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desmond91

Strikers don't come back in defensive phase

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Actually, I found DF(S/D) do not involve themselves enough in the defense work.

Before the 15.3 patch, DF will drop deep and constantly hassle opponents' MC and AMC, They act like a MC or AMCs in defense.

After the patch 15.3, DF will not hassle opponents at their half, rarely come back to provide help in front of his MC teammate. So there is always a gap between Forward-midfielder.

I am using "very fluid" and "balance".

I do prefer the defensive behaviors of forwards before 15.3 patch. In real football, for example, Atletico has 2 forwards drop back very deep to compress the space during defence, of course, they have to sacrifice some counter-attack opportunities by doing so.

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I agree with you. I feel they should come back deeper, have a better link with other teammates.

Of course this requirements will sacrifice counter-attack opportunities, this I can accept.

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Then you dont actually want forwards, but midfielders who push up in possession instead.

Are you joking?

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Well yes, that's common sense. To beat offside trap he needs to play high against the oppositions defence. So what was you expecting?

I wasn't sure because I saw my player (lone DLF support) dropping deep at times and sometimes making a run. It was 50/50 most of the time. I thought a player with this PPM would still drop deep but when he runs from deep he will try to beat the offside trap.

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In real football, for example, Atletico has 2 forwards drop back very deep to compress the space during defence, of course, they have to sacrifice some counter-attack opportunities by doing so.

And in real football, Liverpool played "without a striker" this weekend and had Sterling pinning Mangala back at the halfway line.

The game does not have the infinite options that real coaches have and SI has to be selective about which approaches to model. Also, for practical reasons, they set down firm definitions where things might be more vague in real football. In cases where what you want is not the norm for the vast majority of football teams, you need to think outside the box. In this case, using AMs is the way to get your most advanced players to take up default defensive positions ahead of the opposition's midfield whilst the Shadow Striker was specifically designed to give you the option of a player who defends like an AM but has the attacking intent of a traditional striker.

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And in real football, Liverpool played "without a striker" this weekend and had Sterling pinning Mangala back at the halfway line.

The game does not have the infinite options that real coaches have and SI has to be selective about which approaches to model. Also, for practical reasons, they set down firm definitions where things might be more vague in real football. In cases where what you want is not the norm for the vast majority of football teams, you need to think outside the box. In this case, using AMs is the way to get your most advanced players to take up default defensive positions ahead of the opposition's midfield whilst the Shadow Striker was specifically designed to give you the option of a player who defends like an AM but has the attacking intent of a traditional striker.

The problem of Shadow strikers is the start position, too low

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And in any case, strikers on defensive mentalities will come back to help if necessary:

CCNUJfF.png

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The problem of Shadow strikers is the start position, too low

And the problem with strikers ping-ponging between their own 18 yard line and the opposition's restraining line is that every support forward in the game was routinely accumulating higher km/90 stats than a cyborg Sven Bender.

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Actually, I found DF(S/D) do not involve themselves enough in the defense work.

Before the 15.3 patch, DF will drop deep and constantly hassle opponents' MC and AMC, They act like a MC or AMCs in defense.

After the patch 15.3, DF will not hassle opponents at their half, rarely come back to provide help in front of his MC teammate. So there is always a gap between Forward-midfielder.

I am using "very fluid" and "balance".

I do prefer the defensive behaviors of forwards before 15.3 patch. In real football, for example, Atletico has 2 forwards drop back very deep to compress the space during defence, of course, they have to sacrifice some counter-attack opportunities by doing so.

I agree, my DF(D) doesn't seem to function as a DF(D) anymore. With defend duty I expect my player to drop deep and press the oppositions midfielders. After the patch my DF is positioned too high up the pitch and as a result doesn't contribute as much defensively anymore.

This is with using Robert Lewandoski as a DF(D) who has 18 work rate and 16 teamwork (I'm using 'Very Fluid' with 'Control' mentality and 'close down more'):

lV3xtba.jpg

r72ZyFU.jpg

Surely this is not right?

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The thing is that people go for an attacking mentality because they think it's the way to attack more and score more. Well, it's not, as for me I',m very happy with my counter mentality, possession-based style and my F9 drops frequently to the midfield to close down opponents.

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The thing is that people go for an attacking mentality because they think it's the way to attack more and score more. Well, it's not, as for me I',m very happy with my counter mentality, possession-based style and my F9 drops frequently to the midfield to close down opponents.

I quite agree- I use a defensive or counter mentality and my strikers are routinely dropping into the midfield on defense, sometimes too much!

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I agree, my DF(D) doesn't seem to function as a DF(D) anymore. With defend duty I expect my player to drop deep and press the oppositions midfielders. After the patch my DF is positioned too high up the pitch and as a result doesn't contribute as much defensively anymore.

This is with using Robert Lewandoski as a DF(D) who has 18 work rate and 16 teamwork (I'm using 'Very Fluid' with 'Control' mentality and 'close down more'):

lV3xtba.jpg

r72ZyFU.jpg

Surely this is not right?

