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Cleon

What Makes A Goalscorer?!

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Great thread - brilliant work put into this.

In terms of goalscoring - is anyone else struggling with breaking down the dreaded 3-3-2-1-1 formation ALOT of teams in this years edition is defaulting to? At this point (season 6, 19/20, Premier League), I face this horrible abomination of a set-up around 10-12 games a year. And every time it's the same. I DEMOLISH them in quality, pegging them back into their onwn third. Spend 70 minutes pounding their wall, before they score a fluke from a set-piece or a blunder at the back. Half of the times, I'm not even able to create anything worth mentioning against this set-up.

Any tips on getting my striker and/or widemen (inside forwards) to actually produce against this sort of idiocy?

I've not wrote about that formation but I have spoke at great length about beating teams who you pin back in their own half. Have a read of these;

Post 13, 17 and 18 in this thread http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/403153-Building-A-Tactic-From-The-Beginning-And-Maintaining-It-Long-Term

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Amazing, Cleon. I'm gonna have a look immediately. Again, you are, truly, amazing.

EDIT: The thread you linked doesn't seem to have pages. Did I misunderstand something?

EDIT 2: Nevermind. Lack of sleep getting to me. Post. Not pages. Got it.

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It might be a different position but all of the above is still applicable and what you need to do, to ensure you get goals. It's probably even more important to create space though for players who play wide when you want them to be the main scorers. That's the only real major difference. My raumdeuter scores around 30-40 goals a season because the tactic is built around him and allows him to score goals. There is no best role between inside forward and raumdeuter, it all depends on how you've set up and both are equally able to score high amounts of goals.

Like I've tried to make out throughout the entire thread, the role someone is isn't that important as anyone can and will score goals. What's important is how you build your tactic and how you channel that play to the people you want to be the main goalscorers. This is the most vital aspect of any tactic. Figure that out and anyone will score.

Thank you Cleon for your reply. Following your advice that anyone can score goals i experimented with getting a simple WM on attack duty to be my main goalscorer without any PIs except for one to specifically man-mark the opponebt's centerback to get him to be off the shoulder of the last man hoping to be a counter-attack threat adn boost his chances of scoring goals sort of as a way of channeling my team's attack through him. Was surprised to see him get a hat-trick from a test match. The tactic i used was inspired by this from cheeky-deeky's 4-5-1-0 http://strikerless.com/2015/02/08/tactical-review-cheeky-deekys-4-5-1-0/

Is this a viable way of channelling the team's attack through him or is there a better way?

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This was down on page 2, thought it deserved a little bump.

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Great info here it's gave me a lot to think about. I'm going to fully read it when I sit down later.

Can you tell me what's the difference in support provided to a lone striker from a winger - support compared to a winger - attack?

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Ignore the above post. I done some experimenting and settled on changing my lone striker to a support role. The difference in my strikers performamce and overal team performance is incredible.

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this is such a great thread and has really helped my game.

That goes for all threads on the forum actually which are started by the mods - the advice to watch games, see what is going wrong, organising your tactic, deciding how you want to play, is so important.

I won the championship at a canter with Reading with 106 points, but I didnt score a huge amount of goals. In the Prem I was 19th with 4 pts from 9 games. The chronic lack of support to my strikers was a real problem and something that I needed to improve on. So I ditched a tactic that I wasnt using and built the 4312 that rashidi1 is a keen fan of, but modified the system including TIs to my players and the difference has been immense.

I've signed Babacar and he's a real threat as a CF(A) and works very well with my F9...Now Im in 14th with 19 pts from 19 and a good chance of survival

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Great info here it's gave me a lot to think about. I'm going to fully read it when I sit down later.

Can you tell me what's the difference in support provided to a lone striker from a winger - support compared to a winger - attack?

Ignore the above post. I done some experimenting and settled on changing my lone striker to a support role. The difference in my strikers performamce and overal team performance is incredible.

It'll be different in different systems. Wingers on support will be positioned further down the pitch initially so could be more involved in play and see more of the ball. The kind of supply should be the same though, it just might happen slightly further down the field.

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this is such a great thread and has really helped my game.

That goes for all threads on the forum actually which are started by the mods - the advice to watch games, see what is going wrong, organising your tactic, deciding how you want to play, is so important.

I won the championship at a canter with Reading with 106 points, but I didnt score a huge amount of goals. In the Prem I was 19th with 4 pts from 9 games. The chronic lack of support to my strikers was a real problem and something that I needed to improve on. So I ditched a tactic that I wasnt using and built the 4312 that rashidi1 is a keen fan of, but modified the system including TIs to my players and the difference has been immense.

I've signed Babacar and he's a real threat as a CF(A) and works very well with my F9...Now Im in 14th with 19 pts from 19 and a good chance of survival

Glad to hear you are now having success :)

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finished 9th with Reading in the first season in the Prem, very happy with that. The 4312 really helped and Babacar absolutely owned it.

A few bad results towards the end of the season but this was mainly due to complacency and some injuries to key players.

Angelo Henriquez already signed up for the next season, a full assault on European qualification!

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Normally i don't really post on these kind of threads, i read them, try to understand the idea the OP is giving, and work with it.

But honestly, your recent guides (Counter Attacking, Control, and this one) have reinvented the way i play FM.

