Youth Players and their values

[Mojby]

Hi Guys,

I have posted this in the bugs forum but thought I would get more response from this forum.

I play as Liverpool and spend considerable time on my youth team and scouting for 15 to 17 year olds to buy and train up. I am in my third season and my game has a severe lack of what i would consider as medium to high value youth players. So I have looked at all the Under 18 squads in the Premier League and only 1 team has an under 18 valued at over 1m.. and that is me. I have three of them (two bought in and 1 home grown). When I start looking at all the teams in my league, only two other teams have a player valued at more than 500k - Man City and Everton.

I then had a look at the following teams and their values were relatively low except PSG:

Bayern - £1.3m

Ayax - £1m

Juventus - £450k

Barcelona - £230k

PSG - £3.2m

In previous versions, there is a wealth of players under 18 and worth more than £1m. 70% of them in my experience from Argentina and Brazil. I have Germany, Spain and Italy selected as additional leagues and 4 leagues from each.

Now, when I try and buy a gk from Middlesborough who's value is 90K, they want 26m for him. I can actually understand this due to the lack of even average youth players in England.

This has got to be a bug and would make a long term save turn into a very short one as there will not be any decent youngsters coming through.

Has anyone else noticed this?

[Phero]

Yup, and I made a long thread whining about it and they said deal with it. It's screwed though, even if they deny it.

[cleaner475]

Player values really aren't important in youth players and never have been, they definitely don't represent a players overall potential ability. I've picked up 190+ PA players in past FM's that were valued around £60k. Player values are an estimate at best, and they are certainly not meant to be used as the only criteria on which to judge a players talent.

[Mojby]

I suppose I should have added that I am basing my post on my experience in previous versions of the game where there was plenty of them valued over £1m. FM2015 seems to have precious few of them.

[Some Guy!]

Player values are based on various things, including player reputations. The values are not a reflection of how good the player actually is, nor is a lack of such values an indication that there are "no good young players". Having recently tested the database, if anything the amount of talent in the game world actually increases from the starting database (it starts with the young players in the database improving increasing the outright number of high CA players, and the regens replace them and keep in fairly constant).

What you're seeing with the players whoever is clubs telling you that the players aren't for sale. The amount they'll ask for is based on what they think of the player. That is, a top end young talent is likely to look really good to their coaches, and so they'll slap a ridiculous price tag on them. This however isn't always reflective of their ability, and if you come across a player they ask £40 million for, and you end up signing them "because they must be good", you may well end up being burned.

Essentially though, whilst the "market value" (based on outright worldwide reputation, which will be low for a young player) will appear low, their club may feel that they're the next Messi, and is basically trying to warn you off. Everyone has their price though, and if you're willing to risk all that money on a youth player...

[Overmars]

I thought the game intentionally misled human managers by keeping youth player values consistently low to avoid revealing who the best prospects were without first scouting them.

[talhak]

40 m should be enough to sign every player in all over the world except Ronaldo, Messi, Hazard and a few other. I have reported similar issue here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/420350-No-way-to-sign-Donis-Avdijaj-less-than-minimum-release-clause-which-is-41.5M

[Some Guy!]

40 m should be enough to sign every player in all over the world except Ronaldo, Messi, Hazard and a few other. I have reported similar issue here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/420350-No-way-to-sign-Donis-Avdijaj-less-than-minimum-release-clause-which-is-41.5M

No way that any club would be spending £20+ million on a youth player, the club placing that value would be telling others to go away.

[cleaner475]

40 m should be enough to sign every player in all over the world except Ronaldo, Messi, Hazard and a few other. I have reported similar issue here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/420350-No-way-to-sign-Donis-Avdijaj-less-than-minimum-release-clause-which-is-41.5M

No, you're just being ridiculously short sighted.

[talhak]

No, you're just being ridiculously short sighted.

if you have another idea/recommendation; just share it instead of these useless posts.

[Some Guy!]

if you have another idea/recommendation; just share it instead of these useless posts.

He doesn't need an "idea/recommendation", as the game is working as intended. Your assertion that "£40 million should sign Ronaldo, Messi and a few others" is quite blatantly wrong on many levels.

