How important is the Finishing stat for a striker?

[CybrSlydr]

Just curious what the consensus is. It sometimes feels like it has no bearing at all.

[Cleon]

It's only the ability to hit the target, so it is important but not the be and end all. You can still have a striker with single digits and he can still be a scoring machine as like with everything in FM, one single attribute isn't that important but rather, his attributes as a whole are much more important.

[Nocuous]

It does make a difference. I think of it as being more important for converting half chances in and around the box than clear cut chances. The percentage increase for converting clear cut chances for a striker with 20 finishing as opposed to 15 will be marginal however those chances that need a really crisp shot that hits a corner to beat the keeper, that's where the clinical striker prevails. So if your team is about carving defences open thrugh passing and creating lots of clear cut chances, finishing isn't the be all end all of a striker. However if your more about getting the ball in the mixer and creating havoc in the box, a top quality finisher can pull some rabbits out of the hat in those scenarios.

[Cleon]

It does make a difference. I think of it as being more important for converting half chances in and around the box than clear cut chances. The percentage increase for converting clear cut chances for a striker with 20 finishing as opposed to 15 will be marginal however those chances that need a really crisp shot that hits a corner to beat the keeper, that's where the clinical striker prevails. So if your team is about carving defences open thrugh passing and creating lots of clear cut chances, finishing isn't the be all end all of a striker. However if your more about getting the ball in the mixer and creating havoc in the box, a top quality finisher can pull some rabbits out of the hat in those scenarios.

Finishing isn't the players ability to score though. In fact the bolded bit is down to anticipation, decisions, composure and technique and nothing to do with finishing at all.

[Nocuous]

You say that but higher finishing meaning more likely to shoot on target will effect a player's ability to score goals. It's those half chances that are difficult to get on target where a player with superior finishing will just about get it inside the post whereas a less clinical finisher, it might just go a centremete wide. The Anticipation Decisions and everything will make him see the best opportunity for goal, and techique plays a part just like it does with everything else on ball, but a better finisher will be more likely to score those because of the greater ability to hit the target..

[Cleon]

You say that but higher finishing meaning more likely to shoot on target will effect a player's ability to score goals. It's those half chances that are difficult to get on target where a player with superior finishing will just about get it inside the post whereas a less clinical finisher, it might just go a centremete wide. The Anticipation Decisions and everything will make him see the best opportunity for goal, and techique plays a part just like it does with everything else on ball, but a better finisher will be more likely to score those because of the greater ability to hit the target..

No it doesn't translate that higher = more goals. Half chances require better mental stats as it all happens quickly, it's the mental aspects that are more important in those instances not his ability to hit the target. Finishing is nothing more than his ability to know where the goal is, that has nothing to do with how he places his shot or when he takes it etc. That all comes down to other stats. You can have someone with 20 finishing and score less than someone with 9 for finishing. It's not as clear or black and white as you are making out. You seem to be saying higher finishing in turn produces more goals which is wrong and inaccurate. Plus finishing only matters inside the box not outside of it. It's nothing to do with clear cut or half chances at all.

[santy001]

Finishing is just how good he is at scoring when given an opportunity. So much else has an effect that as Cleon said it's not so much of a deciding factor. From the descriptions I've always been given though, it in no way directly relates to the likeliness or quality or a players shooting.

[Äktsjon Männ]

I think it's pretty simple. If you put two players in an ideal goal scoring situation, the one with higher finishing will put more shots on target. However a player with poor decisions/composure will shoot too early/late, one with poor anticipation/off the ball won't be near the right place at all, one with poor agility/balance won't get his body set up right/quickly enough and one with poor technique won't have the variety to do anything other than blast it straight at goal. So it's not like finishing doesn't matter but IMO it's much more important to be able to put yourself in a good situation to score.

[CybrSlydr]

Interesting. It appears I've given Finishing too high an importance when looking for strikers from what you folks are saying.