I now have a Journeyman save with Ullensakker/Kisa IL in Norway, and trying to get those guys to play some proper football has been a real pain in the *ss.

But now it's really coming together, the way i wanted, with the help of your guides.

So just, you know, keep up the good work! And i really like that you reply to almost every question that they ask you, even though, most of it, is just the same question regarding a different shape, anyway. Shout out to anyone who answers our questions, or takes time to read and try to fix our problems, just keeping posting them guides and advices people, cause we need them:brock:.

P.S. Is every guide available on your blog? Gonna start following it imediatyle.

P.S.S. Sorry for spelling mistakes, dutch dude here.

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Normally i don't really post on these kind of threads, i read them, try to understand the idea the OP is giving, and work with it.

But honestly, your recent guides (Counter Attacking, Control, and this one) have reinvented the way i play FM.

I now have a Journeyman save with Ullensakker/Kisa IL in Norway, and trying to get those guys to play some proper football has been a real pain in the *ss.

But now it's really coming together, the way i wanted, with the help of your guides.

So just, you know, keep up the good work! And i really like that you reply to almost every question that they ask you, even though, most of it, is just the same question regarding a different shape, anyway. Shout out to anyone who answers our questions, or takes time to read and try to fix our problems, just keeping posting them guides and advices people, cause we need them:brock:.

P.S. Is every guide available on your blog? Gonna start following it imediatyle.

P.S.S. Sorry for spelling mistakes, dutch dude here.

They're all on my blog yeah :)

Cheers for the kind words it's nice to know someone finds them useful :)

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Okay looking over this and I think I might have to ask for a bit of advice on making a 4-3-3 high-block work with the striking partnership.

Since there are 3 strikers I've taken one from each of the categories: Creative (DLF-S), Support (DF-S/D) & Attacking (AF) with the hope that they'll press the backline/keeper into either a mistake or a long ball which we can quickly recycle. Managing in Brazil at the moment, it seems I face the 4-2-2-2 formation a lot of the time, which helps as with a DCM that long ball is hopefully collected by us and recycled into a forward attack.

Now two thing's I've noticed, in the table above it said that the DF has "Close Down More" as a choice - doesn't seem I have that so am I missing something or is the table off?

Secondly, was this:

I’ve purposely chosen this tactic as it is very top-heavy and it lacks someone who can control the game from deep.

I'm wondering if a 4-3-3 DCM is too top heavy as when we win the ball back, our strikers are already on their defensive line. I am finding a fair bit of success with a Roaming Playmaker as he's pottering around and spreading the ball, and if the opponent is closing us down it opens up a nice gap, but teams are starting to twig onto that.

Really, then, the advice I'm asking for is where can I go from here to turn either a stolen ball into a counter attack high up the pitch, or a long ball from the opponent into quick attack while defenders/midfielders reset themselves?

--

Sorry to bombard this thread, I can always make a different one with lovely pictures if people would prefer ;)

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Okay looking over this and I think I might have to ask for a bit of advice on making a 4-3-3 high-block work with the striking partnership.

Since there are 3 strikers I've taken one from each of the categories: Creative (DLF-S), Support (DF-S/D) & Attacking (AF) with the hope that they'll press the backline/keeper into either a mistake or a long ball which we can quickly recycle. Managing in Brazil at the moment, it seems I face the 4-2-2-2 formation a lot of the time, which helps as with a DCM that long ball is hopefully collected by us and recycled into a forward attack.

Now two thing's I've noticed, in the table above it said that the DF has "Close Down More" as a choice - doesn't seem I have that so am I missing something or is the table off?

That's no longer an option on FM16 it seems :(

I'm wondering if a 4-3-3 DCM is too top heavy as when we win the ball back, our strikers are already on their defensive line. I am finding a fair bit of success with a Roaming Playmaker as he's pottering around and spreading the ball, and if the opponent is closing us down it opens up a nice gap, but teams are starting to twig onto that.

Really, then, the advice I'm asking for is where can I go from here to turn either a stolen ball into a counter attack high up the pitch, or a long ball from the opponent into quick attack while defenders/midfielders reset themselves?

The roles and duties you use really is the key to all of this. It'll only be a top heavy formation if the strikers are not dropping back. But with the use of a DF and DLF on support that shouldn't be much of an issue and you should create some nice movement. However I would worry about those games where you need width to stretch the opposition and to use the full pitch. You can find yourself very narrow to take advantage of counter attacks at times.

If you win the ball back in their half of the pitch you you already have 3 players there so they should be able to do well and cause the opposition all kinds of issues. How you support these attacks with the midfielder depends though.

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That's no longer an option on FM16 it seems :(

Quite the shame as I'm not sure he's pressing much more than another striker on "sometimes" closing down as well. I'll have to keep an eye out and rewatch my last match where he played the entire game.

The roles and duties you use really is the key to all of this. It'll only be a top heavy formation if the strikers are not dropping back. But with the use of a DF and DLF on support that shouldn't be much of an issue and you should create some nice movement. However I would worry about those games where you need width to stretch the opposition and to use the full pitch. You can find yourself very narrow to take advantage of counter attacks at times.

