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Bust the Net - Football Manager Tactics

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7 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Width applies only in attack. Without seeing the tactic I reckon he wanted more of the play to go down the flanks in attack.

 I don't think any one manager has a specific tempo for all teams, Barca and Bayern played at different tempos when he managed them both

I agree that you need a top heavy system to play a gengen pressing style but you can achieve it with a 41221 a 433 and some versions of the 451. What you need to do is to set max close down settings on your front group. This is what I do in nearly all my games its called the High Block.

I do feel that the Gergen system can be achieved with less shouts

Thank you for your prompt response.

You can see his tactic on the strikerless url I pasted in my original post but I will paste the links to the image URLs for his tactics for your easier reference:

cp008.png?w=700&h=530

Attached is his tactic that I applied to the team I'm currently managing. He plays with a strikerless formation. Anyway, that's not the route I'm going. I'm going with a 4-3-3/4-1-2-2-1 fyi. I just wanted to show you the role he uses on the players. 

1) How do I translate his gegen-pressing teamprint onto my Chelsea for a 4-1-2-2-1? I used to play with 4-2-3-1 in FM15 but I felt that a 4-1-2-2-1 offers more stability and better for a possession based tactic. 

2) I've read somewhere before that in a more rigid/structured system, we should use more specialist roles and for a more fluid system, to use more generalist roles as specialist roles dont do much in a fluid system. What I don't understand is how a system say for eg like Very Fluid will affect the mentality of my two IFs. Just to give you an example to make it easier to answer my question:

- What's the difference between an IF (s) and IF (a) in Very Fluid system on a "Team Attacking mentality"?

- What's the difference between an IF (s) and IF (a) in Very Fluid system on " Team Control mentality"?

I thought that the fluid nature of the system meant that the personal mentality of the player didn't matter that much because the fluid nature of the system dictates that team mentality will overwrite player mentality. 

I'm basically unsure of when to set Hazard as IF (s) or IF (a) and the same goes for Willian, Kenedy, etc. 

20161201224439_1.jpg

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Ok before we go any further...which type of pressing are you referring to? Gegen Pressing is not new. There are principally three styles you can apply. Sacchi, Pep or Klopp. Lets ignore LVGs one.

The goal of Counter Pressing, is to prevent another side from launching a counter. The 3 approaches do it differently.

Secondly is this for FM17 or 16?

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Hmm there was a simple reason why that specialist/generalist note was done, in the days or yore, we had one mentality for all in very fluid, therefore we didn't want to have many players running around with different locked in roles that encouraged a split from the pattern. Today its a different matter altogether. You can have specialists role within a highly fluid system, it just requires you to pay a bit more attention since Creative Freedom got mixed into it. Those specialist roles sometimes have more creative freedom and some have no creative freedom. So you need to read the PIs of all the so called specialist roles to determine which ones you need. 

To make things easier, I just ignore specialist vs generalists. I have been known to use 11 generalists in a structured team. The difference between both shapes simply lies in how much more " out of the box" thinking you need for your team. One can safely argue that even a team in non league football can play a highly fluid system well. Since the side already has players with low CF, the higher shape settings may encourage them to try things they ordinarily wouldn't. Getiing them out of their comfort zones.  All you need to do when it comes down to shape is ask yourself this question. If I go on a lower shape setting, my players will need to move the ball around a bit further than usual, and there will be more space. Do I have enough players moving into open space for that? Is there anything I can do via roles to encourage that? 

When it comes to Highly Fluid settings, the reverse applies..how do I make space available to be exploited? How do I move the other team around so my players get space...see the subtle difference? 

The difference between IF(A) and (S) lies in the PIs that are locked. You can find out what these are in the game, the only difference in both mentalities is the kind of runs he is going to make since mentality is a risk barometer. He tries more things on a higher mentality than a lower one, and is willing to take more chances.

There is no overriding of team/individual mentalities in the game via shape, player mentality is affected by shape changes that's true, but there is more under the hood than that. Plus you should ask Guido since its his take on gegenpressing. He could have other requirements to make it work the way he does. I have different ways to achieve counter pressing in my games too, but its different from his

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Rashidi,

I'm interested to learn from you how to create better space in more compact highly fluid shapes. Could you explain in a little more detail about that, please? Is it more about the duties in highly fluid shapes, while roles in more structured shapes?

Also, how would the three different pressing systems (Sacchi, Pep, Klopp) would be represented in FM instructions?

Thanks

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Rashidi in your addicted to fm blog you spoke about starting a game on defensive structured and then moving to Control structured if you still cannot beak down a side. Would you also start with defensive structured if you were playing with a top side like Arsenal or Chelsea?

From what I read on these forums when you play with a top side then most of the other teams will sit deep and not over commit players forward so not get opened up. 

Now if you are starting with defensive mentality would this not make it much harder to break these side downs because of playing with a mentality that has a low risk tolerance.

Would like to get your feedback on this 

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8 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Ok before we go any further...which type of pressing are you referring to? Gegen Pressing is not new. There are principally three styles you can apply. Sacchi, Pep or Klopp. Lets ignore LVGs one.

The goal of Counter Pressing, is to prevent another side from launching a counter. The 3 approaches do it differently.

Secondly is this for FM17 or 16?

- Looking at Pep and Klopp. I'm interested to understand and learn how it's done differently i.e. 433/4221 vs 4231

- FM16

7 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Hmm there was a simple reason why that specialist/generalist note was done, in the days or yore, we had one mentality for all in very fluid, therefore we didn't want to have many players running around with different locked in roles that encouraged a split from the pattern. Today its a different matter altogether. You can have specialists role within a highly fluid system, it just requires you to pay a bit more attention since Creative Freedom got mixed into it. Those specialist roles sometimes have more creative freedom and some have no creative freedom. So you need to read the PIs of all the so called specialist roles to determine which ones you need. 

To make things easier, I just ignore specialist vs generalists. I have been known to use 11 generalists in a structured team. The difference between both shapes simply lies in how much more " out of the box" thinking you need for your team. One can safely argue that even a team in non league football can play a highly fluid system well. Since the side already has players with low CF, the higher shape settings may encourage them to try things they ordinarily wouldn't. Getiing them out of their comfort zones.  All you need to do when it comes down to shape is ask yourself this question. If I go on a lower shape setting, my players will need to move the ball around a bit further than usual, and there will be more space. Do I have enough players moving into open space for that? Is there anything I can do via roles to encourage that? 

When it comes to Highly Fluid settings, the reverse applies..how do I make space available to be exploited? How do I move the other team around so my players get space...see the subtle difference? 

The difference between IF(A) and (S) lies in the PIs that are locked. You can find out what these are in the game, the only difference in both mentalities is the kind of runs he is going to make since mentality is a risk barometer. He tries more things on a higher mentality than a lower one, and is willing to take more chances.

There is no overriding of team/individual mentalities in the game via shape, player mentality is affected by shape changes that's true, but there is more under the hood than that. Plus you should ask Guido since its his take on gegenpressing. He could have other requirements to make it work the way he does. I have different ways to achieve counter pressing in my games too, but its different from his

1) Ok, I think I kind of understand the difference... so train of thought would go as follows:

For lower shape settings = less compact team = more space to exploit. What roles can I change to exploit those spaces? 

For higher shape settings = more compact team = less space to exploit. What (mentality/roles?) can I change to create space to be exploited? 

2) Yep, I understand the difference b/w IF(A) and (S)  in that the PIs are locked but I was just confused/unsure about how much is changed from the overall team mentality imposed on them. Maybe I didnt explain myself clearly. For eg. What is the difference between:

- an IF(A) on a team with Very Fluid on control or even balanced team mentality 

VS 

- an IF(S) on a team with Very Fluid on Attacking team mentality? 

Do they end up playing the same way because the personal mentalities and team mentalities cancel each other out? 

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54 minutes ago, gordo179 said:

Do they end up playing the same way because the personal mentalities and team mentalities cancel each other out? 

according to my understanding, the players on support will still look to.. 'support', however the mentality will affect the amount of risk they're willing to take. If you look at the FM description of duties for each role, you will notice there is a change in the general way a player plays, i.e. movement, shooting, passing depending on defend/support/attack duties. The mentality usually relates to a) instruction to take more/less risks b) the speed at which that is done i.e. with an attacking mentality the player will have less time to analyse the situation and make a decision. 

