Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
jujigatame

Why SI has an impossible task (and why FM can be so unfun sometimes)

Recommended Posts

In my last 5 league matches, I've been the favorite. I've "dominated" each match, creating more chances and getting significantly more shots on target. The results? 3 draws and 2 losses, and a mid-season collapse from 2nd to 5th place.

The thing is, I can't really say this is unrealistic. I'm sure we've seen dozens if not hundreds of real-life matches like this. But yet, it's horribly aggravating to watch. The game just isn't fun when it seems like you're doing things right and still not seeing results. And that's what makes FM different from other games. So much of it is down to pure luck. You can play the same match with the same tactics twice and get wildly different results. There is no way to guarantee success. And that's not necessarily unrealistic. But boy can it be unfun sometimes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember Bournmuff slipping from 1st place in league one to 7th by losing 5 games in a row. Then after that we won 8 games in a row which promoted us. So keep going :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've once been sacked because of getting consecutive draws with at least 2-3 woodworks each and with 5 main players injured.

Apparently the board thought that it wasn't good enough and totally within my control.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In my last 5 league matches, I've been the favorite. I've "dominated" each match, creating more chances and getting significantly more shots on target. The results? 3 draws and 2 losses, and a mid-season collapse from 2nd to 5th place.

The thing is, I can't really say this is unrealistic. I'm sure we've seen dozens if not hundreds of real-life matches like this. But yet, it's horribly aggravating to watch. The game just isn't fun when it seems like you're doing things right and still not seeing results. And that's what makes FM different from other games. So much of it is down to pure luck. You can play the same match with the same tactics twice and get wildly different results. There is no way to guarantee success. And that's not necessarily unrealistic. But boy can it be unfun sometimes.

It's games like those where managers really earn their money. A tactical tweak and/or the right sub(s) and it can earn you wins instead of draws or losses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's games like those where managers really earn their money. A tactical tweak and/or the right sub(s) and it can earn you wins instead of draws or losses.

You know OP, without giving you a brief history of my experience with FM about maybe a week and a big I was feeling the same. I was getting overly aggravated to say the least with some of the things I was in seeing in ME, in fact I still do at times but I can only imagine most managers do the same when they watch some of their players do something that they know they should not be doing. However what I have discovered in the last week and a half of creating my own tactic, how to change a loosing situation to a winning one and how to notice weaknesses and address them before they come problems and get a draw or get that 1 goal to win. I managed to win the premiership this season and do it quite convincingly whereas the previous two seasons I was 3rd and 2nd and just was getting very very aggravated and dissapointed with the game.

I don't know what your interests are with tactic creation etc but I have found that FM15 out of all of them requires a lot of fine tuning to the team during games, I am often changing player position roles, changing team instructions and yelling at players for more passion, focus etc. I have had the best results I have ever had and I look forward to every game. I don't mean to assume or sound prudent, but maybe that is something you need to do recreate a joy for the game? Even try making a tactic saving the game and then going through games not with approach of trying to win the season but test your tactic, find the flaws, find out how to balance them etc, then come back to it and move forward with the tactic you are happy with. I didn't do this, I just said to myself I am going to go diamond narrow and that's what I like and that's what I am going to do. I developed my tactic and I am going to write up all I learned to help other people like lots of other people do here as well. But hey in another season or two I may try something else whacky and wonderful to mix it up.

I also set myself some other challenges such as;

Simmed forward 20 years so I knew no player and knew teams will have all changed so I can't go into any game with pre-conceived notions of their players or tactics

No scouting regen dates only go off what my scouts find

Stick with one club unless sacked

and a few other misc things that are just personal things

But yeah I think there a moments where we all get angry at the game, but hey its certainly less than my FIFA rage when a 10 year old kid beats me with bull crap shots...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've had a lot of success in the previous three iterations of Football Manager, and while yes, FM14 in particular at times was difficult, I figured it out and found the game relatively straightforward from then on. But for FM15, I've had one almighty struggle, and I still haven't got on top of it yet despite numerous attempts. I was at my wits end last night after finally snapping a losing streak I'd been going on with Kidderminster (despite playing some great stuff) only to see it go up in flames just one game later with a shockingly bad performance, despite the team morale finally improving. One game and the morale is back down to poor/very poor for my whole squad. But.... I still keep coming back. I think moreso the quest to get on top of this game and achieve success over anything! Football Manager continues to be my favourite series of all time despite the rocky relationship we've had the last few months. :D