If you win the ball back in their half of the pitch you you already have 3 players there so they should be able to do well and cause the opposition all kinds of issues. How you support these attacks with the midfielder depends though.

So far, I've found that the 2 strikers on support don't quite drop back as far as I would like - but then I'm not sure they'd ever track back to follow DCMs/MCs so I'm not too worried. Especially with the DCM at the base we've still got a solid three defending.

Fortunately I seem to be facing the 4-2-2-2 nearly every week (you must of had similar with Santos) and the lack of width isn't too much of an issue. I have got WB-S on each side so they have been great at providing that width support between the MC-ST line, helped my Roaming Playmaker spread the ball out quite wide at times and, with the extra space thanks to few wingers/Wide Midfielders, passing can be done into space.

I have also set the two supporting strikers on Roam From Position and swap with each other to try and mix things up and spread them out. But, yes, sometimes we can get bogged down if we pick it up at about 30ish yards and my WBs aren't forward enough to collect the ball and tempt the defenders out. I assume the solution here is WB-A so they hang around further forward more often? I'd loath to try it though as I wouldn't want them to Cross More Often which is a default setting for that duty.

Finally, for the support, I actually re-read this whole one and your Counter Attacking one and realised that my CM-A was probably charging forward too quickly and not being made a passing option in/around the edge of the box to tempt defenders out. Changed that to a CM-S for the last game (close down more as well) and that seems to have made a difference, so thanks for the thread. Feels odd though to have only one player on attack duty though :p

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Now two thing's I've noticed, in the table above it said that the DF has "Close Down More" as a choice - doesn't seem I have that so am I missing something or is the table off?
That's no longer an option on FM16 it seems :(
Quite the shame as I'm not sure he's pressing much more than another striker on "sometimes" closing down as well. I'll have to keep an eye out and rewatch my last match where he played the entire game.

The closing down says "Sometimes" on the player instructions window but DF has 'Close Down More' on by default and the bar itself is full green, maxed out (on standard / flexible). The more I've played FM16 the more I've ignored the text on those settings and looked at the bars instead, they seem to be the actual representation - even though it says "Sometimes", a DF should be closing down as much as possible. Attributes like work rate and aggression will of course have an influence.

On the other hand, a Deep Lying Forward on Support also says "Sometimes" but the bar is maybe 65% full, a decent chunk at the end greyed out. That role with the same player should see a bit less closing even though the text is the same.

That's the way I see it at least.

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The closing down says 'sometimes' on the player instructions window but DF has 'Close Down More' on by default and the bar itself is full green, maxed out (on standard / flexible). The more I've played FM16 the more I've ignored the text on those settings and looked at the bars instead, they seem to be the actual representation - even though it says Sometimes, a DF should be closing down as much as possible. Attributes like work rate and aggression will of course have an influence.

On the other hand, a Deep Lying Forward on Support also says 'Sometimes' but the bar is maybe 65% full, a decent chunk at the end greyed out. That role with the same player should see a bit less closing even though the text is the same

That's the way I see it at least.

Yes you're right. I just loaded a different skin and looked and you're right. I use a custom skin that isn't finished yet and it doesn't show bars just the descriptions. The text is bugged and I believe SI have logged in from a quick look in the bugs forum.

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Gotta say, this has really helped me out. Playing FMC15 with Crystal Palace, second season. Dwight Gayle had a pretty meh first season, but after making a couple of changes to my tactic from the tips here, he managed to bag 24 this season!

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Awesome thread, the T&T forum is strong this year :thup:

Let me quickly explain my setup:

GK/d

FB/s

LD/d

LD/d

FB/s

W/a

CM/d

CM/s

W/a

TM/s

P/a

TIs: More direct passing, tackle harder, stick to positions

I want us to play the old-fashioned way. And while I know this style is pretty basic and limited I love it too much not to force it as much as I can.

My target man is a key player, he does indeed attract a lot of the passes towards him. From the descriptions in the OP I like to think a good alternative to this role that still suits our style would be a DF/s.

The poacher basically lurks around looking for goals, he often is shadowed when we play worse but he has been bagging around 20-25 goals per season (6 seasons in). I'd say the alternative here would be a AF/a but the AF roams more and this tactic does not focus on roaming. Maybe a DF/s - TM/a combo could work?

Looking forward for a thread on more attacking approaches.

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Any chance of a discussion on how to use three forwards together? I have a horrible addiction to buying young strikers, so always end up with far too many for my normal 1 striker system. Besides, it seems like it would be fun to have a 3 striker system to terrorize defenses with. However, every attempt I make fails horribly.

I would prefer a system that involves one targetman and one poacher/adv forward type. Not picky on the third one.

One of the things that has mystified me (amongst the many for this type of system), is whether you would want the target man on either end or the middle. And if you put him on an end, do you put him on the right if he is left-footed, or should does his preferred foot even matter?

EDIT: I see there was a bit of talk about 3 striker formations above that I somehow skipped. However, it doesn't involve the use of a targetman.

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Part Two

I believe it is much easier to get a strike partnership to work due to the interaction you can have between the players. You can have many different combinations ranging from little and large, creative and finisher, two creative types and so on. In modern-day football a partnership doesn’t have to be two strikers either, it could be a striker and an attacking midfielder or a striker and inside forward and so on.

