or international to know who these players might be.

I do think it would be a mistake to only look at the striker situation though because Wenger's philosophy of buying one player in the summer and thinking it suddenly propels us into contention hasn't worked no matter how good that player is.

I do think we have problems in a number of areas and the one that bugs me the most is the lack of backbone in the players and (as Sanchez hinted at) the apparent lack of determination and desire to win. Obviously they want to win, but sometimes that desire to really fight for a win just isn't there. People can suggest the manager needs to motivate them but if a player doesn't have that determination as a trait there isn't much anyone can do imo. But I digress (again).

I have to agree here. Improving on what we have will have a far bigger impact than any signing we can make. There are a lot of issues at hand. The finishing of Ramsey and Walcott. The form of Sanchez. The mentality. The organization. etc. Sorting things out internally will also set a great foundation for any newcomers.

[MichaelBrown]

I've already listed those strikers on this very page.

So the four or five you named. You dont think there's any better than those who could reasonably sign?

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I'd like to think we could improve on what we have certainly. But, I'm the first to admit that I don't watch enough football involving other teams, especially continental or international to know who these players might be.

Yeah same, all you can do really is trust the club has a good scouting system in place I guess. And we do have the money.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

http://bet.unibet.co.uk/football/premier-league/why-romelu-lukaku-should-be-arsenals-top-summer-transfer-target

The esteemed Gunnerblog agrees with me

[Chr1s Lawson]

I am by no means comparing the two as players but one Thierry Henry had a pretty loose first touch when he first joined.

[Kawee]

I am by no means comparing the two as players but one Thierry Henry had a pretty loose first touch when he first joined.

Oh man, I don't remember what Henry was like for us before he turned into superman, anymore lol

[ajw10]

http://bet.unibet.co.uk/football/premier-league/why-romelu-lukaku-should-be-arsenals-top-summer-transfer-target

The esteemed Gunnerblog agrees with me

Gunnerblog is so unbelievably bad. Awful writer with bad opinions

[PaulHartman71]

on an unrelated note, what do arsenal fans think about jack wilshere and also woj sczeszny?

Woj is still young for a Goalkeeper but I don't think he'll ever be good enough for us - Cech should hopefully last at least another 2/3 years. Wilshere's a good squad player because he's HG and has obvious talent/potential, but he's injury prone and I don't ever see him being a regular first team performer and living up to the potential and hype he had when he first came on the scene. I don't think we should get rid though as he's a decent player to have about - although if he spends another year or two mostly sidelined then questions really have to be asked as it's a waste of a squad place and money keeping him to ultimately do nothing.

[ajw10]

Did you miss the part where we didn't splash our money on Suarez or Higuain in 2013 because it would have been too risky or they're not worth the money, or whatever?

Higuain isn't elite and would still represent a significant risk for the money he'd cost. We tried to get Suarez but were mislead about the release clause. I have absolutely no issue with how we dealt with that particular transfer.

[PaulHartman71]

We dealt with the Suarez transfer horrendously. Offering £40M+£1 was ****ing moronic and basically sums up the mindset of the club. If we'd just offered £45M then haggled up to£50M or £55M for him we would have got him. We put that offer in and immediately ruined any chance of a deal with Liverpool. Liverpool have to take some criticism for a misleading release clause of course, but I'd much rather see us behave like that when selling a player ourselves, rather than just giving up and letting a player go. We got like what £35M for Cesc? Daniel Levy would've got at least £50M for him.

The one thing I would say about Suarez is that I think discussing him is kind of irrelevant anyway. Even if we had have signed him in the summer of 2013 I think he'd still be a Barcelona or Real Madrid player right now regardless - they'd have turned his head when he put in great performances and we'd have lost him by now or at the very least this summer. Probably would've barely made that much of a profit on him as well. Although if we won a league title in the last few years with him - who cares I guess?

[ajw10]

We were lead to believe the release clause was above £40m, so why would we offer £5m more than the release clause?

[Kawee]

Higuain isn't elite and would still represent a significant risk for the money he'd cost. We tried to get Suarez but were mislead about the release clause. I have absolutely no issue with how we dealt with that particular transfer.

We didn't want Suarez enough did we? It's not like we offered Liverpool 60m and they turned us down. We thought there was an opportunity to sign a great player at a lower than expected price through some kind of loophole with the release clause. It turned out to be wrong. And we stopped right there. We'd never have gone for him if we didn't think there was a clause there. That's our mentality: opportunistic. We didn't go chasing Cech, or Ozil, or Sanchez, just as we didn't go chasing after Suarez. That's the problem.

