4-5-1 in FM14 - Tuning ideas needed

[baddragon62]

I have dragged southport from skrill north to premier league over 11 seasons....

I have just completed my 3rd season in the premier league with a 4-5-1 where my team finished 3rd in the league. We had a slump which meant we were always 10 points off the pace in the last half of the season. The second season I finished 1st and I think the opposition have started to take me seriously. In fact Mourinho actually bothered to insult me in the press this season, so I must be seen as a threat!

First my formation

----------------------- GK (D) ------------------------

-------- WB(S) -- CD(D) -- CD (D) -- WB(A) -------

-- WM(A) -- CM(S) -- CM(D) -- CM(A) -- WM(S) --

------------------------ F9(S) -------------------------

Mentality : Standard

Fluidity : Fluid

TI : Push Higher up, Drill Crosses, Retain posession

PI :

GK - Dist to Defenders

CM(S/A) - Close down more

WM(A/S) - Get Further Fwd, Cut inside, Sit Narrow

Objectives - I was the tactic to play with two lines of attack, either down the left with the WM(S) feeding the overlapping winger or through the center with the CM(S) / F9 holding the ball up and looking for either the CM(A) or WM(A) getting in behind the defence.

This is not happening. We have lost our punch on attack and are struggling to create movement. I have watched a lot of games in full and from what I can see we are getting bogged outside the area and my players are not making runs in behind the line. The player on the ball is getting isolated too often and dispossessed, a sure sign that the the passing options are not available.

I have experimented with DLP(S) DLP(D) CM(A) in the center midfield, along with changing the role of the F9 to a DFL(S) or DLF(A).

What I can't seem to work out is what is the underlying cause of the problem.

Defensively we are quite sound, conceding 22 goals in 38 games. Next best was 33 and 34.

Our problem is we only scored 69 goals for - Last season, using similar tactics we scored 91 goals.

Last season my striker scored 32 goals in the league with 6 assists in 29 games. This season he has managed only 11 goals and 8 assists in 30 games. Injuries to up to 5 starters at a time may have contributed, however Something feels off this season.

What am I missing?

[Cleon]

I think this thread I did covers every single one of the issues with your midfield and attack;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/423246-What-Makes-A-Goalscorer-!

The issue is a bad tactic can get you so far but once your reputation starts getting higher then it gets found out. The tactic you've posted about above offers little in an attack sense once you start to become a big side, you don't really have an attack. Your wide players and the F9 aren't enough to break defences down as the striker is dropping deep so no-one is occupying the oppositions defenders. Have a read of the thread I linked above and the penny should drop with what's wrong.

[Jambo98]

The obvious answer to the things you are observing, to me at least, is the "Retain Possession" shout? HAve you thought about the behaviour this produces, and whether this contributes to your players not being found by through balls etc.

With the type of setup you have, you should be looking to break from deep and get in behind with the 2 attacking players in the midfield strata and the attacking wingback. The F9 should be dragging players out to create space, and retain possession will somewhat inhibit your ability to take advantage of that space.

The other thing i would consider is "Push higher up" - By default i find that very effective with this formation/shape, however i have found in at least one save, as i started to have sustained success teams sat in and it made things very conjested. I started to remove that shout in games where the opposition was playing deep against me, to try and create space and it worked pretty well.

Lastly, im going to sound a bit of presumptious tw*t here and say that i assume some of that tactic might have come from my 451 thread - If so, you will likely know how much i preach the need for suitable PPMs. Having achieved what you have already (which is pretty damn impressive!), you clearly have a well balanced team/squad, but is it possible that recent player turnover has perhaps altered the player types you have in key roles?

I tend to disagree with Cleon, i think you do have an attack with this setup, but only with the right players

[Cleon]

The obvious answer to the things you are observing, to me at least, is the "Retain Possession" shout? HAve you thought about the behaviour this produces, and whether this contributes to your players not being found by through balls etc.

With the type of setup you have, you should be looking to break from deep and get in behind with the 2 attacking players in the midfield strata and the attacking wingback. The F9 should be dragging players out to create space, and retain possession will somewhat inhibit your ability to take advantage of that space.

The other thing i would consider is "Push higher up" - By default i find that very effective with this formation/shape, however i have found in at least one save, as i started to have sustained success teams sat in and it made things very conjested. I started to remove that shout in games where the opposition was playing deep against me, to try and create space and it worked pretty well.

Lastly, im going to sound a bit of presumptious tw*t here and say that i assume some of that tactic might have come from my 451 thread - If so, you will likely know how much i preach the need for suitable PPMs. Having achieved what you have already (which is pretty damn impressive!), you clearly have a well balanced team/squad, but is it possible that recent player turnover has perhaps altered the player types you have in key roles?

