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Dar2000

Game becomes too easy after a few seasons - Solution?

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I find the game becomes far too easy a few seasons in, particularly when managing one club over a long period of time. My reason for this is the fact that as human managers we are very competent at building 23-25 man squads with two quality players for each position. The AI managers on the other hand tend to spend and spend without off-loading leaving their squad a mess with very high wage bills and lots of unhappy players bringing down morale.

If you look at Chelsea in-game after a couple of seasons, players like Matic, Mikel, Ivanovich, Cahill etc. are still on the books but not registered for the EPL/CL squads.

In the modern game, especially with FFP, clubs can no longer do this.

I would like to see a system coded into the game where AI managers must sell players before buying. Can the game be coded so that AI managers aim to have no more than 25 senior players on their books (As opposed to just the squad registration lists) and therefore forced to sell before they buy?

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The AI code is a lot more complex than you've described and in the current version it's harder for the user just fill your team with two amazing players in each position as they're more likely to be unhappy if they're not starting every game.

Also it's all well and good saying the AI should sell the player, but if there are teams who want them (which in itself needs the player to pass a check list - do I player a formation which utilises this players position, are they better than the current players I have in this position, is my club at a level which attracts the player etc) they need to have the available budget to sign them. With top end clubs this is harder as the players wages are generally higher meaning the number of potential clubs a player can move to is very small. If we said teams could only sign players after selling one the transfer market would likely judder to a halt as who would sign the players to start this process? It's an incredibly tough balancing act to replicate real life transfers.

We appreciate people taking the time to raise these kinds of issues and it is an area which we aim to improve with every new incarnation of Football Manager.

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While it can be too easy in some situations - although there are plenty of things you can do to give yourself a better challenge - the "solution" you outline isn't even close to where they need to go. Like Neil says, it's not as simplistic as that. If they had a way that was that simple to improve AI, they would have done it already. It's an incredibly complex process to have all those agents working against each other, and even then a human mind will always beat a computerised agent.

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in the current version it's harder for the user just fill your team with two amazing players in each position as they're more likely to be unhappy if they're not starting every game.

I must say I haven't found this to be too hard to achieve. Squad rotation seems to keep most happy. On that topic leaving high rep players out of big games (cup finals etc) seems to have no affect on their mood.

Also it's all well and good saying the AI should sell the player, but if there are teams who want them (which in itself needs the player to pass a check list - do I player a formation which utilises this players position, are they better than the current players I have in this position, is my club at a level which attracts the player etc) they need to have the available budget to sign them. With top end clubs this is harder as the players wages are generally higher meaning the number of potential clubs a player can move to is very small. If we said teams could only sign players after selling one the transfer market would likely judder to a halt as who would sign the players to start this process? It's an incredibly tough balancing act to replicate real life transfers.

We appreciate people taking the time to raise these kinds of issues and it is an area which we aim to improve with every new incarnation of Football Manager.

I can appreciate how complex the game must be to code. I am not a computer programmer but just an avid player of your game for many years. I just write things as I see them from a football point of view as opposed to a coding viewpoint. I find this issue is affecting long term gameplay and I'm glad to hear that work does go into improving such areas of the game.

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it is an area which we aim to improve with every new incarnation of Football Manager.

is this first official info on FM16? Improvement in AI squad building is much needed and a greAt news!

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I think the main issue is with AI squad building coupled with the reputation system, meaning that after a couple of seasons the high reputation teams have gathered all of the better players that start the game at low reputation clubs, and those low reputation clubs don't replace with any potential quality. Not sure if I have explained that very well but lets take the EPL for example, initially when you start even some of the relegation tipped teams have one or sometimes two players that are actually capable of playing for the top 4 teams - e.g. Villa - Benteke, Austin - QPR, Beharino -West Brom, Newcastle - Perez, Burney Ings

Now after a season or two the cream rises to the top, which is perfectly true to life, but whereas in real life those teams towards the bottom of the league compensate by buying potential stars, reserves or youngsters from the bigger clubs to give first team football to develop and sell on. They also have to be creative in the loan market and take more of a chance on the random foreigners which is where FM falls down massively, its just not capable of doing this so the bigger teams end up stockpiling players they don't need and the lower clubs are unable to advance. The high potential youngsters go to the high reputation teams whereas sometimes in real life a high potential player will go to a lower team for first team football sometimes as a stopgap to adjust to the demands of the league before being picked up by a bigger club.