Firstly, in the last few years the following transfer have broken that mark:

Gareth Bale: Spurs to Real - £85 million

Luis Suarez: Liverpool to Barca - £75 million

James Rodriguez: Monaco to Real - £63 million

Angel Di Maria: Real to Man U - £60 million

Edison Cavani: Napoli to PSG - £55 million

Falcao: Atleti to Monaco - £51 million

David Luiz: Chelsea to PSG - £50 million

Mesut Ozil: Real to Arsenal - £43 million

That's just the last few years too. There have been ridiculous transfers all over the footballing world, and you seem to be drastically underestimating how much money gets thrown about in the footballing world.

Again though, when a club tells you they want £40+ million for a young player, what they're really telling you is to suck lemons, but ultimately if you're silly enough to pay that kind of money for an unproven youngster, you by definition felt it was worth the money.

[talhak]

He doesn't need an "idea/recommendation", as the game is working as intended. Your assertion that "£40 million should sign Ronaldo, Messi and a few others" is quite blatantly wrong on many levels.

Firstly, in the last few years the following transfer have broken that mark:

Gareth Bale: Spurs to Real - £85 million

Luis Suarez: Liverpool to Barca - £75 million

James Rodriguez: Monaco to Real - £63 million

Angel Di Maria: Real to Man U - £60 million

Edison Cavani: Napoli to PSG - £55 million

Falcao: Atleti to Monaco - £51 million

David Luiz: Chelsea to PSG - £50 million

Mesut Ozil: Real to Arsenal - £43 million

That's just the last few years too. There have been ridiculous transfers all over the footballing world, and you seem to be drastically underestimating how much money gets thrown about in the footballing world.

Again though, when a club tells you they want £40+ million for a young player, what they're really telling you is to suck lemons, but ultimately if you're silly enough to pay that kind of money for an unproven youngster, you by definition felt it was worth the money.

As I wrote, 40 M should be enough almost every player in the world except Ronaldo, Messi, Hazard and some other stars.

The problem here is not giving 40M for an unproven youngster or assessing it. 10-20M should be enough to sign a youngster who has not proven himself yet. Remember the transfer fee of C. Ronaldo from Sporting to Man. Utd. But in FM15, it is almost impossible to sign some of these 'star candidate' youngster. I would like to ask you that do you think Barca, Chelsea, Real Madrid can not sign Avdijaj or other wonderkids a lot less than 40M? Do their services cost 40M IRL?

[BH Shawn]

As I wrote, 40 M should be enough almost every player in the world except Ronaldo, Messi, Hazard and some other stars.

The problem here is not giving 40M for an unproven youngster or assessing it. 10-20M should be enough to sign a youngster who has not proven himself yet. Remember the transfer fee of C. Ronaldo from Sporting to Man. Utd. But in FM15, it is almost impossible to sign some of these 'star candidate' youngster. I wanted to ask you; IRL do you think Barca, Chelsea, Real Madrid cannot sign Avdijaj? Does his services cost 40M IRL?

Try looking at it from the other side, If you have a youngster with great potential, why would you sell him for 10-20 Million? When in a few years he could play well for your club, and you can sell him for well over 20 Million? In the case of Advidjaj, in the thread you linked, his Minimum fee release clause is 41.5 Million. The reason why you'll see many players with Minimum release fee's of 60+ Million, is because the club doesn't want to sell you the player until you meet their obscene value. It's just another way of them saying: "We aren't going to sell"

[Namor]

As I wrote, 40 M should be enough almost every player in the world except Ronaldo, Messi, Hazard and some other stars.

The problem here is not giving 40M for an unproven youngster or assessing it. 10-20M should be enough to sign a youngster who has not proven himself yet. Remember the transfer fee of C. Ronaldo from Sporting to Man. Utd. But in FM15, it is almost impossible to sign some of these 'star candidate' youngster. I wanted to ask you; IRL do you think Barca, Chelsea, Real Madrid cannot sign Avdijaj? Does his services cost 40M IRL?

Yes, his services would cost that much. Schalke would say no otherwise.. you just don't hear about it. That's the thing.. you go by all the transfers that have happened, willfully ignoring any potential transfer that did not happen because they club said no to 10-20 million. Just because nobody leaked the request, doesn't mean no club ever asked. Big league managers literally get hundreds of requests during the transfer periods, and most requests regarding a guy like Avdijaj, even coming from a team like Barca, Real or Chelsea, is answered with.. not for sale. The game gives you a number.. doesn't mean you should take the answer for anything else than a heck no.

