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How did I not qualify from Champions League Group G??

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Went into the last game against Athletico Madrid needing to win and hoping the result between FCP and Shakhtar went my way. Beat Athletico 4-1 so had 9 points as did FCP who went through after beating Shakhtar, however I can not quite understand how?!

Final table

________________________________PLD_____W_____D_____L_____F_____A_____GD_________PTS

ATHLETICO_______________________6_______3_____1______2____12_____7_____+5_________10

FCP_____________________________6_______3_____0______3____9______13____-4__________9

WEST HAM_______________________6_______3_____0______3___13______10____+3__________9

SHAKHTAR_______________________6_______2_____1______3____7______11____-4___________7

Previous results

FCP 2 WEST HAM 1

WEST HAM 3 FCP 2

Rules

Results between teams

Goal difference

Goals scored

Coefficient

So a win each between us and FCP on the head to head with both teams scoring 4 goals and conceding 4 goals.

I have a better goal difference and more goals scored so how on earth didn't I qualify?

I can only possibly put it down to the fact FCP scored two at my place and I scored only one at theirs in some sort of away goal rule although can't find anything in the rules re that.

Any ideas as seems a tad harsh!!

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away goals is the 4th tiebreaker
Not sure how you figure that out, away goals form part of the primary decider of results between teams. The aggregate score is 4-4 with Porto being given the advantage due to their 2 away goals against West Ham's single away goal.

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This is the rule straight from the UEFA handbook IRL. Even after reading it I am none the wiser.

Rules a to d seem to imply results between the two teams in question. However if you read rule e it actually reads that rules a to d actually apply to group games in general but then if you read rule f and g it doesn't suggest that!!

First time I read it it looked liked I should have qualified on goal difference for the group. Really bad wording unless I am being a total numpty!!

7.06 If two or more teams are equal on points on completion of the group matches, the following criteria are applied to determine the rankings (in descending order):

a) higher number of points obtained in the group matches played among the teams in question;

b) superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams in question;

c) higher number of goals scored in the group matches played among the teams in question;

d) higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches played among the teams in question;

e) if, after having applied criteria a) to d), two teams still have an equal ranking, criteria a) to d) are reapplied exclusively to the matches between the two teams in question to determine their final rankings. If this procedure does not lead to a decision, criteria f) to h) apply;

f) superior goal difference from all group matches played;

g) higher number of goals scored from all group matches played;

h) higher number of coefficient points accumulated by the club in question, as well as its association, over the previous five seasons

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Not sure how you figure that out, away goals form part of the primary decider of results between teams. The aggregate score is 4-4 with Porto being given the advantage due to their 2 away goals against West Ham's single away goal.

Sorry I just looked at the UEFA website and looked at the criteria for tiebreakers in the Champions League group stages and it said there that away goals is part of the criteria for tiebreakers

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b) superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams in question;

The bold part is key, in matches played between the two teams (Porto & West Ham) both sides have a GD of 0, this means you move to decider C which is also tied as it's just 2 sides so the outcome will always be the same a B, we now move to decider D which Porto win.

Decider C can only come into play when it's 3 or more teams tied on points.

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Unfortunate as if it had been real life I would have qualified.; Below the Qualification Rules for the UEFA Champions' League......

7.06 If two or more teams are equal on points on completion of the group matches, the following criteria are applied to determine the rankings (in descending order):

a) higher number of points obtained in the group matches played among the teams in question;

b) superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams in question;

c) higher number of goals scored in the group matches played among the teams in question;

d) higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches played among the teams in question;

e) if, after having applied criteria a) to d), two teams still have an equal ranking, criteria a) to d) are reapplied exclusively to the matches between the two teams in question to determine their final rankings. If this procedure does not lead to a decision, criteria f) to h) apply;

f) superior goal difference from all group matches played;

g) higher number of goals scored from all group matches played;

h) higher number of coefficient points accumulated by the club in question, as well as its association, over the previous five seasons

So put simply I would have qualified on goal difference......

It is the bolded part that got you letter c does not apply because it is only the games between Porto and West Ham that count

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Unfortunate as if it had been real life I would have qualified.; Below the Qualification Rules for the UEFA Champions' League......

7.06 If two or more teams are equal on points on completion of the group matches, the following criteria are applied to determine the rankings (in descending order):

a) higher number of points obtained in the group matches played among the teams in question;

b) superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams in question;

c) higher number of goals scored in the group matches played among the teams in question;

d) higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches played among the teams in question;

e) if, after having applied criteria a) to d), two teams still have an equal ranking, criteria a) to d) are reapplied exclusively to the matches between the two teams in question to determine their final rankings. If this procedure does not lead to a decision, criteria f) to h) apply;

f) superior goal difference from all group matches played;

g) higher number of goals scored from all group matches played;

h) higher number of coefficient points accumulated by the club in question, as well as its association, over the previous five seasons

So put simply I would have qualified on goal difference......

