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desmond91

Strikers don't come back in defensive phase

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It's always tactics, and never the game itself.

And it's always the game never the user with unrealistic expectations. We could go on like this all day.

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You mean 4 defenders, 4 dm's and 2 cm's? Yes perhaps. The point is; you can't do this with 2 strikers in the striker strata. You either embrace that and set up your team differently, or you dig in your heels and insist that strikers should behave like that in normal circumstances, playing a normal 442. If you do the latter, you will be permanently disappointed :cool:

Edit: @ Hunter, post #47

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Not true, it started from open play.

Then you clearly have a very imbalanced tactic to begin with if this is true. But the fact remains, you aren't likely to see the strikers in or around your own box, that is not realistic and is an extreme.

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I've given you my instructions just below the picture. No PIs. 2xFB(A), DC(D), 2xWM(A), CM(D), DLP(S), DF(D) F9(S). Doesn't look imbalanced, does it?

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blccn.jpg

Same tactic, before 15.3. This is way more like Atletico, I'd say.

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No, 15.2 looked more like Atletico's extreme defending because striker and AM positioning was flawed in 15.2. It shouldn't be like that. I don't know how many times this needs repeating. It suited you then to have your "normal" 442 work like that, but it wasn't the way it was supposed to work. If you want to permanently play like Atletico did against Barca, you need to adjust your team formation.

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blccn.jpg

Same tactic, before 15.3. This is way more like Atletico, I'd say.

IMO, that's too deep. If I play a striker (especially in a defensive/counter attacking system) on a support duty, I want him to mop up clearances on hold up the ball to wait for support. In your screenshot, clearances will even clear the strikers so you're going to struggle to relieve pressure and retain the ball.

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whats wrong with that for a normal 4-4-2 ? i mean who says it was wrong in 15.2 it could be wrong now. its just everyone has different interpretation on where positions should be.

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It's interesting that now I showed you evidence that "normal" 4-4-2 could look like Atletico, you say that it shouldn't look like that at all. I wanted it to look like Atletico, I wanted it to be so deep. You could make totally different 4-4-2 variations, possession, attacking ones, that make strikers' positioning totally different. That's what I'm talking about. Options. And this can't be replicated in 15.3, at least not with 4-4-2.

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EXgkJJz.png

Defensive forward tracking his man into his own half.

5SrMKXK.png

I've just won the ball back but the DLF has come deep to help out but he has no-one to mark.

tbdWhzJ.png

I've been hit with a quick counter attack but the DLF is tracking back and marking one of their midfielders. But lets face it, if you expect him to get further back during attacks then you are deluded because he starts higher up the pitch, there is no way he is going to recover the amount of space needed to get back to his own box.

Hs3loWy.png

Again defending deep in my own half.

If you're expecting the strikers to defend in different areas to these then you need to realise you're being unrealistic with what you want.

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It's interesting that now I showed you evidence that "normal" 4-4-2 could look like Atletico, you say that it shouldn't look like that at all. I wanted it to look like Atletico, I wanted it to be so deep. You could make totally different 4-4-2 variations, possession, attacking ones, that make strikers' positioning totally different. That's what I'm talking about. Options. And this can't be replicated in 15.3, at least not with 4-4-2.

If you want to be pedantic then, Atletico played strikerless in their 442 and had people push up to SC positions rather than starting at SC and dropping back like you are wanting. If you're to try and add real life examples to prove your point, atleast understand it yourself before hand.

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It's interesting that now I showed you evidence that "normal" 4-4-2 could look like Atletico, you say that it shouldn't look like that at all. I wanted it to look like Atletico, I wanted it to be so deep. You could make totally different 4-4-2 variations, possession, attacking ones, that make strikers' positioning totally different. That's what I'm talking about. Options. And this can't be replicated in 15.3, at least not with 4-4-2.

You're missing the point. I don't care that you could make it look like the Atletico system previously. IMO, the Atletico system was an extreme system so it should definitely not be possible using a "normal" 4-4-2 and both my previous posts explain why. You still have the same options.

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but shouldnt the game allow us to have extreme system

Thomit mentioned about 30 replies ago use AMC's if you want extreme. You have to remember the positions you see on the tactic overview are how you line up when in defensive phases..............

