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Jimbokav1971

Do you want an "Instant result" button for full-fat mode.

Do you want an "Instant Result" button for Full-Fat FM?  

260 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you want an "Instant Result" button for Full-Fat FM?



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Why then do you follow this up by telling people how to enjoy their game?

I did not tell anyone how to enjoy their game, I just offered my opinion on what the game should be about. It's what I believe makes the game more realistic and thus FOR ME better.

I would actually go the other way around and say that matches should be even more focused on, made more important and vibrant. Currently even though user interaction increases with each version, they just seem like simply a part of the game when they should be the focus. They are the actual football, everything else is a side activity in order to improve performance in them.

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Guys. Please not let this turn into a slag-fest. We don't have to agree. I was just trying to gauge opinion and get some reasons why people thought how they did.

The powers at be seem to be set against the idea if the feedback from certain posters is any indication, so let's not fall out over it.

We can use the skins for now and maybe in the future, whatever part of the code that stops this FMC feature being transferable to Full-Fat, might be re-written to allow it to be transferred properly. (Here's hoping).

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I really don't have any intention to fight with anyone, I'm just stating my view on what the game should focus on.

I do believe Äktsjon's reply was a bit...provokative let's say. Anyways the point is I don't really care if 'instant result' is applied in full-fat FM too but I do think the effort should be in the opposite direction.

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There are absolutely no plans for it to be added to the full version. I'd say you've probably got more chance of a stadium manager being added.

As a feature that is easily ignored for those that don't want to use it but brilliant for those that do, dismissing something 50% (see the poll above) of your customers want is wrong. You make a brilliant game and you are better listening than any other developers out there.

The reason I use this with a skin is the assistant is AWFUL at using pre season friendlies to get my whole squad fighting fit. I arrange up to 15 friendlies about 10 of which will be against whipping boys and used purely for fitness. If I set my assistant to pick the team, he'll use the same 13 or 14 players meaning I have only half my squad fit. I can also make players available for the development squad until match fit and arrange a load of friendlies there, but then the assistant plays them then the next day the development squad plays them and injuries become an issue...

So to avoid spending half a day in pre-season I use a skin that allows me to pick the 11 I want and then skip the match.

An alternative for me would be to ask the assistant to use pre-season to get my best players well drilled and ready to go so he picks the best 13 or 14 as he currently does, or to instruct him to get the whole squad fit so he actually plays everyone (where possible) to get a full squad of fit players.

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As a feature that is easily ignored for those that don't want to use it but brilliant for those that do, dismissing something 50% (see the poll above) of your customers want is wrong. You make a brilliant game and you are better listening than any other developers out there.

A poorly disguised "customer is always right" post. Fortunately, SI have a better view over the entire project, and if Neil Brock is saying something as absolutely definitive as what he did say, then you can be pretty sure that they've got a good reason.

And funny you mention that 50% want it. That also means that 50% don't want it. Why should SI ignore them, by your logic? YOu can say that it won't affect those 50%, but someone has got to code this in, and have the entertaining task of making sure it works properly with full fat FM - which many have reported it doesn't currently. So those that don't use it are still being affected, because it's taking development time away from other things. Personally, there are hundreds of other things I'd rather they worked on before this.

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A poorly disguised "customer is always right" post. Fortunately, SI have a better view over the entire project, and if Neil Brock is saying something as absolutely definitive as what he did say, then you can be pretty sure that they've got a good reason.

And funny you mention that 50% want it. That also means that 50% don't want it. Why should SI ignore them, by your logic? You can say that it won't affect those 50%, but someone has got to code this in, and have the entertaining task of making sure it works properly with full fat FM - which many have reported it doesn't currently. So those that don't use it are still being affected, because it's taking development time away from other things. Personally, there are hundreds of other things I'd rather they worked on before this.

A poorly disguised 'SI can do no wrong' post? I voted, I made a case for why I voted how I did and I even suggested a compromise the SI could look at to accommodate more people. My post was more a bit of advice on how to keep your customers happy, which basically said keep doing as you are doing, however in this instance where 50% of customers want something, and SI are adamant it wont happen why not explain the reasoning.

I fully understand that SI say if you want it to be quicker, use the FMC version and it is a valid point, but in my own case I want to play the full version and I want all my players fit at the start of the season without watching 15+ friendlies. Make my assistant realise that it is pre season and the goal is to get EVERYONE fit in the first 10 pre season games then tune tactics and concentrate on the more likely starting squad for the last few.

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A poorly disguised 'SI can do no wrong' post? I voted, I made a case for why I voted how I did and I even suggested a compromise the SI could look at to accommodate more people. My post was more a bit of advice on how to keep your customers happy, which basically said keep doing as you are doing, however in this instance where 50% of customers want something, and SI are adamant it wont happen why not explain the reasoning.