I'm glad it's challenging and keeps you on your toes. I've been able to learn so much about tactics, the right/wrong way to approach certain games, how to deal with player egos etc. While what I've learned hasn't necessarily translated into success in my saves on FM15, I at least have a better understanding of the changes I make and what exactly "should" happen by changing something specific. There will always be those times where it's out of your hands with your keeper booting it at your central defender so hard it bounces off him and into the path of an opposition striker, or your defender lunging into a player with two-feet despite telling him to settle down and not get stuck in. There will always be those times where you're screaming at the ME for doing something completely bizarre. But after telling myself I'd have a break for a few days from playing, here I am about to take charge of Kidderminster's next match away to Grimsby. Why do we do it? :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yet we still can't help the fact that we're addicted.

Actually I'd say it's one of the primary reasons we are addicted in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's games like those where managers really earn their money. A tactical tweak and/or the right sub(s) and it can earn you wins instead of draws or losses.

Honestly I don't really believe this. At least not in a super meaningful way. If I lose 1-0, I could replay the game with a tiny tweak and win 3-0. But I could also replay the game with no tweaks and win 3-0. Sometimes your players will miss 5 CCCs by putting the ball directly into the keeper, sometimes they won't. A big part of the game really is a dice roll. All you can do is set the probabilities in your favor as much as possible. Little tweaks might change the odds by a few percent but probably not much more than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Honestly I don't really believe this. At least not in a super meaningful way. If I lose 1-0, I could replay the game with a tiny tweak and win 3-0. But I could also replay the game with no tweaks and win 3-0. Sometimes your players will miss 5 CCCs by putting the ball directly into the keeper, sometimes they won't. A big part of the game really is a dice roll. All you can do is set the probabilities in your favor as much as possible. Little tweaks might change the odds by a few percent but probably not much more than that.

No, you're not getting it. If you have a player missing sitters, sub him! A fired up sub will probably put one away. It's a simple example, but that's the gist of it.

You're right though. It's all about probabilities. All you're doing with your tactics is to increase the probability of winning. If you make necessary changes within a match, you're increasing the odds even more, if you're making the right choices of course!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, I do get it, but like I said (and you seem to agree) it's all about probabilities. Making the right sub or tactical change can give you a few percentage points but in the end, you can still do everything right and lose, or make mistakes and win. It's what makes the game both addicting and aggravating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, but your OP mentioned the last 5 matches all going that way. That's more than just bad luck. You'll get the odd game, but 5 in a row (if you really did dominate) is a bit much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, "dominate" is perhaps too strong but I did create more chances.

Also, sometimes what seems like the right move isn't. Maybe your star striker with 19 finishing blows 2 or 3 chances in the first half, so you sub him. There's no guarantee that the sub with a lower finishing will do better in the 2nd half. It's entirely possible your star striker would suddenly have caught fire in the 2nd half.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A big part of the game really is a dice roll. All you can do is set the probabilities in your favor as much as possible. Little tweaks might change the odds by a few percent but probably not much more than that.

Dice roll? Start of the season we were told, we're in the champs league to make up the numbers. In each and every game, I scout the opposition, apply OI, mark out the right players, tackle the weak, make small adjustments on the fly.. I know its a pain, cos I can't holiday through them all like I used to. Its still possible to win.. In fact, my biggest complaint...is that the Ai is too predictable

Run_zps0psuullt.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Actually I'd say it's one of the primary reasons we are addicted in the first place.

I've told myself I'm going to stop playing this game until the update is released at least 10 times and I still come crawling back. Longest I've gone without playing is probably 2 days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The tweaks during a game are massive. I played a game last night with Real Madrid against Feyenoord. I did my research on the team and boom I was 4-0 up within 15 minutes. They tweaked their formation and tactics and suddenly without warning it was 4-3 and I thought I was going to throw this away. I responded with my own tweaks, change of mentality, a few subs and I ended up winning 6-3.