[Some Guy!]

As I wrote, 40 M should be enough almost every player in the world except Ronaldo, Messi, Hazard and some other stars.

The problem here is not giving 40M for an unproven youngster or assessing it. 10-20M should be enough to sign a youngster who has not proven himself yet. Remember the transfer fee of C. Ronaldo from Sporting to Man. Utd. But in FM15, it is almost impossible to sign some of these 'star candidate' youngster. I wanted to ask you; IRL do you think Barca, Chelsea, Real Madrid cannot sign Avdijaj? Does his services cost 40M IRL?

Nice little sneaky adding "stars" there. For context, your three names there doesn't exactly equate to that list at all. If we use it as the bench mark then there'd be an awful lot of players worth £40+ million, at a guess around the 40+ mark even. That's not exactly "a few others", that's enough to fill out a few full squads.

Why should £10-20 million be enough for a youngster who's not proven himself. If you had that youngster, would you let him go for "£10-20 million". Clubs can ask what they want.

Ronaldo went for £12.5 million in 03-04 wasn't it? That was about 27% of the World Transfer Record at the time, so that would be at least £23-24 million today. With the extra money in football now, many would not accept that much either. How often to you hear of top talents moving between clubs at this point? They'll go from a smaller club to a bigger one, but how often have you seen fees involved in players moving between clubs.

As for Avdijaj, the reason you need to pay £41.5 million is that it's what his release clause is. When a club has a release clause set for a player that is close to their valuation for them, they'll simply reject all bids. Essentially, they're telling you to go away, and since there is a clause, they see no need to set a value to discuss with you. If you really want him, that's the price.

[talhak]

Try looking at it from the other side, If you have a youngster with great potential, why would you sell him for 10-20 Million? When in a few years he could play well for your club, and you can sell him for well over 20 Million? In the case of Advidjaj, in the thread you linked, his Minimum fee release clause is 41.5 Million. The reason why you'll see many players with Minimum release fee's of 60+ Million, is because the club doesn't want to sell you the player until you meet their obscene value. It's just another way of them saying: "We aren't going to sell"

Of course I understand where you are coming from; but this rule does not work too much IRL. Avdijaj is just an example of this situation; the same is valid for others such as Jonathan Silva, Gaudino, etc. For example Silva is valued as 325K and plays for Sporting; but you need to pay at least 30M to sign him!? Just compare these situations with real life. In my opinion, the rule in real life is that a top club such as Barca, Real Madrid, Chelsea, Manchester easily signs hot prospect youngsters from smaller clubs without paying too much money(no more than 10-20M). All the transfers you wrote above are star signings who have already proven himself and deserve these fees. A recent sample from real life: According to papers, Madrid paid just 4M to capture services of Odegaard - who is labelled as 'the next big thing'. So why did not Stromsgodset demand 30-40M? Hope this makes my idea clear.

[Some Guy!]

Of course I understand where you are coming from; but this rule does not work too much IRL. Avdijaj is just an example of this situation; the same is valid for others such as Jonathan Silva, Gaudino, etc. For example Silva is valued as 325K and plays for Sporting; but you need to pay at least 30M to sign him!? Just compare these situations with real life. In my opinion, the rule in real life is that a top club such as Barca, Real Madrid, Chelsea, Manchester easily signs hot prospect youngsters from smaller clubs without paying too much money. All the transfers you wrote above are star signings who have already proven himself and deserve these fees. Hope this makes my idea clear.

Wait, wait... Jonathan Silva, as in, literally just signed for them Jonathan Silva?

Jonathan Silva is already quite proven in Argentina by the way, not some "yet to prove himself" youngster.

Players values are meaningless beyond media talk in the game, they're a reflection of World reputation, not ability, not how much the club would actually want for them.

In my opinion, the rule in real life is that a top club such as Barca, Real Madrid, Chelsea, Manchester easily signs hot prospect youngsters from smaller clubs without paying too much money.

There's your problem then, you have no concept of the reality of the situation. Manchester United can't even hold onto their own top prospects. In fact, Man United are a great example of overspending on young players from what you'd call "smaller clubs".