[santy001]

The important stats vary enormously depending on the formation you are playing though. To use an example I play with a front 3, the two wide strikers need to be fast runners, so the main stats I look for are pace & acceleration, after that I then look for the more conventional striker stats so anticipation and off the ball come next so they're in or attacking the right places, then composure and vision so they can pick/do the right thing and work down like that.

Meanwhile, the central striker is built very differently, anticipation, composure and work rate are what I look for mostly but then high stats pretty much across the board mentally. So in the middle I've got a 37 year old Falcao still hitting in 30+ goals a season. Before him though it was a retrained AMC called Josef Husbauer.

[CybrSlydr]

Indeed, it appears I DO put too much emphasis on finishing.

[kingjericho]

I always rather have good composure and off the ball than finishing. A good finisher will hit the target, period. A composed striker will score when it matters.

[Rashidi]

Discussing attributes in isolation is pointless. If I were a LLM side then maybe finishing may be very important but never in isolation. I would look at composure, balance as well. If I want him to be a part of my teams style of playing. Then I would add anticipation, passing crossing teamwork. In fact my top scorers have never come with anything more than 15 in finishing. I place a lot more value in the secondary attributes

[louissiscool]

Discussing attributes in isolation is pointless. If I were a LLM side then maybe finishing may be very important but never in isolation. I would look at composure, balance as well. If I want him to be a part of my teams style of playing. Then I would add anticipation, passing crossing teamwork. In fact my top scorers have never come with anything more than 15 in finishing. I place a lot more value in the secondary attributes

I know this question is slightly off topic but it kind of links in, when you are selecting penalty and set piece takers do you look at more then one attribute ? Like for instance a penalty taker do you take into account composure and finishing and not just penalty taking?

And if this is the case what other attributes do you need to consider for the other set peice takers?

[santy001]

I know this question is slightly off topic but it kind of links in, when you are selecting penalty and set piece takers do you look at more then one attribute ? Like for instance a penalty taker do you take into account composure and finishing and not just penalty taking?

And if this is the case what other attributes do you need to consider for the other set peice takers?

Need to consider is perhaps the wrong way of describing it, but flair can help a player do something more unexpected, vision, technique, composure always helps when the pressure is on.

The general thing to remember is there is no situation really where just 1 attribute is taking into account. Sometimes, even a potentially positive attribute (such as flair) can be a negative in the wrong circumstances within the game.

[Hootieleece]

Discussing attributes in isolation is pointless. If I were a LLM side then maybe finishing may be very important but never in isolation. I would look at composure, balance as well. If I want him to be a part of my teams style of playing. Then I would add anticipation, passing crossing teamwork. In fact my top scorers have never come with anything more than 15 in finishing. I place a lot more value in the secondary attributes

No wonder my Advanced Forward with 17 finishing can't find the net.........even though those secondary attributes named aren't bad (9-12)

[Mosfine]

Finishing is how he places shots and it translate to more goals. If you discuss this way you should say the same about marking with defenders or handling/reflexes with goalkeepers or passing/creativity for playmakers etc...

Finishing is the most critical attribute for a striker but no one says that he's necessary a goal machine. You should argue too then that a forward needs dribbling to be able to create himself chances, first touch to be able to control a pass in area and being able to have a "kickable" ball....but those are all collateral that completes a player and you'll end up pointing out 15 important attributes.

If you're looking for someone who can be effective in the last 22 yards, it's the most important attribute. Of course it needs balance and composure to take full advantage of it in most situations for example but it makes the difference.

[Cleon]

Finishing is how he places shots and it translate to more goals

It's not, his its his ability to get a shot on target nothing more. How he places shots is down to multiple attributes like anticipation, decisions, technique, flair etc. It's noting at all to do with the finishing attribute.

[Benoit2]

To put it simplistic, for clear cut chances I would look more towards composure, for half-chances to finishing.

You dont need good finishing for a ccc. Its called clear cut for a reason. Just keep your cool and you should score. On the other hand, half chances dont carry too much mental pressure. But the ability to hit accurate balls in tight spaces is what sets the great strikers like Agüero etc apart. The score from any angle, any situation type of players.