I fully understand that SI say if you want it to be quicker, use the FMC version and it is a valid point, but in my own case I want to play the full version and I want all my players fit at the start of the season without watching 15+ friendlies. Make my assistant realise that it is pre season and the goal is to get EVERYONE fit in the first 10 pre season games then tune tactics and concentrate on the more likely starting squad for the last few.

You need to try harder than that to paint someone into this nebulous "fanboy" group. It's not really going to wash. Whether it's right or wrong doesn't really come into it to be honest, I merely said that if they're coming out and actively confirming that there are no plans for it - something which they very, very rarely do - then there must be a good reason for it. You'd probably find features that a much larger majority of users want that SI still won't want, because it's their game, and they have a much better and wider view of the game at large.

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If this keeps on going down the slagging each other off route then I will simply close it. People all have their various views for and against it, which they are entitled to. SI also have their views on how they want to develop their own game, which they are well entitled to.

Should be noted that listening to gamers =/= doing everything they want. At the end of the day they are allowed to develop the game the way they want to, and not doing the way one might want it doesn't make it "wrong", something that i think is being lost on people both here and in the wider gaming industry.

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A poorly disguised 'SI can do no wrong' post? I voted, I made a case for why I voted how I did and I even suggested a compromise the SI could look at to accommodate more people. My post was more a bit of advice on how to keep your customers happy, which basically said keep doing as you are doing, however in this instance where 50% of customers want something, and SI are adamant it wont happen why not explain the reasoning.

I fully understand that SI say if you want it to be quicker, use the FMC version and it is a valid point, but in my own case I want to play the full version and I want all my players fit at the start of the season without watching 15+ friendlies. Make my assistant realise that it is pre season and the goal is to get EVERYONE fit in the first 10 pre season games then tune tactics and concentrate on the more likely starting squad for the last few.

TBH, that's more of a reason for improving interaction with the Assistant Manager and how he handles friendlies, rather than an Instant result button.

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The way I read Neil's comment wasn't that he was poo-pooing the idea exactly. More that he is aware that SI now have a very clear path that Full-Fat development is going to follow and an "IR" button, while suited to FMC and wanted by many, does not fit in with that path.

I quite like that there is a clear strategy now. I don't think it was very clear for a long time and it was only the advent of FMC that allowed Full-Fat to go in a certain direction.

I think what we have is players who have previously played Full-Fat, liking aspects of FMC, but not quite being willing to make the leap. (That's me anyway).

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Well from my personal point of view there are a few reasons.

1. I'm in 2040 now and most Serie A matches are not really important for me. I want to play Cup games and Champions League games etc, (and my main challenge is now International competitions). If I can use instant result for home games against the bottom 3/4 of the table then it will really speed things up for me.

2. When I started playing, forget about 3D match engine. There was not even a 2D match engine. It was commentary only, (and pretty limited commentary at that). The game is about far more than individual matches.

Each to their own though. (I would never have thought I would disagree with you going back 18 months or so. I guess that this really long-term save has changed the way I play the game. If I was starting a new save of FM14 or FM15, then maybe this feature might be less attractive).

The way I read Neil's comment wasn't that he was poo-pooing the idea exactly. More that he is aware that SI now have a very clear path that Full-Fat development is going to follow and an "IR" button, while suited to FMC and wanted by many, does not fit in with that path.

I quite like that there is a clear strategy now. I don't think it was very clear for a long time and it was only the advent of FMC that allowed Full-Fat to go in a certain direction.

I think what we have is players who have previously played Full-Fat, liking aspects of FMC, but not quite being willing to make the leap. (That's me anyway).

I completely agree with what you have put forth in the above two posts.

What I would like is to have an extension of the 'Use same tactics' and 'Use starting line-up whenever possible' features. I would like to be able to tell me Ass-man or a coach as to what I exactly want to be done in my absence.

A pre-discussed 'Match-plan' of sorts.

If this means holidaying on match day, then so be it.

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I really don't have any intention to fight with anyone, I'm just stating my view on what the game should focus on.

I do believe Äktsjon's reply was a bit...provokative let's say. Anyways the point is I don't really care if 'instant result' is applied in full-fat FM too but I do think the effort should be in the opposite direction.

It's not provocative at all. It's simply presenting an opposite case to your view that FM is about the football match only. It can be, if that's your preference. The beauty of this game is that it can be played in so many ways, for some it's about the match and all the details, for others it's about squad building and small club to all conquering glory challenges. It can be played as an RPG. All of that fits within the full fat FM concept and always has. Moving the full game away from some of those game styles and focusing on one particular approach would hardly be beneficial to anyone except for those who play that way. What exactly is the game lacking in that aspect and why should the matches become more time consuming for myself and others who do not want to focus on them?

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It's not provocative at all. It's simply presenting an opposite case to your view that FM is about the football match only. It can be, if that's your preference. The beauty of this game is that it can be played in so many ways, for some it's about the match and all the details, for others it's about squad building and small club to all conquering glory challenges. It can be played as an RPG. All of that fits within the full fat FM concept and always has. Moving the full game away from some of those game styles and focusing on one particular approach would hardly be beneficial to anyone except for those who play that way. What exactly is the game lacking in that aspect and why should the matches become more time consuming for myself and others who do not want to focus on them?