I tend to disagree with Cleon, i think you do have an attack with this setup, but only with the right players

So he currently doesn't then?

[Jambo98]

No idea, not sufficient info provided to judge. But his last 2 league positions have been first and third, with a team brought up from the bottom division, so he cant have a terrible side.

It might be just one or two players who no longer perfectly suit things. Ive experienced it myself. An "upgrade" of a better player actually might not have the same PPM's or a subtle difference in an attribute you didnt look at, and it knocks the balance out just slightly. It might only make a 10% difference to your teams performance, but thats often enough to go from champions to third.

[Cleon]

No idea, not sufficient info provided to judge. But his last 2 league positions have been first and third, with a team brought up from the bottom division, so he cant have a terrible side.

It might be just one or two players who no longer perfectly suit things. Ive experienced it myself. An "upgrade" of a better player actually might not have the same PPM's or a subtle difference in an attribute you didnt look at, and it knocks the balance out just slightly. It might only make a 10% difference to your teams performance, but thats often enough to go from champions to third.

That's his issue though, he's gone from being the underdog to one of the better sides. So now his current attack won't work due to him not having natural space to attack, now the emphasis is on him to create the space and how he uses it as all changed. Before other sides would be more attacking against him so he didn't have to bother much about how he was using the space. Now though he's suffering for it attack wise as his attack is not set up to break sides down. It's not enough to break down or occupy the opposition defenders. It allows them to retain shape and everything that happens will be in front of them, that makes it very easy to defend againt.

[baddragon62]

No idea, not sufficient info provided to judge. But his last 2 league positions have been first and third, with a team brought up from the bottom division, so he cant have a terrible side.

It might be just one or two players who no longer perfectly suit things. Ive experienced it myself. An "upgrade" of a better player actually might not have the same PPM's or a subtle difference in an attribute you didnt look at, and it knocks the balance out just slightly. It might only make a 10% difference to your teams performance, but thats often enough to go from champions to third.

I came back to this thread after a frustrating evening and had decided that the retain possession was the issue. Am I right in thinking this could be the reason that my players dwell on te ball?

I am thinking that this shout means they are looking for a safe pass, which was ok in the lower league, but in the premier league you dont have time on the ball.

That and I had my wide mids set with get further forward PI. The wide mids were going crazy and rushing ahead after laying off a pass. That with retain possession meant the poor midfield was left looking for a safe pass as the target disappeared into the distance. Silly me I thought that the midfield was to blame and it wasn't until I had a good look under the hood that I realised what was broken there. I was focussing on the player not passing, instead of seeing the targets were moving out of range.

I swapped the retain possession with shorter passing, and told the wide mids to behave, and things are looking better. Also I have had a player in the squad playing in the midfield who has been throwing his toys out of the cot a bit - I think he was disrupting the squad harmony, so I promoted his backup and moved him on for a profit.

[RTHerringbone]

I came back to this thread after a frustrating evening and had decided that the retain possession was the issue. Am I right in thinking this could be the reason that my players dwell on te ball?

Absolutely - it lowers tempo and will encourage players to look for a shorter passing option. They will hold onto the ball to wait for a passing target to become available. I look at it as more of a "shutting the game down" option than a default TI to use. By definition, it can limit your passing variety, which isn't a good idea unless you have a very specific playing style in mind.

[baddragon62]

Lastly, im going to sound a bit of presumptious tw*t here and say that i assume some of that tactic might have come from my 451 thread - If so, you will likely know how much i preach the need for suitable PPMs. Having achieved what you have already (which is pretty damn impressive!), you clearly have a well balanced team/squad, but is it possible that recent player turnover has perhaps altered the player types you have in key roles?

It is - I made it up to the Championship playing a 4-1-2-2W-1 but had to find something else as I was being carved open too much on the counter. Reading your thread was the inspiration for the change, and I love the way it has shored up the defence. I think you are right that I don't have all the pieces in place yet - and maybe that is me not having a clear objective as to where my attack shape wants to go as anything. I have been trying to make the shape into the 4-1-2-2W-1 on attack tonight, and have had more success once I had a clear picture of the end result.

[baddragon62]

Absolutely - it lowers tempo and will encourage players to look for a shorter passing option. They will hold onto the ball to wait for a passing target to become available. I look at it as more of a "shutting the game down" option than a default TI to use. By definition, it can limit your passing variety, which isn't a good idea unless you have a very specific playing style in mind.

Damn - It seems so bloomin simple when you put it like that :-)

What does short passing do? Does that mean that the players will stay closer together but still try some adventurous passes if they are on?