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56 minutes ago, LPQR said:

according to my understanding, the players on support will still look to.. 'support', however the mentality will affect the amount of risk they're willing to take. If you look at the FM description of duties for each role, you will notice there is a change in the general way a player plays, i.e. movement, shooting, passing depending on defend/support/attack duties. The mentality usually relates to a) instruction to take more/less risks b) the speed at which that is done i.e. with an attacking mentality the player will have less time to analyse the situation and make a decision. 

What he said :-)

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57 minutes ago, LPQR said:

according to my understanding, the players on support will still look to.. 'support', however the mentality will affect the amount of risk they're willing to take. If you look at the FM description of duties for each role, you will notice there is a change in the general way a player plays, i.e. movement, shooting, passing depending on defend/support/attack duties. The mentality usually relates to a) instruction to take more/less risks b) the speed at which that is done i.e. with an attacking mentality the player will have less time to analyse the situation and make a decision. 

Thank you @LPQR!

@Rashidi

"For higher shape settings = more compact team = less space to exploit. What (mentality/roles?) can I change to create space to be exploited?  "

My question is: How can I create space to be exploited when roles and individual duties dont matter that much in a Very Fluid team shape since the only setting I can really play with is Team Instructions to affect the team strategy mostly as roles/duties dont matter that much anymore? 

 

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7 hours ago, James9 said:

Rashidi in your addicted to fm blog you spoke about starting a game on defensive structured and then moving to Control structured if you still cannot beak down a side. Would you also start with defensive structured if you were playing with a top side like Arsenal or Chelsea?

From what I read on these forums when you play with a top side then most of the other teams will sit deep and not over commit players forward so not get opened up. 

Now if you are starting with defensive mentality would this not make it much harder to break these side downs because of playing with a mentality that has a low risk tolerance.

Would like to get your feedback on this 

In FM 17 I actually went defensive/very fluid in one game, its the ultimate extreme of one end to try and get your team to be defensive. I won't recommend it to most people, but it can be done successfully. It was against Real Madrid and I had no chance of winning the game, we were playing away, and my team was a lot weaker than theirs. However I managed to play with a pressing game that embodied the principles of Pep Guardiola, it may not necessarily have been positionally the same, but the goal of preventing them from getting effective passing lanes to my goal worked. We shut them out.

If I were to play against a really tough side, there are many strategies I could take, I list them out in my book, which I am trying to finish now but I keep adding more and more chapters, its nearly complete, and it will show how you can take a team and make them play different ways using the shouts and PIs.

Playing on a defensive mentality is not necessarily a bad thing, it just means that you need to do a bit more in terms of player selection and role/duty choice to make them score goals. You need to have a system to score. Looking at the diagram below, you notice I am playing with a WINGBACK, a 4312 away from home against a 4231 that should rip me up. Instead, they spent most of the time finding every passing lane blocked and crosses being intercepted by Jansson of all people. He had 15 interceptions in that game alone. My midfield was intercepting passes too. Here I am playing defensively to shut them out, so my player selection and my specific player instructions may be different from a game I may play against say a weaker side.

In this game I was playing a normal defensive line as well, I will be putting up a video soon on Counter Pressing and how you can achieve it in FM, once my hearing is back. Apparently I have been sick the last few weeks, its knocked me over and I can't do any youtube shows, cos I can't hear myself speak.

When you play defensive, your role and duty selection will impact the way you move the ball around. The formation you play against will also do the same thing. We did have a few clear cut chances in the game against RM, unfortunately, my strikers couldn't finish them. 

The question you ask is all about tolerance, how much risk are you willing to bear? I was willing to take a draw but not a defeat, so I set myself up to do that. However if I had gone counter or control, chances are we would have lost, I would have been beaten on transitions. Putting more men behind the halfway line would not have helped either. If I plan to win, then thats a different matter altogether, then I consider role/duty change or I go to a higher mentality.

Defensive Fluid.jpg

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14 minutes ago, gordo179 said:

Thank you @LPQR!

@Rashidi

"For higher shape settings = more compact team = less space to exploit. What (mentality/roles?) can I change to create space to be exploited?  "

My question is: How can I create space to be exploited when roles and individual duties dont matter that much in a Very Fluid team shape since the only setting I can really play with is Team Instructions to affect the team strategy mostly as roles/duties dont matter that much anymore? 

 

Who said roles and duties don't matter much in a Very Fluid system, they matter the world, thats how you create exploitable space. Some roles are pivot roles, others are not. Decide which kind of roles you want pivots for and which ones you want working off them. Players find space, space does not find players

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6 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Who said roles and duties don't matter much in a Very Fluid system, they matter the world, thats how you create exploitable space. Some roles are pivot roles, others are not. Decide which kind of roles you want pivots for and which ones you want working off them.

The implications from wwfan's thread: 

 

... in which I gathered the following info:

- do you prefer alter Mentality mainly by Roles? Go for Very Rigid

- do you prefer alter Mentality mainly by a mix of Roles and Duties? Go for Rigid

- do you prefer alter Mentality by Duties? Go for Balanced

- do you prefer alter Mentality by a mix of Strategy and Duties? Go for Fluid

- do you prefer alter Mentality by Strategy? Go for Very Fluid

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3 minutes ago, gordo179 said:

The implications from wwfan's thread: 

 

... in which I gathered the following info:

- do you prefer alter Mentality mainly by Roles? Go for Very Rigid

- do you prefer alter Mentality mainly by a mix of Roles and Duties? Go for Rigid

- do you prefer alter Mentality by Duties? Go for Balanced

- do you prefer alter Mentality by a mix of Strategy and Duties? Go for Fluid

- do you prefer alter Mentality by Strategy? Go for Very Fluid

it looks to me like you're looking for very simple answers to quite complex issues :) if so, i guarantee, there's no handbook, guideline or checklist that you can read in 10 minutes and understand the tactical creator from it. I know this sounds negative, but think about it this way: try to see how FM describes each instruction and how it influences 'aspects of play'. After all, this is a game/simulator that is actually very successful in replicating real life football and the tactical complexity of the game, it can't bee too easy, eh? :) Once you understand what each instruction does, what aspects of play does it affect and its role in the bigger picture, and by that what I really mean is witness it happening in front of your eyes - you will do the maths in your head in a split-second without even realizing it. To refer to to the issue you touched as well, mentality and duties and how they interact with each other is pretty complex and has various implications that are limited in some aspects of play and more expressed in others. Mentality relates to 'wilingness to take risks' primarily, however it has effects on a number of other key issues, as you will notice in the tactical creator- for example changing the mentality from defensive to attacking will increase width, push the d-line higher, reduce time-wasting and so on. Personally, I believe having an idea of how you want to play in the first place is crucial. My advice is start simple, think of a system, as simple as it can be, and try the instructions out and see what they do. As you will play more and more, you will see more patterns clicking into place and more things starting to make sense. Be patient and evaluate things accordingly - don't expect to overachieve instantly and don't be too quick to blame your tactics if things aren't working out. Turn your experience into building blocks of knowledge by learning from every experience you have in game. It takes a lot of patience initially, but if you want to get to the point where you're confident enough to have faith in your own decisions, and are successful in your design of systems and styles of football, you need to work on your very own understanding of the game. Don't forget, even Rashidi, Cleon and every other FM player who is good at this game have their very own, unique way of interpreting the game, and they perhaps refer to the same issues but formulate it differently and have different reasoning. So it is a form of maths, if you wish, but this is the best answer I can give without excluding important issues which would otherwise take me months to talk about and that I'm still not sure qualify as 100% truths, and without sounding completely reductionist. I hope this helps :)

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3 minutes ago, LPQR said:

it looks to me like you're looking for very simple answers to quite complex issues :) if so, i guarantee, there's no handbook, guideline or checklist that you can read in 10 minutes and understand the tactical creator from it. I know this sounds negative, but think about it this way: try to see how FM describes each instruction and how it influences 'aspects of play'. After all, this is a game/simulator that is actually very successful in replicating real life football and the tactical complexity of the game, it can't bee too easy, eh? :) Once you understand what each instruction does, what aspects of play does it affect and its role in the bigger picture, and by that what I really mean is witness it happening in front of your eyes - you will do the maths in your head in a split-second without even realizing it. To refer to to the issue you touched as well, mentality and duties and how they interact with each other is pretty complex and has various implications that are limited in some aspects of play and more expressed in others. Mentality relates to 'wilingness to take risks' primarily, however it has effects on a number of other key issues, as you will notice in the tactical creator- for example changing the mentality from defensive to attacking will increase width, push the d-line higher, reduce time-wasting and so on. Personally, I believe having an idea of how you want to play in the first place is crucial. My advice is start simple, think of a system, as simple as it can be, and try the instructions out and see what they do. As you will play more and more, you will see more patterns clicking into place and more things starting to make sense. Be patient and evaluate things accordingly - don't expect to overachieve instantly and don't be too quick to blame your tactics if things aren't working out. Turn your experience into building blocks of knowledge by learning from every experience you have in game. It takes a lot of patience initially, but if you want to get to the point where you're confident enough to have faith in your own decisions, and are successful in your design of systems and styles of football, you need to work on your very own understanding of the game. Don't forget, even Rashidi, Cleon and every other FM player who is good at this game have their very own, unique way of interpreting the game, and they perhaps refer to the same issues but formulate it differently and have different reasoning. So it is a form of maths, if you wish, but this is the best answer I can give without excluding important issues which would otherwise take me months to talk about and that I'm still not sure qualify as 100% truths, and without sounding completely reductionist. I hope this helps :)

Haha, thanks @LPQR. I'm certainly not expecting to understand the game after reading about it for 10 minutes. I've been playing this game since FM 07 or 08 but lazily i.e. picking an already strong team and just playing safe, possession football and getting away with it all these years because I've picked strong teams with technically and attributively strong players. On top of that, I read a lot of other players tactics and just plug n play/mimic their tactics without thinking too much for myself. 