Sorry for thinking that way then :)

It just boils down to what we see FM as. I see it as a continuous effort to achieve the most realistic simulation of managing an actual football club. And the steps were always ,in my opinion at least, towards that direction. Each iteration brings more need for involvement in the actual match than before. If you remember the awesome CM3 and how matches were played and compare it with the current version they are miles away in that area. Now you can provide opposition instructions, shout to your players, change mentalites and team instructions on the fly and all these goodies which constantly bring the game closer to what it ideally (for me always) it should be. Each game in football is a tactical challenge and the more the game represents that, the better if we are talking about "realism".

Now of course I can absolutely understand that people like different aspects of the game and handle it completely differently than me but I do believe that the focus when developing new versions of FM should remain into making it more realistic as far as managing and coaching goes. But I'm absolutely happy with the existence of an extra mode for people that want a lighter and different approach. I would also absolutely not mind features like instant result but I do believe it's something that deviates from what the game is trying to achieve.

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Think it should stay with FMC and not go anywhere near full fat FM. I'd never use it myself, think it's a terrible thing and good to see Neil shoot it down in flames.

However i respect some people would want it, but again in my own personal view it should stay well clear of full FM

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The way I read Neil's comment wasn't that he was poo-pooing the idea exactly. More that he is aware that SI now have a very clear path that Full-Fat development is going to follow and an "IR" button, while suited to FMC and wanted by many, does not fit in with that path.

I quite like that there is a clear strategy now. I don't think it was very clear for a long time and it was only the advent of FMC that allowed Full-Fat to go in a certain direction.

I think what we have is players who have previously played Full-Fat, liking aspects of FMC, but not quite being willing to make the leap. (That's me anyway).

I think Neil has more or less confirmed zero chance of it ever happening, as they have previously said there is not a hope in hell of a stadium manager either so if there is more chance of that, as oppose to IR button, reading between the lines it's safe to say we will never see IR in full fat FM. Thumbs up from me

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I think Neil has more or less confirmed zero chance of it ever happening, as they have previously said there is not a hope in hell of a stadium manager either so if there is more chance of that, as oppose to IR button, reading between the lines it's safe to say we will never see IR in full fat FM. Thumbs up from me

You wouldn't be forced to use it, typical selfish attitude of some people, because you don't want to use it it shouldn't be an option.

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You wouldn't be forced to use it, typical selfish attitude of some people, because you don't want to use it it shouldn't be an option.

No, it's a typical blinkered attitude from posts like this. I have never attacked the idea itself - I use it through a third party skin - I have instead stated several times that it's the bigger picture I'm looking at, as it is with SI. Putting this in takes resources, both in development and testing, and there are hundreds of other things I'd rather those resources were allocated to.

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Putting this in takes resources, both in development and testing, and there are hundreds of other things I'd rather those resources were allocated to.

I agree with the way of thinking, but in this specific case the feature already exist in the classic mode. While there are big differences between the modes, the similarities are big enough that it works reasonably well when implemented via a costum skin. Compared to many other wishes the playerbase has, I doubt this is a very demanding thing to implement

The big question is whether or not it fits with their vision of the two game types. Lucas and Neil indicated quite strongly that it doesn't fit with their current vision, but I have a small hope that threads like this can make their vision shift just a tiny bit toward giving players more freedom in how they play the game

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What I do not fully understand is that you can use it now with certain skins. And if you do not set any in-game options then the ass-man or whoever actually uses substitutes. So my question would be if it is feasible re certain skins now then why cannot it not be implemented in the full game re those skins. Is it coding, is it another aspect that makes it difficult or is it reluctance on behalf of the SI as they may see it as "dumbing/watering" down the full version.

Without going over the arguments re for and against already put, I am puzzled as to why there is an apparent reluctance to adopt it and a central view would be enlightening, make for an interesting read and would be welcome.

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I agree with the way of thinking, but in this specific case the feature already exist in the classic mode. While there are big differences between the modes, the similarities are big enough that it works reasonably well when implemented via a costum skin. Compared to many other wishes the playerbase has, I doubt this is a very demanding thing to implement

The big question is whether or not it fits with their vision of the two game types. Lucas and Neil indicated quite strongly that it doesn't fit with their current vision, but I have a small hope that threads like this can make their vision shift just a tiny bit toward giving players more freedom in how they play the game

What I do not fully understand is that you can use it now with certain skins. And if you do not set any in-game options then the ass-man or whoever actually uses substitutes. So my question would be if it is feasible re certain skins now then why cannot it not be implemented in the full game re those skins. Is it coding, is it another aspect that makes it difficult or is it reluctance on behalf of the SI as they may see it as "dumbing/watering" down the full version.