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It's interesting that now I showed you evidence that "normal" 4-4-2 could look like Atletico, you say that it shouldn't look like that at all. I wanted it to look like Atletico, I wanted it to be so deep. You could make totally different 4-4-2 variations, possession, attacking ones, that make strikers' positioning totally different. That's what I'm talking about. Options. And this can't be replicated in 15.3, at least not with 4-4-2.

You are right; it does no longer look like that in 15.3. Why? Because it was a flaw with the positioning of strikers and AM's in 15.2, that got complaints, and looked all wrong when you played a "normal" tactic. This has now been corrected. Now if you want your strikers to defend 2 yards in front of your midfileders, you can't use 15.2's flawed positioning any more; you have to adjust your formation. Simple. You may disagree, but that's the way it is. Would you rather have everybody else forced to follow your interpretation of what is right? Well ... I'm sure you would, but we're not having it :rolleyes:

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Thomit mentioned about 30 replies ago use AMC's if you want extreme. You have to remember the positions you see on the tactic overview are how you line up when in defensive phases..............

well i seem to be having more luck with a complete forward and a shadow striker in the behind.

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You are right; it does no longer look like that in 15.3. Why? Because it was a flaw with the positioning of strikers and AM's in 15.2, that got complaints, and looked all wrong when you played a "normal" tactic. This has now been corrected. Now if you want your strikers to defend 2 yards in front of your midfileders, you can't use 15.2's flawed positioning any more; you have to adjust your formation. Simple. You may disagree, but that's the way it is. Would you rather have everybody else forced to follow your interpretation of what is right? Well ... I'm sure you would, but we're not having it :rolleyes:

Maybe it wasn't actually a flaw. Maybe there should be on/off option for tracking back. It would solve many problems. And, no, I am not forcing my interpretation, I am saying that my interpretation was good on 15.2.1, and I have screenshots to prove it, and now it looks like rubbish, because someone thought that strikers shouldn't defend that much. Great.

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Love how you posted 'evidence' then ignore the screenshots I posted which show the areas the strikers should be defending in and does :thup:

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What's their role and duty, your philosophy and mentality?

That was the second post, immediately after the OP.

We're now 70+ replies in and still no-one has done so. It might help you know ;)

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That was the second post, immediately after the OP.

We're now 70+ replies in and still no-one has done so. It might help you know ;)

Well it doesn't matter much, herne79, since the complaint stems from unrealistic expectations of how much and what sort of defending a striker should be doing, regardless of role and duty. 15.2 made support strikers track back far too deep, which made it look and feel wrong with most peoples tactics, but as you can see, some were happy it was that way. Now the issue has been corrected, which makes strikers position themselves more in line with what most of us feel they should, but which obviously has led to those that were happy with it in the first place, be not so happy anymore. Well that's life.

I'm done here.

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FWIW, I have a a forward who I use as a DF (S), and he will bomb back pretty deep on defense. In 15.2 he would sometimes go all the way to where you would expect a DM to set up. It is a player with very high workrate and teamwork attributes.

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how the hell do u get your deep lying forward to come so eep cause im telling u mine is stuck up feel on the spot in the same line as the AF

+1 for this. I'm not having the problems defensively as the OP but in the attacking sense I can't get him to drop deeper to link midfield and attack as described in my post #11. Any help would be appreciated.

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For info, Tony at SI replied to a bug report about this earlier today:

I can confirm that we would probably not consider this a bug. We considered 15.2.0s behaviour as extreme and therefore a bug, so this change was to rectify that. If you believe that it has gone too far the other way, please provide examples in here and we can re-consider.

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+1 for this. I'm not having the problems defensively as the OP but in the attacking sense I can't get him to drop deeper to link midfield and attack as described in my post #11. Any help would be appreciated.

You play a AMR as a IF and have the DLF on the same side, they'll be looking to drop into and play in the same space.

You must have had the same issues before the patch too though as it's only defensive positioning what's changed, what he does when you have the ball is still the exact same.

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You play a AMR as a IF and have the DLF on the same side, they'll be looking to drop into and play in the same space.

You must have had the same issues before the patch too though as it's only defensive positioning what's changed, what he does when you have the ball is still the exact same.

Hmm. I'm not sure then. The way I want it to play is that when I have the ball in the midfield area that my DLF drops into the AM strata where there is space, hopefully dragging a defender with him and the IF would run into the space vacated. At the moment all that happens is I have 3 attackers all in a line up against their defenders.