No matter what save game I am playing or what tactic I use, I will always look to make some kind of partnerships throughout the attack and this approach has always served me well. Let’s take a look at some of the stats from a few different saved games that I have.

SFC.png?resize=474%2C194

In the above screenshot I lost the three most influential players during the season. I lost my top scorer with 34 goals in 22 games. One of the other players I lost was a rampaging winger with 15 goals and 21 assists in 26 games. And the final lad I lost was my deep-lying playmaker who have 4 goals and 10 assists in 19 games. But even on the screenshot above you can see I had goalscorers and plenty of assists spread throughout the team.

Here is another screenshot from a different saved game;

SUFC.png?resize=474%2C221

Again I have regular scorers and the assists are spread out through the team. But it’s still the same as above, lots of people involved and helping out the scorers.

This is another screenshot from another saved game;

Santos.png?resize=474%2C223

A different league, different save yet the same result, lots of goals and lots of players involved. Whether you want one scorer or multiple scorers they all need the same things. So let’s take a look at how I achieve this on my saves.

Creating Chances

As I’m at home I don’t have access to all my saved games because I use certain ones for when I’m at home and at work etc. Don’t ask me why as I’m not sure I could give a reason other than its something I’ve always done lol. But I do have access to the Santos save, so shall we remind ourselves how I’m set up so we can look at possible partnerships I have when going forward.

1970.png

The first thing you should notice is the use of four creative roles all in a same kind of area. You would be forgiven for thinking I have no support or runners at first glance but we actually do. The use of the creative roles was due to me trying to replicate a real life tactic.

Teams that don’t have regular creators in the side will fail to score goals or only score goals that are mistakes or good bits of individual displays. Sheffield United are currently like this in real life and we lack someone who can create or fashion chances for other people. The same thing happens on FM, a creator doesn’t need to be a playmaker, anyone can create all it requires is a basic pass, it really is that simple. Getting players into positions to supply others is a lot tougher though to put into practise but the idea behind creating chances itself is simple. Let me show you a few examples of my set up and how we create chances.

22.jpg?resize=474%2C215

The above screenshot is me in possession of the ball and attacking. It shows you people creating space, people using space and someone to supply a simple ball that causes all kinds of trouble. The RPM is actually a BWM, I got that wrong on the screen.

15.jpg?resize=474%2C209

This is the exact same screenshot but with a different view. Do you see how the attack is linking all together and all the options I do actually have. Not only that but players are actually in space and this is against a side using two defensive midfielders.

24.jpg?resize=474%2C213

The above is moments later in the move. As you can see I have no-one initially in the box but that isn’t a bad thing at all because my side don’t really cross the ball so it would be wasted. The player circled is the one in possession of the ball and is being forced out wide. While the striker and inside forward are in really good positions with space to move into, realistically the ball isn’t going to reach them as it would need a cross. In another system this would be a major issue and the move would end by either a wild shot, losing possession or attempting a needless cross that my players would never be able to win. But I don’t have this issue, why not? Well that’s simple, I have factored this into the system I use because it’s something I saw happen a few times. So the advanced playmaker is actually set up to be the spare man in these situations due to the movement he creates once he has passed the initial ball.

33.jpg?resize=474%2C215

Seconds later this happens, the advanced playmaker is free. He has no marker or anyone who can get close to him. The trequartista stops with the ball, turns and passes in back inside and automatically takes out the three players who went across to deal with him. While at the same time, the striker and inside forward are both occupying the oppositions defence. Can you guess what the advanced playmaker does next?

[video=youtube_share;HiTNfkYE1hk]

A very well taken goal. The reason for showing this goal was that I was just this second (at the time of writing) having an exchange with Rtherringbone on the SI Forums and I said;

And he replied with;

And I agree with him. I think this goal highlights those key things and shows them in practise. My front four and the midfield all work together. The striker and the inside forward occupy the defence. The trequarista is the one who initially creates space with his movement. Then the advanced playmaker is the one who is using the space that was created. And to top all of that off, this move all started with my deep-lying playmaker who linked them all together and allowed the move to happen.

The next screenshot is a different move but a similar situation.

43.jpg?resize=474%2C213

Here the box if far too crowded and full for anything to happen. This isn’t a bad thing though because again, I have the options of someone outside the box to pass the ball to. The deep-lying playmaker drives forward then cuts the ball back into the path of the advanced playmaker who again, is in acres of space and has time to finish the chance off;

[video=youtube_share;JTF6Rglndhk]

There is a lot more stuff that I could talk about in this system but then I might be here all day, I might expand on them over time but I didn’t want this to focus that much on my own saves as such, but I did want to share how the side links up and the roles the attackers have. This is only a small sample size though and just one example. Before I go further and talk about another incoherent system that fails to achieve the above, I wanted to briefly mention PPM’s.

Player Preferred Moves



If you watch games to get an understanding of how the system you have created and use works then over time you’ll notice the odd little things that can be a huge advantage if you know how. In the Brazilian 1970’s tactic that I created I began to notice that against teams who attacked me, my deep-lying forward would find lots of space due to him dropping off deep and roaming around. I also noticed that my centre back seems to have little pressure on him so this got me thinking about how I could try to utilise them both to start quick attacks if the defender deemed that the correct decision to make.