Without going over the arguments re for and against already put, I am puzzled as to why there is an apparent reluctance to adopt it and a central view would be enlightening, make for an interesting read and would be welcome.

There have been issues reported with using it in full mode, and even if there hadn't been, it would still take considerable testing to make sure none existed. There is - unfortunately - no such thing as an easy win in this regard.

Put simply, my reservation is the one I've already stated about taking resources away, and SI's is probably - no confirmation beyond what Neil said earlier - that it's against the ethos of the full game, and so remains in FMC.

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Kazza. SI seem to have quite a clear path for both Full-Fat and FMC. That they have taken FMC off at a tangent allows them to do this. Without putting words in their mouth, the idea of an IR button does not fit into the path that they have for Full-Fat. It does however sit slap bang in the middle of the path that they have chosen for FMC, (hence it's introduction).

I have recently started using it on Full-Fat, (via a skin), but of course it only works if I don't set a match plan. Well that is a problem for me. I want to use it, and would absolutely love it if I could also use the match plan, but if I do that then the subs don't happen when we get a player injured. As far as I know, (and please feel free to correct me), this doesn't happen in FMC, (so the code works fine). It's just when it is transferred over to Full-Fat, (which it was not designed for), something doesn't work and injured players don't get replaced.

Initially i was asking here just to see what other peoples opinions were, and I'm pleasantly surprised by how many are in favour, (even if it is only a small section poll on this forum). SI have been quite clear on where they stand, through Brock, (apologies, couldn't remember first name), and that seems pretty reasonable to me, (especially given their supposed thinking.

My only suggestion is that they change whatever the coding is within FMC to allow this feature to be transferable. Not by them but by 3rd party skinners. Then, they get to keep their Full-Fat game running along nicely within their objective parameters, but we, (the customer), get what we want. The only problem is whether this is an easy fix that can just be resolved by one simple line of code, (no idea if that is likely), or if it is something quite in-depth that might have a danger of breaking something else it is linked to, (and nobody wants that).

SI have thought long and hard about introducing this 2nd style of game, and to be honest they overcame significant criticism from people like me in doing so. I thought it was just gimmicky and don't get me wrong, I still hate the idea of being able to pay for a magic sponge even though I am never going to use it, but rather than diluting either version of the game, what they want to do is for the likes of you and me to try both and choose the one that most suits the way we want to play.

The reality is that I am now probably more suited to FMC, (I was always a slow player), and it's just part stubbornness, part stupidity, part my enjoyment of my current FM14 save that stops me downloading FM15 and starting straight with FMC. SI have given us the choice and they want us to use FMC to make the money they have invested in it worthwhile. If they don't keep the two styles from converging, then all that investment in FMC will ultimately have just been thrown away. I get why they are doing, even if it doesn't particularly suit me right this very instant.

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No, it's a typical blinkered attitude from posts like this. I have never attacked the idea itself - I use it through a third party skin - I have instead stated several times that it's the bigger picture I'm looking at, as it is with SI. Putting this in takes resources, both in development and testing, and there are hundreds of other things I'd rather those resources were allocated to.

Blinkered? wrong, I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be added to full fat, I'm just saying that if it was added then people have the option to use it or not as people have different ways they like to play the game, anyway I didn't quote you so don't know why you think my post was in anyway aimed at you?

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Blinkered? wrong, I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be added to full fat, I'm just saying that if it was added then people have the option to use it or not as people have different ways they like to play the game, anyway I didn't quote you so don't know why you think my post was in anyway aimed at you?

The problem is Maw74, that it can't just be transferred to Full-Fay because plain and simply, it was designed for FMC and doesn't work properly with Full-Fat.

If they transfer it over as is, then it will need further work and there is a finite amount of resources and time that can be spent on anything and while FM16 may not go on sale tomorrow, a lot of the work towards it will have already been done. Is it reasonable to ask that they spend resources fixing something that they don't want to do in the first place?

As I was writing my last post I answered my own question really. SI are never going to make it transferable because there is nothing in it for them. They don't want it in the game and by not putting it there they make people like me, (who fall between the two styles), look again at choosing FMC. Their investment in this part of the game needs to be rewarded so they are not going to do something that makes this less likely.

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Blinkered? wrong, I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be added to full fat, I'm just saying that if it was added then people have the option to use it or not as people have different ways they like to play the game, anyway I didn't quote you so don't know why you think my post was in anyway aimed at you?

It's a forum, people are going to disagree with you. It's blinkered because you're bleating on about someone being selfish for not wanting what you want, and saying that it wouldn't affect them. Everything that gets put into the game affects everyone that plays, whether they use the feature or not, because a feature they did want may have been jettisoned for it.

But jimbokav managed to put it better...

The problem is Maw74, that it can't just be transferred to Full-Fay because plain and simply, it was designed for FMC and doesn't work properly with Full-Fat.

If they transfer it over as is, then it will need further work and there is a finite amount of resources and time that can be spent on anything and while FM16 may not go on sale tomorrow, a lot of the work towards it will have already been done. Is it reasonable to ask that they spend resources fixing something that they don't want to do in the first place?