[Mosfine]

It's not, his its his ability to get a shot on target nothing more. How he places shots is down to multiple attributes like anticipation, decisions, technique, flair etc. It's noting at all to do with the finishing attribute.

This is a simple football concept, not just a FM thing, there's nothing to invent or to be naive about.

The player’s ability to put the ball in the back of the net when presented with a chance. A high Finishing attribute will put the shot on target a majority of the time as a bare minimum but compared to a player with poorer Finishing will find the places where the goalkeeper can’t save it. This is purely the ability of the player to perform an accurate shot – Composure and Decisions will also impart on the ability of a player to score consistently.

It's not just getting or not getting the goal.

Take 2 players and let them shoot the goal from different spots and in different position or situations. It's a technical skill, the one with more finishing will be able to kick better and being lethal in a way that the other can't. No matter how cool you are 1 vs 1, you can't and won't kick it there.

Put it this way, the lower, the smaller the goal and the possible targets are for the kicker. If shooting accuracy and technique is not how you place shots and doesn't lead to more goals I don't even know what sport are we talking about.

Decisions, anticipation etc...are other factors. When you decide to do something you also need to be able to do it.

[Cleon]

It's a technical skill, the one with more finishing will be able to kick better and being lethal in a way that the other can't.

No he won't, how good he can actually kick it and how good he is with the ball at his feet is down to technique not his finishing attribute. Higher finishing does not = a more lethal striker. This is why you can't really talk about attributes in isolation because to even do something so basic there are many more attributes at play. Someone can have high finishing yet if they have low decision making it's wasted as they'll shoot at the wrong times, so it doesn't translate to higher finishing equates to a more lethal striker. For someone to be lethal he first and foremost needs to have the correct supply then he needs to have the correct attributes that give him the best chance of scoring.

[santy001]

Mosfine, you are wrong as are others who've argued the same kind of point. FM uses words and definitions in the context of its match engine. As a researcher we get a description of what each attribute does and finishing doesn't do what you think it does. I'm not sure if its the exact same description as available in the games manual which is floating around in the ether somewhere but generally its a pretty safe bet that the moderators of the tactical forum will have a pretty good idea what these attributes do even if they don't get the same information we do.

The best part of it all is, even knowing what all these stats mean and knowing what the stats are for the entire squad visible and hidden - you can still get it horribly wrong when it comes to tactics.

[Nocuous]

People might be fretting about definitions of what exactly certain attributes do with in the match engine and how it effects things and whatnot, but this is one thing I'm absolutely 100% sure of. If you take a striker who is pretty good at his level but has a low finishing attribute (let's just say a 150 CA striker in the Premier League with 10 finishing). If you use an in game editor to give that same player 20 for finishing, but keep everything else the same (you'll have to adjust the CA too naturally), that player will be a better goalscorer on average score more goals. By how much or little can be debated, and if someone is really curious, they can always run the experiment, but I've played too much FM over the years to be convinced that finishing has no impact whatsoever on how effective a player is as a goalscorer.

[HUNT3R]

Nobody is saying it has "no impact". They're saying take other attributes into account as well as there's more to scoring goals than purely Finishing.

[RTHerringbone]

I think that people generally pay far too much attention to individual attributes, PIs and TIs. The ME takes a whole raft of inputs, mashes them together and spits out an output. It is useful to have a vague idea of what each of these components do, but you can't state with any certainty that just one component will yield a specific output, because it entirely depends on how many other components are affecting things at that point in time.

The long and short of it? Don't over analyse things, it causes more procrastination and confusion than is helpful.

[Mosfine]

I'm sorry Cleon, if we're talking about shooting accuracy, find places where the goalkeeper can’t save it, it's about how you kick and being lethal in different ways, it's impossible I can change my mind, it's a basic soccer concept and I can't see why FM doesn't reproduce that.

Never stated myself that a player with high finishing will take awesome shots consistently most of time, never wanted to mean that.

I understand I (I don't want if that you is single person referred to me or plural ) have not to talk about attributes in isolation and you don't have to explain to me about decision factor, I know all of that.

