Senegal's Arsenal Thread 2015/16

[SJ234]

hmm i'm not so sure, everyone seemed far more confident on the ball during the first half of the season from the game i saw. it's a pity Arsene hasn't got one last Prem title, Leicester heroics aside, it would have been nice to see

also 2.05 pts per game in the first 19 down to 1.50 since is massive, regardless of how many injuries you have.

When Arsenal entered the season they had two CM partnerships which worked: Arteta and Ramsey; Cazorla and Coquelin. Problem with both of those is the first relies on Arteta who is permanently injured and declining, the second is flawed for reasons set out at length by some people here. We also had only one three behind the striker set up which worked: Ramsey-Ozil-Alexis. Obviously Alexis and Ozil always play but the third player has to be more of a CM, someone who plays quite centrally and helps out in possession. Wenger teams have always required that. Ramsey, Wilshere, Cazorla and possibly Chamberlain were the only players who fitted that brief. Wilshere is obviously always injured, Cazorla was at CM and Chamberlain is a project so that leaves Ramsey who is also prone to injuries. Get to the end of autumn, Coquelin and Cazorla become injured. Leaving Flamini who is one of the worst players in his position in the league starting. It also meant we had not one fit player who could take the ball from the back and without Ramsey on the wing the balance in the three behind the striker was hit and miss.

Whilst we started the season well the lack of appropriate options, within the Wenger system, in two key positions scuppered us. This was compounded by a lack of structure to ensure Flamini isn't too exposed or Joel Campbell knew where to stand to give the team optimal balance. Currently we are better balanced as Iwobi is that central player but the CM situation remains a mess. Coquelin is a distinctly average footballer and whilst Elneny can take the ball from the back to just have him doing it is ineffective, as his passing is limited. On top of this our passing from deep is worsened by having Gabriel who just isn't very confident on the ball. Our defence is also more vulnerable now because Gabriel is rash and inexperienced.

[SJ234]

I don't think you can say Wenger has been improving the squad AND say that it wasn't a choke this season. The two are mutually exclusive.

Really struggle to see how they are in anyway mutually exclusive. Not that it really matters

[SJ234]

I was being liberal with that one but Wenger gets too much of a free pass for what is perceived as a great managerial career when in all honesty it very much front loaded when there was only one other show in town (Man Utd) & the last decade has been par, okay, adequate or any other middle of the road adjective & then his direct trophy comparison isn't much better & in 30 years the record books will only show the trophies because nobody will care that he kept finishing 3rd of 4th while nurturing talent that by & large went on to win nothing, in fact his ability to develop young players is starting to become a bit of a myth too.

It wasn't front loaded. Your measures of success are simplistic. Wenger did very well up till 2011. He made errors with that team but he was doing a good job in reasonably difficult circumstances. He managed to keep Arsenal in the top 4 and competitive whilst making a profit on transfers, this enabled Arsenal to build the stadium and not fall apart. More trophies should have been won in that period but just because none were won doesn't mean it was a failure or average from him.

Willingness to give young players a chance? Definitely inaccurate these days. Ability to nurture? Not a myth really.

[Rafalution]

Really struggle to see how they are in anyway mutually exclusive. Not that it really matters

Well if you only have a couple of line ups that work and they involve players that are often crocked, that's not exactly a good squad is it?

[Citizen Sandman]

If you had Drinkwater and Kante instead would you win the league

[SJ234]

Well if you only have a couple of line ups that work and they involve players that are often crocked, that's not exactly a good squad is it?

The squad is very good for player quality. The squad isn't good for how Wenger manages and plays his teams. If you gave it to say Martinez (another rightly maligned manager) he probably wouldn't have some of the same problems in relation to the CM pairing as he has more structure in that part of the game.

If you had Drinkwater and Kante instead would you win the league

Probably not. They work well in Leicester's system as a pair. Probably not as effective at Arsenal where possession is emphasised more amongst other differences.

[ajw10]

When Arsenal entered the season they had two CM partnerships which worked: Arteta and Ramsey; Cazorla and Coquelin. Problem with both of those is the first relies on Arteta who is permanently injured and declining, the second is flawed for reasons set out at length by some people here. We also had only one three behind the striker set up which worked: Ramsey-Ozil-Alexis. Obviously Alexis and Ozil always play but the third player has to be more of a CM, someone who plays quite centrally and helps out in possession. Wenger teams have always required that. Ramsey, Wilshere, Cazorla and possibly Chamberlain were the only players who fitted that brief. Wilshere is obviously always injured, Cazorla was at CM and Chamberlain is a project so that leaves Ramsey who is also prone to injuries. Get to the end of autumn, Coquelin and Cazorla become injured. Leaving Flamini who is one of the worst players in his position in the league starting. It also meant we had not one fit player who could take the ball from the back and without Ramsey on the wing the balance in the three behind the striker was hit and miss.