With this in mind I then began thinking of ways I would make it work in my advantage and decided I’d use a ball-playing defender and player preferred moves (PPM’s) to try to achieve this. Now I’ve not yet learnt this to every defender nor have I learnt it to every player that I use as a ball-playing defender. I don’t want everyone to play the same as I like different options for different types of games. So I trained one specific player to do a specific job.

13.jpg?resize=474%2C214

In the above screenshot my ball-playing defender is quite intelligent on the ball, he has good anticipation, teamwork, decisions, technique and passing. So with this in mind I taught him the player preferred move – Tries long-range passes to try to launch quick attacks if he sees fit. I tend to use him more against the sides who attack me rather than sit deep, as I know they’ll push up and leave numbers short at the back. While knowing that my deep-lying forward can be a handful and due to his own personal attributes, he can play a very direct game if needed and play a bit like a poacher at times. So I can make use of these kinds of balls. I could use him as a poacher but then I’d lose a bit of his identity during games as he often drops off, looks for space, links play and pushed forward. If he was just a poacher he’d be more likely to stay high but it could still be effective in this kind of scenario.

But one of the reasons this works well is my striker is fast, like Usain Bolt levels of speed, so I’m confident he will latch onto any long or direct balls and stretch the opposition especially when they aren’t deep. Here is a perfect example of what I’m talking about;

[video=youtube_share;vCwQqF4BdqI]

I see this happen often against these type of sides and you can see that one simple ball can cause them all kinds of issues and really put them on the back foot. This is just one small example of how you can use PPM’s to help you supply strikers with quick thinking balls. There are other PPM’s and combinations that could work too but I didn’t want to turn this into an article about PPM’s although I might do a more specific one at a later date as it’s a massive part of how I play.

These are just another dimension to tactic building and how you might potentially be able to capitalise on things in your own save. You don’t have too obviously but I felt it was worth mentioning and giving you all a different take on creating chances.

Incoherent System

Above I gave you an example of a tactic that tries to offer a bit of variety and provides plenty of options for players. So now for balance, I thought I’d pick apart an issue with another tactic that people seem to have trouble getting to work.

54.jpg?resize=401%2C592

I’ve purposely chosen this tactic as it is very top-heavy and it lacks someone who can control the game from deep. So you’d expect it to be good when it has the ball in the final third but struggle to get the ball to the attackers for large parts. Any kind of creative play from deep will be down to the trequartista who will drop very deep. But when he does drop deep this should present an issue which I’ll hopefully see.

63.jpg?resize=474%2C211

While the formation is a top-heavy one this screenshot shows the opposite, the more vulnerable side of what happens when the trequartista drops deep and roams about from the central areas. The most two advanced players become a bit isolated and have to come deep in search of the ball themselves.

73.jpg?resize=474%2C200

Due to the trequartista being the main creative outlet in the side and him dropping deep, then when the ball is won back you’ll often see players in these type of positions. Look how narrow the front four are. Now this wouldn’t be a bad thing if this was the initial phase of play as people would have time to advance and provide support, but this is the actual end of the move. The striker and trequartista are far too deep here and that leaves the job of attacking to the attacking midfielders. Which is an issue as they should be the ones getting into the scoring positions but here he has no option but to shoot from deep.

82.jpg?resize=474%2C211

A different move but yet again more of the same. How is the player supposed to break through the oppositions defence? Where can he realistically go with the ball? Support is too far behind and there’s a real lack of support yet again. It’s only the front four who are even attempting to do things from an offensive standpoint. The balance of the whole system is fundamentally flawed with the roles they’ve used. The support and creativity are all in the wrong areas.

Shall we take a look at what happens when I change a few roles around to offer better balance in attacks and to give us options going forward….

I’ve made a few small changes to the roles;

  • The trequartista is now a shadow striker
  • The right sided attacking midfielder is now an advanced playmaker
  • The ball winning midfielder is now a central midfielder with a defensive duty.
  • The original central midfielder on a defensive duty is now a deep-lying playmaker.

The reason for these changes is that the midfield pairing in any type of 4231 is the key to its success in terms of attack and defence. If they are too adventurous you’ll be badly exposed centrally, so its vital you get the balance correct. It is also beneficial to have someone deep who can pull the strings to make the most of the top-heavy attack you have. This is the main reason I used the deep-lying playmaker role, to take that pressure off the trequartista and switch it around, so we could use a more attack minded attacking midfielder, hence the Shadow Striker.

101.jpg?resize=474%2C182

This screenshot already shows an improvement for me because the player running with the ball has options ahead of him. The deep-lying playmaker passed the ball to the shadow striker who is driving forward. Before, in 90% of situations the person running with the ball from these areas was ahead of everyone else so had no forward options only backward ones.

111.jpg?resize=474%2C213

A few moments later you can see the next stage of the move, the full right hand side of the pitch has opened up for the fullback to use. The shadow striker has also passed the ball centrally now to the advanced playmaker and is bursting his gut to get forward. Already this screenshot is showing the positive reactions of the players from a few simple role changes.