[Jambo98]

That's his issue though, he's gone from being the underdog to one of the better sides. So now his current attack won't work due to him not having natural space to attack, now the emphasis is on him to create the space and how he uses it as all changed. Before other sides would be more attacking against him so he didn't have to bother much about how he was using the space. Now though he's suffering for it attack wise as his attack is not set up to break sides down. It's not enough to break down or occupy the opposition defenders. It allows them to retain shape and everything that happens will be in front of them, that makes it very easy to defend againt.

I guess i just fundamentally disagree that this attack doesnt work when you are a top side. It needs the right players, of course. But with the right players this shape creates plenty of movement between the lines and lateral movement, which can help create spaces even against defensive opposition. As you get better players, it can create lovely interchange and overlap type play.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say, so hopefully with your tweaks baddragon you can start to get on track to challenge again. I very much agree with what RTH said - Retain Possession isnt often a shout id use by default. I do use it to close out games.

The thing i would say about your attacking shape desire - Its worth considering the fullbacks in that context. In reality, your attacking shape is unlikely to be a "4" anything, unless you used FB(d) - So in reality in attack you might more want a 2 1 3 2 1........

[Cleon]

If you want more direct help upload a PKM and I'll show you in your own PKM's why the attack doesn't work like it should and will be inconsistent even with the changes you've made.

[baddragon62]

The thing i would say about your attacking shape desire - Its worth considering the fullbacks in that context. In reality, your attacking shape is unlikely to be a "4" anything, unless you used FB(d) - So in reality in attack you might more want a 2 1 3 2 1........

I take your point - What I am picturing is the following transition from D to A.

------------- G -----------

---- F --- D ----- D ----F--

--W----M--- M ----M----W--

--------------S---------------

to

------------- G -----------

------ D ---------- D ------

-- F --------- M ------------

--------- M ----------- W - F -

---W--------------M------ -----

----------- S ---------------

to

------------- G -----------

----------------------------

----------------------------

------ D ---------- D ------

-- F --------- M ------------

-------- M --------- W ------

-----W----- S -- M----- F --

Does this make sense as a transition?

[baddragon62]

If you want more direct help upload a PKM and I'll show you in your own PKM's why the attack doesn't work like it should and will be inconsistent even with the changes you've made.

Cleon, that would be fantastic. How do I upload this file?

[baddragon62]

It might be just one or two players who no longer perfectly suit things. Ive experienced it myself. An "upgrade" of a better player actually might not have the same PPM's or a subtle difference in an attribute you didnt look at, and it knocks the balance out just slightly. It might only make a 10% difference to your teams performance, but thats often enough to go from champions to third.

After re reading this thread again, I decided to go back to some of my old games from the championship years. I noted that my midfield players were on opposite sides and had different roles now. I swapped them and did a bit of rejigging of some roles and we have begun to flow better.

This is my current tactic.

----------------------- GK (D) ------------------------

-------- WB(S) -- CD(D) -- CD (D) -- WB(A) -------

-- WM(A) -- BtB(S) -- DLP(D) -- AP(A) -- W(S) --

------------------------ CF(S) -------------------------

Team Instructions:

Push Higher Up

Drill Crosses

Work Ball Into Box

Shorter Passing

Player Instructions:

CF - Roam from Position, Move into Channels

WM(A) - Cut inside with ball

BtB(S) & AP(A) - Close Down More

WB(A) - Stay Wider, Get Further Forward

GK - Distribute to Defenders

[Jambo98]

Have to say, i dont think that tactic would be as effective as the other one you posted.

Right away, you have 2 less players getting into the box - The CM(a) and WM(s) (to some extent, depending on the player) would look to get into goal scoring positions. The AP(a) and W(s) will not. That leaves your CF(s) now more isolated.

However if its working, then its working

[hugorafael]

If you want more direct help upload a PKM and I'll show you in your own PKM's why the attack doesn't work like it should and will be inconsistent even with the changes you've made.

Hi Cleon, I am in the same situation as baddragon62. I'm using the system created by Jambo98 too, 1st half of the season was great but now I feel the system/tactic reached a plateau level. I'm playing with Newcastle 4-5-1 and I lost the last match against Chelsea by 3-0 and dropped to 2nd in league table.

Here is my best Team

----------------------- GK (D) ------------------------ (Krul)

-------- CWB(A) -- CD(D) -- CD (D) -- CWB(A) ------- (Janmaat, Coloccini, Thelander, Haidara)

-- WM(A) -- DLP(S) -- CM(A) -- DLP(S) -- WM(A) --(Cabella, W.Hughes, Sissoko, D.Pereira, M. Jojic)

------------------------ F9(S) -------------------------(Azoye)

Mentality : Standard

Fluidity : Very Fluid

TI : Push Higher up, Close more Down, Short Pass, Play out of Defense, Pass into Space, Higher Tempo

Inside this dropbox folder you will find the PKM file against chelsea and the profile pictures of every player that played in this match along with the formation vs formation picture an match stats.