[Kawee]

We dealt with the Suarez transfer horrendously. Offering £40M+£1 was ****ing moronic and basically sums up the mindset of the club. If we'd just offered £45M then haggled up to£50M or £55M for him we would have got him. We put that offer in and immediately ruined any chance of a deal with Liverpool. Liverpool have to take some criticism for a misleading release clause of course, but I'd much rather see us behave like that when selling a player ourselves, rather than just giving up and letting a player go. We got like what £35M for Cesc? Daniel Levy would've got at least £50M for him.

The one thing I would say about Suarez is that I think discussing him is kind of irrelevant anyway. Even if we had have signed him in the summer of 2013 I think he'd still be a Barcelona or Real Madrid player right now regardless - they'd have turned his head when he put in great performances and we'd have lost him by now or at the very least this summer. Probably would've barely made that much of a profit on him as well. Although if we won a league title in the last few years with him - who cares I guess?

Exactly. Liverpool in 13/14 had a god awful defense, and they were chasing the title. We had an in-form Ramsey, and our GK won the Golden Glove. Think what he could have done for us.

[el sid]

There are the obvious ones in Europe like Suarez, Lewandowski, Aubameyang, Benzema etc who are the top tier of strikers. Then you've got the likes of Dybala, Morata and Higuain. Although I don't rate Higuain that highly and maintain that he wouldn't be a great fit for Arsenal and the Premier League.

In the Premier League the three main ones I'd have over Welbeck are Kane, Aguero and Sturridge. Lukaku obviously provides a greater goal threat but I don't think a player with his touch and movement can make it at a top club.

I've probably missed some out and there are some that are probably at the level of Welbeck which I didn't bother in mentioning.

I was wondering if you'd mention Ibra. He's available to sign for a free this summer. Do you not think he's good enough?

[Kawee]

I was wondering if you'd mention Ibra. He's available to sign for a free this summer. Do you not think he's good enough?

Not doubting his ability, but I wouldn't like him. Just personal preference, really. I'd like to see us play with more pace and power in the team.

[Retro]

If Suarez could turn that mediocre Liverpool side into a team that almost won the league, we'd have coasted it that season with him. He was an absolute beast that season and the biggest impact on a team by a single player I've ever seen. He'd have been worth every penny of £60m.

[PaulHartman71]

We were lead to believe the release clause was above £40m, so why would we offer £5m more than the release clause?

We should have at least offered £41M as our first offer. If they refused to sell him based on the release clause then we should have just kept going up and up until they couldn't say no. Even at £60M he would have been excellent value for money for the two seasons we would've got out of him before he ****ed off to Barcelona or Real Madrid.

[Guest]

I still don't get this if the release clause was met how could Liverpool refuse? Or did they have a verbal understanding with him?

[johnhughthom]

IIRC it was a very vaguely worded clause along the lines of Liverpool had to consider offers over £40m. I seem to remember Suarez's agent getting a bit of grief over it.

[Guest]

Ahhh ok and Arsenal came in at 40 000 001?

[PaulHartman71]

Ahhh ok and Arsenal came in at 40 000 001?

Yeah. Immediately completely mugging Liverpool off. They still would've sold him to us if we'd offered enough, but that insulting offer would have no doubt put the price tag up even higher than it would have been anyway.

[Kawee]

If Suarez could turn that mediocre Liverpool side into a team that almost won the league, we'd have coasted it that season with him. He was an absolute beast that season and the biggest impact on a team by a single player I've ever seen. He'd have been worth every penny of £60m.

Exactly. IMHO, Suarez 13/14 was the single best season I've ever seen anyone have in the EPL. Better than even Henry. It wasn't just the 31 goals in 33 games (I don't think he took one penalty either, cos Gerrard took them) either. It was everything.

It wasn't just one season either. The guy was killing it since Copa America 2011. Once he finally adjusted to the league, he was already scoring 20+ goals the season before.

So yeah, I think it is valid to accuse the club of not chasing after top class striker when we had the chance.

[ajw10]

We should have at least offered £41M as our first offer. If they refused to sell him based on the release clause then we should have just kept going up and up until they couldn't say no. Even at £60M he would have been excellent value for money for the two seasons we would've got out of him before he ****ed off to Barcelona or Real Madrid.

Sorry, we should have offered £1m more than the asking price why exactly?

[ajw10]

I was wondering if you'd mention Ibra. He's available to sign for a free this summer. Do you not think he's good enough?

Ibra is excellent but his wages and his feelings towards Wenger put him in the unrealistic category