Mosfine, you are wrong as are others who've argued the same kind of point. FM uses words and definitions in the context of its match engine. As a researcher we get a description of what each attribute does and finishing doesn't do what you think it does. I'm not sure if its the exact same description as available in the games manual which is floating around in the ether somewhere but generally its a pretty safe bet that the moderators of the tactical forum will have a pretty good idea what these attributes do even if they don't get the same information we do.

The best part of it all is, even knowing what all these stats mean and knowing what the stats are for the entire squad visible and hidden - you can still get it horribly wrong when it comes to tactics.

Thanks, santy, but not my fault.

The player’s ability to put the ball in the back of the net when presented with a chance. A high Finishing attribute will put the shot on target a majority of the time as a bare minimum but compared to a player with poorer Finishing will find the places where the goalkeeper can’t save it. This is purely the ability of the player to perform an accurate shot – Composure and Decisions will also impart on the ability of a player to score consistently.

This is the official description. http://www.footballmanager.com/content/technical

If it's not this, than the manual and the official description is completely wrong. Not my or anyone else fault.

I can contact some other researcher but I'm glad that you're here, so I'll ask to you.

If I remember right finishing has an higher weight than technique i.e., why is that? What's the reasoning behind it?

Not sure I have sufficient time, but I have an idea on how to help and stimulate the discussion, it's interesting.

[Äktsjon Männ]

People might be fretting about definitions of what exactly certain attributes do with in the match engine and how it effects things and whatnot, but this is one thing I'm absolutely 100% sure of. If you take a striker who is pretty good at his level but has a low finishing attribute (let's just say a 150 CA striker in the Premier League with 10 finishing). If you use an in game editor to give that same player 20 for finishing, but keep everything else the same (you'll have to adjust the CA too naturally), that player will be a better goalscorer on average score more goals. By how much or little can be debated, and if someone is really curious, they can always run the experiment, but I've played too much FM over the years to be convinced that finishing has no impact whatsoever on how effective a player is as a goalscorer.

No one's saying it doesn't have an impact. If you take two otherwise identical players the one with higher finishing will naturally score more goals. They'll make the same decisions and have the same technical/physical capabilities except one can get more shots on target.

The point is that if your player is weak at other key stats he won't score many despite his high finishing. Finishing in isolation means how accurate the player is in ideal scoring situation. The conditions are never ideal in a football match though so other attributes tend to have more weight.

[MSCCG]

I believe that the senior members are correct in asserting that stats in isolation do not matter, and that events in the game are due to a combination of multiple factors and also taking into account the situation.

To be honest though, I do sense that after years of this type of discussion a lot of them have developed some level of cognitive dissonance regarding this matter. The broader explanation makes sense. However, the further we get into this issue and offer more explanation regarding this line of thinking, I can see cracks appear in the logic (from ontological, psychological and practical perspectives), and negative implications regarding tactical construction and training later in the game.

It is hard to ignore the mental gymnastics that some members go through to explain all this when somebody asks such a fundamental and basic question. In the end, it always boils down to "the stat doesn't actually mean the stat, you have to look at a whole bunch of other stats and if you are lucky we are going to bother to list five or six stats that may or may not come into play depending on the situation and we either have no way to prove this definitively or cannot speak about this publicly". You can understand why this will lead to confusion and frustration.

[HUNT3R]

It's because in-match situations need context. In a perfect world, in the perfect scenario, a 20 Finishing striker will shoot perfectly every time and will finish better, every time, than a 14 Finishing striker. That's the problem though. Context.

His ability to finish will be affected by his composure. Being closed down heavily? High pressure match? Dying minutes of the game and this would win it? etc etc... it will affect him.

It will be affected by his decision-making. Where does he choose to place the ball? When does he shoot? etc etc

It'll be affected by his technique. Is he attempting a first time shot? Volley? Half-volley? Outside foot shot? etc etc

Consistency, big-match temperament, which foot he's shooting with etc will all affect how well he finishes.

There may be more that I'm forgetting too.