Options and options and what’s needed for players. If you want a goalscorer the key to creating them is to use roles around him that allow for the type of striker to flourish that you have used in your system. It’s why understanding the tactic you use is fundamental for long term success so you aren’;t relying on individual brilliance or mistakes from the opposition. Things will be a lot better if you yourself can create, supply and finish chances off icon_smile.gif?w=474

Cleon with regards to your set up I am also playing a 4231 formation. My two central midfielders are CM Defend and Deep Lying Playmaket Support. I have Ozil in the AMC position and he has the PPM come deep to get ball. So this means will drop deep like a Trequartista which will impact on how I want to play because he will be too deep to link with other players who are higher up in the attack. I do not know what role and duty to take the pressure away from Ozil. I already gave Cazorla has my Deep Lying Playmaker Support to help feed my attack which consist of Inside Forward Support Winger Attack and Complete Forward Attack. The issue I have is what role to give Ozil to ensure that my attack operates well and is not flawed. Please could you help.

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I was wondering if I could get a clarification on the following two roles. I noticed one performing slightly better but have no real explanation.

On my current 4411 formation, I'm currently rotating between two roles.

At first I was playing a Complete Forward (S) however he was too high up the pitch and was isolated from my Enganche. I then experimented with a DLF (S) but found him too stationary.

I then decided to give the DLF roam more and dribble more, essential the same instructions as the Complete Forward (S) offers and he finds himself in deeper positions and roams better.

Ironically, since I use fluid system, there is no mentality differences

Is there any hidden differences between the two roles that we can't see or is it a bias effect that is making me think the self-imposed instructions are creating better rewards?

Edit : FM16

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Nothing "hidden" that I know of. DLF is, as it says in the name, less forward positioned striker - especially vs. a Complete Forward. Good choice to swap to stop a striker being isolated.

I assume your DLF still has "Hold Ball" which will also help link up play

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Scoring goals is easy to achieve in Football Manager, getting regular scorers can be more problematic though.

I created a profile here just to thank you for this thread! Thank you very much, it really opened my eyes.

After got sacked 3x times, I finally found a good tactic and I'm winning games. Based on your tips here!

I didn't copy any formations or instructions, only follow the advice and ideas.

(sorry about my poor English)

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I can't seem to get my striker score a lot.

These are the roles:

-----------AF(A)-------

W(S)-------------------IF(A)

-------CM(A)-DLP(S)---

-----------DM(D)-------

FB(O)-CB(D)-CB(D)-FB(O)

He should get plenty of support with these roles. And I know a lot of people say it's better to play with a lone striker on support duty but I want my striker to do only thing: score an insane amount of goals.

I'm Blackburn and Jordan Rhodes is a class striker, but he only scored 3 in 9 games. Any advice?

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I can't seem to get my striker score a lot.

These are the roles:

-----------AF(A)-------

W(S)-------------------IF(A)

-------CM(A)-DLP(S)---

-----------DM(D)-------

FB(O)-CB(D)-CB(D)-FB(O)

He should get plenty of support with these roles. And I know a lot of people say it's better to play with a lone striker on support duty but I want my striker to do only thing: score an insane amount of goals.

I'm Blackburn and Jordan Rhodes is a class striker, but he only scored 3 in 9 games. Any advice?

Why do those roles automatically mean he is getting support? If the CM attack doesn't get up along side play fast enough then the IF and AF will be isolated. So the player you use in that role is vital, he needs to be faster than the players higher up the pitch, if not how he can catch up play? That's just one example of why it doesn't always mean the player is getting the support you think he should.

Also if you've read the thread you will notice that just because someone is on an attack duty that doesn't mean he will score an insane amount of goals. The same with a support role, it doesn't mean he can't score a crazy amount of goals.

You're asking for help yet come across as not wanting to change your roles with the wording of your post and that you already know better. So I'm not sure how anyone can really help you.

Another issue is, you have no-one really making space in the tactic. Who is making the space for the inside forward?

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Why do those roles automatically mean he is getting support? If the CM attack doesn't get up along side play fast enough then the IF and AF will be isolated. So the player you use in that role is vital, he needs to be faster than the players higher up the pitch, if not how he can catch up play? That's just one example of why it doesn't always mean the player is getting the support you think he should.

Also if you've read the thread you will notice that just because someone is on an attack duty that doesn't mean he will score an insane amount of goals. The same with a support role, it doesn't mean he can't score a crazy amount of goals.

You're asking for help yet come across as not wanting to change your roles with the wording of your post and that you already know better. So I'm not sure how anyone can really help you.

Another issue is, you have no-one really making space in the tactic. Who is making the space for the inside forward?

I didn't mean for you to think I don't want to change any roles. I just said I want my striker to score a lot of goals. So imo the best roles for that are AF or P. If I give him a support duty maybe he'll be out of position because he drops deeper, correct me if i'm wrong.

I never thought of that, what you say on my CM attack. I'll keep that in mind.

For me it's quite hard to make and analyze a tactic. This is how I think when i set up this tactic:

I wanted a striker to score a lot of goals. I think that if I give him a support duty he will do a lot of other things as well which will cause him to be less in the box and therefore gets less chances. That's why I chose for a AF.

My winger on the left has to provide crosses for him.

Because I have no AM, I thought there would be a lot of space on that spot. The IF and CM can come in that space and help with the attack.