If you think you can just stick with the same formation and the same tactics game in game out and don't change anything during the 90minutes and win every game your mistaken.

A little tweak somewhere in the game can be the difference between you drawing a game or picking up that vital win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dice roll? Start of the season we were told, we're in the champs league to make up the numbers. In each and every game, I scout the opposition, apply OI, mark out the right players, tackle the weak, make small adjustments on the fly.. I know its a pain, cos I can't holiday through them all like I used to. Its still possible to win.. In fact, my biggest complaint...is that the Ai is too predictable

Run_zps0psuullt.jpg

are you by any chance playing 3 upfront or 1 forward and 2 CAM's or 2 forwards and a CAM? Reason i ask is that i have noticed that my defense (4-4-2) always struggles when i come up against those formations and if i don't change my tactics to use DM they simply can't cope with 3 players that play high up the pitch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Still, having 5 matches in a row like this is more than simply bad luck.

Is it? I didn't change much of significance and now I've climbed back to 3rd place and am 1 match from a Champions League final.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The tweaks during a game are massive. I played a game last night with Real Madrid against Feyenoord. I did my research on the team and boom I was 4-0 up within 15 minutes. They tweaked their formation and tactics and suddenly without warning it was 4-3 and I thought I was going to throw this away. I responded with my own tweaks, change of mentality, a few subs and I ended up winning 6-3.

If you think you can just stick with the same formation and the same tactics game in game out and don't change anything during the 90minutes and win every game your mistaken.

A little tweak somewhere in the game can be the difference between you drawing a game or picking up that vital win.

You have to allow for the possibility that you are being fooled by randomness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Is it? I didn't change much of significance and now I've climbed back to 3rd place and am 1 match from a Champions League final.

I've already explained myself.

What did you change?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
are you by any chance playing 3 upfront or 1 forward and 2 CAM's or 2 forwards and a CAM? Reason i ask is that i have noticed that my defense (4-4-2) always struggles when i come up against those formations and if i don't change my tactics to use DM they simply can't cope with 3 players that play high up the pitch.

2 upfront but we attack with 8 in the opponents half

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've had that problem for a while in a few different saves, in my current save I played the USMNT until the 2018 world cup (and, again, went out in the round of 16) and went to Birmingham... and now I'm getting 8 shots, 7 on target, 5 goals.

I'm actually more irritated at that than the opposite. I guess Carlton Morris is the best striker in the world or something

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And that's what makes FM different from other games.

It depends on what kind of games you're talking about. It's definitely different from most mass market games where the single player experience has been reduced to a glorified tutorial for online play, and where success in many games today are based on the players' willingness to complete repetitive tasks, it is obviously a mistake to see a well-rounded tactic and a good set of players as a guarantee of victory in FM. But this is realistic and it wouldn't be very fun if that weren't the case as it would remove any challenge from the game and essentially turn lower level play into a timesink where you grind until you can afford better players. While it's true that there's a large element of chance in both FM and real football, this also doesn't equate to the game being pure luck. Rather, your job as a manager and the challenge of the game is in weighing the probabilities and trying to tilt them in your favour as much as possible. At times, that means figuring out a way to eke out a win, and other times, management may be a question of damage control (not even just in the sense of salvaging a draw but also the confidence and fitness of your players for the next match).

From a design perspective, I think FM and other sport sims share a lot in common with the roguelike genre. Your players are your "equipment" and your tactics are the basic methods you've developed for using that equipment, but the game itself revolves more around intelligent resource management over a long term as you face day-to-day challenges of varying difficulty. While the season as a whole is the "dungeon" you're looking to survive, each match is basically a new "room" where the game will look to challenge you in some unexpected way. Sometimes, you'll get lucky, and you'll have an easy challenge (striker's on form, no injuries, good ref, confident players). Other times, you'll face a difficult challenge (poor form players, an early injury, an awful ref, nervous players), and the challenge and fun for fans of this niche genre is in adapting to these challenges and knowing how to manage them in the context of the season as a whole.