You would not have qualified. The language is a little bit unclear perhaps, but the tiebreakers only apply to matches between or among the teams tied on points. Also known as a "mini-league". Breaking it down:

a) You and Porto each gained three points in your two games against each other.

b) You and Porto each scored four goals so the goal difference is zero.

c) You and Porto each scored four goals so still tied.

d) Porto scored two goals at your place and you only scored one goal at their place, so you lose out here.

e) This applies to tiebreakers among three teams. Once those tiebreakers have been applied with all three teams involved, and two out of the three teams are still tied, the tiebreakers revert back to the first one, only this time with just the two teams.

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Sorry I just looked at the UEFA website and looked at the criteria for tiebreakers in the Champions League group stages and it said there that away goals is part of the criteria for tiebreakers
I see what you were referring to, mix-up based on how FM uses a more compact method of describing the rules.

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Yeah I edited my post in slot no 5 a couple of times after reading the UEFA rules. What confused me was :

e) if, after having applied criteria a) to d), two teams still have an equal ranking, criteria a) to d) are reapplied exclusively to the matches between the two teams in question to determine their final rankings.

It's really badly worded for an official rulebook!!

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Yeah I edited my post in slot no 5 a couple of times after reading the UEFA rules. What confused me was :

e) if, after having applied criteria a) to d), two teams still have an equal ranking, criteria a) to d) are reapplied exclusively to the matches between the two teams in question to determine their final rankings.

It's really badly worded for an official rulebook!!

I agree the wording is a bit stilted perhaps. As I explained in my previous post, rule e really applies to a situation where it starts off as a three-team tiebreaker, and after the first four tiebreakers have been applied two teams (but not all three) are still tied, then it reverts back to tiebreaker a with just the two tied teams involved.

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I agree the wording is a bit stilted perhaps. As I explained in my previous post, rule e really applies to a situation where it starts off as a three-team tiebreaker, and after the first four tiebreakers have been applied two teams (but not all three) are still tied, then it reverts back to tiebreaker a with just the two tied teams involved.

Yeah I think I get it!!! Silly rule though when you think about it as really it should be goal difference as a group that decides it like it does in every other League. In this situation a team can go through on the basis of one game despite another side having a better goal difference, goals scored and goals conceded over 6 games.

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Unlucky dude. I've always found that building a team up to qualify for the Champions League, first year in I can never win the away games so I've had many situations similar to that one. On the bright side you can now possibly win the Europa League instead of getting dicked on by Barcelona.

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Yeah I think I get it!!! Silly rule though when you think about it as really it should be goal difference as a group that decides it like it does in every other League. In this situation a team can go through on the basis of one game despite another side having a better goal difference, goals scored and goals conceded over 6 games.

Sorry dude, I wasn't trying to insult your intelligence or anything like that--I misread your post as you were still confused.

That's kind of the eternal question though, isn't it, what tiebreakers should take precedence. I remember reading a debate some time back about Premier League tiebreakers, what should happen if two teams were tied on points, Team A had beaten Team B head-to-head both times but Team B had a superior goal difference in the league. One side argued that Team A had proven themselves better than Team B on the pitch, but the other side argued that Team B proved themselves better against the rest of the league, and should we just ignore the whole rest of the season just for two games? Interesting philosophical question.

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Sorry dude, I wasn't trying to insult your intelligence or anything like that--I misread your post as you were still confused.

That's kind of the eternal question though, isn't it, what tiebreakers should take precedence. I remember reading a debate some time back about Premier League tiebreakers, what should happen if two teams were tied on points, Team A had beaten Team B head-to-head both times but Team B had a superior goal difference in the league. One side argued that Team A had proven themselves better than Team B on the pitch, but the other side argued that Team B proved themselves better against the rest of the league, and should we just ignore the whole rest of the season just for two games? Interesting philosophical question.

No need to apologise thanks for your help appreciate it.

It is an interesting debate. Didn't think about it before the tie as to be honest I knew I had the better goal difference and assumed that is what they used as qualification. Interestingly though it does beg the question on how the players would feel IRL. Say the last game was a walkover really for FCP and barring a disaster they couldn't lose that game, so West Ham's players knew that no matter what they did result or goals wise in that last game against Atletico it didn't matter anyway because of the two previous results against FCP. It technically kind of devalues the last game to an extent.

In my case without looking at the rules I was hoping for either a draw or a FCP win as Shakhtar would have gone through if they had beaten FCP. I got my wish but overlooked the rulebook!!

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I quite like it in a Champions League sense. In a long league season, it doesn't make as much sense, as you've got 38 games to play, and you shouldn't be deciding your position over two of them. However, in a 6 team group IMO it should be head to head - the team that performed better between the two of them will go through, with all other results the same - how is that not the best way to do it?

Should say, despite my closing statement, it is just my opinion. Results may vary.

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I quite like it in a Champions League sense. In a long league season, it doesn't make as much sense, as you've got 38 games to play, and you shouldn't be deciding your position over two of them. However, in a 6 team group IMO it should be head to head - the team that performed better between the two of them will go through, with all other results the same - how is that not the best way to do it?

Should say, despite my closing statement, it is just my opinion. Results may vary.

That's a solid point. In a 38-game season there's much less chance of an outlier result making the difference. In a six-game group, one hammering because half your first team managed to get dead legs would skew things greatly.

My opinion is the away-goals thing is a bit of an arcane rule at this point--and not just because Arsenal keep getting knocked out in the round-of-16 each season :D . But dem's the rules, dem's what we gots to live with.

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