Looks fine to me. DO you really expect your ST to be back in line with the rest of your midfield here? If so, tell me exactly how he is a striker?

It has been covered numerous times in this thread, the behaviour in 15.2.1 was what was not right. It was woefully unrealistic.

A defensive striker should pressure the backline when they have the ball. With defend duty, he should come a step further and pressure a DM who picks up the ball. So for example, if you playing against Pirlo, a DF(d) could be a very good option, because he will pressure a DM who picks the ball up from the backline.

A DF is not a midfielder. He is not going to track runners back into his own teams defensive third, nor is he going to pressure central midfielders (i would be fairly sure that City are not playing with a DM In those screenshots, and if they are he is not in the area where a striker should close down).

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Looks fine to me. DO you really expect your ST to be back in line with the rest of your midfield here? If so, tell me exactly how he is a striker?

It has been covered numerous times in this thread, the behaviour in 15.2.1 was what was not right. It was woefully unrealistic.

A defensive striker should pressure the backline when they have the ball. With defend duty, he should come a step further and pressure a DM who picks up the ball. So for example, if you playing against Pirlo, a DF(d) could be a very good option, because he will pressure a DM who picks the ball up from the backline.

A DF is not a midfielder. He is not going to track runners back into his own teams defensive third, nor is he going to pressure central midfielders (i would be fairly sure that City are not playing with a DM In those screenshots, and if they are he is not in the area where a striker should close down).

After analysing a few more games in depth I'm actually starting to agree with you. I think my perception is slightly skewed by my misinterpretation of the role and how it performed in the previous patch.

However I do feel at times the DF(D) doesn't drop deep enough at times, maybe not in line with the midfield but I feel he should operate at a closer proximity in the defensive phase.

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And in real football, Liverpool played "without a striker" this weekend and had Sterling pinning Mangala back at the halfway line.

The game does not have the infinite options that real coaches have and SI has to be selective about which approaches to model. Also, for practical reasons, they set down firm definitions where things might be more vague in real football. In cases where what you want is not the norm for the vast majority of football teams, you need to think outside the box. In this case, using AMs is the way to get your most advanced players to take up default defensive positions ahead of the opposition's midfield whilst the Shadow Striker was specifically designed to give you the option of a player who defends like an AM but has the attacking intent of a traditional striker.

Thanks for the reply, I agree with you that it is difficult for the SI team to satisfy everyone's need. The reason most people complained in this post is the "change" between 15.21 and 15.3, I guess the key question is: If forwards can come back and help defending in 15.21, why not in 15.3?

I think having "deep defending forward" is not so-called nontraditional. Before Atletico, The Dutch people started their "very fluid" football in 70s. In any match engines before 15.3 (even in FM14), I can get my supporting forwards come back in defense by using "very fluid + balance", I thought that's the whole point of "very fluid": the team attacks and defends as one unit. Right now in 15.3, "very fluid" feels more like "very structured".

For these people who want the forwards to help defence, here is a small tip: having your forward mark a specific midfielder, that way they can man mark one opponent and share the defensive load of your team.

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I do not agree that the behavior in 15.21 is unrealistic.

But you made a point. I agree that if a striker comes too deep in defence, they cannot post any threats during counter attack. But what if I can accept this result, what if my tactics give up counter attack opportunities to provide a solid 11-players defending. I think that's the whole point of "very fluid" football style: the entire team attack and defend as one unit.

I guess the key difference between us is the definition of "defensive forward", either he should come deep to his own defensive third. My opinion is: supporting and defensive forwards should come back with the right team shape and mentality. Right now, the problem is that supporting and defensive forwards always behave like "very structured". This is why many "very fluid" people complain.

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If forwards can come back and help defending in 15.21, why not in 15.3?

They will help defend though, and people here have posted screens showing them do it. What they don't do is persistently drop deeper than AMs when there's no overload threat and end up routinely covering more ground than any player will actually do all season IRL. The very deep ST positioning popped up in 15.1. Positioning is now more consistent with how it was in FM14.

And defending doesn't just mean crowding your penalty area. It is important to cut off back passes and have someone who can realistically pressure the opposition's deepest players. It's also important to have an outlet who can break the opposition's offensive pressure and let the rest of the team catch their breath and reorganise. Defending your own area for any extended period of time is mentally trying. Very few teams can concede that much depth and not pay the price for it. After all, didn't Atletico concede 3 goals in that match?

In the case of total football, it was based on pressing with a high block, so it's not really comparable to an extreme park the bus strategy used by a team expecting to spend 70% of the match pressed into their own third. I think there's a case to be made for seeing this sort of positioning on a Contain mentality, but it shouldn't be the norm.

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Thanks again for your reply. I understand your point.

Well, I guess it is probably better to find a balance between 15.21 and 15.3. Or, we just have to get used to the new match engine.

Outside the topic, sometimes I just wish SI can have a bit more consistent match engine, rather than drastic modification. Every year, the match engine seems to be quite stable and welcomed at version XX.31, and next year, a new match engine XX.01 will have a bad start again until it reaches XX.31. It feels like a loop, I love this game and hope to see a continuous improvement of the match engine. I do not like loops.