Whilst we started the season well the lack of appropriate options, within the Wenger system, in two key positions scuppered us. This was compounded by a lack of structure to ensure Flamini isn't too exposed or Joel Campbell knew where to stand to give the team optimal balance. Currently we are better balanced as Iwobi is that central player but the CM situation remains a mess. Coquelin is a distinctly average footballer and whilst Elneny can take the ball from the back to just have him doing it is ineffective, as his passing is limited. On top of this our passing from deep is worsened by having Gabriel who just isn't very confident on the ball. Our defence is also more vulnerable now because Gabriel is rash and inexperienced.

This is excellent

[ajw10]

Btw lads, if we let Arteta go to Spurs then I'm burning the stadium down

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I do not give a **** where he goes to coach.

[Guest]

It wasn't front loaded. Your measures of success are simplistic. Wenger did very well up till 2011. He made errors with that team but he was doing a good job in reasonably difficult circumstances. He managed to keep Arsenal in the top 4 and competitive whilst making a profit on transfers, this enabled Arsenal to build the stadium and not fall apart. More trophies should have been won in that period but just because none were won doesn't mean it was a failure or average from him.

Willingness to give young players a chance? Definitely inaccurate these days. Ability to nurture? Not a myth really.

Success has one measure;, winning trophies, anything else is not sporting success. What you've described is a successful businessman not a successful football coach or manager.

The players he had post Highbury were not also rans that he managed to overachieve with which you seem to be suggesting was the case & that he was dealt an unfair hand, a hand he dealt himself btw.

[SJ234]

Success has one measure;, winning trophies, anything else is not sporting success. What you've described is a successful businessman not a successful football coach or manager. The players he had post Highbury were not also rans that he managed to overachieve with.

By your measure nearly every football club fails and only a few can succeed. Seems rather unfair given how important money is to success

[ajw10]

I do not give a **** where he goes to coach.

Good for you?

[ajw10]

Success has one measure;, winning trophies, anything else is not sporting success. What you've described is a successful businessman not a successful football coach or manager.

The players he had post Highbury were not also rans that he managed to overachieve with which you seem to be suggesting was the case & that he was dealt an unfair hand, a hand he dealt himself btw.

So have West Ham not been successful this season then? What about Spurs?

[Kawee]

Success has one measure;, winning trophies, anything else is not sporting success. What you've described is a successful businessman not a successful football coach or manager.

The players he had post Highbury were not also rans that he managed to overachieve with which you seem to be suggesting was the case & that he was dealt an unfair hand, a hand he dealt himself btw.

That's not particularly fair. Success is surely always put in context. If Leicester finishes 2nd this year, they'd still be considered a massive success wouldn't they?

[Coulthard's Jaw]

By your measure nearly every football club fails and only a few can succeed. Seems rather unfair given how important money is to success

It is unfair, but you don't make it fair by pretending otherwise. This is why what Leicester is doing is such an incredible achievement.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Good for you?

Well why do you care?

[Guest]

So have West Ham not been successful this season then? What about Spurs?

Different context & you know that, I probably should have been clear on the context of success for a club like Arsenal.

tbh Wenger's biggest failing was falling head over heals in love with what Barcelona were doing in the late 2000's when given is style up to then he probably should have been looking more closely at what was going on in SW Germany & considering he's from Strasbourg his upbringing will likely mean his natural tendencies are more in line with Swabian's than Catalan's.

For me he tried to adopt a style that he was not capable of truly understanding & this has led to him being unable to communicate his vision to his players, I think he would have found it much easier to adapt to a gegenpressing style than tiki-taka, not that I like either label but they do describe subtly different approaches & one was much closer to how he used to set up his team than the other.

Edit: Not sure but I think I've got you to talk yourself into keeping Wenger.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

tbh Wenger's biggest failing was falling head over heals in love with what Barcelona were doing in the late 2000's when given is style up to then he probably should have been looking more closely at what was going on in SW Germany & considering he's from Strasbourg his upbringing will likely mean his natural tendencies are more in line with Swabian's than Catalan's.

For me he tried to adopt a style that he was not capable of truly understanding & this has led to him being unable to communicate his vision to his players, I think he would have found it much easier to adapt to a gegenpressing style than tiki-taka, not that I like either label but they do describe subtly different approaches & one was much closer to how he used to set up his team than the other.

I don't think it was just Wenger who moved that way (Ferguson at ManUtd did a similar switch of style around the same time) but I agree with your general point. Wenger's best Arsenal team for me was 01/02, that style of play was great and has if anything come back into fashion again now.

[ajw10]

Well why do you care?