As I was writing my last post I answered my own question really. SI are never going to make it transferable because there is nothing in it for them. They don't want it in the game and by not putting it there they make people like me, (who fall between the two styles), look again at choosing FMC. Their investment in this part of the game needs to be rewarded so they are not going to do something that makes this less likely.

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The problem is Maw74, that it can't just be transferred to Full-Fay because plain and simply, it was designed for FMC and doesn't work properly with Full-Fat.

Yeah I know, I wasn't suggesting it could be just a simple add-on to full fat, I know that SI would have to spend time on it and test it, just saying if SI did include it in a future full fat FM.

I play FMC anyway and I only use the Instant Result option for pre-season friendlies, I haven't even voted because I'm 50/50 I can see why a lot would like it but I can also see why others would rather SI devote time on other aspects of the game, plus I have no intention of playing full fat as some of the features are not to my liking so really it's not for me to say either way.

I only posted in here because that one remark.

It's a forum, people are going to disagree with you. It's blinkered because you're bleating on about someone being selfish for not wanting what you want, and saying that it wouldn't affect them.

Where did I say I wanted it? stop making stuff up.

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Kazza. SI seem to have quite a clear path for both Full-Fat and FMC. That they have taken FMC off at a tangent allows them to do this. Without putting words in their mouth, the idea of an IR button does not fit into the path that they have for Full-Fat. It does however sit slap bang in the middle of the path that they have chosen for FMC, (hence it's introduction).

I have recently started using it on Full-Fat, (via a skin), but of course it only works if I don't set a match plan. Well that is a problem for me. I want to use it, and would absolutely love it if I could also use the match plan, but if I do that then the subs don't happen when we get a player injured. As far as I know, (and please feel free to correct me), this doesn't happen in FMC, (so the code works fine). It's just when it is transferred over to Full-Fat, (which it was not designed for), something doesn't work and injured players don't get replaced.

Initially i was asking here just to see what other peoples opinions were, and I'm pleasantly surprised by how many are in favour, (even if it is only a small section poll on this forum). SI have been quite clear on where they stand, through Brock, (apologies, couldn't remember first name), and that seems pretty reasonable to me, (especially given their supposed thinking.

My only suggestion is that they change whatever the coding is within FMC to allow this feature to be transferable. Not by them but by 3rd party skinners. Then, they get to keep their Full-Fat game running along nicely within their objective parameters, but we, (the customer), get what we want. The only problem is whether this is an easy fix that can just be resolved by one simple line of code, (no idea if that is likely), or if it is something quite in-depth that might have a danger of breaking something else it is linked to, (and nobody wants that).

SI have thought long and hard about introducing this 2nd style of game, and to be honest they overcame significant criticism from people like me in doing so. I thought it was just gimmicky and don't get me wrong, I still hate the idea of being able to pay for a magic sponge even though I am never going to use it, but rather than diluting either version of the game, what they want to do is for the likes of you and me to try both and choose the one that most suits the way we want to play.

The reality is that I am now probably more suited to FMC, (I was always a slow player), and it's just part stubbornness, part stupidity, part my enjoyment of my current FM14 save that stops me downloading FM15 and starting straight with FMC. SI have given us the choice and they want us to use FMC to make the money they have invested in it worthwhile. If they don't keep the two styles from converging, then all that investment in FMC will ultimately have just been thrown away. I get why they are doing, even if it doesn't particularly suit me right this very instant.

Thank you for taking the time to reply, a very insightful response.

:)

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Where did I say I wanted it? stop making stuff up.
You wouldn't be forced to use it, typical selfish attitude of some people, because you don't want to use it it shouldn't be an option.

Only thing I was maybe wrong in is the part about you wanting it yourself. Rest seems bang on to me. People can want or not want any feature, it doesn't make them selfish, it's just them having an opinion.

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I keep hearing that there is no easy way to implement this. I disagree, but I believe we miscommunicate when we label something as "easy". Something hard would be coding the multiplayer part of the game. Something hard is adding collision detection to the ME or developing AI for computer managers. On this list adding an "instant result" button, something that already (kind of) works by using a 3rd party skin, is easy. Remember that the assistant taking control of matches is already in the game and works perfectly fine (holiday). The big difference is the options you get before the match, and they take some effort to get right

This obviously doesn't adress the fact that SI doesn't want to implement it. In the end it's their game, their vision, and we're lucky to be able to both play it and come with feedback on their forums

edit: For the love of god, please stop bickering. I think this is an interesting discussion, but it will be closed pretty fast if we can't disagree with eachother without name calling. I don't want that to happen

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Good point, won't close it though, will just delete offending posts

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Put simply, my reservation is the one I've already stated about taking resources away, and SI's is probably - no confirmation beyond what Neil said earlier - that it's against the ethos of the full game, and so remains in FMC.

Nice. This is a good point. Also, this creates a discussion.