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2015-03-04_00001_zpsbwshnf3a.jpg

I get the same problem too. MY striker is Dlf (s). In 15.21, he will mark circled player at least. In 15.21, that defensive position from striker can intercept some pass when the opposite side pass back to their dm.

It helped some, but it is not a big defensive problem when he does not drop deep in 15.3. Based on the new position, my striker gets lots of counter attack opportunity directly, although it is not my tactic thought.

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2015-03-04_00001_zpsbwshnf3a.jpg

I get the same problem too. MY striker is Dlf (s). In 15.21, he will mark circled player at least. In 15.21, that defensive position from striker can intercept some pass when the opposite side pass back to their dm.

It helped some, but it is not a big defensive problem when he does not drop deep in 15.3. Based on the new position, my striker gets lots of counter attack opportunity directly, although it is not my tactic thought.

That is what he should be doing, in that screenshot. If it isn't your tactical desire, and you want him marking up on that man, you have to either try a defensive forward on Defend duty (they tend to get back pretty well) or, set your DLF to man marking on that specific position

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it's possible a downgrade to latest patch?

That's not a tactic or training question so why post it in a random thread? The answer is no you can't btw.

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It's not a tactical problem its intended. You have 2 options, deal and get on with it or moan and get nowhere.

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it's only unplayble and inchoerent:

Counterattacking mentality says "all players behind the line of the ball", but in M.E forwards stay ahead the line of the ball.

This is a wrong option.

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It's unplayable lol. I'm closing the thread for you being over dramatic as the solutions and examples of strikers still defending have been proven above.

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Hey everyone :)

I think this "problem" is worth noting and still continues in current FMs. No matter what system you play, in real life forwards DO track back and take a defensive position (unless you are not playing with Zlatan or low work-rate player up front), especially during build-up plays. You don't have to be Simeone or playing Atletico to demand this from your forwards and even your strikers.

Now the thing is, there used to be a "Men Behind Ball" TI back 19-20 years ago in this game. If this instruction has existed and if demanding to get behind the ball from your players could be a main principle in football, considering the game has became much more fluid now, why SI does not consider to bring this instruction back, or at least add a "track back" PI to the game? This can create both upsides for managers who want to create more compact system and downsides for whose forwards have low stamina and positioning attributes.

I also want to note that I am quite shocked by the impolite responses that people who want to offer some solutions or address some issues have faced in this topic and felt sad, I think all issues can be discussed without being rude and everyone should avoid offending someone regarding a game. Since this is my first message to the forum, I just wanted to share my particular concern.

Kind regards

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24 minutes ago, moonprince said:

Hey everyone :)

I think this "problem" is worth noting and still continues in current FMs. No matter what system you play, in real life forwards DO track back and take a defensive position (unless you are not playing with Zlatan or low work-rate player up front), especially during build-up plays. You don't have to be Simeone or playing Atletico to demand this from your forwards and even your strikers.

Now the thing is, there used to be a "Men Behind Ball" TI back 19-20 years ago in this game. If this instruction has existed and if demanding to get behind the ball from your players could be a main principle in football, considering the game has became much more fluid now, why SI does not consider to bring this instruction back, or at least add a "track back" PI to the game? This can create both upsides for managers who want to create more compact system and downsides for whose forwards have low stamina and positioning attributes.

I also want to note that I am quite shocked by the impolite responses that people who want to offer some solutions or address some issues have faced in this topic and felt sad, I think all issues can be discussed without being rude and everyone should avoid offending someone regarding a game. Since this is my first message to the forum, I just wanted to share my particular concern.

Kind regards

What about PF (D)?

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9 minutes ago, Cadoni said:

What about PF (D)?

Yeah...it's not perfect but I get players chasing back all the way to their own 18-yard box by using that role. The problem tho is in attack...

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Cadoni said:

What about PF (D)?

Although I believe it works, this particular role limits the forward too much; dictating the player to hold up the ball, tackle harder and move into channels (I might be wrong with the latter). All I want from my forward or AMLRCs are to cover spaces and show their presence during the build-up play. Almost all the time, my forwards and attackers just watch the game even players with the ball are too near to them, and my DMC-MCs lose their positions to get closer to the players with the ball.

I usually play with Standard or Control mentality, and apply normal defensive line with lower line of engagement. I understand that players with extreme work-rate numbers with defensive roles could track back in some cases, but forwards just waiting between centre-backs while the game is played in another area and not covering any space to help the team-shape, this is not we see in real life football. For example, let's take a striker like Haaland with average work-rate attribute. He contributed to the defensive team-shape today and covered spaces and followed the ball during build-up play against Bayern today. One might say, he probably had a DF role with a Counter or Standart team mentality :) But I think demanding your forward players to get behind the ball or apply pressure is the very main principle of modern football, no matter his role or tactical discipline/work rate (unless they are too low).

Edited by moonprince

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