But alas, I've finally decided to make more effort this year coz I got bored of just winning without thinking. 

I've actually read quite a fair few material on tactics, mentality and shape:

Bust the Net: Football Manager Tactics (by Rashidi): http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/420475-Bust-the-Net-Football-Manager-Tactics

Pairs and Combinations (by LLama3): http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/375632-Pairs-amp-Combinations-FM2015-UPDATED

All the  "The Art of..." Series by Cleon. 

Various articles here and there both from Cleon's and Rashidi's personal blogs too. 

I initially thought I understood team shape and mentality quite well when I was using a structured possession based tactic based on Cleon's art of possession article but then found that I was only winning games marginally 1-0 or even drawing a lot of the time. I decided that maybe it was time to deploy a more creative and unpredictable tactic and I thought what better way to do that then to start adopting a fluid shape into my tactic and that's when it all fell apart. Player roles and duties I've been led to believe arent as effective in more fluid shapes since fluid shapes are more about a general team strategy as opposed to individual functions. That generalist roles are more apt for more fluid team shapes. This has had me at a lost on what roles and duty to set on my players now since they no longer mean as much as they did when I had a structured team shape and specialist roles actually meant they did what the game describes them to do. 

 

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2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

In FM 17 I actually went defensive/very fluid in one game, its the ultimate extreme of one end to try and get your team to be defensive. I won't recommend it to most people, but it can be done successfully. It was against Real Madrid and I had no chance of winning the game, we were playing away, and my team was a lot weaker than theirs. However I managed to play with a pressing game that embodied the principles of Pep Guardiola, it may not necessarily have been positionally the same, but the goal of preventing them from getting effective passing lanes to my goal worked. We shut them out.

If I were to play against a really tough side, there are many strategies I could take, I list them out in my book, which I am trying to finish now but I keep adding more and more chapters, its nearly complete, and it will show how you can take a team and make them play different ways using the shouts and PIs.

Playing on a defensive mentality is not necessarily a bad thing, it just means that you need to do a bit more in terms of player selection and role/duty choice to make them score goals. You need to have a system to score. Looking at the diagram below, you notice I am playing with a WINGBACK, a 4312 away from home against a 4231 that should rip me up. Instead, they spent most of the time finding every passing lane blocked and crosses being intercepted by Jansson of all people. He had 15 interceptions in that game alone. My midfield was intercepting passes too. Here I am playing defensively to shut them out, so my player selection and my specific player instructions may be different from a game I may play against say a weaker side.

In this game I was playing a normal defensive line as well, I will be putting up a video soon on Counter Pressing and how you can achieve it in FM, once my hearing is back. Apparently I have been sick the last few weeks, its knocked me over and I can't do any youtube shows, cos I can't hear myself speak.

When you play defensive, your role and duty selection will impact the way you move the ball around. The formation you play against will also do the same thing. We did have a few clear cut chances in the game against RM, unfortunately, my strikers couldn't finish them. 

The question you ask is all about tolerance, how much risk are you willing to bear? I was willing to take a draw but not a defeat, so I set myself up to do that. However if I had gone counter or control, chances are we would have lost, I would have been beaten on transitions. Putting more men behind the halfway line would not have helped either. If I plan to win, then thats a different matter altogether, then I consider role/duty change or I go to a higher mentality.

Defensive Fluid.jpg

So if you play in a defensive mentality against say a weaker team then would you say would add more attacking roles and duties

woukd you also say shape could be very important. Because defensive mentality is a risk tolerance.

You played with defensive very fluid  against RM. What I am trying to understand is with very fluid you have more players joining in transitions wish could then see your team get exposed on the counter because everyone is so compact and all it would take is a ball from defence and then you are exposed 

I am trying to see how this all fits together

Edited by James9

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2 hours ago, LPQR said:

it looks to me like you're looking for very simple answers to quite complex issues :) if so, i guarantee, there's no handbook, guideline or checklist that you can read in 10 minutes and understand the tactical creator from it. I know this sounds negative, but think about it this way: try to see how FM describes each instruction and how it influences 'aspects of play'. After all, this is a game/simulator that is actually very successful in replicating real life football and the tactical complexity of the game, it can't bee too easy, eh? :) Once you understand what each instruction does, what aspects of play does it affect and its role in the bigger picture, and by that what I really mean is witness it happening in front of your eyes - you will do the maths in your head in a split-second without even realizing it. To refer to to the issue you touched as well, mentality and duties and how they interact with each other is pretty complex and has various implications that are limited in some aspects of play and more expressed in others. Mentality relates to 'wilingness to take risks' primarily, however it has effects on a number of other key issues, as you will notice in the tactical creator- for example changing the mentality from defensive to attacking will increase width, push the d-line higher, reduce time-wasting and so on. Personally, I believe having an idea of how you want to play in the first place is crucial. My advice is start simple, think of a system, as simple as it can be, and try the instructions out and see what they do. As you will play more and more, you will see more patterns clicking into place and more things starting to make sense. Be patient and evaluate things accordingly - don't expect to overachieve instantly and don't be too quick to blame your tactics if things aren't working out. Turn your experience into building blocks of knowledge by learning from every experience you have in game. It takes a lot of patience initially, but if you want to get to the point where you're confident enough to have faith in your own decisions, and are successful in your design of systems and styles of football, you need to work on your very own understanding of the game. Don't forget, even Rashidi, Cleon and every other FM player who is good at this game have their very own, unique way of interpreting the game, and they perhaps refer to the same issues but formulate it differently and have different reasoning. So it is a form of maths, if you wish, but this is the best answer I can give without excluding important issues which would otherwise take me months to talk about and that I'm still not sure qualify as 100% truths, and without sounding completely reductionist. I hope this helps :)

While that book was relevant for FM2012, 2013, 2014 and maybe 2015, things began changing under the hood a great deal. We had more roles introduced and some elements of the game changed. Now what Richard wrote was meant to be a simple guide to a complex issue. It's not meant to be a hardcoded rule, even when the in game hints tell me I should be using more attacking duties I just ignore it. Its good to know that you need attacking duties, but the question at the end of the day is how do you control space within different shapes. And that only really happened in FM16.

The easiest way for me to explain this is taking wwfan's explanation and simplifying it further. 

Highly Structured  & Structured systems require you to think about who will create the plays that the space offers. These systems do need some form of playmaking role and duties that can run into and move around the spaces. Alternatively you can consider heavy modification of generic player instructions.

Flexible systems are balanced by nature, you just need to consider how you want to control space, and where you want to do it. Then you choose between the right kind of roles and team instructions. Flexible systems are the most adaptable.

Fluid and Highly fluid systems are characterised by groups of players that work together in transitions. These systems place a high demand on the right kind of attributes to effect the most varied styles of play. Since all the duties can work together seamlessly in transitions, you need to consider carefully which players are given creative roles, and which have support roles. Failure to do this, will cause your sides to lose coherence.

All shapes can be used at any kind of football, the only thing stopping you from using different shapes with the same team are the distribution of attributes within your team.

Structured systems place a high burden on physicals and work-rate, whilst fluid systems place a high burden on teamwork, work-rate, first touch, decisions and concentration.

You will need to wait for the book to find out how you can put all of this together, meanwhile I gotta go and finish the chapter my last two sections. It already is bursting at nearly 200 pages.