As in the roguelike genre, it can be unforgiving at times, and there will be occasions where even good decisions are undone by a chance deflection or lapse in concentration. However, learning to manage these bad days is the very core of football management, and without them, the game would be no more fun than simming through career mode on a console game. Of course, this requires approaching this type of game from the right perspective and an understanding that it doesn't fall back onto the increasingly prevalent "press the button 1000 times, get a piece of cheese" template of many contemporary games. In my case, that challenge and unpredictability is what keeps me coming back to the game, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the two games I've played most in the past few months are Football Manager and Faster Than Light.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've already explained myself.

What did you change?

I added "work ball into box" to all 3 of my tactics, and I stopped using OIs altogether. It kind of lead me to believe that whatever behavior "work ball into box" produces should probably be the default. Without it you get a lot of very hopeful efforts from outside the box, even from top players, and you frequently end up with unrealistic shot totals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I added "work ball into box" to all 3 of my tactics, and I stopped using OIs altogether. It kind of lead me to believe that whatever behavior "work ball into box" produces should probably be the default. Without it you get a lot of very hopeful efforts from outside the box, even from top players, and you frequently end up with unrealistic shot totals.

Lower tempo works better for that imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love how hard the game is to the point I'll stop playing it, convince myself that I can do it start again and experience the same rage. I am addicted- yes you can improve your odds but no amount of improving odds changes the fact when your version of Lionel Messi decides to miss 2 penalties and another CCC in a semi final of the CCL and you are left with the hollow lost month of the season where you are playing for nothing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sometimes the ME seems to be trying a little bit TOO hard in order to get to the projected result, which is what causes me most of the frustration nowadays.

Especially "upsets" when playing with smaller teams, they are absolutely the worst. It's come to the point where when I'm playing against a smaller team and I start the game with a woodwork, my first reaction is "here we go...".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The ME doesn't decide the result first.

Ye, the loading at the start of the match and the reloads after subs, tactic changes, etc, etc for both sides do, from what I recall.

Then the ME is tasked with representing that. But it is also tasked with representing your tactic set up. And sometime the result comes into direct conflict with the quality of the players difference and the tactic's aggressiveness and has to produce extremities in order to reach the result. (many CCC missing, many woodworks, defenders picking their nose even though they are the cream of the crop, etc)

If I'm not mistaken that is, but that's what my memory recollects from some posts a couple years ago.

A couple woodworks within the first 20 minutes shows that I'd better start messing around just to cause reloads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ye, the loading at the start of the match and the reloads after subs, tactic changes, etc, etc for both sides do, from what I recall.

Then the ME is tasked with representing that. But it is also tasked with representing your tactic set up. And sometime the result comes into direct conflict with the quality of the players difference and the tactic's aggressiveness and has to produce extremities in order to reach the result. (many CCC missing, many woodworks, defenders picking their nose even though they are the cream of the crop, etc)

If I'm not mistaken that is, but that's what my memory recollects from some posts a couple years ago.

A couple woodworks within the first 20 minutes shows that I'd better start messing around just to cause reloads.

It does reload every time you make a change. The ME calculates every action and decision on the pitch, 16 times a second IIRC. Whatever the score at the end of the match, that's it. The ME doesn't care about the score. That's why balancing it is incredibly complex. That's why we see certain divisions with slightly higher/lower than real life figures for goals, woodwork hits, number of passes etc.

It's not as easy as telling the ME the average should be 2.71 goals per game and you hit a mark where it's now impossible to score because you're going to drive the average up. I know it can feel that way, but it really isn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It does reload every time you make a change. The ME calculates every action and decision on the pitch, 16 times a second IIRC. Whatever the score at the end of the match, that's it. The ME doesn't care about the score. That's why balancing it is incredibly complex. That's why we see certain divisions with slightly higher/lower than real life figures for goals, woodwork hits, number of passes etc.

It's not as easy as telling the ME the average should be 2.71 goals per game and you hit a mark where it's now impossible to score because you're going to drive the average up. I know it can feel that way, but it really isn't.

And I agree thoroughly with that conclusion.