The net result of this the longer you play the bigger gap there becomes between the top teams and the lower clubs and this for me is where the whole transfer market could be improved if its technically possible in coding terms.

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Here's a challenge, start at a club in the bottom division of a league and see if you can become the best in europe by winning every trophy in europe as possible.

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actually this years fm has took huge steps to tackling this problem, ai teams are allready buying more players than they ever have in any fm game, they constantly keep improving there teams, what you say is true the human manager can build a great squad faster but the ai isnt that far behind in fm15. If you took a new job in the year 2025 for example you will see its not so easy as you think.

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is this first official info on FM16? Improvement in AI squad building is much needed and a greAt news!
Work goes into it every year, so there was nothing out of the ordinary in Neils post.

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After many years of FM management the last version I bought was 2013. Every time it is the same. I can take any club in league 2 and be in the premiership in 4 seasons, usually 2

seasons in the championship. Then 1 season fighting relegation and second season in the PL champions league qualification. From there it takes about 2 seasons to become an absolute superpower in Europe and at home. This has been true since about 1997. I only ever use 1 tactic, nothing else is needed. I finally stopped with 2013 because nothing has changed for 15 years so I dont expect it will in the next few either.

Alternatively I take somebody like Sunderland or Everton - 3rd season win Champions league and from there I may as well go on holiday as we win everything from then on.

There is no point in playing with any of the big clubs because you just dominate from the first season. I did Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd, win the league first season and then you just win and win.

Liverpool, Newcastle - 2nd season win the league and dominate from there. Always 4-5-1 with AML/AMR and false nine, with any club. The challenge is how quickly you can get 2 good players on each position. Everything else is just the same every time.

Really wish this stops being Fantasy football manager and challenge is introduced where you cant do this sort of thing this quickly.

To be constructive - I think in terms of shooting up the league the unrealistic part is how many players you can sign on free transfer. Usually I have 7-8 new players each season when going up. A new first 11 which isnt likely in real life. 2013 is quiet tough with the reputation blocks on signing players but with Oxford United for example (4th season PL, per norm) I got a couple of 18 year olds cheaply or free that lit up the league so it wasnt necessary anyway to get star players. In 2013 ai clubs couldnt manage fatique effectively / rotate so their players were never 100% and my Oxford United team could beat Man Utd and so on. This is especially true towards the end of the season, naturally. Once you win the Champions league you reinforce and then you become dominant ie whats the point in going on. I think this is the same as the poor gameplay with big clubs, once you become a bigger club you are so much better than the ai clubs, playing with smaller clubs just means that it takes a little bit longer. I really think that should be toned down, it shouldnt be that we can take it for granted that we will win the PL and CL again next season and every season after that. The only thing to do really is sell your whole squad and start with youngsters.

I usually quit because I have grown attached to my players and dont want to jsut sell them all off.

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You do know there's bigger challenges than starting at a lower (but not lowest) league side in one of the richest football nations on the planet, don't you?

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The problem is that the challenge is the same, its only a matter of time. Yes I could manage in Norway and try to win the CL and that would be a real challenge but I am not attached to Norwegian football and dont find it as interesting. Instead of building a club you build the whole league. However you look at it I shouldnt be able to do what I described. Whats wrong with having some challenge in the English leagues? I won the CL with Porto, Dynamo Kiev, Schalke, not small clubs I agree but I just cant last more then a couple of seasons playing in countries I dont really have an interest in. To add one thing - winning with Porto, Schalke or Dynamo Kiev was harder than with Sunderland, Everton. Which to me is a bit strange as Porto has done it and Schalke is a bigger club than those 2 so there seems to be a balance issue with English clubs I feel.