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28 minutes ago, James9 said:

So if you play in a defensive mentality against say a weaker team then would you say would add more attacking roles and duties

woukd you also say shape could be very important. Because defensive mentality is a risk tolerance.

You played with defensive very fluid  against RM. What I am trying to understand is with very fluid you have more players joining in transitions wish could then see your team get exposed on the counter because everyone is so compact and all it would take is a ball from defence and then you are exposed 

I am trying to see how this all fits together

Yes having more players move in transitions playing very fluid, also means that you can have more players move during different types of transitions. I wanted to defend in packs. So the team at risk of being countered wasn't me, it was Real Madrid. And I also used the right combinations of duties to effect counters without being too exposed, my only issue was converting my clear cut chances. In fact in terms of ratios, I did better than RM

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6 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Yes having more players move in transitions playing very fluid, also means that you can have more players move during different types of transitions. I wanted to defend in packs. So the team at risk of being countered wasn't me, it was Real Madrid. And I also used the right combinations of duties to effect counters without being too exposed, my only issue was converting my clear cut chances. In fact in terms of ratios, I did better than RM

So effectively you could play a defensive/very fluid if you do not want to lose a game but most importantly the role an duties will need to be correct in order to create goal scoring opportunities. I only play with Arsenal so most teams I play against will sit back so I have to find a way to break them down which is quite difficult sometimes I have watched your last video and tried to implement the mentality and team shape that you mentioned if trying to get in on a side but still found it difficult.

basically I stayed with Standard/Structured then push the d line up a little. I then went with Control/Structured and push the d line up to higher that did not get me through either. I eventually went with Control/Fluid push up d Line whipped crosses. I even put my front 3 players on max closing down and tackle harder. Changed my full backs from support to attack. I was playing with a 4231. 

Could you advice what I could have done differently. 

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Quote

So effectively you could play a defensive/very fluid if you do not want to lose a game but most importantly the role an duties will need to be correct in order to create goal scoring opportunities

Surely this applies to everything regardless of strategy/shape you use?

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6 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Surely this applies to everything regardless of strategy/shape you use?

Just trying to understand the game mate. Thanks for your feedback anyway. 

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32 minutes ago, James9 said:

Just trying to understand the game mate. Thanks for your feedback anyway. 

My point being regardless of the shape, mentality you use the roles and duties have to fit. You need enough runners, you need enough support, you need players who can supply the ball to the people you want scoring goals etc. It's all about the balance of the side. In defensive strategies you can afford to have more attacking duties because naturally everything is more cautious than an attacking strategy and the same applies to the reverse too. In attacking formations you can afford to have less attacking duties if you wish.

Quote

basically I stayed with Standard/Structured then push the d line up a little. I then went with Control/Structured and push the d line up to higher that did not get me through either

Was this the right move though? If the opposition are sat back, when you pushed the d-line up did you take space away from your own players and give them less time and space? The chances are you did. It's not always logical to go higher against weaker sides who are sat back because depending on your tactics, role and duties this might detract from the natural movement you create. When you push up against these type of sides you make things more congested and crowded. Sometimes taking the opposite approach and having runners from deeper areas and players playing in free space in front of the opposition can open and create plenty of space.

Quote

 I eventually went with Control/Fluid push up d Line whipped crosses. I even put my front 3 players on max closing down and tackle harder

All good and well but did you have players getting into the box to get onto the end of crosses? Highly unlikely if the opposition are deep and you're struggling to break them down.

Quote

Changed my full backs from support to attack. I was playing with a 4231. 

When you made all the changes you mention above how did this change your playstyle from its default? We don't know how you've been playing but its an important question because you need to understand how changes you make impact what was going on. When you changed the fullback to more attacking, how was this more beneficial? What was he doing what he wasn't doing before? How was he now linking up with the rest of the players? What was his purpose.

The same with the crosses above, how did this alter play? What players were making runs into the box to get onto the end of the crosses? And realistically were the players doing it consistently and was it beneficial?

The three players you instructed to close down more how did this alter your approach, what did they give you that they weren't before? Did it work? 

I don't mean to be harsh but you are constantly asking for how you can improve or what you could have done different. However I think the issue lies with the above and you don't understand two important things. The first being how the shape you've created works both positives and negatives. Secondly I don't think you know the impact of what the changes you make has on the setting you use and deviate away from the normal style. Until you figure these fundamental basics out no matter what you do, you'll always be searching for the same answers. How long have you been trying to get the 4231 to work now, 2 years? I'm not saying this to be harsh or critical as I've tried to help you on numerous occasions. I'm saying it as I want you to be able to create the stuff you want to create. But you're stuck in the cycle of trying absolutely everything at the minute without understanding the basics and its rinse and repeat continuously. I feel from your posts you simply over complicate the game for yourself and a more simplistic approach would be so much more beneficial for you. Ignore what you've read or what other people do and just go back are relearn the basics of what you are creating. Understand fully why it works or doesn't, that's all you need to do.

If needs be start a new thread highlighting your approach, what you changed and why. Document everything and I guarantee at some point during the thread you'll understand your system, it's faults and flaws along with the good stuff. Then and only then would I get hung up on the finer details or the more complex approaches and strategies. But even then, if something is working how you expect then why explore anything else?

Arsene Wenger is a real life version of this. He had a system that worked greatly and then rather than sticking to it, he started to adapt to the more European approach and chasing tactical trends. Somewhere along the line he lost the Arsenal way imo. Yes they still produced players and gave youth a chance etc but that's not the same. I feel somewhere he lost the tactical identity that served him so well. A lot of FM'ers do the same, they start exploring other trends and concepts that are more intricate and complicate the game for themselves without ever needing to. Don't fall into this trap, start again with the basics instead :)

Aldo don't base how you play on how someone else plays especially someone like myself or @Rashidi. We don't think like the average FM'er and have a vast knowledge of how the game works but out of the box and how things work under the hood. It becomes like instinct after working on the game and the CM/FM series for the past 2 decades. Comparing how we play to the average user only creates confusion and frustration. Instead try and use the ideas we speak about and adapt them to suit your own needs and the way you play. But at the end of it all, it comes down to trial and error to get a better understanding of what works and why. No amount of videos or articles can make up for that.

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14 minutes ago, Cleon said:

don't base how you play on how someone else plays especially someone like myself or Rashidi

God this, this and more this.

When I first found this forum I tended to simply take things that the likes of Cleon and Rashidi were writing and basically copy them into my game.  Some of it would work, a lot didn't and I wouldn't know why which frustrated the hell out of me.  So I stripped it all back, asked a few basic questions and started to see how things link together.  This helped me develop my own way of playing based on the core principles that Cleon / Rashidi have been writing about for years.

I'll never have the amount of in-depth knowledge that Cleon and Rashidi have, but so long as you can grasp the core principles you'll get on just fine.  With that core knowledge the game can become pretty simple - it's us managers who tend to over complicate and over think things.

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39 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I'll never have the amount of in-depth knowledge that Cleon and Rashidi have, but so long as you can grasp the core principles you'll get on just fine.  With that core knowledge the game can become pretty simple - it's us managers who tend to over complicate and over think things.

I totally agree.... I actually think both Cleon and Rashidi have been saying this all along.... Don't copy us but try to understand how things are working in the game and then build around that. Do that by watching the games and understanding how attributes, roles, formations etc interact. It is not that complicated to do and you don't have to be hardcore into the engine room of the ME.

I have been using the BETA testing approach that Rashidi also uses with Top teams to see how the ME plays out with different styles etc. Then you have your baseline and lessons to built on when you start your long term save.

Then I use the Torino DIaries as inspiration and study of how to handle different aspects of your game.... Team morale, Transfers, Attributes, Certain players, etc...

@herne79Especially the last line with over complicating things is VERY TRUE :)

Edited by Jungztar

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4 hours ago, Rashidi said:

While that book was relevant for FM2012, 2013, 2014 and maybe 2015, things began changing under the hood a great deal. We had more roles introduced and some elements of the game changed. Now what Richard wrote was meant to be a simple guide to a complex issue. It's not meant to be a hardcoded rule, even when the in game hints tell me I should be using more attacking duties I just ignore it. Its good to know that you need attacking duties, but the question at the end of the day is how do you control space within different shapes. And that only really happened in FM16.

The easiest way for me to explain this is taking wwfan's explanation and simplifying it further. 

Highly Structured  & Structured systems require you to think about who will create the plays that the space offers. These systems do need some form of playmaking role and duties that can run into and move around the spaces. Alternatively you can consider heavy modification of generic player instructions.