DLP because I needed a playmaker, but he shouldn't be too high on the pitch because he also needs to defend.

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IMG_0057.png

images

Hi,

i have a very specific question about my tactic.

I'm playing the touch version of the game in a Ipad, so i can't watch the game in full mode, or see the statistics that we can see in the PC version.

So the question:

Is the movement from my CM(a) conflicting with the movement from the Raumdeuter?

In theory, what i would expect from my tactic is something like this:

DLF(s) drops deep, creating space for the Raumdeuter. A second wave is created my the forward runs from the CM(a) and the BBM. The AP(s) acts like the suplier.

A third wave comes in with the foward run from the Left FB(a).

In theroy, i think this could work, but i have some doubts about the combo CM(a)-RMD, manly because they always get the lowest rating in my team.

Should i change the CM(a) to a more conservative role? Perhaps CM(s) or even a Roaming Playmaker?

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Not really a big fan of Adv playmaker on the flank. He cuts in, DLF drops deep and as a result, both could be operating in the same space just in front of the pk box.

I will consider using a roaming playmaker instead if you want a playmaker and a winger on 1 flank. At the centre, he gets to dictate play easier. And when the DLF drops deep, both your roaming playmaker and CM(A) could be attacking the box.

Lastly, if you are afraid of RMD and CM(A) getting into each other way, can consider using roam from position and move into channels for your CM(A). This will give him more freedom to move around.

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Not really a big fan of Adv playmaker on the flank. He cuts in, DLF drops deep and as a result, both could be operating in the same space just in front of the pk box.

Actually i dont quite agree.

The Adv Playmaker, because he is on support duty, also drops from his position, so from what i can see he never gets in to the DLF area.

Lastly, if you are afraid of RMD and CM(A) getting into each other way, can consider using roam from position and move into channels for your CM(A). This will give him more freedom to move around.

I like this idea, but i already have the BBM that has the roaming from position by default. Giving that also to my CM(a), both my players in the midfield will have "roaming from position" who could lead to a midfield without any reference.

Perhaps this could work if i change the BBM to CM(s). Having the CM(s) more positional player, and giving to the CM(a) roaming from position and move into channels.

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IMG_0057.png

images

Hi,

i have a very specific question about my tactic.

I'm playing the touch version of the game in a Ipad, so i can't watch the game in full mode, or see the statistics that we can see in the PC version.

So the question:

Is the movement from my CM(a) conflicting with the movement from the Raumdeuter?

In theory, what i would expect from my tactic is something like this:

DLF(s) drops deep, creating space for the Raumdeuter. A second wave is created my the forward runs from the CM(a) and the BBM. The AP(s) acts like the suplier.

A third wave comes in with the foward run from the Left FB(a).

In theroy, i think this could work, but i have some doubts about the combo CM(a)-RMD, manly because they always get the lowest rating in my team.

Should i change the CM(a) to a more conservative role? Perhaps CM(s) or even a Roaming Playmaker?

I like the combo and they should all link up very well, the CM and Raum can do some great combination plays.

The AP on the wing is a fantastic role too, in my 7 seasons where I've used one he got over 30 assists a season and around 30 goals a season too.

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I like the combo and they should all link up very well, the CM and Raum can do some great combination plays.

The AP on the wing is a fantastic role too, in my 7 seasons where I've used one he got over 30 assists a season and around 30 goals a season too.

So Cleon,

If i'm getting lower ratings from both players, CM(a) and Raum, it's not because of the combo, but perhaps because of other options in my tactic?

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So Cleon,

If i'm getting lower ratings from both players, CM(a) and Raum, it's not because of the combo, but perhaps because of other options in my tactic?

It could be yeah. Remember playmakers attract the ball so they could be getting lower ratings due to players favouring your left side.

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It could be yeah. Remember playmakers attract the ball so they could be getting lower ratings due to players favouring your left side.

It could be.

Gaitan, the Playmaker that plays on the left side, usually get the higher rating and it's a joy to see playing.

Gonna do some experiments to see if i can change things a little bit.

I've been messing around with the forward role. Lately trying with F9, and from what i can see it seems that the CM(a) and the Raum are playing better. Perhaps the extra space giving from the F9 is helping their game.

It's hard, with the tablet touch version, getting to conclusions. :(

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I noticed in Rashidi's striker grid that the CF role has roaming as 'no', was that maybe a mistake? As it definitely has 'roam from position' in its PI's.

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Just wondering. What would you do to fix this tactic used by Cleon as an example in the first post? On the first sight, it doesn't look quite unbalanced, maybe one or a couple of role changes could do the trick.

 

72.jpg

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Cleon explained the problem, the forward is isolated. 3 out of 4 of the closest players are playmakers who look to collect the ball to feet rather than getting forward and linking up with the DLF.

Edited by summatsupeer

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37 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Cleon explained the problem, the forward is isolated. 3 out of 4 of the closest players are playmakers who look to collect the ball to feet rather than getting forward and linking up with the DLF.

But isn't the AP (A) going forward?

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7 minutes ago, pocketspace said:

But isn't the AP (A) going forward?

He is, but because he s a creator, he will look more for the ball, and so many times will come back.

Because of that, is not the perfect link to a lone striker.

 

For example, a CM(a), could do better that job, or even a BBM(s) with the instruction to get further forward.