Jambo98 can you also analyze what am I doing wrong?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jaufefpqs2ye6jl/AAA1vi2RvpjYiEnp_4cMjpCHa?dl=0

[RTHerringbone]

Could you create a new thread please hugorafael? It's not really fair to hijack baddragon62's thread.

[hugorafael]

Could you create a new thread please hugorafael? It's not really fair to hijack baddragon62's thread.

Sure! Sorry baddragon62.

[baddragon62]

Could you create a new thread please hugorafael? It's not really fair to hijack baddragon62's thread.

I feel soooo violated!!!! No worries mate!

[baddragon62]

Here is a link to the first four games of the new season

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ztuodvndug1xqkr/AAC_kVkSgguHDEBSsipHm60na?dl=0

These are for FM 14...

[deserter]

I watched the game against Man U. From what I can see, you need one of your midfielders moving ahead of the ball. That didn't happen very often, but when it did you were much more dangerous. This movement needs to be consistent.

I'm not telling you how to do that, but it's what you should be looking at, in my opinion.

[baddragon62]

I watched the game against Man U. From what I can see, you need one of your midfielders moving ahead of the ball. That didn't happen very often, but when it did you were much more dangerous. This movement needs to be consistent.

I'm not telling you how to do that, but it's what you should be looking at, in my opinion.

Thanks for the comment deserter.

I have noticed this as well. I had the choice of two players for the left sided AP(A) role, and both were injured. I swapped my BtB midfielder into this role, and he has been electric since then - 29 games, 8 goals and 10 assists. It's his PPM's of "Plays One-Twos", "Run through centre", and "runs with ball often" which seem to make the difference.

Instead of sitting in the hole, he will take off and run at the defence from deep. The fact that he is set as an AP means that people look for him as a pass outlet which means he gets the ball more often. It also seems to act as a restraint on his PPM's as a BtB midfielder he seemed to be in the box too much.

Jambo was right - it is the PPM's that make of break this formation.

[Jambo98]

Glad you got it working, but next time worth mentioning that it is FM14 a bit earlier The games arent hugely different, but there are differences which might impact the advice

I havent been able to look at the PKM's as i dont have 14 installed im afraid

[baddragon62]

Glad you got it working, but next time worth mentioning that it is FM14 a bit earlier The games arent hugely different, but there are differences which might impact the advice )

I thought That sticking FM14 in the title was sufficently early - I would happily bow to those with superior wisdom if there is a spot ahead of that in the post :lol::lol::lol:

All kidding aside, I really appreciate the openness and willingness for people on here to share their advice. It really helps us uneducated ones learn!

[Cleon]

I thought That sticking FM14 in the title was sufficently early - I would happily bow to those with superior wisdom if there is a spot ahead of that in the post :lol::lol::lol:

All kidding aside, I really appreciate the openness and willingness for people on here to share their advice. It really helps us uneducated ones learn!

I'm away at the minute and only have FM15 on my work steam account so I can't view the matches you uploaded just yet. I will once I'm back in a few days though.

[Jambo98]

haha, oh dear i did miss that........blame all the numbers together!

Sorry fella!

[baddragon62]

Interestingly I am noticing that my DLP(D) is not dropping deep enough and is allowing the oppositons DLF to have space in front of the defence.

Of the CM(D) and DLP(D) which is the role designed to sit deeper on defence? I have tried both and cant see a whole lot of difference. Or would I be better playing a 4-1-4-1 against teems that seen to be exploiting this gap?

[Jambo98]

I think CM(D) probably has slightly more closing down than DLP(d), so would likely not solve the problem (as he would be more drawn into midfield to win the ball).

I suppose it depends what you expect the DLP to do in terms of closing space. HE is in the midfield strata here, so you are not talking about/expecting anchor man type behavior. I dont really expect my DLP to be the one dealing with an opposing striker - I trust my CB to do that and using a high line dictates that in general play there is not much space between the lines. The DLP both acts as a deterrent to midfield runners, and also by holding position very well, prevent big spaces in the transition phase when we lose the ball.

With this setup (the 451 with DLP(d)), the DLP actually drops deeper when you are in possession than when you are out of it i find. It goes back to the fact that formation is your defensive shape, roles and duties create your attacking/transition shape.

Would be interesting to see the examples of where you think the space is being exploited - As i say, playing higher should limit it, and beyond that i am reasonably happy to let opposition have the ball there - the solid midfield, including back-tracking WM tends to mean that there is little they can do other than take a long shot or lose possession to me

Caveat again being this is based on 15, and i never used this setup at all in 14.