Flexible systems are balanced by nature, you just need to consider how you want to control space, and where you want to do it. Then you choose between the right kind of roles and team instructions. Flexible systems are the most adaptable.

Fluid and Highly fluid systems are characterised by groups of players that work together in transitions. These systems place a high demand on the right kind of attributes to effect the most varied styles of play. Since all the duties can work together seamlessly in transitions, you need to consider carefully which players are given creative roles, and which have support roles. Failure to do this, will cause your sides to lose coherence.

All shapes can be used at any kind of football, the only thing stopping you from using different shapes with the same team are the distribution of attributes within your team.

Structured systems place a high burden on physicals and work-rate, whilst fluid systems place a high burden on teamwork, work-rate, first touch, decisions and concentration.

You will need to wait for the book to find out how you can put all of this together, meanwhile I gotta go and finish the chapter my last two sections. It already is bursting at nearly 200 pages.

I following your Torino Diares your posts about tactic i understand shapes and mentality . Following you I create 4 2 3 1 tactic for home gaming. But what is problem? When playing away against WBA and i know i  will not playing attacking fluid like a home then set up controls ( some carefull tactic ) expect to opponet playing counter etc.. I playing on extende and i see what is on pitch where my opponet is better and etc. Butt still I lose and even if i lose 1-0 a change to push up him and can scoring. Thats problem I have.

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13 minutes ago, 2calvin said:

Thanks for episode 6 on bust the net!

You're welcome, quite sick at the moment, and partially deaf I reckon lol. So I can't record any YT videos for a while till I recover.  At least I have some episodes lined up for Torinos last few games of the season that I can put out

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3 hours ago, Cleon said:

My point being regardless of the shape, mentality you use the roles and duties have to fit. You need enough runners, you need enough support, you need players who can supply the ball to the people you want scoring goals etc. It's all about the balance of the side. In defensive strategies you can afford to have more attacking duties because naturally everything is more cautious than an attacking strategy and the same applies to the reverse too. In attacking formations you can afford to have less attacking duties if you wish.

Was this the right move though? If the opposition are sat back, when you pushed the d-line up did you take space away from your own players and give them less time and space? The chances are you did. It's not always logical to go higher against weaker sides who are sat back because depending on your tactics, role and duties this might detract from the natural movement you create. When you push up against these type of sides you make things more congested and crowded. Sometimes taking the opposite approach and having runners from deeper areas and players playing in free space in front of the opposition can open and create plenty of space.

All good and well but did you have players getting into the box to get onto the end of crosses? Highly unlikely if the opposition are deep and you're struggling to break them down.

When you made all the changes you mention above how did this change your playstyle from its default? We don't know how you've been playing but its an important question because you need to understand how changes you make impact what was going on. When you changed the fullback to more attacking, how was this more beneficial? What was he doing what he wasn't doing before? How was he now linking up with the rest of the players? What was his purpose.

The same with the crosses above, how did this alter play? What players were making runs into the box to get onto the end of the crosses? And realistically were the players doing it consistently and was it beneficial?

The three players you instructed to close down more how did this alter your approach, what did they give you that they weren't before? Did it work? 

I don't mean to be harsh but you are constantly asking for how you can improve or what you could have done different. However I think the issue lies with the above and you don't understand two important things. The first being how the shape you've created works both positives and negatives. Secondly I don't think you know the impact of what the changes you make has on the setting you use and deviate away from the normal style. Until you figure these fundamental basics out no matter what you do, you'll always be searching for the same answers. How long have you been trying to get the 4231 to work now, 2 years? I'm not saying this to be harsh or critical as I've tried to help you on numerous occasions. I'm saying it as I want you to be able to create the stuff you want to create. But you're stuck in the cycle of trying absolutely everything at the minute without understanding the basics and its rinse and repeat continuously. I feel from your posts you simply over complicate the game for yourself and a more simplistic approach would be so much more beneficial for you. Ignore what you've read or what other people do and just go back are relearn the basics of what you are creating. Understand fully why it works or doesn't, that's all you need to do.

If needs be start a new thread highlighting your approach, what you changed and why. Document everything and I guarantee at some point during the thread you'll understand your system, it's faults and flaws along with the good stuff. Then and only then would I get hung up on the finer details or the more complex approaches and strategies. But even then, if something is working how you expect then why explore anything else?

Arsene Wenger is a real life version of this. He had a system that worked greatly and then rather than sticking to it, he started to adapt to the more European approach and chasing tactical trends. Somewhere along the line he lost the Arsenal way imo. Yes they still produced players and gave youth a chance etc but that's not the same. I feel somewhere he lost the tactical identity that served him so well. A lot of FM'ers do the same, they start exploring other trends and concepts that are more intricate and complicate the game for themselves without ever needing to. Don't fall into this trap, start again with the basics instead :)

Aldo don't base how you play on how someone else plays especially someone like myself or @Rashidi. We don't think like the average FM'er and have a vast knowledge of how the game works but out of the box and how things work under the hood. It becomes like instinct after working on the game and the CM/FM series for the past 2 decades. Comparing how we play to the average user only creates confusion and frustration. Instead try and use the ideas we speak about and adapt them to suit your own needs and the way you play. But at the end of it all, it comes down to trial and error to get a better understanding of what works and why. No amount of videos or articles can make up for that.

Thanks Cleon I am going to start again from the beginning. I need to sit down and understand how I want to play and how roles and duties can influence the way I want to play. 

Maybe taking it back to simple approach is the best thing for me now. You are right I do not fully understand how the team shape works. I thought I did by watching the Torino diaries. From reading your comments it made understand that I do not really understand what is going on. The only thing I understand a little is mentality at least I know that Control is high risk football and defenndive as a low tolerance risk and Standard just sits in the middle. 

I need to wait on Rashidi book because I am hoping that it will help me to understand things like how to use Team Instructions and selecting player roles. 

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10 hours ago, gordo179 said:

Haha, thanks @LPQR. I'm certainly not expecting to understand the game after reading about it for 10 minutes. I've been playing this game since FM 07 or 08 but lazily i.e. picking an already strong team and just playing safe, possession football and getting away with it all these years because I've picked strong teams with technically and attributively strong players. On top of that, I read a lot of other players tactics and just plug n play/mimic their tactics without thinking too much for myself. 

Maybe I sounded a bit harsh, I don't doubt your commitment, it was just for the purpose of highlighting the two extremes of trying to think of a simple pattern in a web of concepts and correlations :) hope my message comes across in that way

 

6 hours ago, Cleon said:

Aldo don't base how you play on how someone else plays especially someone like myself or @Rashidi. We don't think like the average FM'er and have a vast knowledge of how the game works but out of the box and how things work under the hood. It becomes like instinct after working on the game and the CM/FM series for the past 2 decades. Comparing how we play to the average user only creates confusion and frustration. Instead try and use the ideas we speak about and adapt them to suit your own needs and the way you play. But at the end of it all, it comes down to trial and error to get a better understanding of what works and why. No amount of videos or articles can make up for that.

@gordo179 that's what I meant ;)

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11 hours ago, Cleon said:

In defensive strategies you can afford to have more attacking duties because naturally everything is more cautious than an attacking strategy and the same applies to the reverse too. In attacking formations you can afford to have less attacking duties if you wish.

This might work, but contradicts to the core idea of 'defending' strategy that is to hold many players behind and recycle the ball cautiously. You may be well versed in how the game works, and , by micromanaging every detail, have succeeded in using attack duties in defend strategies, but offering this type of advice is pretty confusing. Or, it should come with a disclaimer 'do not consider unless very experienced'

A defend strategy with several defend duties or an attacking one with several attack ones is more likely to work 'as is'

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19 hours ago, gordo179 said:

- an IF(A) on a team with Very Fluid on control or even balanced team mentality 

VS 

- an IF(S) on a team with Very Fluid on Attacking team mentality? 

Do they end up playing the same way because the personal mentalities and team mentalities cancel each other out? 

 

18 hours ago, LPQR said:

according to my understanding, the players on support will still look to.. 'support', however the mentality will affect the amount of risk they're willing to take. If you look at the FM description of duties for each role, you will notice there is a change in the general way a player plays, i.e. movement, shooting, passing depending on defend/support/attack duties. The mentality usually relates to a) instruction to take more/less risks b) the speed at which that is done i.e. with an attacking mentality the player will have less time to analyse the situation and make a decision. 

About that (b) point, isn't that decided by the tempo setting?