[Nocuous]

This might sound ridiculous, but I feel like a good way of describing the finish attribute might be 'how well the player knows where the goal is'. Maybe I was just a completely rubbish player when I played football, but if I was lining up a shot, my eyes were focused on the ball, there were many times where I'd execute the shot perfectly to what I was trying to do, but the shot would be centre-metres wide as I'd slightly misjudged exactly where the goal was while taking my shot. So maybe there's something to be said for finishing having nothing to do with execution of a shot relative do what the player is attempting, but all to do with having the goalscorers instinct of getting the angles right and putting the ball both on target and also out of the keepers reach.

[MSCCG]

It's because in-match situations need context. In a perfect world, in the perfect scenario, a 20 Finishing striker will shoot perfectly every time and will finish better, every time, than a 14 Finishing striker. That's the problem though. Context.

His ability to finish will be affected by his composure. Being closed down heavily? High pressure match? Dying minutes of the game and this would win it? etc etc... it will affect him.

It will be affected by his decision-making. Where does he choose to place the ball? When does he shoot? etc etc

It'll be affected by his technique. Is he attempting a first time shot? Volley? Half-volley? Outside foot shot? etc etc

Consistency, big-match temperament, which foot he's shooting with etc will all affect how well he finishes.

There may be more that I'm forgetting too.

I understand this perfectly; these variables are only too true in the real world. However, glaring problems occur in the reasoning when you consider that given that this is a computer simulation, 1) how many categories of stats there are in the game, and 2) the computational power that it actually takes to consider all of this context. The second is a matter of speculation but I don't believe that the game can calculate so many variables at once, in almost real time. You listed finishing, composure, decision-making, technique, consistency, temperament, footedness. Obviously you add in the context - however many variables there are during a given moment on a given match day. You have the field, the time, the location, physics. Then you have the other players. The goalkeeper and the defenders and any teammates around them. And obviously random chance. Given that each stat has at least a scale of 19 and assuming that each point makes some measurable change in the calculation, that is something upwards of trillions of different outcomes that may occur just in a finishing move. There are not enough animations in the game to make this happen (and don't forget the sim matches), and not enough computational power in a regular computer. Plus, let's not pretend that we don't see very similar things, if not exactly the same action patterns occurring multiple times during a regular season and from this we can infer that the calculations that are being made in the game are not as complicated as we like to think it is.

This brings me back to point 1. If I was a good programmer knowing that there are a limited number of animations, I would do anything I could to reduce the number of variables required for a move. Or use a random number generator and modulate it by blocking large chunks of the map and player locations into "context", then using those key stats. I believe that the game developers, and many of the members here are confused about complementary variables versus overlapping variables. Complementary variables add to the power of a modelling equation. Overlapping variables reduce power. To use an example, let's say I am evaluating how good a restaurant is. I make a list of criteria for the restaurant to be judged, and I have one category for the yummyness of the food. Then I list a second category, which is how dope the food tastes. You don't need both, even if I can argue that they mean slightly different things. This is how I see the stat of finishing. It is either a problem of the name of the stat, or the game is using multiple counts of "similar enough variables to be considered the same" in a single calculation, which is scientifically inaccurate.

In terms of the naming of the stat, "finishing" does imply that the player is able to not just shoot, but to score. I believe that it is named this because it includes scoring with your head and hence it is misleading to name it "shooting". The problem with using stats that differ so much in specificity is that it puts a huge burden on the real world scout. I highly doubt that the excellent team that scout for the game are given any clear instructions on how the stats actually interact to form a player's overall finishing profile (otherwise this would have been leaked I'm sure). To do this, it requires that the scout almost become a professional psychologist - to know how good a player's decision making is, composure and everything. That's no problem, I believe in their ability to do a great scouting job. The thing is, if a player has great decision making in the penalty box, but poor decision making outside of it, what number do you give this guy? You give him a low one of course, and you artificially raise his finishing and composure stats to make up for it (different to having a high finishing stat that includes decision making in the box). OR, you could have his decision making high, and lower everything else. Which means, that the stats are arbitrary and based were there the player's performance in the game is reasonable, as some scouts readily admit to doing. So, this means that looking the stats is actually pointless, because it is never clear what weighting each stat adds to the calculation and whether some of these stats are even taken into account at all. The result of this is that the difficulty of this game is artificially modified by this "mystery" aspect. It is uncertainty masked as sophistication. As much as I enjoy this game, this aspect is punishing and it is not of our own doing - like a blue shell in mario kart. At least the blue shell knows that it is a jerk though.