Because he's clearly got something to offer hence why Pochettino and Guardiola both want him. I assume Wenger doesn't want him to stay because he doesn't seem to like big personalities on his coaching staff

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Because he's clearly got something to offer hence why Pochettino and Guardiola both want him. I assume Wenger doesn't want him to stay because he doesn't seem to like big personalities on his coaching staff

We have no idea if he's going to be a good coach or not.

[Guest]

I don't think it was just Wenger who moved that way (Ferguson at ManUtd did a similar switch of style around the same time) but I agree with your general point. Wenger's best Arsenal team for me was 01/02' date=' that style of play was great and has if anything come back into fashion again now.[/quote']It never really went out of fashion, it was just adopted & improved upon to counter the more precise style of play that everyone was trying to emulate, had he stuck with his core principles of how football should be played I do believe that with a few tweaks he'd have a lot more trophies on display.

[Ayub95]

We have no idea if he's going to be a good coach or not.

If good managers see his potential it says a lot. Plus how would you know if he's a good coach or not as their job is totally behind the scenes.

[Razzler]

For all the wheels coming off (again) and defence midfielders and ropey centre backs (any chance Chambers plays a first team game?) I think Arsenal need a proper striker, that would be priority number 1. Someone like Costa, no, not him but someone that is clearly a top club striker. The give him a chance in a tight game and put it away type game. Maybe Cavani if he's available, Higuain again (although morning papers "Mourinho to United and I'm taking Higuain with me!!1!, etc)

If Arsenal start the season with Giroud, Walcott, Welbeck again there will be tears. I don't have much of an issue with either of those players and I am sure stats show Giroud has scored x goals but there is always that run of 7 or 8 games where Arsenal just lose touch and it usually coincides with Giroud being out of form and not hitting a barn door and you just can't afford that

Welbeck's defending from the front is amazing though. In United's 'hard working team over glamour' I can't see how he wouldn't want him. He wins back the ball and closes down defenders so well and so often that it's not something that just happens this is an actual skill he possesses in abundance

[Weezer]

Nah not Higuain, apparently he's not good enough for Arsenal

[Dale Gribble]

Who says we even need another coach? It's all romantic and lovely thinking that we can offer coaching roles to every likeable player that retires here, but when you've got a team of skilled experienced coaches do you really need Arteta there as well backing up what they say as a token gesture? When does it end too? Every time someone retires in the club or a former player retires there's always shouts to give them coaching contracts, I'm sure Arsenal know what they're doing when it comes to coaching staff

[ajw10]

You're sure Arsenal know what they are doing? Why? Because Arsenal act like a club that knows what it's doing?

Spurs are currently playing how we used to play.

[Razzler]

Are they gonna invent a day for finishing above you now?

[Retro]

Well I think they should wait until they've done it at least 10 years in a row.

[Chr1s Lawson]

To think we celebrated a draw at Stoke like a victory, small mentality = small reward

[ajw10]

To think we celebrated a draw at Stoke like a victory, small mentality = small reward

Are you really comparing a draw in January to Spurs win today?

[Ayub95]

Especially as we were playing Campbell and Walcott out wide iirc.

[ajw10]

Walcott, Giroud and Campbell. No Ozil. Ox at number 10, with Flamini holding.

[pouncer]

I am feeling like a proper meltdown tonight gents. I'm done if Spurs win the league this year. You really couldn't make it up. In fact you almost have to laugh, it's so tragic.

What's so saddening is that this team seemed to promise so much, yet we've been let down not through an injury crisis or a big spending rich rival or a bit of misfortune but solely through our own ineptitude and our own mismanagement. And not only that but worst of all, Tottenham may very well win the league this year having done what we've been trying to do for ten years.

It's devastating and ultimately the buck has to stop with the manager and the people around him. I've bought into the whole theory/philosophy or whatever it is we have been doing over the last decade but am suddenly so alienated right now. The club stinks atm, the atmosphere is woeful and it's seriously harming us across the board - fans and players are apathetic when we really have needed the complete opposite. Hard to see where to go next.

[iamjerome]

Are they gonna invent a day for finishing above you now?

Well I think they should wait until they've done it at least 10 years in a row.

the worst part about ****ing st totteringham's day is that it was in fact a response to our whole appalling st hotspur day in the first place many years ago. xking

let's hope we've learned a little bit of humility since.

(spoiler: we haven't. see: mind the gap. still not ready until it's mathematically impossible for arsenal to overtake us. )

[PaulHartman71]

I'm not even annoyed at Spurs being above us. Just disappointed. Think I've accepted it for a while now. I don't begrudge them it all really - they deserve it and have been a far better team not just in terms of results, but style too. Poch's done a great job. Doesn't change the fact that it will be absolutely horrible seeing them finish above us though, almost unthinkable to try and think how I'd feel if they do win the league, but tbf they look 5 times more up for it than we have at any point this season.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Are you really comparing a draw in January to Spurs win today?

I'm not accepting that as a good point. We've not won in 2 and the performance was terrible.