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8 minutes ago, difran8 said:

 

About that (b) point, isn't that decided by the tempo setting?

it's influenced by both, however in slightly different ways. the attacking mentality 'rushes' the player into a more direct decision. the tempo increases/decreases the speed at which that is made.

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14 hours ago, Rashidi said:

You will need to wait for the book to find out how you can put all of this together, meanwhile I gotta go and finish the chapter my last two sections. It already is bursting at nearly 200 pages.

200 pages? mental :) although, I'm not too surprised. I'd love to read it once it's out 

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44 minutes ago, difran8 said:

This might work, but contradicts to the core idea of 'defending' strategy that is to hold many players behind and recycle the ball cautiously. You may be well versed in how the game works, and , by micromanaging every detail, have succeeded in using attack duties in defend strategies, but offering this type of advice is pretty confusing. Or, it should come with a disclaimer 'do not consider unless very experienced'

A defend strategy with several defend duties or an attacking one with several attack ones is more likely to work 'as is'

You assume all defensive strategies are the same when they're not. There are many types of defensive strategies. You don't need to micromanage every aspect either. You don't need to be very experienced at all either it just depends on the type of defensive strategy you are using. Also using a defensive mentality (which is what I was on about) doesn't mean keeping players back behind the ball and recycling the ball cautiously. It CAN mean that but doesn't have to. There is no hard fast rule. 

Your idea of what a defensive strategy is isn't a hard fast rule it's just one type or one definition of what a defensive strategy could mean for YOU. That doesn't mean it can't be used for something else and to mean something else for the next person.

Mourinho's defensive strategy is completely different to Simeone's for example. Both completely different styles of defensive football. One likes to keep 8 or more behind the ball while one of them plays a more attacking version and is more forward thinking. 

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40 minutes ago, Cleon said:

You assume all defensive strategies are the same when they're not. There are many types of defensive strategies. You don't need to micromanage every aspect either. You don't need to be very experienced at all either it just depends on the type of defensive strategy you are using. Also using a defensive mentality (which is what I was on about) doesn't mean keeping players back behind the ball and recycling the ball cautiously. It CAN mean that but doesn't have to. There is no hard fast rule. 

Your idea of what a defensive strategy is isn't a hard fast rule it's just one type or one definition of what a defensive strategy could mean for YOU. That doesn't mean it can't be used for something else and to mean something else for the next person.

Mourinho's defensive strategy is completely different to Simeone's for example. Both completely different styles of defensive football. One likes to keep 8 or more behind the ball while one of them plays a more attacking version and is more forward thinking. 

I really hope this thread continues because it has been very helpful. I agree with Cleon there are many types of defensive strategies. For example when I play with Arsenal I sometimes use a defensive mentality + fluid team shape to get more players involved in the transitions I will sometimes push up the D Line to higher also so that I am not inviting too much pressure from the opposition. Defensive Mentality drops the d Line anyway so by pushing it up I am not pinned back in my half and allowing the oppostion to come on to me too much. 

So what I am trying to achieve is playing with low risk tolerant mentality but I still want a bit of attacking bite a bit like Simone.

I will also change some of my roles to encourage players to get forward. I still think I need some help with the correction slelection of roles and duties. But right now it is a trial and error. I have not started a full season yet still using the Beta to try and understand the game when I feel that I have a handle on selecting the correct roles and duties I will venture into the the full game. 

Cleon if you can help with any advice on role and duty selection I would appreciate it. 

Edited by James9

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On 03/12/2016 at 05:51, James9 said:

I really hope this thread continues because it has been very helpful. I agree with Cleon there are many types of defensive strategies. For example when I play with Arsenal I sometimes use a defensive mentality + fluid team shape to get more players involved in the transitions I will sometimes push up the D Line to higher also so that I am not inviting too much pressure from the opposition. Defensive Mentality drops the d Line anyway so by pushing it up I am not pinned back in my half and allowing the oppostion to come on to me too much. 

So what I am trying to achieve is playing with low risk tolerant mentality but I still want a bit of attacking bite a bit like Simone.

I will also change some of my roles to encourage players to get forward. I still think I need some help with the correction slelection of roles and duties. But right now it is a trial and error. I have not started a full season yet still using the Beta to try and understand the game when I feel that I have a handle on selecting the correct roles and duties I will venture into the the full game. 

Cleon if you can help with any advice on role and duty selection I would appreciate it. 

You are almost there neither one of us will tell u what roles to use cos that's dependant on ur players and what you want to achieve.

Try the combinations out yourself. If it's the beta you have nothing to lose right?

 

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11 hours ago, BojanVu said:

I am a lots of things about mentality shape etc learned from Rashidi post and video.. He is a masterminde :D 

Thank you, but no I am not, I just happen to have played this game for nearly 30 years7

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14 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Thank you, but no I am not, I just happen to have played this game for nearly 30 years7

I've played every year, every edition since CM'93 Italia.....when Ryan Giggs was one of the best young prospects you can buy. 23 years have gone by.....like 23 minutes :D

 

Edit: 

Oh, man....those were the days. Look at that UI! Nostalgia.....

Edited by yonko

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Hello again Rashidi,

I come to you today to seek some advice for a different ideea of a tactic.

Long story short, I ran into an article on the internet wich talked about Juventus defender Leonardo Bonucci and Manchester City John Stones, about the similar roles that this two players play and about how Allegri and Guardiola, encouraged by the changes made to the offside rule, are trying to bring back the old Libero role into modern football.

Of course, after I finished reading I immediatly sayed to myself that I need to try this in FM. So I took your advice when creating a new tactic, picked a strong side and started playing.

This is the way I set up the tactic and the results I got. After a decent pre-season disaster struck, and it was downhill from there.

image.jpg

image.jpg

image.jpg

 

So now I am here looking for help. I don't really stress too much about it as it is just an experiment of mine, but I am curios if the Libero can work in FM and how would you set-up a tactic with this role. 

I've attached the tactic just for funzzies. :)

 

Libero Test_40BDE7D1-BB6A-4AAE-90D4-FBF582451401.fmf

Edited by Sharky85

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Ok, so when you get to the point where your second season Chelsea team (Courtois, M.Fernandes, Luiz, Zouma, A.Sandro, Verratti, Benassi, Kante, Hazard, Luan & Dybala in a 4-3-2-1) lose 5-1 to Arsenal and you even have a dream about finding Rashidi to seek out his wisdom, it’s probably time to stop re-reading this thread and dive in with a few questions! :lol:

1)      I interpret structured as ‘defenders defend’ and ‘attackers attack’ more than they would in a fluid system. Whilst I assume that I know what that means for a CB or a CF, what does that mean for the more ‘in between’ roles, like full back, wing back or CM(s)? What does an attacking or supporting wingback do in a structured system, that he does not do in a fluid one?

2)      The way I understand it, the more attacking the mentality, the wider the formation sets up. Is there no way, therefore, to go defensive but wide on defence in order to deny opposition wingers their space (without man marking them with full backs)?

3)      Are seemingly ‘contradictory’ instructions necessarily a bad thing? For instance, I had no DMC but didn’t want to give the opposition AMC too much room, so I went fluid + be more disciplined in order to benefit from the vertical compression of space, but without giving the team too much creative freedom. Another time I created a counter tactic but increased everything from tempo to creative freedom, roaming and defensive line in an attempt to have an ‘attacking’ team that just had a narrower defensive shape.

4)      I understand that to compress the space you might go fluid or to create more vertical space you might go structured. I normally err on the side of ‘pack them close together’ in order to benefit a short passing game and to attempt to close down the opponent quicker. Clearly, though this doesn’t always work for me! It would be have some examples of why and when you might want to abandon fluid compactness and try structured spaceyness – beyond simply when you might want to go direct. Essentially, I don’t know when to do anything other than keep my players quite close together and rarely dare go any less fluid than flexible.

 

Thanks to anyone who chips in with some assistance. Rashidi, if you hear my plea, a dose of your wisdom would be most appreciated indeed!

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On 10/12/2016 at 18:54, Sharky85 said:

Hello again Rashidi,

I come to you today to seek some advice for a different ideea of a tactic.

Long story short, I ran into an article on the internet wich talked about Juventus defender Leonardo Bonucci and Manchester City John Stones, about the similar roles that this two players play and about how Allegri and Guardiola, encouraged by the changes made to the offside rule, are trying to bring back the old Libero role into modern football.

Of course, after I finished reading I immediatly sayed to myself that I need to try this in FM. So I took your advice when creating a new tactic, picked a strong side and started playing.