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The problem is that the challenge is the same, its only a matter of time. Yes I could manage in Norway and try to win the CL and that would be a real challenge but I am not attached to Norwegian football and dont find it as interesting. Instead of building a club you build the whole league. However you look at it I shouldnt be able to do what I described. Whats wrong with having some challenge in the English leagues? I won the CL with Porto, Dynamo Kiev, Schalke, not small clubs I agree but I just cant last more then a couple of seasons playing in countries I dont really have an interest in. To add one thing - winning with Porto, Schalke or Dynamo Kiev was harder than with Sunderland, Everton. Which to me is a bit strange as Porto has done it and Schalke is a bigger club than those 2 so there seems to be a balance issue with English clubs I feel.

I just take issue with people that complain there's zero challenge when they haven't really scratched the surface of the challenge that's in the game. Of course there could be more of a challenge in some cases, but then there's the delicate balancing act between having a fun game and a challenging one. Go too far on either way and you're going to have people unhappy.

Interesting to say "I shouldn't be able to do what I described". Are you saying you shouldn't ever be able to do it, or just not on the timescale you did it? If it's the former, then what's the point in playing a game where certain things are never going to be possible? Which is where the fun vs realism problem comes in.

And one other thing - you say it has harder than with English clubs. Of course it was, other countries don't get the ridiculous amounts of TV money that England does, with the unrestrained ability to spend that FM offers.

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Head over to the online section section of this forum and find a network game. Nothing better to keep a challenge going than a set of humans.

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After my current long term game (youth academy players only - no transfers), I might try a game with the DOF taking full control of transfers and contracts. That makes my club as pee-poor at squad building as the rest of the league. I'm sure most of the transfers will annoy me, but I'm going to pretend I'm playing Football Coach.

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They also have to be creative in the loan market and take more of a chance on the random foreigners which is where FM falls down massively

You are absolutely wrong mate. I'm in year 2022, and there are some TOP players(regens) in small teams. QPR has probably the best left back in the world, I haven't seen a left back with such stats, he is insane. Just bought two amazing top quality players from Bordeaux and Saint-Etiene. Also OM have the greatest striker all time, and in my save OM are average mid-table team. There are many many more. In fact in almost every club in the top5 leagues(England, Spain, Germany, Italy, France), you can find at least one player who could jump straight in as a first teamer in any club you have in mind.

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I guess my tactic isn't great, but it took me 26 seasons and multiple jobs to win my first league Championship. The 2041 Serie A as Bari. It also took me 8 years of building the team in that job. I'm forever dealing with players that want to leave for a bigger club......eventhough I'm now in the top 20 in the world. I am ALWAYS dealing with PSG, Arsenal, Bayern Etc. trying to buy my players.

That being said I can see where a player can get bored......create a good tactic and plug in the best players for those positions.......I'm getting to where Serie A is easy(currently on a 40 game undefeated streak) only Champions league is giving me trouble.......My tactic has also allowed the USA to qualify for the World Cup.

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@forameuss - yes I did say in the timeframe. I should not be able to hit PL in 4 seasons, CL in 6 and become a dominant superpower in 8-9 with any league 2 club. It doesnt matter if I am playing in the Enlish leagues or not. After 15 years of playing Football Manager I just cant bring myself to do it again. Right now I have the itch to buy the 2015 game but I know I will be disappointed so I am stopping myself.

I could try to artificially create challenges for myself, like only youth academy, only Basque players, Director of football, no free transfers or whatever but in my opinion the game should provide those challenges. The players shouldnt have to artificially limit themselves so they could have a challenge.

In regards to your realism vs fun question - I cant imagine anybody enjoys just mindlessly winning all the time. Think from another perspective - the biggest clubs have the largest fan bases, and they also buy FM with an idea of managing their favourite club. Then they go on the forums and complain that they manage Barcelona, Man Utd etc. and the game is just no fun as they cant lose. So people tell them manage Halifax Town, of course Barca is easy etc etc, but that isnt why they bought the game in he first place. They wanted to manage a club that they are a fan off and we are telling them, yeah, you could do that but it wont be much fun. If I had to guess I would bet the largest percentage of FM players are fans of big clubs. I am an Arsenal fan but I have never managed Arsenal for more than 1 season, just to see if i can win everything in the first season.