This has implications all across the game. For example, Rashidi1 just updated his excellent guide for training. It is certainly helpful. However because of the (admittedly theoretical and mostly likely just my own personal) problems with how stats are done, how do we know which stats we should be training? It's obvious that these stats are weighted differently given their CA load. So for example 2 in finishing is worth 1 composure etc. Paradoxically it means that if I want my player to finish better, I should be training him in technique rather than finishing. That's reasonable, but how can I tell for sure given the whole bunch of variables that you have listed that control scoring, that it is his technique that is failing him? Another problem is newgen creation, but it's too late to get into that for now.

Basically, all I want to know is which stats and manipulations do make a difference, and which ones are voodoo magic. It's ok that doing something in a game or in real life doesn't necessarily achieve the result that we want, but it isn't ok when it is not due to randomness but simply taking advantage of an artificially constructed ignorance. It's also a little dodgy when experts come out and try to help us play better when even they have so much trouble communicating to us 1) what a context is, and 2) which stats are used in which context. There can't be that many as I have pointed out. Sorry, rant over. I love the game and I'm still playing it anyway. I've just lost faith in the way stats are done that's all.

[Mosfine]

They'll make the same decisions and have the same technical/physical capabilities except one can get more shots on target.

I think you're slightly misunderstanding the decision attribute (and that's why I like this discussion on finishing and its understanding).

You don't have to think that same decision means they will make the same decision in a specific situation, you have to think that there is the same probability that both can take a good or the best decision possible.

In a perfect world, in the perfect scenario, a 20 Finishing striker will shoot perfectly every time and will finish better, every time, than a 14 Finishing striker. That's the problem though. Context.

Let's try an alternate interpretation, tell me if you like it, it's another point of view.

In order to score you can perform n successful shots: the 20 has an higher probability to be able to perform any of these n successful shots (of course there is technique involved but in a far less extent), while the 14 has a lower probability.

[HUNT3R]

I understand this perfectly; these variables are only too true in the real world. However, glaring problems occur in the reasoning when you consider that given that this is a computer simulation, 1) how many categories of stats there are in the game, and 2) the computational power that it actually takes to consider all of this context. The second is a matter of speculation but I don't believe that the game can calculate so many variables at once, in almost real time. You listed finishing, composure, decision-making, technique, consistency, temperament, footedness. Obviously you add in the context - however many variables there are during a given moment on a given match day. You have the field, the time, the location, physics. Then you have the other players. The goalkeeper and the defenders and any teammates around them. And obviously random chance. Given that each stat has at least a scale of 19 and assuming that each point makes some measurable change in the calculation, that is something upwards of trillions of different outcomes that may occur just in a finishing move. There are not enough animations in the game to make this happen (and don't forget the sim matches), and not enough computational power in a regular computer. Plus, let's not pretend that we don't see very similar things, if not exactly the same action patterns occurring multiple times during a regular season and from this we can infer that the calculations that are being made in the game are not as complicated as we like to think it is.

This brings me back to point 1. If I was a good programmer knowing that there are a limited number of animations, I would do anything I could to reduce the number of variables required for a move. Or use a random number generator and modulate it by blocking large chunks of the map and player locations into "context", then using those key stats. I believe that the game developers, and many of the members here are confused about complementary variables versus overlapping variables. Complementary variables add to the power of a modelling equation. Overlapping variables reduce power. To use an example, let's say I am evaluating how good a restaurant is. I make a list of criteria for the restaurant to be judged, and I have one category for the yummyness of the food. Then I list a second category, which is how dope the food tastes. You don't need both, even if I can argue that they mean slightly different things. This is how I see the stat of finishing. It is either a problem of the name of the stat, or the game is using multiple counts of "similar enough variables to be considered the same" in a single calculation, which is scientifically inaccurate.