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+1 for this. I'm not having the problems defensively as the OP but in the attacking sense I can't get him to drop deeper to link midfield and attack as described in my post #11. Any help would be appreciated.

What is your system overall?

I think a lot of the problem in here is people believing that one role should work in a certain way. It needs to be part of a system, and with the right players.

The Athletico example is in a strange way a good one. Do you think for a moment that Barca could get Messi and Neymar to defend like that? Likewise, do you think Griezmann and Torres can defend like that if the team is set up with anything other than a very deep Dline, and with very deep DM players.

The vast majority of "complaint" posts here focus on one two roles and ignore the total system.

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Hmm. I'm not sure then. The way I want it to play is that when I have the ball in the midfield area that my DLF drops into the AM strata where there is space, hopefully dragging a defender with him and the IF would run into the space vacated. At the moment all that happens is I have 3 attackers all in a line up against their defenders.

But your system doesn't allow for the DLF to drop deep because you've pushed the wide players upto AML/AMR haven't you? So why will he be encouraged to drop deep when they play will be on the same level as himself? The players around him will influence what he does and the area's he will take up.

Are you also using control/attacking mentality? If so, again you are telling them to play high up the pitch.

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If you want to defend in an 'extreme' way, you're gonna have to think outside the box. Here's a 4-4-2 in attack: http://i.snag.gy/lnZHg.jpg And the same 4-4-2 in defence, with the two up top extremely far back like you want apparently: http://i.snag.gy/IJplG.jpg

Is that the way you like it? Didnt even take me a second to figure out how to do it.

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If you want to defend in an 'extreme' way, you're gonna have to think outside the box. Here's a 4-4-2 in attack: http://i.snag.gy/lnZHg.jpg And the same 4-4-2 in defence, with the two up top extremely far back like you want apparently: http://i.snag.gy/IJplG.jpg

Is that the way you like it? Didnt even take me a second to figure out how to do it.

Indeed it's very simple to recreate. The issue I believe though, is that they want them camped on edge of their own box defending and in the 6 yard box when attacking. They want both at the same time which is a hard balance and very unrealistic.

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But your system doesn't allow for the DLF to drop deep because you've pushed the wide players upto AML/AMR haven't you? So why will he be encouraged to drop deep when they play will be on the same level as himself? The players around him will influence what he does and the area's he will take up.

Are you also using control/attacking mentality? If so, again you are telling them to play high up the pitch.

I'm playing a counter mentality. I only have the IF (A) in the AM strata although I take your point as he is on the same side of the pitch as the DLF. It's just a little frustrating seeing the space between the opposition defence and midfield for him to drop into but him not doing it.

I should probably mention that I'm playing the Conference North so the standard of player will have a big impact.

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If you want your strikers to be midfielders out of possession, use the shadow striker role instead of an outright striker.

If you want your strikers to be midfielders in possession, use the false nine role.

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Or even use specific man marking. There are several ways to get strikers to drop deep.

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If the last few posts were for me I'm not complaining about the strikers positioning when defending. It's about getting a striker to link the play up.

To be fair I haven't used a F9 before but I'll give it a try - although I don't want a striker to be a midfielder when in possession, just to drop a little deeper than his striker partner and into space.

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I think that there is one valid point amongst all this - There is clearly no doubt that things changed quite dramatically from patch to patch. That in itself is a bit annoying, i acknowledge. You have a system, a patch messes with it. A little annoying.

However its clear to see that the change came from a "fix" and the fix had to be put in. It is more realistic now.

What people need to do is adapt to the corrected ME and understand what is now happening and, if needed, adapt your system. I am probably having to do the same. The way my F9 acts is now very different to how it was in 15.2.1 and it has impacted how my system works. I cannot, however, make an argument that is is now unrealistic. IT was probably unrealistic before.

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You are right; it does no longer look like that in 15.3. Why? Because it was a flaw with the positioning of strikers and AM's in 15.2, that got complaints, and looked all wrong when you played a "normal" tactic. This has now been corrected. Now if you want your strikers to defend 2 yards in front of your midfileders, you can't use 15.2's flawed positioning any more; you have to adjust your formation. Simple. You may disagree, but that's the way it is. Would you rather have everybody else forced to follow your interpretation of what is right? Well ... I'm sure you would, but we're not having it :rolleyes:

Is this a side effect of SI not doing hotfixes for this sort of thing and leaving it as is for far too long?