Why would I bother doing it for longer, I am already the best - rotate players, reinforce when needed and you are unstoppable.

I am pretty sure Maurinho, Guardiola, Wenger, Ancelotti cant just take it for granted that winning will be easy.

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@forameuss - yes I did say in the timeframe. I should not be able to hit PL in 4 seasons, CL in 6 and become a dominant superpower in 8-9 with any league 2 club. It doesnt matter if I am playing in the Enlish leagues or not. After 15 years of playing Football Manager I just cant bring myself to do it again. Right now I have the itch to buy the 2015 game but I know I will be disappointed so I am stopping myself.

I could try to artificially create challenges for myself, like only youth academy, only Basque players, Director of football, no free transfers or whatever but in my opinion the game should provide those challenges. The players shouldnt have to artificially limit themselves so they could have a challenge.

In regards to your realism vs fun question - I cant imagine anybody enjoys just mindlessly winning all the time. Think from another perspective - the biggest clubs have the largest fan bases, and they also buy FM with an idea of managing their favourite club. Then they go on the forums and complain that they manage Barcelona, Man Utd etc. and the game is just no fun as they cant lose. So people tell them manage Halifax Town, of course Barca is easy etc etc, but that isnt why they bought the game in he first place. They wanted to manage a club that they are a fan off and we are telling them, yeah, you could do that but it wont be much fun. If I had to guess I would bet the largest percentage of FM players are fans of big clubs. I am an Arsenal fan but I have never managed Arsenal for more than 1 season, just to see if i can win everything in the first season.

Why would I bother doing it for longer, I am already the best - rotate players, reinforce when needed and you are unstoppable.

I am pretty sure Maurinho, Guardiola, Wenger, Ancelotti cant just take it for granted that winning will be easy.

Do you have fm15? if not well fm15 is the hardest fm in a long time, and theres always online with friends, makes things twice as hard right away.also top manager win trophies where ever they go, so yes you could say winning is also easy in real life for such top managers in great teams, even thou the hard work that goes on behind the scenes.

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i have to say Palachinka has a valid point, at least from my point of view. if you take top team it takes 2 seasons at most to win the domestic competition and it is only matter of time to brush aside all the competition. it is pretty much the same in the lower leagues and was like that from like... always.

the game did get better at providing challenge and some nonsense that was present in older games (i remember getting lothar matthaus to croatian club on free) aren't there but it is still too easy if you play with attention.

to be more constructive i can provide few "tricks" i use to make it more difficult for human player.

- attributes - they are too obvious and too precise so i use only bars and divide them into 4 colours. 17-20 top attribute, 14-16 very good, 11-13 average and 1-10 low. this way i don't know precisely how good any player is but i can see if he is excellent, good, average...

- star ratings - again, they are too obvious with 1 to 10 (half star to 5 stars) rating. i've made custom stars that rate players only from 1 to 5 so it is much easier to make mistake in judging potential.

- competition - i've recreated yugoslavian league and in top division you can't have more than one foreign player which makes all the foreign talent pretty much redundand.

that being said, i still managed to get from second croatian division (5th tier) to top federal division in 8 years. the problem is that once in top division it is really hard to establish the club that isn't based in one of the major cities which still provides quite a challenge not to mention european cups that are going to be close to impossible to get.

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- attributes - they are too obvious and too precise so i use only bars and divide them into 4 colours. 17-20 top attribute, 14-16 very good, 11-13 average and 1-10 low. this way i don't know precisely how good any player is but i can see if he is excellent, good, average...

- star ratings - again, they are too obvious with 1 to 10 (half star to 5 stars) rating. i've made custom stars that rate players only from 1 to 5 so it is much easier to make mistake in judging potential.