Ethos do they mean:

Ethos of the simulation (Realistic Match Day)

or

Ethos of the game (Pausing while changing tactics. And this wouldn't be realistic but it is possible in the game. Haha purist :D )

What is the ethos anyway in FM?

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Nice. This is a good point. Also, this creates a discussion.

Ethos do they mean:

Ethos of the simulation (Realistic Match Day)

or

Ethos of the game (Pausing while changing tactics. And this wouldn't be realistic but it is possible in the game. Haha purist :D )

What is the ethos anyway in FM?

It's probably hard to define - SI would be able to I imagine, but won't on these forums. Then every user will probably have a different idea.

For me, the "ethos" (it's a horrible term I know) of full-fat FM is to provide the most realistic management experience possible, whereas the ethos of FMC is to simplify that and provide a quicker, less intense game. Or something. It's hard to answer.

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I voted no, for similar reasons to those explained by forameuss. It isn't something I'd use, and I'd rather have the limited time and resources employed elsewhere.

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It's probably hard to define - SI would be able to I imagine, but won't on these forums. Then every user will probably have a different idea.

For me, the "ethos" (it's a horrible term I know) of full-fat FM is to provide the most realistic management experience possible, whereas the ethos of FMC is to simplify that and provide a quicker, less intense game. Or something. It's hard to answer.

We can now agree upon ONE ethos: If you don't have suits don't bother with trying for cup finals. :D

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Dont see the problem with using it on full fat FM tbh - i use it, the game still makes subs for me etc.

Football results are random anyway, especially a computer game... so whether I watch it in poor 3D, pointless 2D or the let down of commentary mode (bring back the old days of GOAL!!!!! he slides it in) ;) .. the score will be whatever the game wants it to be, based on calculations I cant control outside of selecting 11 players each week. So full fat, instant result works for me and I fly through seasons.

FMC has too many restrictions for me, based on not allowing modded leagues I believe, not having a database more than 50k I believe and just feels gimmicky. Full fat I can play quicker than anyone can play FMC and still have fun, i dont have scouts or use them, training is handled by the CPU, i have 1 tactic and pick a team and instant result it, let the AssMan do all pressers, let the youth team coach sort out the kids... let the DOF sort out the backroom staff, I just sign players and result games. Its fun for me, but I can see why others like things more in depth.

I could start a new game now, by midnight id at least be half way through a 2nd season and thats how I like to play it.

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I doubt I'm the only one, but the actual games were my LEAST favorite part of Football Manager; I'd much rather focus on signing/developing players and trying to raise my team's profile. Sadly, when I use FM I do it with extensive alterations made to the American leagues and a pretty hefty number of players, so FMC isn't even an option.

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Thats it and I dont think the developers understand that some players want the full mode with all its options, but at the same time, the pace of the old style of games. You dont need to use scouts to buy good players, you dont need to setup training regimes to get a winning team, you dont need to hire your own backroom staff to implement ideas, you dont need to do press conferences or talk to players to keep up morale.... of course they are nice bits of fluff and some people enjoy it and embrace it. BUT the thing is, on full fat, by avoiding all of that and just signing players to plonk into a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 basic formation without any tweaks (i just use a bog standard inbuilt tactic) you can win things with any team and you can also have bad seasons.

So for me, full fat is FMC and I need that instant result button to churn on through the seasons, rather than sit and watch the game generate the score for me.

The FM series used to be about choice and right now its a case of "you want instant result, then tough FMC is the way you have to play it". However the skins do resolve that issue partially for some (fully for me as I dont use match plans, again another piece of fluff added for the sake of it)... so I can get by, however I am at the mercy and whim of skinners as to when they create one and update one that I can use, rather than purchase the game at release and get going straight away.

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A couple of things just to clarify. Firstly if you use the FMC 'skin' on full FM, it has been known to cause issues in the past so officially we do not recommend using it as it could cause problems further down the line with your game. If your game does break, we would not be able to help if the issue was caused in this way.

In regards to why FM doesn't contain the 'instant result' - as some people have mentioned within this thread we don't want the full version of FM really to be played in that manner. From my understanding, we see FM really as a simulation of being a football manager, so skipping over the most important part of whether or not you're a good manager (the match) takes too much away from the experience. I know from speaking with Miles in the past, he is very much anti-instant result for full FM. The option is of course available in FMC, so if you want to play in that way, then of course play FMC. There are no plans for the instant result to be added to the full version of FM at this time, and I'd be very surprised if it does happen at any point.

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I understand why, shame, but your game :)

As for the skin, I dont use a FMC skin as such, its a full fat skin with that button included... I appreciate that there could be problems, but for me I just click and go. So subs are made, nothing unusual goes on ie scores etc.

Why I do it, is because its a game. I used to until this was an option always have commentary on full pelt, I didnt care what the text said in all honesty and I never made a sub unless an injury forced me and never changed tactics even if I had 3 defenders sent off. The result is all that mattered to me and I would react from that. My opinion is, the score is what the score is... I either waste time watching 3D men or 2D dots play it out, or I just get it given to me. 9 times out of 10 I bet there is no difference in outcome under normal circumstances.