But sometimes is just "ARGH" infuriating. Especially on those "low team upsets". (I still believe they are a bit overtuned ever since FM13.)

But as long as the ME keeps on improving every year I'm fine, we should see the weird parts worked out eventually.

After all, I'm obliged to give SI some slack this year, since they allowed scouts to be assigned to a specific country on a roam duty. That was kinda the best change ever for the way I play the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And I agree thoroughly with that conclusion.

But sometimes is just "ARGH" infuriating. Especially on those "low team upsets". (I still believe they are a bit overtuned ever since FM13.)

I blame the older FMs for this. We used to be able to get away with a lot, tactically speaking, in the past. The AI is getting better every year, whereas most of us probably aren't.

I had my moment at the end of FM13. I needed to sharoen up. I didn't have a tactics forum to go get answers, so started to pay attention to how real life teams play and I also started to watch matches in full on FM. Watching matches in full helped a lot and I was able to see the opposition sit back or attack. I was able to see why my tactic was failing - because my striker had little support and my right winger was all on his own when he got the ball, for example.

From only being able to use one formation, because I somehow figures out roles that would work for it, I can now successfully build a tactic from any formation because I understand the basics of how tactics "work". Someone drops deep to pull a defender, someone else charges into that gap - movement between the lines. That sort of thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I somehow utterly destroyed Bayern 5-0 in the 2016 CL final, so it's important to remember that crazy-seeming upsets don't just happen to the player. The AI experiences them as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ye, the loading at the start of the match and the reloads after subs, tactic changes, etc, etc for both sides do, from what I recall.

Then the ME is tasked with representing that. But it is also tasked with representing your tactic set up. And sometime the result comes into direct conflict with the quality of the players difference and the tactic's aggressiveness and has to produce extremities in order to reach the result. (many CCC missing, many woodworks, defenders picking their nose even though they are the cream of the crop, etc)

I don't think you've picked up on what HUNT3R has said.

Just for clarity the ME does not in any way calculate the final score then "work towards it". It takes the inputs from both teams and calculates what happens on the pitch second by second making several calculations for each in game second. This includes the movement of every player, the decisions of every player, the ball movement, the referee & linesmens decisions, every pass, every tackle, every shot second by second.

If a goal is scored it is because the calculations have led to a goal being scored and not because the ME is working towards a predecided final score.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the problem in most cases is that players "rush" FM too much. I always watch extended and tweak my tactics to try to tip it in my favor. Most of my friends have stopped playing FM because they only watch key incidents and never change the setup. I guess you just need to be a special type of person to succeed in FM. Maybe like a "special one"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had one of these moments yesterday (which ended in a rage quit lol). Absolutely smashed Sunderland, creating chance after chance only for my players to miss a sitter or the keeper to turn in to a ninja. As you said, sometimes it can just get to much and make you not want to play the game for a bit.

I've said all along, at times the game can show poor performances and poor form, poorly. I'll use my game yesterday as an example. Now i'm not one for taking loss and draws and being unhappy (after all, one of my saves i'm in a relegation battle) but, i like to be able to come away knowing why it happened or being able to put it down to a bit of luck. In the game yesterday my team played well, defended well, and created loads of chances BUT all ratings were terrible and despite making a number of clear cut chances, my world class players couldn't put any of them away (and we're talking around 9 or 10 good chances). The kick in the teeth is then when the opponent scores from their first shot, which comes from a corner where a player walks away from their marker (who decides to run away for some reason) and shoots with a near post, spinning, volley.

Now that's what happened, and judging by the ratings ect, my team played poor. Simple fact, they didn't, they played well. Now i put this down to the way the game shows poor form/performances. What i would prefer to see is my team genuinely struggle to create chances, maybe give away a few sloppy passes and if/when my team creates an opportunity it's missed or the keeper makes a good save.

With that happening, you can look at it and understand what happened, you'll probably still be annoyed but it generally happens in football and it'd make it much easier to accept and continue to enjoy the game.

I don't think this is a massive problem for games against bigger teams of similar quality to mine, but it does tend to be the case when you come up against teams of lower quality

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...