This is the way I set up the tactic and the results I got. After a decent pre-season disaster struck, and it was downhill from there.

image.jpg

image.jpg

image.jpg

 

So now I am here looking for help. I don't really stress too much about it as it is just an experiment of mine, but I am curios if the Libero can work in FM and how would you set-up a tactic with this role. 

I've attached the tactic just for funzzies. :)

 

Libero Test_40BDE7D1-BB6A-4AAE-90D4-FBF582451401.fmf

Hey Sharky sorry for the late response, have you seen my Chelsea replication? if I wanted to play a Libero, I would just change my 3 man defence and stick a L in the middle on attack and turn the right sided defender into the same one as the left. Since I have such an aggressive defence in midfield, this libero would help me congest the midfield

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2 hours ago, Vlowman said:

Ok, so when you get to the point where your second season Chelsea team (Courtois, M.Fernandes, Luiz, Zouma, A.Sandro, Verratti, Benassi, Kante, Hazard, Luan & Dybala in a 4-3-2-1) lose 5-1 to Arsenal and you even have a dream about finding Rashidi to seek out his wisdom, it’s probably time to stop re-reading this thread and dive in with a few questions! :lol:

Thanks but I am sure there are quite a few people on the forums who can help now

 

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1)      I interpret structured as ‘defenders defend’ and ‘attackers attack’ more than they would in a fluid system. Whilst I assume that I know what that means for a CB or a CF, what does that mean for the more ‘in between’ roles, like full back, wing back or CM(s)? What does an attacking or supporting wingback do in a structured system, that he does not do in a fluid one?

Duties are divided into 3 categories. Shape distributes the mentality across a team. And duties tell players how to get involved in transitions. Players who are on attack, attack first, defend later, support will depend on mentality of the team and defend will defend. The roles themselves affect what they do as a job. The attacking fullback attacks as much as the wingback but if you look at the grid he will drop slightly deeper when he transitions into defence. An attacking wingback is also likely to move a bit more forward on attacking transitions. If I had a secure middle but I wanted my AMC to have support quickly from the flanks during an attacking transition I would pick an attacking fullbacks over say a support fullback. The other thing you want to look at are their PIs. They may indicate how differently they perform the roles.

Quote

 

2)      The way I understand it, the more attacking the mentality, the wider the formation sets up. Is there no way, therefore, to go defensive but wide on defence in order to deny opposition wingers their space (without man marking them with full backs)?

You could go wide on width, but that really only kicks in on attack. When you go defensive, your team still protects the width of the pitch. It's the roles and duties here that dictate what they do. Their attributes will affect how well they do the job. The flanks will always be protected, even on narrow systems. They just start out from inside the pitch and go out. If you go defensive, yes you may go narrow, but ultimately its your tactic that sells that narrowness. I have played with a 4312 which is narrow, but I can protect the flanks just fine. The occasional ball gets through and when it does I look squarely at my wingback for not doing the job well enough.

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3)      Are seemingly ‘contradictory’ instructions necessarily a bad thing? For instance, I had no DMC but didn’t want to give the opposition AMC too much room, so I went fluid + be more disciplined in order to benefit from the vertical compression of space, but without giving the team too much creative freedom. Another time I created a counter tactic but increased everything from tempo to creative freedom, roaming and defensive line in an attempt to have an ‘attacking’ team that just had a narrower defensive shape.

Alright contradictory instructions are not = go fluid/be more disciplined if your roles were set up right. Sometimes I do that because I have some creative roles already on the pitch who also roam from position. This shout is a team shout, it does affect PIs but it does not override them. Instead they will work together. 

There are some contradictory instructions that absolutely make no sense. You can use TIs to do loads of things but one must first see how they affect the team. For most people we recommend the less is better, however those who know the game well, those people they can sometimes use more. In their situation, they probably know what they are doing. So unless you know why you do what you are doing, and you can tell which shout does what, I would suggest going slow with TIs.

Your shouts don't suggest a bad thing, if you can spot what you are going for. Most people do silly combos that make no sense to them. They pick them cos it feels right.

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4)      I understand that to compress the space you might go fluid or to create more vertical space you might go structured. I normally err on the side of ‘pack them close together’ in order to benefit a short passing game and to attempt to close down the opponent quicker. Clearly, though this doesn’t always work for me! It would be have some examples of why and when you might want to abandon fluid compactness and try structured spaceyness – beyond simply when you might want to go direct. Essentially, I don’t know when to do anything other than keep my players quite close together and rarely dare go any less fluid than flexible.

I am a shape player in the game. I treat Shape like a visit to the candy store. The one biggest weakness in the AI is that to date it can't match that ability. It can, but not nearly as comprehensive as someone who understands its impact. There are going to be times though when things go wrong, and its time like this when we need to understand one basic thing. Structured leads to space and fluidity leads to compactness. One requires players who can exploit the space and the other requires players who can make the space. As long as you understand why, you can always adapt your system on the fly. I have added roam from instructions or picked roles that I needed to work the space. Other times I have elected to stretch the play out when playing fluid so I can drag the defence around. Once you know what Shape does its easier.

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Thanks to anyone who chips in with some assistance. Rashidi, if you hear my plea, a dose of your wisdom would be most appreciated indeed!

 

Have a good one. And yeah, this thread will be superseded by my book which comes out soon. So once that book comes out, I won't need to explain the stuff again. All I need to do is to answer these kind of questions :-) And you will need to follow me on Twitter for the book launch on the 24th  @bustthenet

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Hello everyone,

 

First, I would like to apologize for my poor English, I'm french.

 

Currently, I'm playing with Olympique de Marseille, because I'm a fan of this club. I would like to play like Marcelo Bielsa or El Toque of Colombia with Valderrama. I want a tactic like this:

 

----------------------------GL----------------------------

----------------CD-------CD---------CD--------------

-WB-att------------------------------------WB-att-

----------------------------------------------------------

--------------APM-att--BWM-def-----------------

-IF-sup--------------------------------------IF-sup-

------------------------CF-sup-----------------------

 

What do you think about that ? It's possible to have some success with that tactic ?

Because, I try this during the preseason, and I have very good results. Even if I player lower teams, I have one home game against Sevilla where I won 3-0.

But, after 3 games in Ligue 1, I have just 4 points and after it's more difficult. So, after 12-13 games, I'm beetwen the 12-14th row.

So, I have choose a basic 4-3-3 like RuDI Garcia IRL, it's better and now I'm 6th after 26 games. But I really want to play something like my starting tactic with my philosophy (like Bielsa/Toque): have the possession (60% at least), short pass (in one touch if it's possible).

 

So, I can change all if I need, I want a terrific tactic and I need your advices.

 

PS: I'm so sorry, I don't have screen here, I'm at work, and the screen is in french and I think it's not easy for you to read the french.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Thanks but I am sure there are quite a few people on the forums who can help now

 

Duties are divided into 3 categories. Shape distributes the mentality across a team. And duties tell players how to get involved in transitions. Players who are on attack, attack first, defend later, support will depend on mentality of the team and defend will defend. The roles themselves affect what they do as a job. The attacking fullback attacks as much as the wingback but if you look at the grid he will drop slightly deeper when he transitions into defence. An attacking wingback is also likely to move a bit more forward on attacking transitions. If I had a secure middle but I wanted my AMC to have support quickly from the flanks during an attacking transition I would pick an attacking fullbacks over say a support fullback. The other thing you want to look at are their PIs. They may indicate how differently they perform the roles.

You could go wide on width, but that really only kicks in on attack. When you go defensive, your team still protects the width of the pitch. It's the roles and duties here that dictate what they do. Their attributes will affect how well they do the job. The flanks will always be protected, even on narrow systems. They just start out from inside the pitch and go out. If you go defensive, yes you may go narrow, but ultimately its your tactic that sells that narrowness. I have played with a 4312 which is narrow, but I can protect the flanks just fine. The occasional ball gets through and when it does I look squarely at my wingback for not doing the job well enough.

Alright contradictory instructions are not = go fluid/be more disciplined if your roles were set up right. Sometimes I do that because I have some creative roles already on the pitch who also roam from position. This shout is a team shout, it does affect PIs but it does not override them. Instead they will work together. 

There are some contradictory instructions that absolutely make no sense. You can use TIs to do loads of things but one must first see how they affect the team. For most people we recommend the less is better, however those who know the game well, those people they can sometimes use more. In their situation, they probably know what they are doing. So unless you know why you do what you are doing, and you can tell which shout does what, I would suggest going slow with TIs.