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In regards to why FM doesn't contain the 'instant result' - as some people have mentioned within this thread we don't want the full version of FM really to be played in that manner. From my understanding, we see FM really as a simulation of being a football manager, so skipping over the most important part of whether or not you're a good manager (the match) takes too much away from the experience.

Holiday.

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Holiday.

So for once, SI actually come on here and give a reasoned response, lifting the lid and letting us know exactly why a certain feature hasn't been included. Good news, right?

Nah, let's just start on the what-aboutery... :rolleyes:

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A couple of things just to clarify. Firstly if you use the FMC 'skin' on full FM, it has been known to cause issues in the past so officially we do not recommend using it as it could cause problems further down the line with your game. If your game does break, we would not be able to help if the issue was caused in this way.

In regards to why FM doesn't contain the 'instant result' - as some people have mentioned within this thread we don't want the full version of FM really to be played in that manner. From my understanding, we see FM really as a simulation of being a football manager, so skipping over the most important part of whether or not you're a good manager (the match) takes too much away from the experience. I know from speaking with Miles in the past, he is very much anti-instant result for full FM. The option is of course available in FMC, so if you want to play in that way, then of course play FMC. There are no plans for the instant result to be added to the full version of FM at this time, and I'd be very surprised if it does happen at any point.

:thup::thup::thup::thup:

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Great clarification Neil Brock.

In all fairness if you like to skip over a game, hand it to your assistant by going on holiday for a single day. I do that sometimes when in pre-season, but overall it is much nicer to also sit out those games to help my identify potential weaknesses in my tactic, without it costing me a league game.

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Cut out any personal attacks in this thread please. I've just had to delete one and don't expect to do so again. Cheers.

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Anyway, to respond to the post again:

So for once, SI actually come on here and give a reasoned response, lifting the lid and letting us know exactly why a certain feature hasn't been included. Good news, right?

Nah, let's just start on the what-aboutery... :rolleyes:

I don't know what 'what-aboutery' is supposed to mean, but I was just pointing out the contradiction. If you consider that some sort of attack, akin to your attack now, you need to step back and think with a clearer head. Then apologise for attacking discussion... on a discussion forum. Insert condescending rolleyes smiley.

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Anyway, to respond to the post again:

I don't know what 'what-aboutery' is supposed to mean, but I was just pointing out the contradiction. If you consider that some sort of attack, akin to your attack now, you need to step back and think with a clearer head. Then apologise for attacking discussion... on a discussion forum. Insert condescending rolleyes smiley.

Seems like my post touched a nerve. Not really sure why, thought it was pretty easy to understand. Like I said, for once SI actually came on and explained a decision, and instead of accepting it you get "What about this". Not even that, for someone who seems to be putting a lot of stock in "discussion", what exactly was the discussion in your one-word post? Curious...with that, no wonder SI don't come back, as it must be akin to talking to a brick wall. Thankfully, most people seem to accept the explanation. That's not touching the fact that having a holiday option is only slightly similar to having an instant result option. And even if it is, who cares? SI have made their choice, and actually communicated why - which I stress, is a very rare occurrence.

The rest of your post...well, like I said, mine seemed to touch a nerve for some reason. Shame, would've liked to have read what you originally put, sounds like a right larf.

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Seems like my post touched a nerve. Not really sure why, thought it was pretty easy to understand. Like I said, for once SI actually came on and explained a decision, and instead of accepting it you get "What about this". Not even that, for someone who seems to be putting a lot of stock in "discussion", what exactly was the discussion in your one-word post? Curious...with that, no wonder SI don't come back, as it must be akin to talking to a brick wall. Thankfully, most people seem to accept the explanation. That's not touching the fact that having a holiday option is only slightly similar to having an instant result option. And even if it is, who cares? SI have made their choice, and actually communicated why - which I stress, is a very rare occurrence.

The rest of your post...well, like I said, mine seemed to touch a nerve for some reason. Shame, would've liked to have read what you originally put, sounds like a right larf.

Well I suppose it's evident now your last two responses that you're trying to be confrontational, but to respond:

In regards to why FM doesn't contain the 'instant result' - as some people have mentioned within this thread we don't want the full version of FM really to be played in that manner. From my understanding, we see FM really as a simulation of being a football manager, so skipping over the most important part of whether or not you're a good manager (the match) takes too much away from the experience.

Key points:

- Don't want skippable matches

- Want simulation of being a manager

- Matches are the most important part, absolutely integral, to the game

- Skippable matches would take too much away

Now explain Holidaying.

Thought it was 'pretty easy to understand', ahem. But I bow to your superior intellect, clearly the mistake was mine for not making it more obvious? I don't know the issue.