These are a must. I use two colors Under 10 = Red Above 10 = Green

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@forameuss - yes I did say in the timeframe. I should not be able to hit PL in 4 seasons, CL in 6 and become a dominant superpower in 8-9 with any league 2 club. It doesnt matter if I am playing in the Enlish leagues or not.

It does though. You said it yourself - it's harder working in German football than English, because once you reach the Premier League you will be lavished with their riches and can head into overdrive in terms of success.

I could try to artificially create challenges for myself, like only youth academy, only Basque players, Director of football, no free transfers or whatever but in my opinion the game should provide those challenges. The players shouldnt have to artificially limit themselves so they could have a challenge.

Again though, this is where I don't get it. Fair enough you say you shouldn't have to seek out the challenges, but if you're not enjoying the challenge of doing one thing, why not go and seek out a bigger challenge within the constructs of the game? I get your complaint, totally do, but it's not as if there aren't other options to alleviate said complaint.

In regards to your realism vs fun question - I cant imagine anybody enjoys just mindlessly winning all the time.

But they'll enjoy it a hell of a lot more than losing all of the time. Hence the balancing act.

Think from another perspective - the biggest clubs have the largest fan bases, and they also buy FM with an idea of managing their favourite club. Then they go on the forums and complain that they manage Barcelona, Man Utd etc. and the game is just no fun as they cant lose. So people tell them manage Halifax Town, of course Barca is easy etc etc, but that isnt why they bought the game in he first place. They wanted to manage a club that they are a fan off and we are telling them, yeah, you could do that but it wont be much fun. If I had to guess I would bet the largest percentage of FM players are fans of big clubs. I am an Arsenal fan but I have never managed Arsenal for more than 1 season, just to see if i can win everything in the first season.

Again, I can see that point, but to some people it's still a challenge to do that. It's not as if you can take control of Arsenal in the first season, and then just mindlessly press space until profit. If you're good enough tactically, you'll do fine, but there are players out there who will want to go a big club, and still not be the greatest at it.

Why would I bother doing it for longer, I am already the best - rotate players, reinforce when needed and you are unstoppable.

I am pretty sure Maurinho, Guardiola, Wenger, Ancelotti cant just take it for granted that winning will be easy.

Comparing it to real life in this sense is never going to work. In this case, Mourinho, Guardiola, Wenger and Ancelotti are all just bits of code floating around in the game. Their AI has gotten much better, particularly in FM14 and FM15, but they can still be outmanoeuvered by someone who knows what they are doing.

I guess my main point of this would be that there are people out there - seems like you're one of them - who are great at the game. That's good for them (or bad I guess since you don't like how easy it is), but it's by no means the majority. Given that SI are against adding difficulty levels (I think they're still of that opinion) then would you want them to make the game harder to suit you, and risk alienating what is probably the vast majority of their player base? I know that's an unfair question, and to you - and any user - all that really matters is whether you enjoy the game, but it's a pertinent one. SI have to think from their own perspective, and making a truly punishing unforgivable game would be suicide from them. Hence, we're back at the realism vs fun argument.

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These are a must. I use two colors Under 10 = Red Above 10 = Green

They've moved towards that certainly with the attribute ranges, but I'm guessing you mean they should stay less accurate once the player arrives at the club and is fully assessed. I'd probably go along with that, although given that this is possible through skinning, I doubt they'd go much further than where they are now, giving those that want it the option to put in the skin themselves, leaving it untouched for the rest.

Will be interesting to see how the develop this area for FM16.

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Again, I can see that point, but to some people it's still a challenge to do that. It's not as if you can take control of Arsenal in the first season, and then just mindlessly press space until profit. If you're good enough tactically, you'll do fine, but there are players out there who will want to go a big club, and still not be the greatest at it.

Comparing it to real life in this sense is never going to work. In this case, Mourinho, Guardiola, Wenger and Ancelotti are all just bits of code floating around in the game. Their AI has gotten much better, particularly in FM14 and FM15, but they can still be outmanoeuvered by someone who knows what they are doing.