Not defending those two people complaining but it doesn't seem to be helped.

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Is this a side effect of SI not doing hotfixes for this sort of thing and leaving it as is for far too long?

Not defending those two people complaining but it doesn't seem to be helped.

No. If SI did a hot fix for every single ME fix that actually went into the current version, there would have been dozens and dozens of hotfixes released and people would potentially have to adjust dozens and dozens of times. They can't just fix one or two things and then release them, as the fixes would impact other areas that they were working on. They absolutely have to bundle lots and lots of fixes together in order for it to work.

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I think it's also unfortunate that little things can upset a perfectly standard tactic as well. You can set up a real life tactic for the patch you are playing (not tactics that exploit the ME) and after a new patch it can affect how your system works.

I think it can also very much depend on the player. I find Sakho and Carroll play the DF S role very differently. What does help though if you want more defensive contribution is specific man mark with your strikers. If I want a bit more security I ask both forwards to man mark the opposition full backs and they follow that instruction quite well and it doesn't seem to affect their attacking intent much.

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Rather than be a side effect of a non hot fix, its probably more a case of how we reached 15.2.1 and still had such a big issue. But thats for another place i guess.

Its entirely possible that people didnt deliberately create exploits around this, but inadvertently that is how/why their tactic was successful. It was a big part of why my 451 with F9 worked, because the F9 started so deep. I guess i do have to accept that he was not really acting like an F9 (although it felt like he was, but i can see the argument against). Now i must either change the role/duty or perhaps look at a PPM to help recreate what i had before.

Learn and adapt, not that unlike real football i suppose :)

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I have got the same problem too. I play 4-3-3 with two strikers being Complete Forwards-support. They used to help defensively in the previous patch. I don't have wingers so I have to use this tactic but I am not sure if I can be as successful as before. I dont want my players waiting in the opposition area. I want those two complete forwards to get behind the ball when the opposition have the ball.

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I have got the same problem too. I play 4-3-3 with two strikers being Complete Forwards-support. They used to help defensively in the previous patch. I don't have wingers so I have to use this tactic but I am not sure if I can be as successful as before. I dont want my players waiting in the opposition area. I want those two complete forwards to get behind the ball when the opposition have the ball.

Then you dont actually want forwards, but midfielders who push up in possession instead.

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If there is one lingering issue, i think its the F9 in possession and out. I dont think the F9 should necesarily be contributing to defending and he shouldnt be behind the ball, but when we are in possession deep (eg say with our fullbacks), or when we are defending in our box, the F9 should play in an AMC slot not an ST slot. That is the point in the "false" part of the name. He should not act like a DLF(s). He should be deeper.

At the moment, i think the F9 plays as high, if not higher than a DLF(s) when we are in possesion. However, i need to do some proper comparisons and screenshots tonight to see if its just perception or if i can evidence it.

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Has anyone noticed that a striker with the PPM tries to beat offside trap is less inclined to drop deep because he tries to beat the offside trap?

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Has anyone noticed that a striker with the PPM tries to beat offside trap is less inclined to drop deep because he tries to beat the offside trap?

Well yes, that's common sense. To beat offside trap he needs to play high against the oppositions defence. So what was you expecting?

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I guess this is something like two dishes on the bathroom-scale :-) On one dish there's a lot of people wanting impossible things, like I want my striker to score, pass, drible, and come all the way down to defend. They're supposed to be players, not Clark Kent :lol: On the other dish, it's with some frequency we see players just standing instead of closing down. I've been noticing that when my team takes a corner, two things happen: 1) the player doesn't cumply the short corner instruction; 2) if the opponent regains possession, my players don't close down the opponent with ball but, instead, they start running to their own positions.

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A lot depends on mentality too. I just watched a match where I used a counter strategy, and what do you know? Both my DF and AF were tracked back well into my half to defend. At higher mentalities, they stayed higher. Funny how that works.

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I use Counter and Control, sometimes my F9 drops to midfield closing down, sometimes he's just there, zombie thing, both Control and Counter mentalities. Have to say though that Wingers / IFs improved a lot this FM edition, well done.

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