P.S. Also, saying you "touched a nerve" nor repeating something doesn't magically make it true. Perhaps you're projecting, since you're being oddly confrontational toward someone pointing out a problem, but it's likely tactical, trying to create arguments. My original post wasn't really any different to what I reposted.

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Well I suppose it's evident now your last two responses that you're trying to be confrontational

I'm not the one that got a post deleted for a "personal attack". I'd say that's a smidge more confrontational.

Anyway, I've made my point, and I'll save you any more fury. You can debate whether holiday mode is the same as instant result if you like, I disagree, and seems SI do too, but to each their own.

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I'm not the one that got a post deleted for a "personal attack". I'd say that's a smidge more confrontational.

Anyway, I've made my point, and I'll save you any more fury.

Thank you for again pointing out how furious I am, this is important. It lets people know you have the high ground, while I'm banging away at my keyboard because I chose to read words from a stranger and know how important the words are.

I agree that we can conclude here. It appears you read my POV, saw that you made a mistake, and are conceding. But I'm sure you'll provide an alternate reason for you going from confrontational to evasive in the space of one post.

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foremeuss, whilst I am very grateful that Neil has taken the time to clarify SI's position, I don't think that his response takes into account the point has ozzyoscy has raised.

In regards to why FM doesn't contain the 'instant result' - as some people have mentioned within this thread we don't want the full version of FM really to be played in that manner. From my understanding, we see FM really as a simulation of being a football manager, so skipping over the most important part of whether or not you're a good manager (the match) takes too much away from the experience. I know from speaking with Miles in the past, he is very much anti-instant result for full FM. The option is of course available in FMC, so if you want to play in that way, then of course play FMC. There are no plans for the instant result to be added to the full version of FM at this time, and I'd be very surprised if it does happen at any point.

Neil says that SI 1. Do not want the game to be played in that manner, and 2. believe that as a simulation game skipping through matches would take too much from the experience.

These are both good points, but unfortunately they are both made redundant by the existence of the "go on holiday" option, as ozzyoscy pointed out. Both 1 and 2 are emphatically nullified by this option. Adding in also Neil's comments about the game being a simulation, then surely we could also ask when an IRL manager has last taken a holiday during a match?

Of course, on the other side you could say that adding the feature isn't neccessary as it is already possible, as long as you don't mind your Assistant Manager getting any relevant awards in your place. I would argue that the Assistant Manager should also get sacked in your place, but that's another discussion.

My personal perception of your posting style is that you are very quick to go on the offensive, and my humble suggestion to you would be to consider the points you are attacking in more detail before you post. Hopefully you could avoid situations like this, where you go on the attack despite being totally wrong overall, as I think this contributes to the bad feeling on these forums.

In this case, what you are calling "what-aboutery" is actually a valid point, being that the inclusion of the holiday feature makes Neil's position hypocritical, as per 1 and 2. I will give you that the ozzyoscy did not make the point very well, and definitely not in a way that was most likely to lead to good discussion, and perhaps this explains your attitude towards him.

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My personal perception of your posting style is that you are very quick to go on the offensive, and my humble suggestion to you would be to consider the points you are attacking in more detail before you post. Hopefully you could avoid situations like this, where you go on the attack despite being totally wrong overall, as I think this contributes to the bad feeling on these forums.

In this case, what you are calling "what-aboutery" is actually a valid point, being that the inclusion of the holiday feature makes Neil's position hypocritical, as per 1 and 2. I will give you that the ozzyoscy did not make the point very well, and definitely not in a way that was most likely to lead to good discussion, and perhaps this explains your attitude towards him.

My personal perception would be that maybe I am sometimes, but then I'm only expressing my opinion on whatever it is. If the mods feel that is too far in any case, they'll delete the post or infract. Don't really have any issue with that. A lot of the time people don't like when you disagree with them. Have no issue with that either. I find all the talk of "attack" curious, as I didn't do anything of the sort. If the original post was deemed an attack then...well, maybe they should get out more. There is no attitude to anyone beyond the belief that everyone has a right to an opinion and to express it, but people should be allowed to disagree or say it's wrong. In this case, you're exactly right as to why the post was as it was - if he'd outlined the holiday mode idea, more than a smug one word post, I'd probably have posted differently.

As for the issue itself, I was never really addressing the holiday point itself, just the fact that SI gave a reason why they weren't going to include this specific feature. It's clear they've talked about it, probably at length, and those are the reasons why they chose not to include it. I would be absolutely amazed if someone didn't go "but then holiday mode does that" during those discussions. So that makes it kind of irrelevant - SI know that holiday mode exists, as they built it - and it makes no difference to the existence of the IR feature as a result. So my point was purely along the lines of taking a very rare occurrence - bona fide SI feedback - and instead of acknowledging the enlightenment, throwing in the "what-aboutery" as I put it.

And I would add that it probably stemmed from the frustration of SI actually coming out with something interesting, and getting that back. It's because of the actions of posters (way in the past mind) that SI don't actively participate here any more, which is extremely sad really.

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