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56 minutes ago, pocketspace said:

But isn't the AP (A) going forward?

He is a playmaker, he will move towards the ball to collect it.  The attack duty will make him take more risks and dribble with it more, it won't turn him into a "runner" type of role like CM-A or BBM (as Keyzer mentioned).

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53 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

He is a playmaker, he will move towards the ball to collect it.  The attack duty will make him take more risks and dribble with it more, it won't turn him into a "runner" type of role like CM-A or BBM (as Keyzer mentioned).

Alright I see it.

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@Cleon I'm really struggling to get the most out of my lone forward in a 4-2-3-1 formation, I've tried almost any role but I can't seem to make him my main goalscorer, or even get him to score and perform consistently. I'm playing as followed:

SK(d)
FB(s) - CD(d) - CD(d) - FB(a)
BBM(s) - DLP(d)
W(a) ------- SS(a) -------- IF(s)
DLF(a)

Control, Fluid, Short passing, Tight marking, Work Ball Into Box, Play Out Of Defence. My front 4 close down (much) more and my FB(a) keeps width.

But I can't seem to support my forward decently, I want him to score from crosses from my winger, through balls from my SS and IF or being at the end of a passing combination to score the goal. But I can't seem to accomplish this..any advice?
 

 

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8 hours ago, BadAss88 said:

@Cleon I'm really struggling to get the most out of my lone forward in a 4-2-3-1 formation, I've tried almost any role but I can't seem to make him my main goalscorer, or even get him to score and perform consistently. I'm playing as followed:

SK(d)
FB(s) - CD(d) - CD(d) - FB(a)
BBM(s) - DLP(d)
W(a) ------- SS(a) -------- IF(s)
DLF(a)

Control, Fluid, Short passing, Tight marking, Work Ball Into Box, Play Out Of Defence. My front 4 close down (much) more and my FB(a) keeps width.

But I can't seem to support my forward decently, I want him to score from crosses from my winger, through balls from my SS and IF or being at the end of a passing combination to score the goal. But I can't seem to accomplish this..any advice?
 

 

Well you don't really have anyone creating for the forward so no wonder he isn't performing like you want. Apart from the winger who is really supplying him with the ball? A SS and IF are primarily  goalscoring threats than creators. If you want him to be the finisher of moves and the main goal scorer then you need to change his role and the other 3 attackers o allow for this. I talk about this in the thread, you need to have people playing him the ball and offering support. Currently you lack this as the DLF is the one dropping deep and being the creator.

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Edit: messed up quoting the two posts above.

In complement to this I would think twice regarding WBiB. You want the winger to cross but then you reduce that with a TI. Also, who will work the ball into the box as you see it? And how will the striker benefit?

My advice would be to try without WBiB and/or change the SS to a creator role. Maybe the forward to an AF. 

Good luck!

 

Edited by Wayne Flemming

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12 hours ago, BadAss88 said:

@Cleon I'm really struggling to get the most out of my lone forward in a 4-2-3-1 formation, I've tried almost any role but I can't seem to make him my main goalscorer, or even get him to score and perform consistently. I'm playing as followed:

SK(d)
FB(s) - CD(d) - CD(d) - FB(a)
BBM(s) - DLP(d)
W(a) ------- SS(a) -------- IF(s)
DLF(a)

Control, Fluid, Short passing, Tight marking, Work Ball Into Box, Play Out Of Defence. My front 4 close down (much) more and my FB(a) keeps width.

But I can't seem to support my forward decently, I want him to score from crosses from my winger, through balls from my SS and IF or being at the end of a passing combination to score the goal. But I can't seem to accomplish this..any advice?
 

 

Same formation as me, same philosophy and similar roles. My lower league part-timers are scoring for fun, so let's look at the detailed differences:

My passing is direct given the limited technicals we have, and I don't play out of defence - is your build-up a bit ponderous allowing the oppo defence time to set up well?

In place of your DLP I have an AP (s) in the deep role when I have a SS and DLF(s) ahead of him, or a CM (s) if I have an AP(a) and AF up top. I also have 2 wingers both on support duty and fullbacks on d or s duty, never a (not smart enough to get back in time when we lose possession).

I think you have too many attacking duties (I find 2 is enough) combined with a slow build up resulting in predictability, allowing defences to get the better of you.

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I'm still struggling to get my lone forward to score.. I play the following formation:

SK(d)
FB(a) - CD(d) - CD(d) - FB(a)
BBM(s) - DLP(d)
W(s) ------- AP(a) ------- IF(s)
AF(a)

Control, Fluid, TI's: Pass Into Space, Close Down More, Tighter marking, the front 4 close down even more and my leftback stays wide.

In my last game against I had 33 shots, 18 on target, 21 (!!) long range shots and only 1 clear cut chance and 3 half chances..so there's still something wrong with my tactic. I'm getting really frustrated that my players keep shooting from distance while there are plenty of better passing options or crossing possibilities. I don't wanna use Work Ball Into Box, because then I give the opposition the chance to organise their back and they're already lying deep with plenty of people. I wanna see more through passes and less long range shots..any solutions? 

Would playing on a higher tempo help? Or maybe dribble less? As they would play the ball faster to another player?

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