-------------------------------------

Basically, all I want to know is which stats and manipulations do make a difference, and which ones are voodoo magic. It's ok that doing something in a game or in real life doesn't necessarily achieve the result that we want, but it isn't ok when it is not due to randomness but simply taking advantage of an artificially constructed ignorance. It's also a little dodgy when experts come out and try to help us play better when even they have so much trouble communicating to us 1) what a context is, and 2) which stats are used in which context. There can't be that many as I have pointed out. Sorry, rant over. I love the game and I'm still playing it anyway. I've just lost faith in the way stats are done that's all.

The ME is massively complex. You're underestimating processor capabilities and the ME's complexity. Sure, the animations may not be all that varied, but some of us can still "see" more context in match scenarios that others can. That's because it's there. The attributes do matter, which is what we've been trying to say for this entire thread.

[HUNT3R]

Let's try an alternate interpretation, tell me if you like it, it's another point of view.

In order to score you can perform n successful shots: the 20 has an higher probability to be able to perform any of these n successful shots (of course there is technique involved but in a far less extent), while the 14 has a lower probability.

No interpretation needed. A 20 Finishing striker (ignoring the other variables) is more accurate than a 14 finishing striker. That's what finishing means.

[MSCCG]

The ME is massively complex. You're underestimating processor capabilities and the ME's complexity. Sure, the animations may not be all that varied, but some of us can still "see" more context in match scenarios that others can. That's because it's there. The attributes do matter, which is what we've been trying to say for this entire thread.

I just don't see how this air of certainty that you guys seem to have can be justified given how vague you are about how exactly the stats affect behaviour and results. What do you mean that some of you can "see more?" I'm not trying to sound argumentative but that was kind of my point - manufactured uncertainty disguised as sophistication. I don't want to sound like I'm bragging but I have a very high understanding about how context controls behaviour and outcome in real life, and a simulation cannot be more complex than real life. Although it can be more convoluted, in which case the aim should be to simplify?

[THOG]

This discussion has gone completely off the rails.

Finishing = general accuracy

Technique = can actually pull off more difficult types of shots - how accuracy is affected by the specific technical demands of the chosen shot

Physical Stuff = can shoot when running/being leaned on/etc - how accuracy is affected by physical conditions

Mental Stuff = makes right decision about when to shoot - his ability to pick shots that are actually easy

Low Finishing = generally misses more shots or plays them right at the keeper or doesn't put enough power into them

Low Technique = can only pull off the most basic types of shots, so higher technical demands modify accuracy to a greater extent

Low Physical = can't shoot or can't shoot accurately due to lack of coordination or loss of balance in various circumstances like running or having Robert Huth's armpit in his face

Low Mental = snatches at chances, fails to read keeper's intentions, tries to show off when he doesn't have the skill to back it up, etc.

It's really not that complicated, and it underlines the point that finishing, while important, is not the end-all/be-all. It also depends greatly on your tactics, your opponent's tactics and the type of chances that are actually being created.

[HUNT3R]

MSCCG, The Hand of God has explained it much better than I'd be able to. That's what I was getting at. I even forgot about attributes like Balance. It isn't more complicated than real life, obviously. The aim is always to try and simulate real life as best as possible.

Cheers for that, THoG.

[edtheguy]

This discussion has gone completely off the rails.

Finishing = general accuracy

Technique = can actually pull off more difficult types of shots - how accuracy is affected by the specific technical demands of the chosen shot

Physical Stuff = can shoot when running/being leaned on/etc - how accuracy is affected by physical conditions

Mental Stuff = makes right decision about when to shoot - his ability to pick shots that are actually easy

Low Finishing = generally misses more shots or plays them right at the keeper or doesn't put enough power into them

Low Technique = can only pull off the most basic types of shots, so higher technical demands modify accuracy to a greater extent

Low Physical = can't shoot or can't shoot accurately due to lack of coordination or loss of balance in various circumstances like running or having Robert Huth's armpit in his face

Low Mental = snatches at chances, fails to read keeper's intentions, tries to show off when he doesn't have the skill to back it up, etc.