I guess my main point of this would be that there are people out there - seems like you're one of them - who are great at the game. That's good for them (or bad I guess since you don't like how easy it is), but it's by no means the majority. Given that SI are against adding difficulty levels (I think they're still of that opinion) then would you want them to make the game harder to suit you, and risk alienating what is probably the vast majority of their player base? I know that's an unfair question, and to you - and any user - all that really matters is whether you enjoy the game, but it's a pertinent one. SI have to think from their own perspective, and making a truly punishing unforgivable game would be suicide from them. Hence, we're back at the realism vs fun argument.

You make valid points, and of course I am speaking from my own selfish point of view ie I want the game to be good for me.

I understand its a balancing act, and of course if I finished 7th for 3 years in a row (would love that right now) but I understand I might feel like I am not making progress and that would not be so exciting. I agree difficulty levels would be a bad idea, personally I feel masking attributes is also a bad idea as it turns the game more into a gambling type scenario. My player could have 15 or 20 pace, over 20 or so attributes that's a lot of uncertainty and also it is not realistic. For example I know that Bellerin is 0.2 seconds quicker than Wallcot over 40 yards, who is again slightly quicker than Henry was, in real life. When you see players in training every day you know whether he has pace 15 or 20. Potential ok is more difficult to judge and mental attributes.

I think a better balance could be found by obviously improving the ai of computer controlled clubs - in terms of tactics, squad building, squad management and scouting. By slowing down my ability to improve my squad so drastically every season. Tactics don't matter in the game, I think I have played a 4-5-1 for the last 15 years, I enjoy tricky wingers and wideplaymakers. Arsenal pretty much :)) In fact changing tactics is detrimental as it is in real life, you only want subtle changes depending on the opponent. Once you are strong you don't even want that. I dont do any teamtalks or press interviews, all handled by assistant. Training I fiddle with a little bit. But really its just buying/selling and morale/contracts. There should be more to it. Once you are rich buying/selling + contracts becomes a lot easier and then there is not much to it left.

Yes winning everything with Arsenal in first season isn't automatic, you need about 3 players, but after that it is.

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When you see players in training every day you know whether he has pace 15 or 20.

this is valid only for squad you are managing. you would know how much would your players score on scale 1-20 if you measure them. then you would probably bunch them together having an odd superfast player, bunch of medium and an odd slow player. however, what that wouldn't tell you is how your players compare to others in the league in such precise way. all you would have is a vague bunching of superfast, medium and slow players. which using coloured bars to represent attributes work much better than exact numbers in resembling the reality. allowing overlaps due to form would bring it to yet higher level of realism but that is entirely up to si to allow.

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Why not keep the numbers but give a range say - 15 to 20 pace but as you scout the player for longer with better scouts it gets more precise. So you are pretty accurate with your squad but other teams/players you need to scout for a bit to get better results.

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The AI code is a lot more complex than you've described and in the current version it's harder for the user just fill your team with two amazing players in each position as they're more likely to be unhappy if they're not starting every game.

Also it's all well and good saying the AI should sell the player, but if there are teams who want them (which in itself needs the player to pass a check list - do I player a formation which utilises this players position, are they better than the current players I have in this position, is my club at a level which attracts the player etc) they need to have the available budget to sign them. With top end clubs this is harder as the players wages are generally higher meaning the number of potential clubs a player can move to is very small. If we said teams could only sign players after selling one the transfer market would likely judder to a halt as who would sign the players to start this process? It's an incredibly tough balancing act to replicate real life transfers.

We appreciate people taking the time to raise these kinds of issues and it is an area which we aim to improve with every new incarnation of Football Manager.

You almost got me agreeing with you Neil, but you lost me with "two amazing players in each position as they're more likely to be unhappy if they're not starting every game", because in my experience, even the second choice (or third, in that matter) nag all the time demanding first eleven football. Crappy players with squad status "reserve" or "not needed" bitching to play, and I put all my best efforts to maintain a 23 player squad to avoid this type of claim. It's useless. And this is the thing that annoys me most in FM15

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move clubs look for a new challlenge within game. Thats what i did with my liverpool save, basically started a journeyman in 2030 (y)

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