Bebe: £7.4 million from Vitoria

Nani: £19 million from Sporting

Anderson: £20 million from Porto

Not small fees, and today they'd be much higher than that too. Not to mention:

Luke Shaw: £30 million from Soton

I bet if this happened in game a year ago, people would be whinging merrily on here. Also, on that topic:

Wayne Rooney: £25.6 million from Everton, 55% of the transfer record at the time (~£47 million today)

Oh, imagine the whinging if you needed to pay £47 million for a youngster in this... oh wait...

Edit: As for Odegaard, you could get him for pretty much nothing in the game. To Stromsgodset, £4 million is a massive amount of money. To a big club who have these talents you're talking about, the amounts will always be much higher as the amount they could earn from keeping these young players is potentially far, far more.

[talhak]

@Some Guy!

If the things in real life go like you think - no one can sign promising youngsters from anywhere. I respect your idea but completely disagree. I believe most wonderkids should not cost more than 20M especially who has not proven himself yet in big competitions. Note that Real Madrid just paid 4M for Odegaard & 15M for Lucas Silva who are more "well-known names" than Avdijaj or Jonathan Silva.

[Some Guy!]

@Some Guy!

If the things in real life go like you think - no one can sign promising youngsters from anywhere. I respect your idea but completely disagree. I believe most wonderkids should not cost more than 20M especially who has not proven himself yet in big competitions. Note that Real Madrid just paid 4M for Odegaard & 15M for Lucas Silva who are more "well-known names" than Avdijaj or Jonathan Silva.

Again, it's about the economics of the club. As mentioned with Odegaard before, in game you could sign him for much less than he actually cost Real Madrid in real life. But the point is that £4 million for him represents a huge amount for Stromsgodset, likely far more than they ever could have gotten from keeping him long term. They've sold him on young (about to turn 16 at the time), and as such got their money and limited the risk.

On the other hand you're talking about players at some of the biggest clubs in their respective countries, clubs that aren't in financial trouble, and even players who have literally just signed for those clubs (i.e. Jonathan Silva).

Lucas Silva is a slightly different circumstance again. A young player, but over 20 now, and I'm not entirely sure of his contract situation.

Here's a question though, can you name a player who's gone between big clubs in no financial trouble, who has a long term contract, is under 19 and is from England, Germany, Spain or Italy. Now try and name one who has gone for what you'd deem your "acceptable fee". You're talking here about players on an entirely different financial level or from South America, which as you'd probably notice in game you can sign quite cheap. I literally just signed Brazil's third choice striker in 2018, a 19 year old with bags of ability already, for about ~£2 million, as well as signing one the same club's key defender the previous year for around £9 million (he was about 19 at the time too). That's not the issue you're complaining about, so why are you going on about them?

So basically, here's the checklist:

- Big Club

- No financial trouble

- Long term contract

- In German, England, Spain or Italy, ideally England or Germany

The transfers that come off the top of my head are the likes of Walcott (rising to £12 million, much higher in todays money), Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain (£15 million, mostly league one appearances, a couple of Championship appearances prior), Raheem Sterling (rising to £5 million, was about 15 at the time, no appearances at all), Andy Carroll (£35 million, one good season at Championship level, half a premier league season), Wayne Rooney (£25.6 million, as mentioned would be closer to £47 million in today's money), Luke Shaw (£30 million), Mario Gotze (£27 million, release clause), etc. These fees for young players are only getting bigger as time goes on.

What's essentially happening here with your bids is you're being told "no", just like so many such bids in the real world. Rather than going "fair enough", you're instead having a sook about it. Sometimes clubs think when they get these "go away" responses, they just go for it and offer them those silly amounts and we get transfers like Carroll to Liverpool. But the majority you just don't hear about, particularly from the bigger clubs. Rather than suffering from target fixation though, most clubs just get on with it and move onto other targets.

[podunkboy]

TBH, once I'm a few years into the game and looking for "home grown" talent for continental play (and this is especially a problem when I'm playing in Scotland), high-end Scottish talent's at a premium and I'll get silly $26 million counters on a player valued at less than $100K. If I'm sitting on a decent transfer budget, I'll give them $18-$20 million and some conditions and take the player. It strengthens Scottish League football by dumping some cash back into the national economy, I fill a squad spot for the next 10-15 years. I've long accepted that player value means nothing in the shopping market.