Amazing.

[Ayub95]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[ajw10]

Amazing.

Are you really that dense?

[Chr1s Lawson]

Are you really comparing a draw in January to Spurs win today?

It's more of a dig at the players and manager on what they perceived as a great result!

[Retro]

I'm not even annoyed at Spurs being above us. Just disappointed. Think I've accepted it for a while now. I don't begrudge them it all really - they deserve it and have been a far better team not just in terms of results, but style too. Poch's done a great job. Doesn't change the fact that it will be absolutely horrible seeing them finish above us though, almost unthinkable to try and think how I'd feel if they do win the league, but tbf they look 5 times more up for it than we have at any point this season.

Yes, I totally agree. Much as I hate to say it, they've displayed the qualities that I feel are missing from this current Arsenal side and that's what makes it even worse. It's horrible to contemplate the notion of them winning the league, but if they do I can't begrudge them it in any sensible way beyond my lifelong hatred of them.

I won't be sorry to see a number of the players and the manager depart. Of course it won't happen because we'll have the same manager arrogantly ignoring the fans and the same set of players with maybe one addition if we're lucky and the whole sorry spectacle can repeat itself all over again.

[Baptista_8]

Q: If Arsenal had Kane up-front all season, would you have won the league? I think so.

[PaulHartman71]

I think our problems are a lot deeper than just one player or one position. Kane upfront certainly would've helped though.

[ajw10]

Q: If Arsenal had Kane up-front all season, would you have won the league? I think so.

Nope. The only person from Spurs that would give us a much greater chance of winning the league is Pochettino.

[SJ234]

Q: If Arsenal had Kane up-front all season, would you have won the league? I think so.

Nope. Doesn't fix the disarray the midfield was in. You could stick Suarez up there and we probably still don't win the league. Little point having a good striker if you can't put them into a position to succeed.

Side note on Kane, not sure he would necessarily be the most effective striker for Arsenal. We would probable be better off with someone who is quicker and can get in behind more. PEA would be a better option

[Coulthard's Jaw]

With the number of chances we've created this season, it cannot be debated a better goalscorer upfront would have helped us.

Moving on to an actual debate, Kane would be a more effective striker. Very good hold up play, mobile enough to work the channels but also puts the hard work in to get back into goal scoring positions, eye for a pass, he would do most things a lot better than Giroud. This is a bit pointless though seeing as there is 0.000% chance Kane will ever play for us.

[SJ234]

My point about Kane wasn't that he wouldn't be more effective than Giroud, as he clearly would be. It was pointing out that we benefit greatly from having quicker strikers. Hence Walcott being effective despite clearly being an inferior striker to Giroud.

[Kawee]

Nope. Doesn't fix the disarray the midfield was in. You could stick Suarez up there and we probably still don't win the league. Little point having a good striker if you can't put them into a position to succeed.

Side note on Kane, not sure he would necessarily be the most effective striker for Arsenal. We would probable be better off with someone who is quicker and can get in behind more. PEA would be a better option

KAne, maybe not, but Suarez, I'd fancy our chances. I don't think people realize what a difference an in-form world-class no.9 would make to our team, or any team for that matter.

We create more chances that anyone in the league. Put Suarez in there, and he could probably do a repeat of his 30 goals season.

Suarez dragged a Liverpool team, far worse than ours (talk about bad defense!) closer to the title than Wenger ever did with a superior squad. Put an injury-free Suarez in our team, and I'd put my rent money on us winning the league.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Arsène's Son ‏@hughwizzy 3h3 hours ago

Özil's created 269 chances during his three seasons in the Premier League and only 32 have been converted. #Arsenal

[SJ234]

KAne, maybe not, but Suarez, I'd fancy our chances. I don't think people realize what a difference an in-form world-class no.9 would make to our team, or any team for that matter.

We create more chances that anyone in the league. Put Suarez in there, and he could probably do a repeat of his 30 goals season.

Suarez dragged a Liverpool team, far worse than ours (talk about bad defense!) closer to the title than Wenger ever did with a superior squad. Put an injury-free Suarez in our team, and I'd put my rent money on us winning the league.

The problem with this is that it requires us to consistently be able to create those chances and play well. We don't do that. Suarez wouldn't alter that. That Liverpool team whilst it couldn't defend had an attacking structure which functioned. We don't have that. It had pressing. We don't have that. Even with all of that I don't think that Liverpool team would have won as many games again. I think to a large extent they got away with their bad defence through luck rather than just merely out-gunning the opposition repeatedly.

Arsène's Son ‏@hughwizzy 3h3 hours ago

Özil's created 269 chances during his three seasons in the Premier League and only 32 have been converted. #Arsenal

Meh. This season the chances he created should have led to about 12 assists. He has 18.

[llama3]

I recommend giving arseblog a read today - just nice to remember despite the issues we're having.