It's really not that complicated, and it underlines the point that finishing, while important, is not the end-all/be-all. It also depends greatly on your tactics, your opponent's tactics and the type of chances that are actually being created.

Brilliant! Even though this pretty much just confirms things that I had already suspected and/or read elsewhere, and even though I was fully addicted to the game without it, explanations like this still greatly enhance my enjoyment of the game. Once again, thank you THOG!

[Maystor]

If technique is more important for performing an accurate shot on goal when presented with a chance, why is it not listed as one of the key attributes for Poacher or Advanced Forward roles? I'm not sure what a player's "ability to get a shot on target" really means. Surely a shot on target by itself is not really useful if it isn't any more accurate and/or more likely to beat the keeper compared to a player with lower finishing attrubute?

[Torskus77]

Well imagine the type of chances that a poacher or Advanced forward are likely to get. Running on to balls a lot, I'd imagine balance and agility would be more important than technique for that type of role.

Finishing is important because they are more likely to get the shot on target, if it's not on target then you can't score.

Composure is huge for finishing chances from my experience.

That list by Hand of God is genius, if you think about how your team plays, and what type of chances you will create, you really start to get a picture of what attributes will be important. It's not a case that finishing isn't important, it's just that there are many other factors going on. That list really simplifies it brilliantly.

[MSCCG]

This discussion has gone completely off the rails.

Finishing = general accuracy

Technique = can actually pull off more difficult types of shots - how accuracy is affected by the specific technical demands of the chosen shot

Physical Stuff = can shoot when running/being leaned on/etc - how accuracy is affected by physical conditions

Mental Stuff = makes right decision about when to shoot - his ability to pick shots that are actually easy

Low Finishing = generally misses more shots or plays them right at the keeper or doesn't put enough power into them

Low Technique = can only pull off the most basic types of shots, so higher technical demands modify accuracy to a greater extent

Low Physical = can't shoot or can't shoot accurately due to lack of coordination or loss of balance in various circumstances like running or having Robert Huth's armpit in his face

Low Mental = snatches at chances, fails to read keeper's intentions, tries to show off when he doesn't have the skill to back it up, etc.

It's really not that complicated, and it underlines the point that finishing, while important, is not the end-all/be-all. It also depends greatly on your tactics, your opponent's tactics and the type of chances that are actually being created.

MSCCG, The Hand of God has explained it much better than I'd be able to. That's what I was getting at. I even forgot about attributes like Balance. It isn't more complicated than real life, obviously. The aim is always to try and simulate real life as best as possible.

Cheers for that, THoG.

Thanks guys for the input. It is very useful to separate these facets into broad categories, and that does help a lot in terms of gameplay and how you pick forwards and set up your team. I believe that my points about nomenclature/overlapping, not being able to prove any of this (and the relative importance of the various attributes which was the original question - the influences cannot logically be equal. Plus, some stats appear to be universal modifiers so because they would apply to everything that a player does, they would not apply to any situation directly), and the mess in terms of scouting, training and newgens still stand but I guess I'm just going to have to live with that (though I am looking for a way to do some simple statistical analysis of some of the attributes to see if I can find any correlations that either support or disprove my view). Enjoy the game everyone!

[Maystor]

Finishing is important because they are more likely to get the shot on target, if it's not on target then you can't score.

Meaning everything else being equal, the higher the finishing attribute, the higher the general accuracy right? When you think of a good finisher or a lethal striker IRL, you don't really think of his shots on target percentage stats. It makes no sense to me that finishing in the game has nothing to do with, well, finishing off chances.

[Mosfine]

No interpretation needed. A 20 Finishing striker (ignoring the other variables) is more accurate than a 14 finishing striker. That's what finishing means.

You said that in a particular situation he'd shoot perfectly every time, which is different.

And THoG said what I already said, btw.