Your shouts don't suggest a bad thing, if you can spot what you are going for. Most people do silly combos that make no sense to them. They pick them cos it feels right.

I am a shape player in the game. I treat Shape like a visit to the candy store. The one biggest weakness in the AI is that to date it can't match that ability. It can, but not nearly as comprehensive as someone who understands its impact. There are going to be times though when things go wrong, and its time like this when we need to understand one basic thing. Structured leads to space and fluidity leads to compactness. One requires players who can exploit the space and the other requires players who can make the space. As long as you understand why, you can always adapt your system on the fly. I have added roam from instructions or picked roles that I needed to work the space. Other times I have elected to stretch the play out when playing fluid so I can drag the defence around. Once you know what Shape does its easier.

Have a good one. And yeah, this thread will be superseded by my book which comes out soon. So once that book comes out, I won't need to explain the stuff again. All I need to do is to answer these kind of questions :-) And you will need to follow me on Twitter for the book launch on the 24th  @bustthenet

Rashidi will your book have information on how to play with a 4231 wide this is a formation that has troubled me over the years. When I hear you say that you do not like the 4231 wide or narrow it makes me think that this formation is not the best to use because you need really good players to pull it off. I play as Arsenal and have good players but I can't get this formation to work. Looking forward to the book mate and hopefully the 4231 will get a feature. 

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20 hours ago, James9 said:

 4231 wide ...I play as Arsenal and have good players but I can't get this formation to work. 

What  role you assigned to Ozil ?

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20 hours ago, James9 said:

Rashidi will your book have information on how to play with a 4231 wide this is a formation that has troubled me over the years. When I hear you say that you do not like the 4231 wide or narrow it makes me think that this formation is not the best to use because you need really good players to pull it off. I play as Arsenal and have good players but I can't get this formation to work. Looking forward to the book mate and hopefully the 4231 will get a feature. 

James,

How do you want to play with this 4231 Wide formation? What is your vision? Do you want to build it around Ozil and Sanchez? Do you see Alexis as a Striker or as Inside Forward on the left? How are you going to balance the rest of the team within this formation, especially the abundance of creative, good-passing players? What playing style do you prefer to play - counter-attacking, possession controlled or direct attacking?

Reading about your struggles in all the threads here have made me interested in an Arsenal save. So I have abandoned my save with Liverpool at the moment and have started a save with the Gunners with the sole purpose of using a 4231 Wide formation. My hope is to show you how it can be successful, although others may already have. Now, I'm not that big of an expert as Rashidi or Cleon or others here, and this isn't my favorite/preferred formation (I've had my struggles with it in the past too), but I've decided to do this so I can see for myself what is it that is so hard with Arsenal and the 4231. Plus I want to test myself and see if I've learned from guys like Rashidi and Cleon.

I don't want to get your hopes up too much, as I don't know how this save is going to unfold, especially over this Holiday period. But I promise I will try and report hopefully some interesting stuff. As I said, I also view it as learning/testing experience for myself too. I'll start a new thread as soon as I have something, so keep an eye out for that.

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21 hours ago, James9 said:

I play as Arsenal and have good players but I can't get this formation to work

Arsene is trying the last 10 years or so (after his invincible team)...

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3 hours ago, yonko said:

James,

How do you want to play with this 4231 Wide formation? What is your vision? Do you want to build it around Ozil and Sanchez? Do you see Alexis as a Striker or as Inside Forward on the left? How are you going to balance the rest of the team within this formation, especially the abundance of creative, good-passing players? What playing style do you prefer to play - counter-attacking, possession controlled or direct attacking?

Reading about your struggles in all the threads here have made me interested in an Arsenal save. So I have abandoned my save with Liverpool at the moment and have started a save with the Gunners with the sole purpose of using a 4231 Wide formation. My hope is to show you how it can be successful, although others may already have. Now, I'm not that big of an expert as Rashidi or Cleon or others here, and this isn't my favorite/preferred formation (I've had my struggles with it in the past too), but I've decided to do this so I can see for myself what is it that is so hard with Arsenal and the 4231. Plus I want to test myself and see if I've learned from guys like Rashidi and Cleon.

I don't want to get your hopes up too much, as I don't know how this save is going to unfold, especially over this Holiday period. But I promise I will try and report hopefully some interesting stuff. As I said, I also view it as learning/testing experience for myself too. I'll start a new thread as soon as I have something, so keep an eye out for that.

Thanks Yonko. After watching Rashidi videos I have a better understanding of mentality and shape. I would start most games on either Control/Standard and my preferred shape would be structured. I have decided that Very Fluid is not really for me because of what comes with the shape. I am will also go for a High Block so all of my front four players.will be told to close down more. If they have good attributes in tackling they will be told to tackle harder. My central midfielders will be told to keep it simple basically I want these guys to screen the back four and recycle possession so that the likes of Ozil and Sanchez can do damage. The midfielders will not be given any roles that allows them to roam. 

My team instructions are simple 

Normal d line

Play out of defence

whipped crosses

shorter passing

I might push the d line up if I facing a stubborn team and want to camp out in their half. I might even go attacking and Fluid but I only switch to these settings I need to chase a goal. 

Sanchez will be my striker and Ozil will be AP support flanked by Inside Forward Attack and Winger Attack. Sanchez Complete Forward Attack

 

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1 hour ago, James9 said:

Thanks Yonko. After watching Rashidi videos I have a better understanding of mentality and shape. I would start most games on either Control/Standard and my preferred shape would be structured. I have decided that Very Fluid is not really for me because of what comes with the shape. I am will also go for a High Block so all of my front four players.will be told to close down more. If they have good attributes in tackling they will be told to tackle harder. My central midfielders will be told to keep it simple basically I want these guys to screen the back four and recycle possession so that the likes of Ozil and Sanchez can do damage. The midfielders will not be given any roles that allows them to roam. 

My team instructions are simple 

Normal d line

Play out of defence

whipped crosses

shorter passing

I might push the d line up if I facing a stubborn team and want to camp out in their half. I might even go attacking and Fluid but I only switch to these settings I need to chase a goal. 

Sanchez will be my striker and Ozil will be AP support flanked by Inside Forward Attack and Winger Attack. Sanchez Complete Forward Attack

 

Why is Very Fluid shape not for you? What do you think it comes with to make it not suitable for the way you want to play?

You say you want High Block. You want the CMs to screen and recycle possession. You can do that with Fluid/Very Fluid shapes too.

Structured basically splits your team in 4 groups - 1.defenders - 2.fullbacks and most defensive midfielder(s) - 3.attacking/supporting midfielders - 4. striker. Then consider the roles and duties. You have 3 attacking duties in your front 4 with Ozil as the AP-S behind them. That will increase the divide in your team even more. You haven't mentioned the roles and duties of the 2 CMs but considering you want them screening, one is on defend duty for sure, the other one a deep playmaker or CM-S with Hold Position would be my guess. Even more divide in your team. You might find it hard for Ozil to connect or for his teammates to find him (AP-S is one of the least mobile playmaking roles). He would be too deep to score or provide direct assist. And you have short passing for instruction. Lastly, ask yourself how much would the players in attacking duties help in defense. Sure they will pressure, but once the ball is played behind, will they get back to help? My guess is not much. I would never have 3 of the front 4 players on Attack duty regardless of Shape.

I may be wrong but that is the way I see it.

There are two very important advices/suggestions from Cleon and Rashidi about this formation that I have learned:

1) It's a top heavy formation and thus it needs fluidity and movement up front.

2) the 2 CMs need to keep their shape and be held back, which means roles like CM-D, DLP-D/S and CM-S with Hold Position

Keep in mind that when I say movement I don't just mean attacking movement getting behind the defense. I mean movement to get open and explore space too. That means coming deep, towards the ball, inside between the lines, etc. 

Try to think how mentality, shape, formation, roles, duties and instructions will all link together to play out on the field. Keep in mind, you don't need Ozil to be the playmaker to be heavily involved, key figure, contribute with goals and assists, etc. You want him on a role that in and around the penalty box. Arsenal have plenty of other midfielders capable of distributing the ball around.

When I start posting about my approach, I will show you something very different than normal in the first game of the season away against rival Tottenham. I did it only for this game so far and it was different than my overall vision about players' roles. It involves Arsenal's creative and technically gifted players. In fact, I can also tell you that the interesting thing so far is that I've played 2 leagues games (2nd one was home against Stoke) and in both I've used different starting XI with different combination of roles for the front 6. And in both games all goals were score by Sanchez and Ozil.:) I have a feeling that a flexible approach and thinking about roles might become the theme of my save.

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